Debates of Oct. 29th, 2007

Opposition motion—Federal Spending Power

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Speaker, Liberal, Peter Milliken]

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Speaker, Liberal, Peter Milliken]

(Motion agreed to)

Income Trusts

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present another income trust broken promise petition, from Mr. Neil Leeson of Calgary, Alberta, who remembers that the Prime Minister boasted about his apparent commitment to accountability when he said that the greatest fraud was a promise not kept.

The petitioners remind the Prime Minister that he had promised never to tax income trusts, but he recklessly broke that promise by imposing a 31.5% punitive tax, which in two days wiped out over $25 billion of the hard-earned retirement savings of over 2 million Canadians, particularly seniors.

The petitioners therefore call on the Conservative minority government to admit: first, that the decision to tax income trusts was based on flawed methodology and incorrect assumptions; second, to apologize to those who were unfairly harmed by this broken promise; and, finally, to repeal the punitive 31.5% tax on income trusts.

Age of Consent

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I have a petition from members of my riding and many other Manitobans to raise the age of protection.

The petitioners point out that our children are being pursued by sexual predators. They point out that at present it is legal in Canada for adults to have sexual relations with minors as young as 14 years of age. They say that the Canadian Police Association, many provincial governments and a parliamentary committee report have all called for the age of sexual consent to be raised.

Therefore, there is overwhelming consensus within our society that the age of protection should be raised. Fourteen is too young. They would like to see the age of protection raised to 16 years of age.

Firearms Registry

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my second petition deals with the scrapping of the gun registry. The petitioners, consisting of a lot of members from Manitoba and my riding of Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia and Headingley, point out that the vast majority of violent crimes are committed by unregistered and illegal firearms, that the long gun registry has cost Canadian taxpayers over $1 billion, 500 times the original cost projection, and that the long gun registry unjustly targets law-abiding citizens, farmers, sport shooters and hunters.

The petitioners ask that the long gun registry be scrapped.

Asbestos

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I, too, have a petition with thousands of names of people from all over Canada.

The petitioners remind the government that asbestos is the greatest industrial killer the world has ever known, yet Canada remains one of the largest producers and exporters of asbestos in the world, dumping over 200,000 tonnes per year into third world and developing nations. They say that Canada allows asbestos to be used in our country in building materials, textile products and even children's toys and that it spends millions of dollars subsidizing the asbestos industry and blocking international efforts to curb its use.

Therefore, the petitioners call upon government to ban asbestos in all its forms and institute a just transition program for asbestos workers, end all government subsidies of asbestos in both Canada and abroad and stop blocking international efforts, such as the Rotterdam Convention, designed to protect workers around the world from this terrible carcinogen.

Human Trafficking

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I have a hundreds of names on a petition that people from across Canada have sent in concerning the growing crime of human trafficking on our soil.

The petitioners appeal to our government and Parliament to continue efforts to combat the horrific crime of human trafficking.

Asbestos

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am very proud to stand today in the House to bring forward a petition signed by people from British Columbia, Newfoundland, Saskatchewan, Ontario and Nova Scotia, concerning Canada's shameful record as the number one pedlar of asbestos into the third world.

In light of the shocking article in the Globe and Mail this Saturday by international photographer, Louie Palu, which shows the effects of the Canadian asbestos industry and happens in places like India, it is opportune to bring this before Parliament.

The petitioners call on the government to ban of asbestos in all its forms and institute a just transition program for asbestos workers in those communities affected, end all government subsidies of asbestos, both in Canada and abroad, and stop blocking the international health and safety convention designed to protect workers from asbestos.

As a former asbestos worker, I know the extraordinary length we had to go to protect Canadian workers. Yet workers in the third world have been treated like human trash and we are left with this horrific stain on our reputation.

I am proud to bring this petition forward.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I join with my colleagues in presenting further petitions signed by hundreds of Canadians concerned about the role that Canada continues to play. We believe we cannot underscore and enunciate this message strong enough.

The petitioners call for the three things for which my colleagues have also called: first, ban of asbestos in all its forms and institute a just transition program for asbestos workers and the communities they live in; second, end all government subsidies of asbestos both in Canada and abroad; and last and very important, stop blocking international health and safety conventions designed to protect workers from asbestos, such as the Rotterdam Convention.

Protection needs to go beyond just Canadian workers. Workers everywhere deserve to be protected. The petitioners call for that to be done.

Questions on the Order Paper

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform]

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

[The Speaker, Liberal, Peter Milliken]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending Power

[The Speaker, Liberal, Peter Milliken]

Order, please. When the House was last debating the motion the hon. member for Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup had the floor. He had five minutes left in his remarks and then five minutes for questions and comments. Therefore, I call on the hon. member for Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I did indeed deliver half of my speech before oral question period. Therefore, I should remind the House that the motion is basically asking the federal government to recognize that Quebec should have the right to opt out with no strings attached and with full financial compensation from any federal program, whether existing or not and cost-shared or not, which invades Quebec's areas of jurisdiction.

This wording seems clear. Yet, in this Parliament there are parties which, as the NDP announced this morning, will vote against this motion, whose scope we really wanted to restrict to Quebec, so that, as seems to be the NDP's wish, the federal government can continue to get involved in the jurisdictions of the other Canadian provinces. Such interference goes against the Quebec tradition, regardless of the provincial party in office. Back in 1970, Robert Bourassa, who was a federalist Quebec premier, said:

Quebec continues to believe that ... this ... spending power in areas that come under exclusive provincial jurisdiction ought quite simply not to exist, and the federal government would do well to quite simply renounce it totally.

Therefore, I am quite surprised today to hear the NDP tell us that it voted and presented a motion to allow Quebec to have its own child care program. It is fine that we managed to get it, but why not move forward in the same fashion for all of Quebec's jurisdictions, since this has to be done? We are not talking about federal jurisdictions. We are not asking the federal government to stop getting involved in its own jurisdictions at Quebec's request. We are simply asking that the Quebec government be given the assurance that the federal government will not interfere in its jurisdictions, and that if it does get involved in other provinces' jurisdictions, then that Quebec be fully compensated.

This is not only a matter of principle. What the federal government does in actual practice is often contrary to what Quebec wants to do. It adds something or does things a different way. This can be seen very well in the general approach taken by the Conservative Party. If its approach to young offender issues is compared with the approach that Quebec has been taking, there is clearly a fundamental difference. When the federal government’s intrusions into areas of provincial jurisdiction are at odds with the objectives that Quebec is pursuing, we are left with a totally ridiculous situation. That is why we introduced this motion today, although we would have preferred not being forced to do so.

If the Canadian Prime Minister had kept his commitment to eliminate the spending power, which he made during the election campaign and mentioned again in the Speech from the Throne, we would not have been compelled to debate this issue. He did it for supply management. That was the only one of the conditions set by the Bloc and desired by Quebec that the federal government met. It has failed to meet Quebec’s demands on the spending power. It is not only sovereignists and independentists who want this but all of Quebec. It is all the parties in Quebec and Quebeckers in general. We are a nation. If the federal government wants to intrude into our jurisdictions, into matters for which Quebec is responsible, it should promise to give Quebec the money with no strings attached.

I call upon all the hon. members from Quebec in this House and especially the Conservatives who said during the election campaign that things would be different with them, that they would make progress and recognize Quebec. Today is the time for some practical action, and that is to support this motion. Tomorrow we will be voting in favour of it. Then we will see where the Conservative members really stand.

I think, unfortunately, that in actual fact they have already become Ottawa’s advocates in their ridings rather than the other way around. They should be defending Quebec’s interests in Ottawa, but instead they defend Ottawa in their ridings. The people will judge them harshly if they continue to conform to the position taken by the Conservative government, which is the traditional approach of federal interference in Quebec’s areas of jurisdiction.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to congratulate my colleague from Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup for his excellent speech.

I have an important question to ask him. I have always heard that the Prime Minister of this Conservative government made an important speech—according to what I was told—on December 19, 2005, in which he promised to limit the federal spending power.

I would like my colleague to tell us what exactly the Conservative Prime Minister promised regarding the federal spending power.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, during the election campaign, the Prime Minister promised that he would eliminate the federal spending power in areas under provincial jurisdiction, and that is what all Quebeckers understood. That is what he said during the campaign.

But the minister was not there during the campaign. We have the statement word for word, and I understand that it may surprise her. The Prime Minister says some things when he is in English Canada and other things when he is in Quebec.

That is why we have to be here in this House. We were elected to contradict these kinds of statements from the government.

When the Prime Minister said that during the campaign, Quebeckers understood that this contentious issue that has been around for 50 or 75 years or even since Quebec has been part of Confederation could finally be resolved.

We are talking here about areas under Quebec's jurisdiction, about our constitutional responsibilities, but we are still expected to get down on our knees to tell the federal government that it can spend in our province but that if it does so, maybe it would want to give us full compensation provided that we put in place an equivalent program. It makes no sense at all.

This is not how Quebec wants to assume its responsibility with regard to areas under its jurisdiction. Quebec wants the elimination of the federal spending power and wants the federal government to stop infringing upon areas under Quebec's jurisdiction. It is asking Conservative members from Quebec in particular to have the courage to stand up and vote in favour of Quebec rather than vote in favour of Canadian federalism against Quebec.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles is currently sitting in this House. When he was elected, he promised shoe industry workers in his constituency that the POWA would be restored.

In the analysis of the spending power, can my colleague tell me whether this cost-shared program can be included, which had been abolished in 1997 but which the Conservatives promised to restore?

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question. The government is adopting the same behaviour on the older workers issue as on the spending power issue. They say things during the election campaign, but when they come into this House they say the opposite.

Until 1995 there was a cost-sharing program between the two governments on this matter. There is still a demand for this, for there are people 55, 58 or 60 years of age who cannot find work. Furthermore, the federal government has put billions of dollars into paying off the debt—$14 billion last year, as of March 31, 2007—and the same amount will be paid again this year. Despite this, the government is not able to find the few million dollars to provide for the dignity of these people. This is unacceptable.

The government is taking the same position on the spending power. The Prime Minister made a commitment which he did not honour in the throne speech, and that is why the Bloc Québécois continues to present the wishes of the Quebec nation. That is why the Conservative members from Quebec must not let themselves be overrun by the federal machinery and the position of the Conservative government, and must stand up in this House and vote in favour of the Bloc Québécois motion, which truly defends the interests of Quebec.

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the real question for my colleagues is this: what is the true rationale for the Bloc Québécois in Ottawa? As I see it, the truth is that our government has delivered for Quebec and will continue to do so.

I wish to advise the House that I will be splitting my time with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance, the hon. member for Macleod.

I am pleased to take part in this debate today on the Bloc Québécois motion to have the spending power eliminated. I want to stress the way that the government is proposing to deal with the issue of use of the federal spending power—not by eliminating it, but by passing legislation to limit its use in areas of exclusive provincial jurisdiction.

Our government believes that if use of the federal spending power is limited, the provinces will be in a better position to meet the needs and requirements of their citizens. The Canadian population will then benefit from better programs and services. This measure will also strengthen our federation—one of the key themes of throne speech.

Our government will be tabling legislation setting limits on the use of the federal spending power in new, shared cost programs in areas of exclusive provincial jurisdiction.

This legislation will allow the provinces and territories to opt out of these new programs, with fair compensation, provided they offer compatible programs.

It was the leader of the Bloc who put the following question to the Prime Minister: “Will the Prime Minister heed this consensus and introduce a bill to limit his spending power to his own areas of jurisdiction?”

The answer is yes.

This is something that has long been a priority for this government. Indeed, it was one of the commitments that Canadians voted for on January 23, 2006, a commitment that our government has now reiterated and a commitment on which we will deliver.

The Government of Canada values an approach to federalism that fully respects provincial jurisdictions and a key element of such an approach involves the limitation, not the elimination, of the federal spending power. In essence, unlike the Bloc, we do not want to eliminate the federal spending power. We want to eliminate the abuse of the federal spending power. Elimination, of course, means separation and we on this side of the House are federalists.

Over the last few decades, many provinces began to feel that the federal government was intruding into exclusive provincial jurisdiction through the use of its spending power distorting the ability of the provinces to provide programs and services that meet the priorities of their own citizens.

Many of these federal spending initiatives in areas of exclusive provincial jurisdiction meant additional financial pressure on the provincial and territorial governments, which forced them to make changes, and not changes for the better, to their priorities as far as taxation and expenditures were concerned, particularly in the area of 50-50 federal-provincial cost-shared initiatives.

Furthermore, while the federal government was using its spending power to dictate policy direction in areas of provincial responsibility, it was also creating risk with the uncertainty that the provinces would be left funding the total cost of the program if the federal government withdrew funding.

Indeed, the federal government often used the federal spending power to entice the provinces into significant long term financial commitments and then left them facing greater budgetary challenges when the federal government reduced its own contribution.

Increased spending in areas mainly under provincial jurisdiction weakened the links that unified our federation and created tensions between the federal government and the provinces and territories when spending was incurred without consultation or sufficient consensus on priorities.

Increased federal spending in areas under provincial responsibility and the insufficient attention given to areas falling clearly under federal jurisdiction has given rise to concerns about unclear accountability.

This lack of clarity has made it more difficult for Canadians to determine which level of government should be required to be accountable for a specific policy or initiative.

In the Speech from the Throne, the government laid out its position clearly: Our government believes that the jurisdiction of each order of government should be respected. With the government's commitment to introduce legislation to place formal limits on the use of federal spending power for new shared cost programs in areas of exclusive provincial jurisdiction, an important step has been taken in federal-provincial relations in this country.

This legislation would allow provinces and territories to opt out with reasonable compensation if they offer compatible programs. Canadians now have a government that keeps its promises and delivers on its priorities. The government's approach to spending power helps define a clearer and more respectful vision of federalism, one rooted in our Constitution, not in the narrow impulse to centralize.

Our approach strikes a balance between the objectives of clarifying roles and responsibilities and maintaining an appropriate and meaningful federal role.

The objective our government has set by renewing its commitment to limit the scope of the federal spending power is indicative of the type of federalism we are determined to practice: a federalism of openness in keeping with the needs and aspirations of Canadians, while at the same time respecting the jurisdiction of our provincial and territorial partners.

Canadians want their governments to agree and to cooperate. They do not want our federation's development to be marked by discord and confrontation. Limiting the federal spending power will lead to a real partnership between the federal and provincial governments. Because of the accountability created by an opt-out provision, federal departments will have to partner with provinces to implement future cost shared programs in areas of provincial jurisdiction.

This will mean that federal officials will have to work harder and more effectively to achieve national objectives and this will serve as an accountability mechanism within our federal system.

The Right Hon. Prime Minister wants Canada's future to be one of vibrant optimism and renewed confidence. The throne speech mapped out that future in a way that inspires and rallies all Canadians. The direction that we want to take our country in reflects their priorities, their hopes and their expectations.

The legislation on the federal spending power that we will introduce will be faithful to that spirit of cooperation, respect and confidence. The future we foresee for Canadians focuses on a federalism of openness and respect with which all Canadians, no matter what region they live in, can identify and look to with confidence.

Such openness has, of course, not been received with the unanimous support of the House. One of the non-negotiable conditions set out by the leader of the Bloc Québécois in exchange for his support of the throne speech concerned the elimination, pure and simple, of the federal spending power. He claimed he was speaking for all Quebec political parties in opposing this power.

In recent days, however, we have seen that not everyone in Quebec politics shares his opinion. I would point out, first of all, that this is not the first time the Bloc Québécois and its leader have been wrong in claiming to be the only ones speaking for Quebeckers. This is clearly not the case. Other parties may perhaps be opposed to certain aspects of federalism, but not to federalism per se. When it comes down to it, what the leader of the Bloc has in mind is not so much elimination of the federal spending power as elimination of federalism itself. The motion before us shows that clearly.

The fact is that the commitment made in the throne speech and the announced legislative measure represent real progress. While some use nothing but words, we will be enacting legislation. As for the Bloc motion, this is once again an obvious attempt to undermine the very foundations of federation.

Our policy on the federal spending power will reflect our desire to strengthen our federation and make it more effective, while fully respecting the Constitution and creating real partnerships with the provinces. The government committed to addressing this issue and we are moving forward on our commitment.

At the same time, the government has concentrated on its national role by reinvesting in core federal responsibilities such as trade, defence, public safety and security, while pursuing our federalism of openness that respects provincial areas of responsibility and recognizing the strength and contribution of each region of this country.

The government will continue to provide leadership in promoting national interests in conjunction with the provinces and territories. It has absolutely no intention to subscribe to the separatist vision of federation the Bloc Québécois is promoting.

Quebeckers, like other Canadians, want their governments to continue working together. We have every intention of staying the course to build a better country and lead this nation to a great future.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the member's speech and have some concerns, because most provinces have great needs in terms of their relationship with the federal government. I was surprised that the minister talked in a very negative way about how some provinces had major concerns with this relationship.

For example, we in New Brunswick and in fact people in most provinces enjoy the fact that socially and with infrastructure and many programs that are generally federally funded we benefit greatly as a result. Therefore, I would like the minister to give us some examples as her speech was very general in nature. What provincial examples can she give us, except for Quebec, which is opposed to this concept? Second, what programs is she thinking of, in terms of agriculture, transportation and infrastructure, that might be in jeopardy?

The minister said that her government had a mandate. The mandate was from 35% of Canadian voters. Maybe she could explain a little about those three ideas: examples of which provinces, examples of which programs might be in jeopardy, and what the mandate really is.

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

Mr. Speaker, of course the concept behind limiting the federal spending power is to do exactly what the member has recognized, which is to create a real partnership with the provinces. Previous Liberal governments spoke about federal-provincial relations and spoke about seeing the provinces as partners, but we know that was not true. Previous Liberal governments imposed their will on the provinces many times without them having any opportunity to fund those programs.

Limiting the federal spending power will make sure that if the federal government wants to create a partnership with the provinces, it will actually have to consult with the provinces. It will be law. The will of the majority of the provinces will be needed to proceed with a national program. That is a good thing for Canada. It is a good thing for Canadians, because all of our provinces represent Canadians from coast to coast to coast, and they will have a say in what matters at the national level. This is exactly what limiting the federal spending power will do.

This is a great thing for the partnership between the federal government and provincial governments and it a great thing for strengthening our federation moving forward.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Conservatives are using a management style that is dangerously close to the social union, which did not become law, because the Government of Quebec refuses to participate. The National Assembly of Quebec unanimously rejected it.

How can the minister say that the Conservatives want to avoid confrontation regarding this situation?

I have one last question for the minister. The Bloc has 66% of Quebec's members. How can she say that it is not representative of the will of Quebeckers?