Debates of Feb. 12th, 2007

The House resumed from December 12 consideration of the motion.

Brain Tumour Surveillance

[Lui Temelkovski, Liberal, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, not only is cancer is an important health issue facing Canadians, it is a crucial issue. Each and every Canadian is somehow touched by this awful disease.

It is one that hits particularly close to home for me. Both of my parents died from cancer. My father Naum was just 60 years old when he passed away and my mother Zorka was 70.

I want to commend the hon. member for Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley for bringing this motion to the floor of the House of Commons. I know that the hon. member has been in the House for a long time and he has always had the best interests of his constituents at heart. I understand that this motion was prompted by actual cases in his Nova Scotia riding. I also know that the member had a cancer scare last year himself. We are certainly all happy that it was caught early. I pass along my best wishes to him for continued excellent health.

In preparing for this debate this morning, I looked at some recent statistics on brain cancer. Each year approximately 10,000 Canadians are diagnosed with a primary or metastatic brain tumour. While no type of cancer is pleasant, brain cancer is particularly devastating, as the brain tumours are located in the individual's centre of thought, emotion and movement. All of our bodily processes start in and emanate from the brain, making the results of brain cancer particularly devastating.

Cancer is a tricky and unpredictable disease. Sometimes it is hard to know what is really going on because statistics and findings seem to change so very often. Often we get contradictory information.

We do know that it is a devastating condition. It is time for us to come together and find a solution. We must do what we can to reduce cancer's effects.

It might be idealistic to think we can eradicate cancer, but let us consider the outstanding achievements of humankind.

We have put people on the moon and we have sent specialized vehicles to Mars that sent back data for analysis. We have instantaneous communication on handheld devices.

What I am saying is that if we can do all of that, then surely to goodness there is more we can do to fight cancer. It is the equalizer and does not discriminate. The hon. member's motion is hopefully a good start down this road.

The Canadian Alliance of Brain Tumour Organizations tells us there is no national mechanism or standard for the collection of both malignant and benign brain tumour data. The alliance has a particular concern that jurisdictions in Canada seem to be reporting only the malignant cases.

We have must have a better understanding of the actual numbers to accurately reflect the impact of this awful disease on Canadians and their families.

At first glance, the motion seems to be self-evident. After all, since we all live in the same country, why would we not share as much information as we can and establish national standards? At times, the realities of the Canadian federation make this a challenge.

Therefore, I am very pleased with the wording of the motion. It calls upon the government to work with its provincial and territorial partners, advocacy groups and other stakeholders to obtain timely and accurate data. We have to work together, not only because health care is a shared jurisdiction, but because we all have a stake in this and a role to play in reducing the incidence and effects of this disease. Perhaps this will be the start of better coordination to come.

There are other things that we can all do as well. There is more that government can do and there is more that we can do as individuals.

Obesity rates are increasing, most worrisomely among children. We must all strive to lead healthier lifestyles, exercising more and eating better. All members have the Canada Food Guide that was distributed to our offices just last week. It is important that Canadians get this nutritional information and take it seriously.

A national pharmaceutical strategy is most important to all Canadians and especially to those living with disease. I fully support such a strategy, as it is part of my belief that we cannot let Canadians down when they need prescription medications and when they most need help.

To me, a national pharmaceutical strategy goes hand in hand with the universal health care system. At the first ministers meeting in September 2004, leaders committed to the development and implementation of the national pharmaceutical strategy. All governments, with important and necessary leadership from the federal government, must continue to work toward this as soon as possible.

I hear from my constituents on this matter. I hear stories of people who are facing debilitating high drug costs. There has to be a better way.

The next point related to the motion on brain cancer is discussion on wait times. It goes without saying that the earlier the cancer is caught and the earlier it is treated, the better it is for the patient, both in terms of quality of life and for prospects for survival.

A wait times guarantee was of course one of the main priorities of the Prime Minister. I am concerned that the government has not yet come through on this important election promise of a wait times guarantee for Canadians.

There have been a couple of piecemeal announcements that serve mostly to make the government appear to be taking action. What is really needed is a comprehensive national plan, with the support of the provinces and territories.

On Friday the health minister met with his provincial and territorial counterparts in Toronto to discuss medical procedure wait times. I recognize that this is not an easy issue to address. I am pleased that all sides met and that everyone is talking, but Canadians want to see results. Why can the minister not provide timelines for this?

I know that the minister said the meeting was a chance to get some of the issues out there and to talk them through, but I do not think it is unreasonable on the part of Canadians to expect some sort of timeline from the minister. It is important to bear in mind that it was his party that made the commitment in the first place. The Conservatives owe it to Canadians to follow through in a timely fashion and to keep them up to date on progress.

I believe we are at the point where there is a real chance for change and for better health care for Canadians from coast to coast to coast.

In September 2004 first ministers came together and decided to tackle the challenges of health care head on. The result was an unprecedented agreement, a $41.3 billion agreement with the provinces and territories to enhance Canada's health care system for the next decade. An agreement on this scale proves that the will is there.

The Prime Minister and the Minister of Health must build on this success. Real potential exists to see further improvements in our health system and to realize such things as wait time guarantees and catastrophic drug coverage.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Bloc Québécois recognizes the dramatic impact cancer has. Each of us has relatives who have been touched by cancer. My father died of cancer. My grandmother and several of my cousins developed breast cancer, which affects many women.

In Quebec, cancer is the leading cause of death, ahead of cardiovascular disease. However, the Bloc Québécois is opposed to the development of a so-called national cancer prevention strategy and uniform guidelines by the federal government. The situation in Quebec is different from the situation in the provinces. As a result, Quebec must be able to take measures tailored to Quebeckers' needs. And that is what Quebec is doing. Since 1998, Quebec has had a cancer control program and the Conseil québécois de la lutte contre le cancer, which shares information, something that this motion in the House calls for. Such measures are already in place in Quebec.

I find it hard to believe that, on February 12, 2007, there is so little knowledge of or respect for Quebec's position that a Conservative member introduced this motion and the Conservative PMO allowed it. This is a blatant example of how the Conservatives talk out of both sides of their mouths. Yet in a speech he gave in Montreal as recently as April 21, 2006, the Prime Minister boasted about open federalism, stating, “Open federalism means respecting areas of provincial jurisdiction, keeping the federal government’s spending power within bounds—”.

In the same vein, the then Minister of Health stated, with reference to guaranteed wait times, that we have to respect provincial jurisdictions, even if it takes a little more time to get things done.

The motion introduced today says the opposite of what the Prime Minister and his Minister of Health said. It is no wonder many Quebeckers distrust the Conservatives and lack confidence in them. They keep talking out of both sides of their mouths.

Do I have to remind the members that health care falls exclusively within the jurisdiction of Quebec and the provinces? Quebec has the necessary expertise and knows how to allocate its resources to fight cancer and other diseases and health problems effectively. Quebec can harmonize its priorities to minimize confusion and waste. Quebec owns and manages the institutions that provide services to citizens. I am referring to hospitals and local community service centres. The Government of Quebec works with other Quebec ministries, including the ministry of health, to promote healthier lifestyles. The Government of Quebec is closest to the people; it can find out what people want and can run campaigns to promote various preventive strategies that will have a broader impact. I am thinking of Quebec's smoking cessation campaign, which has proven its worth year after year. The “Quit to win” challenge was a huge success again in 2006. The campaign's enduring popularity proves that Quebeckers want to take charge of their health. Over the past seven years, over 220,000 people have signed up for the challenge.

Program duplication is expensive. Quebec already has its own policies for cancer prevention, policies that were developed together with health care stakeholders, who are used to the existing framework. Developing nationwide standards and directives would be a costly duplication of what is already in place. Moreover, such encroachment on Quebec's jurisdiction is frustrating and confusing.

As the Bloc Québécois critic for intergovernmental affairs, I would like to remind the House that the fiscal imbalance between the federal government and the provinces is due in part to the federal government's pointless expenditures, especially when it abuses its fiscal power to encroach on Quebec's jurisdiction.

According to an excellent study coordinated by Jacques Léonard and published in January 2004, Health Canada's operating expenses rose by 78% over the previous five years.

I suggest that the current government ensure that such loss of control is corrected. Make sure that such revolting extremes never happen again. Do that instead of interfering in Quebec's business and jurisdiction.

In 1991, the Treasury Board, a major federal department, indicated that such duplication created confusion regarding the responsibilities of each government, contradictory objectives, major coordination costs, a heavy burden on citizens, and even economic distortions. This study estimated that 66% of federal programs duplicated provincial ones. The Bloc opposes the lack of respect toward Quebec's jurisdictions. This lack of respect comes across loud and clear in the motion before us today.

Let us also talk about the costs of the Canada-wide data processing systems. One administrative aspect of this motion brings back bad memories for me. The purpose of this motion is to create standards and directives through data collection, analyses and reports. We certainly hope there will not be another data processing nightmare. We know how scandalously the gun registry exceeded its estimated costs.

We also remember that the minister responsible for social insurance cards had a great deal of difficulty managing the data bank for those cards. At the end of the last century, we witnessed tremendous public displeasure when, among other things, the confidentiality of personal data was threatened by social insurance number cards. The Office of the Auditor General had to get involved.

Furthermore, I am not the only one asking the government to respect Quebec's jurisdictions. In 2005, Premier Jean Charest had this to say about the federal health minister's comments:

The day-to-day management of the health care network and health services delivery is our responsibility. And it would be a good idea for the federal government not to interfere in how we provide health care. In fact it would be a very bad idea for the federal government to stick its nose in how we provide health care services.

In closing, if the federal government is sincere about its desire to diminish the stress caused by cancer, then it should transfer money directly to Quebec and to the provinces so that they can fund their own programs.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the creation of uniform national standards and guidelines for the surveillance of all malignant and benign brain tumours has the potential to improve the quality and completeness of brain tumour registration across Canada.

Complete and accurate data on primary brain tumours will facilitate research into the causes of this disease, which may lead to improved diagnosis and treatment of patients. Currently, published statistics usually include malignant tumours only.

Benign tumours are slow growing and do not invade important structures, while malignant tumours are fast growing and may invade and damage important structures.

Nevertheless, for improved cancer surveillance, it is worthwhile for cancer registries to collect and report standardized information on benign brain tumours since they result in similar symptoms and outcomes as malignant tumours.

Ideally, data collection by cancer registries should include all tumours of the central nervous system.

Cancer registries have been created in each of the provinces and territories but the sources of data and relevant legislation varies.

In addition to provincial-territorial registries, a central Canadian cancer registry is maintained at Statistics Canada that includes selective data from each of the provincial and territorial registries.

Cancer registries serve several purposes by linking available resources of administrative data to obtain information on the number of new cancer cases and corresponding patient follow-up information. This information allows basic surveillance and establishes a platform to provide the additional information needed to develop and evaluate cancer control programs.

Current users of cancer registries include linkages to other administrative databases, such as vital statistics, to further assess potential causes of cancer, such as behavioural risk factors, as well as occupational and environmental exposures.

A total of 2,500 cases and 1,650 deaths from malignant brain and nervous system cancer are expected in 2006 in Canada. The number of brain and nervous system cases registered would be increased by around 40% to 70% if benign cases were included.

Based on the underlying cause reported on death certificates, the number of deaths would be increased by about 30% when benign and uncertain brain tumours are included. Benign cases contribute a substantial proportion of the total burden of brain cancer.

The inclusion of benign brain tumours in standard data collection and the adoption of standard site and histology definitions for tabulating benign brain tumours is needed to incorporate these tumours fully into the Canadian cancer registry and allow comparability of information across registries and internationally.

Including non-malignant brain tumours in the Canadian cancer registry is also needed to allow these tumours to be studied fully, including an evaluation of the trends and the rates of newly diagnosed cases for this type of cancer. It will be necessary to report and analyze data for non-malignant central nervous tumours separately from malignant tumours.

By including data on these two tumour types in the registries, it will be available for use in analytic epidemiology research studies that will help identify factors that influence the risk for developing malignant and non-malignant brain tumours.

Another reason why it is important to include benign brain tumours in registration is that there is a large number of sub-types of brain and nervous system cancer.

The chance of recovery prognosis and choice of treatment depend on the type, grade and location of the tumour and whether cancer cells remain after surgery and/or have spread to other parts of the brain. For example, survival rates are generally higher for benign meningiomas than for malignant meningiomas but the treatment of benign tumours may be limited by their location.

Favourably situated lesions are usually amenable to complete removal by surgery, while other types are more difficult to fully and safely excise.

Reporting of benign brain cancer is expected to increase the total overall number of reported cancer cases by about 1%. There would be some implications for registries to this added reporting, including some modest costs, the need for training and database upgrades and possibly revisions in legislation.

Registries may also need access to additional sources of administrative data to ensure that cases not included in current sources are captured. For example, when cases are not hospitalized shortly after diagnosis, access to other data sources, such as pathology records or physician claims data, becomes more important.

Completeness of reporting is critical for cancer registries. Accurate case counts are necessary to assess the burden of cancer, to guide cancer control program planning, to prioritize the allocation of health resources and to facilitate epidemiological research. This is a particular challenge for registries with access to limited sources of administrative data.

Cancer registry information is continually being enhanced with data relevant to these programs. For example, stage data: the extent of disease at the time of diagnosis was not collected when cancer registration was initiated.

However, currently there is a collaborative initiative between the cancer registries, Statistics Canada and the Public Health Agency of Canada to collect cancer stage data at the time of diagnosis. Stage information is necessary to better describe and evaluate cancer survival and cancer control programs. Other data enhancements are being considered to fill the information gap between diagnosis and death.

In addition to adding cancer stage data to the cancer registries, current priorities for enhanced cancer surveillance under exploration with provinces, territories and cancer stakeholders are the collection of radiation and other treatment data: treatment access, treatment outcome, improved record linkages and consideration of privacy legislation.

These ongoing enhancements of the cancer registries will also benefit the study of both benign and malignant brain tumours. For example, studies have demonstrated that some benign brain cancers transform to malignant tumours. To understand the factors that might contribute to this transformation and whether incidence rates for both malignant and non-malignant tumours are affected, the full spectrum of the disease needs to be included in cancer registries.

In the area of enhanced surveillance of cancer control interventions, it will take some time to see the impact, especially some of those that require primary prevention intervention relatively early in life. That creates a need for the registry to capture another class of indicators of potential success or process measures, that is a measure which is not sufficient in itself to prove the efficacy of the intervention, but one that is on the pathway to effective prevention, such as reduction in smoking prevalence or on the pathway to effective screening, such as reduction in the absolute prevalence of advanced cancer, or on the pathway to effective treatment, such as prolongation of disease free survival.

Knowing more about the risks for brain cancer and its evolution and impact across a lifetime is particularly important because brain cancer is a significant cancer among young adults. In 2003 there were 388 cases diagnosed within the 20 to 44 age group, or close to 20% of brain cancer cases among Canadians aged 20 or older.

Five years after diagnosis, 23% of patients diagnosed with malignant brain tumours during 1995 to 1997 were alive, compared to the expected survival of persons the same age in the Canadian population. Survival for benign tumours is better with a relative survival rate of 70% is to be expected.

Teams can be made up of physicians, neurosurgeons, nurses, pharmacists, radiation oncologists, neuro-oncologists, dietitians, therapists and/or social workers.

It is clear that for Canadian cancer registries to provide the most complete information for brain tumours, data on both benign and malignant tumours needs to be collected. I ask all hon. members to join me in commending the member for introducing the motion and to give it their full support.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to speak to private member's Motion No. 235.

As many of the speakers have noted, it is next to impossible for any of us not to have had personal experience with members of our family being diagnosed with cancer and having to work through those issues. I am no different; my father suffers from it right now. All of us should commend the member for putting forward this motion which starts to at least pay attention to some of the issues that we need to address with respect to this disease. I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in support of this extremely important motion.

Each year in Canada over 200 children and youth under 20 years of age are diagnosed with a malignant brain tumour and nearly 60 die from their disease. Brain tumours are the most common solid tumour in children and youth and account for approximately one-fifth of all cancers diagnosed and 25% of all children's cancer deaths.

Depending on the age of the child and the type of tumour, between 20% and 80% of children or adolescents diagnosed with a brain tumour survive. For all tumour types and ages combined, the survival rate is 67%. Among children or adolescents who survive, the long term health and functioning consequences are serious.

The annual incidence rate of brain tumours in children and adolescents has remained consistent over the past 20 years with an average of 30 cases per million children under 20 years of age. The annual incidence rate of brain tumours is highest in children from zero to seven years of age, which is 35 cases per million children. The rate then drops and stays consistent from older childhood until early adolescence, which is 21 per million. After the age of 18, the incidence of brain tumours declines again.

Brain tumours in children differ significantly from adult brain tumours in their site of origin, histological features, clinical presentation, and tendency to spread early in the disease history to other parts of the nervous system. Brain tumours are nearly 25% more common in boys than in girls. Most childhood brain tumours arise in the supporting cells of the brain.

PNETs arise from undeveloped brain cells, which are primitive nerve cells, and are most common in the cerebrum part of the brain. PNETs are fast growing tumours and are highly malignant. Very often these tumours have spread within the central nervous system even before diagnosis.

Ependymomas arise from the cells that line the internal surfaces of the brain in the cerebral hemispheres. These tumours are most common among younger children and are often benign.

PNET and ependymoma tumours are most commonly found in children under five years of age. From ages five to nine, other types of tumours are more common.

Survival is lowest for infants diagnosed with a brain tumour under a year of age. In particular, only 20% of infants with a PNET are expected to survive. Survival increases with increasing age at diagnosis.

Children one to four years of age have a 59% survival rate, which increases to 64% in children five to nine years of age, 70% in pre-teens 10 to 14 years of age, and 77% in adolescents 15 to 19 years of age. Children and adolescents diagnosed will have the highest survival rate.

The incidence of brain tumours is higher in male children, children exposed to cranial ionizing radiation, and children with specific congenital anomalies such as neurofibromatosis. However, no single risk factor has been identified that accounts for a larger proportion of brain tumours found in children or adolescents.

Initial symptoms of childhood brain tumours include headaches and vomiting. These symptoms are then accompanied by seizures, dizziness, weakness, gait disturbance, and visual problems. Brain tumours are often diagnosed with a CAT scan, an MRI or a PET scan, which is followed by a biopsy for histological typing and confirmation. Steroids are often given as the first line of therapy to help ease the swelling of the brain. If possible, the tumour is then removed by surgical resection. Malignant tumours often require radiation therapy and/or chemotherapy in addition to surgery.

It is estimated that up to 50% of all childhood tumours in the brain are benign, meaning they are slow growing and they rarely spread, in contrast to malignant tumours that are fast growing and invasive.

Some benign brain tumours have well-defined borders so removal is relatively easy. However, when located in a vital area of the brain, a benign tumour can be life threatening.

Some malignant brain tumours can have a benign clinical natural history, meaning they often start as benign and become malignant over time.

Brain tumours, whether malignant or benign, produce clinical effects of similar mechanisms of mass effect, hemorrhage, seizure and edema.

Data on benign brain tumours is not routinely collected by the provincial and territorial cancer registries in Canada. Some registries include benign brain tumours, while others simply do not. The Canadian Cancer Registry does not include data on benign brain tumours as it cannot be consistently collected across the country.

As benign brain tumours are not included in the Canadian Cancer Registry and are only included in some provincial cancer registries, we cannot accurately determine the national incidence or survival rate of children and adolescents diagnosed with a benign brain tumour in Canada in the way that we can for malignant tumours.

This lack of reporting is leading to an underestimation of the burden of brain tumours on Canadians and the Canadian health care system since up to 50% of benign tumours are not included. Though not malignant, benign brain tumours can cause serious disruption in normal function, especially among children whose brains are rapidly developing.

Unlike tumours in other areas of the body, tumours in the brain develop within a confined space where even a small growth can seriously affect normal brain function. The clinical effects of a brain tumour are similar regardless of whether they are benign or malignant due to their location.

In addition to the increased risk of death and/or loss of cognitive and neurological functioning, clinical manifestations of benign brain tumours include developmental delays, endocrine disorders, seizures, visual impairment, an increase in pressure on the brain, severe headaches, vomiting, ataxia and loss of balance.

In contrast to malignant brain tumours, the incidence of benign brain tumours increases with age. They are most common among older adolescents. Benign brain tumours are also more common in girls and adolescents, as opposed to malignant brain tumours that are found more often in boys.

While malignant tumours are most common in the infratentorial region of the brain, which is the bottom portion consisting of the cerebellum and brain stem, benign brain tumours are most common in the sellar region, a depression of the bone at the base of the skull.

The primary treatment for benign brain tumours is surgical resection, which can often be difficult depending on the location of the tumour. Incomplete resection can lead to tumour recurrence. Some children with benign brain tumours also receive cranial radiation.

Cancer therapy often produces adverse long term health outcomes that can manifest in months to years after completion of treatment and are commonly referred to as late effects. Young children in particular are at risk of significant neurological and cognitive sequelae despite the therapy they receive.

Survivors of benign brain tumours are often left with long term disabilities from both the disease and the treatment received.

Our knowledge of these tumours is limited without including them in a national registry such as the Canadian Cancer Registry. We cannot accurately estimate incidence or outcome and therefore, we cannot estimate the burden on Canadians or the Canadian health care system.

Because brain tumours cause disruption in normal function similar to that caused by malignant brain tumours, and because the location of a brain tumour is as important as its behaviour for morbidity and mortality, all cancer registries in the U.S. began to include benign brain tumours in their registries starting in 2004. Canadian provincial and territorial registries should also begin to collect data on benign brain tumours.

Michael Vandendool, a young boy in my daughter's class, is suffering from cancer at 10 years old. The opportunity for us to at least start to repair and begin work on the registry will help all.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to Motion No. 235, which is sponsored by my colleague, the member for Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley. I applaud his efforts on this motion, which I think will help tackle a particularly brutal form of cancer, that being cancer affecting the brain.

Health care issues are very important to Canadians and they should be very important to us. Members of Parliament should reflect on the issues that are of concern to their constituents. Therefore, let me explain why I think this motion on brain tumour statistics should receive the positive affirmation of all members of this House today.

Sometimes the best work is left undone because some of the necessary ingredients are missing. We may not even be aware of what those ingredients are or what information is lacking to answer an intriguing question. This motion addresses the great work of conquering cancer and identifies a vital piece of data that is necessary to achieve that goal.

Cancer is a ceaseless and steady killer in modern society. There are few families who have not been affected by this deadly disease. Research into its eradication has continued for decades now. It is a highly desirable objective and certainly qualifies as a great work but is one which as yet remains unfinished.

In order to beat cancer, researchers need every clue and every opportunity to identify and treat that cancer. That is why it might come as a surprise for many to learn that researchers have so far been denied vital information in the fight to defeat cancer.

Today we are discussing the merits of Motion No. 235. This motion deals with just one form of cancer, cancer of the brain. It addresses how benign brain tumours have not been routinely identified and collected by the provincial and territorial cancer registries and that information is thus not included in the Canadian Cancer Registry.

These tumours have not been routinely collected, not because of any lack of desire to exercise due diligence, but because nobody issued the instructions to do so. It was not done that way yesterday and it still is not being done that way today. This lack of practice remains an oversight in Canada, but an oversight, of course, can easily be corrected. It is just a matter of issuing the necessary order.

These brain tumours are the potential missing ingredients in solving the mystery of brain cancer and in possibly saving thousands of Canadian lives every year.

There are several reasons why data on benign brain tumours should be collected.

First, there is the human dimension. Although all forms of cancer are horrifying in their potential to destroy life, brain cancer, or a malignant brain tumour, is uniquely destructive in that it devours both body and brain. Anyone who has had the profound misfortune of having to watch a loved one afflicted with this disease can attest to its awful progress through the body and the many layers of attendant suffering. While victims lose weight, strength and mobility, they also suffer from memory failure, loss of speech and collapse of cognitive response.

The tragic symptoms are often reminiscent of Alzheimer's disease in that sufferers can no longer remember their wives, their husbands, sons, daughters or friends. They are often unsure of their surroundings and unable to articulate their confusion. For anyone who has had to watch a close friend or relative die of this form of cancer, it is an experience they will carry with them for the rest of their lives and one they would never wish on another person. One is left with a profound anger that such an insidious disease can take a life in such a destructive fashion.

Motion No. 235 aims to provide better tools to strike back at this disease.

At the moment, brain cancer continues to destroy the lives of many Canadians. We can only wish that brain cancer were the rarest of occurrences. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Brain cancer is the most common solid tumour in children and youth. Each year in Canada over 200 children and youth under age 20 are diagnosed with a malignant brain tumour, and nearly 60 of those die from their disease. That is a 30% death rate.

Among those who survive, the long term health and functioning consequences may be serious. The tumour might not kill the patient but could adversely affect the functions of the brain, leaving the survivor alive but mentally afflicted for the rest of his or her life.

Additionally, brain cancer is also significant among young adults. In 2003, 388 cases were diagnosed within the 20 to 44 age group, or close to 20% of brain cancer cases among Canadians aged 20 or older. In total, 2,500 cases and 1,650 deaths from malignant brain and nervous system cancer are expected in 2007. Over 60% of those diagnosed with malignant tumours will die from that disease. This is a shockingly low survival rate and another reason why we need to do all that we can to stop this cancer in its tracks.

The number of brain and nervous system cancer cases would be increased by about 40% to 70%, if benign cases were included. Benign cases contribute a substantial proportion of the total burden of brain cancer.

I also want to refer to the creation of uniform national standards and guidelines for the surveillance of all malignant and benign brain tumours, which have the potential to improve the quality and completeness of brain tumour registration across Canada. The motion today would significantly enhance the quality control of this registration process.

Having this complete and accurate data on primary brain tumours would facilitate research into the causes of this disease, which in turn would lead to improved diagnosis and treatment of patients. It would, for example, help identify factors that influence the risk for developing malignant and non-malignant brain tumours.

Quite simply, we do not know why people get brain cancer. In some cases it appears to be the result of the progression of another kind of cancer. It may be caused by exposure to toxic substances or radiation. Cancer research has shown an quantifiable relationship between intestinal cancers and diet. It is beyond refutation for decades that smoking causes lung and throat cancer, but what can we do to avoid brain cancer?

One study suggested prolonged exposure to cell phones was a possible reason. Just as people have adapted their lives to avoid other kinds of cancer, I believe we need to do that again. This is another reason why the motion today is so necessary.

Cancer registries serve a very useful purpose by linking available sources of administrative data to obtain information on the number of new cancer cases and to assist in patient follow up. This information allows basic surveillance and establishes a platform to provide the additional information needed to develop and evaluate cancer control programs.

The inclusion of benign brain tumours is needed in registries to allow these tumours to be compared across the country. It should be clear that like so many other issues in the House, the motion today affects more than just Canada and Canadians. It will have a universal impact.

Finally, the motion is highly compatible with the government's agenda to increase collaboration with the provinces and territories in the area of health. It is well aligned with the objective of the Public Health Agency of Canada to create a comprehensive pan-Canadian surveillance system. Accessibility of information is critically important in brain cancer.

I started my speech by stating that a great work can remain unfinished because some component is missing in the building of that great work. I believe we have identified such a component today. The motion before us asks for a simple measure and demands little, except to do the right thing, but this simple change could significantly help researchers to discover more about what causes brain cancer, how we can all avoid and how it can be more successfully treated.

For the thousands of Canadian this year alone, who could potentially fall victim to this disease, the motion is critically important. Who knows how many lives may be saved due to the simple resolve of Parliament to make a necessary change?

I urge my colleagues on both sides of the House to support the motion.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the creation of uniform national standards and guidelines for the surveillance of all malignant and benign brain tumours has the potential to improve the quality and completeness of brain tumour registration across Canada. Complete and accurate data on preliminary brain tumours would facilitate research into the causes of this disease, which may lead to improved diagnosis and treatment of patients.

Currently published statistics usually include malignant tumours. Benign tumours are slower growing and do not invade important structures, while malignant tumours are fast growing and may invade and damage important structures. Nevertheless, for improved cancer surveillance, it is worthwhile for cancer registries to collect and report standardized information on benign brain tumours since they result in similar systems and outcomes as malignant tumours. Ideally, data collected by cancer registries should include all tumours of the central nervous system.

Cancer registries have been created in each of the provinces and territories, but the sources of data and relevant legislation varies. In addition to provincial, territorial registries, there is a central Canadian cancer registry maintained at Statistics Canada, which includes selected data from each of the provincial and territorial registries.

Cancer registries serve several purposes by linking available sources of administrative data to obtain information on the number of new cases and corresponding patient follow-up information. This information allows basic surveillance and establishes a platform to provide the additional information needed to develop an evaluate cancer control programs.

Current uses for cancer registries include linkages to other administrative databases such as vital statistics and further assesses potential causes of cancer such as behavioural risk factors as well as occupational and environmental exposures.

A total of 2,500 cases and 1,650 deaths in Canada from malignant brain and nervous system cancers were expected in 2006 The number of brain and nervous system cases registered would be increased by around 40% to 70% if benign cases were included. Based on underlying causes reported on death certificates, the number of deaths would be increased by about 30% when benign and uncertain brain tumours were included.

Benign cases contribute a substantial proportion of the total burden of brain cancer. The inclusion of benign brain tumours in standard data collection and the adoption of standard site and historical definitions for tabulating benign brain tumours is needed to incorporate these tumours fully into the Canadian cancer registry and allow comparability of information across registries and internationally.

Including non-malignant brain tumours in the Canadian cancer registry is also needed to allow these tumours to be studied fully, including an evaluation of the trends in the rates of newly diagnosed cases for this type of cancer.

It will be necessary to report and analyze data for non-malignant central nervous system tumours separately from malignant tumours. By including data on these two tumour types in the registries, it will be available for use in analytic epidemiological research studies that will help identify factors that influence the risk for developing malignant and non-malignant tumours.

Another reason why it is important to include benign brain tumours in registration is that there is a large number of sub-types of brain and nervous system cancers. The chance of recovering or prognosis and the choice of treatment depend on the type, grade and location of the tumour and whether the cancer cells remain after surgery and/or have spread to other parts of the brain. For example, survival rates are generally higher for benign meningiomas than for malignant meningiomas, but the treatment of benign tumours may be limited by their location. Favourably situated lesions are usually amenable to complete removal by surgery, while other types are more difficult to fully and safely excise.

Reporting of benign brain cancer is expected to increase the total overall number of reported cancer cases by about 1%. There would be some implications for the registry to this added reporting, including some modest costs, the need for training and database upgrades and possibly revisions in legislation.

Registries may also need access to additional sources of administrative data to ensure that cases not included in the current source are captured. For example, where cases are not hospitalized shortly after diagnosis, access to other data sources, such as pathology records or physician claims data, becomes more important.

Completeness of reporting is critical for cancer registries. Accurate case counts are necessary to assess the burden of cancer, to guide cancer control program planning, to prioritize the allocation of health resources and to facilitate epidemiologic research. This is a particular challenge for registries with access to limited sources of administrative data.

Cancer registry information is continually being enhanced with data relevant to these programs. For example, stage data, the extent of the disease at the time of diagnosis, was not collected when cancer registration was initiated.

However, currently there are collaborative initiatives among the cancer registries, Statistics Canada and the Public Health Agency of Canada to collect cancer stage data at the time of diagnosis. Stage information is necessary to better describe and evaluate cancer survival and cancer control programs. Other data enhancements are being considered to fill the information gap between diagnosis and death.

In addition to adding cancer stage data to the cancer registries, current priorities for enhanced cancer surveillance under exploration with provinces, territories and cancer stakeholders are the collection of radiation and other treatment data, treatment access, treatment outcome, improved record linkages and consideration of privacy legislation.

These ongoing enhancements of the cancer registries will also benefit the study of both benign and malignant brain tumours.

Knowing more about the risks for brain cancer and its evaluation and impact across a lifetime is particularly important because brain cancer is a significant cancer among young adults. In 2003, 388 cases were diagnosed within the 20 to 44 age group, or close to 20% of brain cancer cases among Canadians aged 20 and older. I can attest to those age groups because my brother died of an astrocytoma, which is a malignant brain cancer.

The Brain Tumour Foundation of Canada has developed a patient resource handbook, directed to patients, family members, caregivers and other individuals who have been affected by brain tumours.

It is clear that for Canadian cancer registries to provide the most complete information for brain tumours, data on both benign and malignant tumours needs to be collected. I ask members to join with me in commending the member for introducing the motion and giving it the support of the House.

[Bill Casey, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I first want to acknowledge the great comments that speakers on all sides of the House have made and the amazing personal experiences that so many have had.

The first speaker was the member for Oak Ridges—Markham who spoke of his personal experience. Almost every speaker, including the speaker in the last hour of debate, the member for Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, spoke of their experience. It has certainly been a moving debate for all of us, really, and I appreciate all the comments and all the support.

The private member's motion started from the experience of two young boys in my riding. The whole purpose of the motion is to establish uniform and complete brain tumour records. It came from the parents of these two young boys.

One boy was Matthew MacDonald. He was diagnosed at age 11. He passed away from his brain tumour at age 14, but everybody who knew Matthew said he was an inspiration. He was designated an IWK hero at the Izaak Walton Killam Hospital. I am sorry I did not get to meet Matthew, but he sounds like he was quite a boy.

The second young boy in my riding was Brandon Dempsey. He was diagnosed at age four. He has had three brain tumour operations, chemotherapy and radiation. He is now 12 years old. He is in grade 7, and he has an 88% average, which is better than I ever did.

They are both inspirations as are their parents. I want to acknowledge their parents because they have worked tirelessly and campaigned to no end to increase the research availability and the information available on this subject. I want to commend Allison and Wanda MacDonald, the parents of Matthew, and Jennifer and Alan Dempsey, the parents of Brandon. It is only because of them that we are here today.

I also want to thank the Minister of Health for his support in this as well as the parliamentary secretary, and all the members of the Liberal Party, the Conservative Party and the NDP who have given their support to the motion to establish simple, consistent and complete records for brain tumour registry.

I want to thank the Prime Minister. We had our first hour of debate on this on December 12, and I knew that Brandon Dempsey would be here for that hour today. I asked the Prime Minister if he would take a moment to shake Brandon's hand as he left the lobby and the Prime Minister said he would be glad to do so. I really appreciated that.

Then a little while later the Prime Minister's Office called me and said that the Prime Minister wanted to talk to Brandon about his brain tumour and could I bring Brandon and his mother Jennifer up to the office. I was more than glad to do that. We went up and sat there and the Prime Minister and Brandon talked about his brain tumour. They talked about the effect of his operations. They talked about the private member's motion and what it could do. Then they talked about important things like baseball and hockey. It was really fascinating to see them match wits about hockey and I have to say that the Prime Minister, although Brandon knew a lot about hockey, held his own and he did us proud. It was a great experience for me, certainly a highlight of Brandon's experience, and made me proud to be a Conservative member of Parliament.

I want to thank the doctors and the hospital officials who have contacted us from all over Canada. I want to name them all, but I do not have time. However, I want to mention one. I mentioned some of them last time. I want to mention Dr. Rolando del Maestro. Mr. Speaker, you and I just looked at the book. It is an incredible book that the doctor wrote. He sent it to me with a note in it, talking about how Motion No. 235 could help brain tumour patients. I appreciated that so much. I was talking to somebody this morning who knows Dr. del Maestro. I was told that Dr. del Maestro just performs miracles for people who come in to see him with no hope.

I want to thank the victims of brain tumours. We had hundreds of letters from victims. I cannot read them all. I read some in the last hour, but I want to read one from Irona Fraser. Irona Frasier is a great grandmother. She is a victim of a brain tumour. She has had a brain tumour for 19 years. It is inoperable. She wrote:

--I consider myself lucky. I have to pray that your Motion No. 235 will pass in the House of Commons in February.

She gets to the crux of it. She says it better than almost any one of us have said it here today:

Several relatives in my family have suffered different types of brain tumours. It makes you wonder why this is. If they would take national standards across the country, I feel that this would help answer some of these questions.

If the motion passes and we achieve the goals we hope we will achieve, we will establish national standards, and we will find out why Irona and some of her relatives have this affliction. However, I thank her very much for her letter and for her support. I appreciate it very much.

We have had an impact on many countries all over the world, even as far away as Tanzania. We have had emails from people whose children have been victims of brain tumours. They saw this on braintumour.ca. It has been an incredible experience for us and I am glad to have participated in this experience.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

It being 12:04 p.m., the time for debate has expired.

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And five or more members having risen.

Pursuant to Standing Order 93, division stands deferred until Wednesday, February 14, 2007, immediately before the time provided for private members' business.

The House resumed from February 9 consideration of the motion.

Anti-terrorism Act

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to contribute to the debate on the government's motion to extend for a further three years sections 83.28 to 83.3 of the Criminal Code, which is now part of the Anti-terrorism Act passed by Parliament following the terrible events of September 11, 2001. The events of that day will be forever indelibly stamped into the memories of many Canadians because they watched helplessly as terrorists, using commercial aircraft, deliberately ploughed into the World Trade Center killing hundreds of unsuspecting innocent people.

The Anti-terrorism Act was created after the September 11, 2001 tragedy to meet the United Nations requirements pursuant to the international convention of the suppression of terrorism bombings and the international convention of the financing of terrorism.

In the aftermath of such a tragedy, fear gripped the world. Fear gripped Canada as a nation, the public and its leaders, including the United Nations. As members who have spoken before me have said, Canada, along with other member states around the world, abided by the time limitations imposed by the United Nations in resolution 1373 dated September 28, 2001 requiring member states to adopt anti-terrorism legislation and policies within 90 days.

The obvious end result was to protect our countries and citizens against further acts of terrorism. If that protection meant that citizens might lose some of their rights, it was at that time a small price to pay for that type of security governments began to implement. Polls conducted during that period showed that Canadians were quite happy to sacrifice some of those rights for safety and security.

The Liberal government at that time followed constraints imposed by the UN under the prevailing circumstances and the air of deterrence that existed during that period. Do not misunderstand me. It is not my intent to say that those acts of deterrence may not exist today and that the climate is any different now than it was in 2001. We now live in a world of hyper-surveillance and constant threats to the individual safety and security of our citizens and even leaders. This does not mean that the human rights of our citizens must be taken away with impunity. It is important for us to shift our focus to more preventative intelligence and action.

Our country's law enforcement personnel have been doing an admirable job and they have not had to resort to the heavy-handed use of sections 83.28 to 83.3 of the Criminal Code in the last five years.

Mr. Speaker, in solidarity with my Liberal Party colleagues, I will vote against the government motion to maintain sections 83.28 and 83.3 of the Criminal Code, because not only were these sections not used in the five years they were in force, but our Criminal Code gives our legislation more than enough power to protect the people of Canada against real or imagined acts of terrorism. I am referring here to section 494. Consequently, these sections should cease to exist within the Anti-terrorism Act.

In the meantime, like my colleagues, I await the final report of the Subcommittee on the Review of the Anti-terrorism Act, once it has finished reviewing this extremely complex legislation.

This important legislation was so hastily drafted that it was impossible to conduct the exhaustive review warranted by the complexity of the subject matter. I believe that in 2002, my colleague from Vancouver Quadra called it “a rational, proportional response to the transnational threat of terrorism by suicide bombers”.

Since this legislation received royal assent in 2001, there have been heated, contentious debates not only in the House of Commons, but across the country, involving human rights activists, community representatives and many other organizations.

The Anti-terrorism Act was created to respond to a substantial and emergency need. Although the legislation was necessary and reasonable to protect Canadians against terrorism, concerns have been raised that it violated constitutional rights such as the principle of the presumption of innocence, the principle of freedom of expression, freedom of association, protection against arbitrary detention, and protection against self-incrimination.

These are fundamental provisions enshrined in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and in other international instruments signed by Canada.

Fully aware of these inherent problems, Parliament included in the Anti-terrorism Act section 145, the requirement for a comprehensive review of its provisions and operations three years after it received royal assent. Also section 145, paragraph 2, requires a report containing any statement of changes.

Moreover, sunset clauses already found in the Criminal Code, section 83.32, were added again because of concerns stressed by many human rights activists that the provisions of the Anti-terrorism Act could be used in an inappropriate manner.

Pursuant to the Criminal Code subsection 83.32(1), sections 83.27, dealing with investigating hearings, and 83.3 dealing with preventative arrests, which we are dealing with today:

--cease to apply at the end of the fifteenth sitting day of Parliament after December 31, 2006 unless, before the end of that day, the application of those sections is extended by a resolution--

Subsection 83.32(1) of the Criminal Code says that a motion for the adoption of the resolution cannot be amended.

We in the Liberal caucus at that time, of which I was a part, insisted on these safeguards, so members of Parliament could reflect on their decision at that time of crisis, and at a later time ask the question which I now pose to this House today. Can those contested provisions continue to be used in a free and democratic society? The answer is no.

If I may again borrow the words of my hon. colleague from Vancouver Quadra, with which I fully agree, and with which I am sure my colleagues on both sides of the House will also agree:

All provisions should comply with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms without override by the “notwithstanding” clause 33.

This was stated on January 3, 2002.

I want to remind my colleagues that the pillar on which the charter stands is based on sections 1 and 33. In other words, there should be no limitation to the constitutional right of individuals unless this limitation is justified in a free and democratic society, and the test has been set in the leading case of R. v. Oakes - [1986] 1 S.C.R. 103.

The case goes back some 20 years, but it is still relevant today. According to the decision by the Supreme Court of Canada, and its explanation of a limitation to constitutional rights under the charter, section 1, these may be sustained after two conditions have been met, and I read here from paragraph 70 of R. v. Oakes.

First, the objective of the measure—in this case the legislation—must be pressing and substantial.

Second, the means chosen to implement this measure—the legislative purpose—must be reasonable in a free and democratic society.

In order to fulfill the second requirement, three criteria must be met:

First, the impairment of rights must be rationally connected to the objective of the legislation.

Second, the contested provision should impair as little as possible the guarantees of the Charter.

Third, there must be a proportionality between the effects of the measures and its objectives so that achieving the legislative objective does not supersede impairment of the right.

Although the provisions in question fulfill the first condition, I do not believe they fulfill the second, given that they do not meet any of its criteria.

In the wake of 9/11, events were sufficiently pressing and substantial to limit certain provisions of the Charter of Rights at the time and to affirm Canada's commitment to the safety and security of its citizens.

The Liberal government of the time firmly believed that security measures had to be taken, despite the concerns of individual members of the party, including myself, to the effect that citizens' rights could be infringed. It was exactly for this reason that the sunset clause was instituted enabling us to revisit the provisions of the Act and consequently review the anti-terrorist legislation as a whole.

I continue to believe that the provisions are neither necessary nor reasonable in a free and democratic society.

Very recently, in fact, in its October 2006 interim report, the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security revealed that there has been no recourse to these provisions. Since Criminal Code subsection 83.31(1) obliges the Attorney General of Canada to publish the usage of subsection 83.28(1), investigating hearings, and section 83.3, preventative arrests, not once in the past five years has there been a need to use these sections.

Why, then, does the government feel the need to extend the sunset clause for another three years? What evidence does the government have that the opposition and other members of the House are not privy to that justifies this law being kept on our books?

It is important that the government come clean and inform the House of why it needs to be overzealous in its approach to law and order. We saw recently the efficiency of our law enforcement agencies in the arrest of 17 young men living in and around Toronto who were suspected of possible acts against the state. Maybe my colleagues on that side of the House can tell me if, in the process of carrying out their duties, the police agencies involved felt it was necessary to invoke these sections of the Criminal Code as it applies to terrorism.

Is there something that members on this side of the House should know? If so, I would impress upon the minister responsible for safety and security the need to inform us. If it must be done behind closed doors for security reasons, I am sure we would all understand. In the meantime, I intend to vote against the government's motion to extend the sunset clause, and I call on all members to repeal these sections of the act completely.

At this point in Canada's development as a nation, measures that are perceived, for all intents and purposes, as violations of human rights cannot and must not survive in our society, unless they satisfy the review of which I spoke earlier. In the opinion of the Supreme Court, reviews are reasonable in a free and democratic society.

I cannot think of any measure that is so pressing as to lead this government to extend the life of these instruments.

Canada has met its international obligations in a time of crisis, as outlined by UN resolution 1373 requiring member states to take pre-emptive action, over and beyond what presently exists in our Criminal Code dealing with indictable offences. Our law enforcement personnel have not been constrained, nor have they had reason to resort to using these sections that govern the Anti-terrorism Act in carrying out their investigative work, which has led to arrests of possible terrorists.

Once again, I will be voting against the government motion to extend the application of sections 83.28, 83.29 and 83.3 of the Criminal Code, as they pertain to the Anti-terrorism Act.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as the chair of the subcommittee that has been reviewing the Anti-terrorism Act and one who has spent many hours on this, along with committee members from all sides of the House, I have a question for the hon. member.

The members from the Liberal Party who sat on the subcommittee supported the recommendation to extend the sunset provisions. That recommendation went to the standing committee and, once again, Liberal members on the committee recommended to the House that these sunset provisions be extended. Why the flip-flop now?

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I feel I explained my point of view very clearly in my speech. This is not a flip-flop at all. We each have the right to our own opinions.

My opinion is based on the facts, and it is simple. Since the House voted to include these provisions in the Anti-terrorism Act, the authorities have not seen fit to use them in situations immediately following the horrible tragedy in the United States. Therefore, I do not see why, five years later, we should keep actions and provisions on the books when they go against our very own Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, in the aftermath of the horrific events of 9/11, there was a great deal of confusion. We really did not know what the threat was and what we were dealing with, so these legislative tools were passed and in fact infringed on some of our rights.

I have a question for the member, in that since that time, however, we have put in place these particular tools that infringe on our free and democratic society. Is there any particular reason that we have not used investigative hearings or preventative arrests in the five years since the legislation was first passed?

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his question.

Obviously, it is difficult, if not impossible, for me to answer that question because I am not a member of the RCMP. The RCMP keeps that information closely guarded. Nevertheless, I think the question deserves an answer. We assume that the RCMP is a reasonable institution that takes its work very seriously. If it did not see fit to use these provisions, that is because it saw no need to. I would like to emphasize that there are already laws in place. Such laws are part of this country's Criminal Code. The provisions we are talking about simply duplicate those in the Criminal Code.

[Dave Batters, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to the hon. member. She made the comment that she bases her opinion and the way that she is going to vote on facts, but the hon. member for Leeds—Grenville pointed out that the Liberal members who sit on the committee, and who, I assume, also base their opinions on fact, voted for these provisions to be extended. Is the member saying that Liberal members on the committee did not base their opinions on fact? That is my first question.

Second, some comments from members opposite allude to the fact that perhaps these measures shortly following the tragedies of 9/11 were not constitutional, so is the member saying that the Liberal government at the time was wrong to bring in those provisions? We on this side of the House believe it was the right thing to do and we commend the previous government for doing it. We believe these provisions should be extended and we believe it is still the right thing to do. Was the government wrong then? Are the Liberal members of the committee wrong now?

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, during those terrible events, we were thrust into the situation without anyone asking us our opinion. The planes crashed and we were forced to react. Perhaps the member across was not here when we debated the matter here in this House. It was a lively, yet difficult debate; lively, because many people had opinions and because we were obliged to abide by UN Resolution 1373. We were obliged to do so. However, this Parliament must also respect the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. As I mentioned in my speech—and I hope the member across listened carefully—the Charter contains certain presumptions that we definitely exceeded.

I now think that, at that time—I repeat, at that time, as I said in my speech—it was perhaps what had to be done. We had to react immediately. The day the planes crashed into the World Trade Center, I was in another country. When I saw the images on TV, I thought that a third world war had broken out and that I should perhaps return to Canada immediately. No one knew what would happen next. There were three plane crashes. There could have been a fourth, as well as a number of other tragedies. We therefore had to ensure a quick and firm response. That is what we did.

Several years later, events have shown that we can now look at it again and our reaction can now be much calmer and much more informed. That is what we are now doing.

I never said that we were wrong. I simply said that we reacted to a situation to which we had to respond and that is no longer the case today.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Speaker, given that opposition members cannot ask any intelligent questions about the content of the member's speech, I hope the Conservatives will be able to put some content into their speeches on this topic.

My question is related to the crimes in Toronto that the member talked about, where there were 17 arrests related to terrorism. Could the member specify if she is aware of which sections of the Criminal Code were used for those arrests? Were they effective in that case?

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, unfortunately I do not know the answer but I will certainly find out. I am not a lawyer and I would have to check the facts. However, as I mentioned, given that certain provisions of the Anti-terrorist Act cover sections 83.28 and 83.3 of the Criminal Code of Canada, we can presume that these sections were used. Nevertheless, I will advise the House of any other information as quickly as possible.