House of Commons Hansard #109 of the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was detainees.

Topics

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have said that simply having a provision or section in the Criminal Code that reverses onus in the case of pre-trial bail has been deemed constitutional on many occasions. I have listed several situations where this is true. I therefore cannot see what the Conservative member is driving at with his question. I truly do not understand what he means.

Perhaps someone else could ask me a question and explain what the hon. member means, because I do not understand. I have already said that Criminal Code provisions that reverse onus in the case of pre-trial bail have been deemed to comply with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and that Liberal governments have brought in several of these provisions since Confederation.

Perhaps you will allow the member to ask another question so that he can explain what he means, because I do not understand him. I am confused, and that is something that does not happen often. Yet my colleague is very good at confusing me, both in committee and in this House.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, I listened to some of the answers that were given to specific questions, in particular by the last member, the Liberal lawyer. Bless her little pea picking heart. She just does not get it. She just does not understand exactly what it is that we are getting at.

I am putting it as plain as I can. A person is assaulted. It is traumatic and shocking. There is an arrest. The accused is in jail. The victim is at peace. The police did their job. Then the courts allow bail. How does that make the victim feel?

Do not fear. The judge tells the accused not to go near the victim. That does not mean squat to these criminals. When we are talking about violent offenders using guns and getting released on bail, it creates further trauma in the lives of victims. I really do not see why Liberals have so much difficulty understanding that.

I am extremely proud of the ministers in my party, both past and present, for pushing these kinds of pieces of legislation forward. They heard the message that I heard and that I have been hearing for 13 years: Canadians want us to do something about crime in this country, particularly violent crime. I applaud these people for bringing forward legislation that addresses many people's concerns.

I am pleased to hear that the NDP is supporting this bill, but to say the Conservatives only put it forward for political gains is nonsense. I know that every member in the House today heard the same message in their ridings. Canadians want us to clamp down on crime, particularly those involved with the use of guns. I am proud to be part of an organization that is attempting to do that.

The other thing I want to mention is the omnibus bill. Bloc and NDP members all seemed to insist that in order to do legislation properly there should be more pieces put together to form a big bill and cover all these things. For 13 years the justice committee has been dealing with omnibus bills brought forward by the previous government.

Here is the problem. In some of these omnibus bills there were certain aspects that I kind of liked and that my party was supportive of, but then there were other portions that we did not particularly like. Efforts were made to amend those portions to make them better and then finally we end up with a total package. The omnibus bill then comes before the House and we have to cast a ballot.

Like the old saying goes, if one takes a spoonful of sugar before the medicine goes down, one can swallow the whole idea more easily. I never ever felt good about supporting an omnibus bill that had certain sections in it that I could not support and yet other sections I could.

The biggest example I can think of is the child protection act. Over the years when we worked on that particular piece of legislation, we could never get one aspect right and that was how to deal with child pornography, one of the most evil acts in the country which has grown into a $1 billion industry because we did not do anything about it right from the very beginning. We attempted to, but could not do it because the legislation was concerned about the rights of certain individuals being trampled on, like freedom of expression or freedom of speech.

Then, some judge in a court case decided that child pornography might have some artistic merit. I think we all remember that. Suddenly the police had to take every item of child pornography they managed to confiscate and examine it carefully to make sure it did not have some artistic merit.

We all agreed about this in the House, and even the government thought it was a good idea, so it brought in another bill and tried to get rid of certain wording to make it right so that we could get after this child pornography. The Liberals tried “public good”, but nobody could agree that any child pornography would have any public good. Then they tried another term: “useful purpose”. After much debate, we could not go along with that either, so the omnibus bill had to leave in certain things that left it open to child pornography, such that people who offended others with that material could use some of those excuses to carry on with what has grown into a billion dollar industry today.

I do not feel very good about that, nor should any member of the House who has been here for the last few years. Nor should any member who is here today feel good about that happening. We should have broken up the omnibus bill and dealt with child pornography with legislation that would defeat one of the most evil things that occurs in our society. But we do not do that.

I know that bail has caused a lot of trauma in the lives of a lot of victims simply because the offenders are out again. Violent offenders are released on bail. It happens. My personal belief is that there should be no bail for any violent offender, but as for putting reverse onus on them, I can go along with it.

If the onus is on the individual to explain to me why he should be allowed bail, I will go along with that. I will not go along with this constant letting out on bail of people who have traumatized victims across the country only to traumatize them again because they are free again. It does not matter what kind of court order there is for these people not to go within 1,000 yards, or not to go to that site, or near a school or whatever. That does not matter to these offenders. Getting out is what matters to them.

This bill is an attempt to just bring in another measure of safety to our society, a little more protection. Our Canadian society has demanded a lot of things. We need to adapt to the changing times and the changing crimes going on today. We need to update and enhance our bail regime to reflect our collective denunciation of gun crimes, which I know we all do.

Let us leave the duck hunters alone. Let us leave the deer hunters alone. Let us go after the criminals. Somebody once said to me that we needed to get to the root cause of crime but we did not know where to start, and suddenly, eureka, someone discovered it: the root cause of crime is criminals.

Lo and behold, it is a new discovery: criminals cause crime. What makes that happen? We are not too certain in a lot of cases. We use some things to try to give them an excuse sometimes. We have to quit doing that. We need to address the fact that people in this country have to make choices, and the choices cannot be crime, because if that is the choice, they will not like the results.

Fighting crime includes preventive measures. I consider Bill C-35 part of those measures.

With Bill C-35, those accused of serious offences involving firearms or other regulated weapons will have to justify why they should get bail, and rightfully so. Canadian citizens expect those who pose a significant risk to public safety to be kept behind bars. That is what Canadian citizens expect. They want a criminal justice system that protects them from violent crimes. That has to include an effective bail regime.

This is only a small part of the things we need to do. Yes, I believe in rehabilitation, and I believe in prevention. I believe in getting to the root causes. We must deal with them, but at the same time we have to get a message out there to those who violently attack people with guns, or without, that it is no longer going to be acceptable, because Canadian citizens, who expect to be protected from these people, will be protected. I am pleased to be part of a group of people running this country at the present time who want to do exactly that.

We need new tools to combat crime and to ensure that our streets and our homes are safe. One of those tools is to make it more difficult for a person charged with serious violent crimes to get on bail. Bill C-35 will make that happen.

Bill C-35 will make bail more difficult to obtain for an accused who is charged with the following: a serious crime involving the use of a firearm, possession of a firearm for the purpose of trafficking, firearms smuggling, or with any weapon-related offence allegedly committed while the accused is bound by a weapons prohibitions order.

I ask all members of this House to please support these kinds of measures for the sake of the safety of our communities. Several of our large urban centres are now facing a new brand of criminality. The member from Edmonton who was in the House a few minutes ago made that point about the changes that are happening in his city involving the criminal use or illegal possession of firearms.

Innocent people are being affected by inner city gang violence, random shootings and armed robberies. We only have to go back to Boxing Day, that dreadful day, to remember that. And there are killings in schools. We need to protect Canadians from these threats.

On the recent trends with respect to gun crimes, I want to illustrate the threat that such crimes pose to public safety. According to 2005 statistics on crime, rapes, homicides and attempted murders increased in 2005.

Homicide is the most serious of all criminal acts, including first and second degree murder, manslaughter and infanticide. Following a 13% increase in 2004, the homicide rate increased by a further 4% in 2005. Police services reported a total of 658 homicides in 2005, 34 more than 2004. The rate of two homicides per 100,000 people was the highest since 1996.

The rate of attempted murders also increased by 14% in 2005. There were 772 attempted murders, 100 more than in the previous year. The rise in the number of homicides at the national level was primarily driven by large increases in Ontario, where there were 31 more homicides than in the previous year, and in Alberta, where the number of homicides for 2005 increased by 23.

Even if the overall crime rate was lower in Canada this past year, the crime rate for these violent offences was on the rise and continues to be on the rise.

According to a Statistics Canada 2005 homicide survey, gang related homicides as a percentage of all homicides continue to increase. The percentage of firearm homicides reported as being gang related was 2.1% in 1993, with 13 victims. It was up to 9.1% five years later in 1998, with 51 victims. In the last two years, there was an average of 78 victims each year, representing 13.4% of all firearm homicides.

According to this same report, the number and percentage of handguns used in firearm homicides have continued to increase over the last three decades. In 1974, 76 or 27% of all firearm homicides were committed with handguns. In 1984, 66 or 29% of all firearm homicides were committed by handguns. In 1994, the number increased considerably to 90 incidents, representing 46% of all firearm homicides. In spite of a very significant decrease in overall firearm homicides since the mid-1990s, the number of handgun homicides increased to 112 in 2004, which is 64% of the firearm homicides.

There has been a lot of emphasis in the speeches today with regard to the gun registry. Obviously these figures tell me that it is not the registry that is going to save the day. It is not working. It is causing a lot of grief for duck hunters and law-abiding people, but it does not appear to be causing enough grief for the criminal element.

With respect to firearm robberies, it should be noted that while firearm robberies have declined considerably over the last decades, the portion of handgun robberies has increased. In 2004, 85% of all firearm robberies were committed with handguns. The number of firearm robberies doubled in Nova Scotia between 2003 and 2004. Several metropolitan areas have firearm robbery rates well above the national rate. The rates for 2004 were: in Montreal, 24 per 100,000 population; in Winnipeg, 19.7 per 100,000 population; in Toronto, 18.6 per 100,000 population; and in Vancouver, 17.8 per 100,000 population.

All of these remain much higher than the national rate of 11.8 per 100,000 population. In spite of a downward trend in crime, as they say, it is beginning to skyrocket in other major centres.

Increases have also been noted in the use of handguns in other violent crimes, including firearm crimes such as attempted murder and extortion. The statistics compiled by the homicide squad of the Toronto police service for 2006 reflect these trends. There were 62 murders in Toronto as of November 22, 2006. Of the 46 persons that were arrested, 14 were on bail at the time of the murder and 17 were on court-ordered firearms prohibition orders. Let me repeat that: 14 were on bail at the time of the murder.

Whether we live in a big city such as Toronto or in a rural setting like mine, we all want to feel safe in our homes, on our streets and in our public places.

Communities, as well as participants in the justice system, have reason to be concerned about the release from custody of people involved in gun and gang related crimes. We need to protect Canadians who wish to go about their daily lives without the fear of being the victim of a crime. Most certainly, we need to go about our daily lives without the fear that some person in jail because of a very violent and heinous crime dare be released on bail only to traumatize the residents of that large city or that rural setting. The point is that this is happening far too often.

I applaud my minister for bringing forward legislation that attempts to help make our communities and our society safer. I will fight for that cause for as long I stand in the House of Commons. I never will give up that fight.

I beg all members of the House to hear the Canadian citizens. They are calling for measures to do what this bill would do, which is make our communities safer. Please support the bill.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the member for Wild Rose on his usual excellent speech in the House, particularly for providing the facts as to the problems with gun related crimes in our society today.

For the life of me, I do not understand why there is so much opposition to this. To me, it is a no brainer. Some members of the official opposition have said that they do not object to the reverse onus clause per se. However, they and other members of the opposition would rather have an omnibus bill. The member for Wild Rose spent quite a bit of time one that.

They say that it will violate the charter. We hear this about every bill that is introduced in the House. The minister has indicated this legal people have said that it does not. Only the courts will decide that.

They are grumbling because it will go to a legislative committee as opposed to a standing committee. I do not understand that argument. They have asked what this will cost. That will be revealed in due course, I suppose. However, I assume from that, if it costs too much, we should not do it.

Would the member for Wild Rose respond to the objection on the cost.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, as far as I am concerned, whenever we bring forward legislation to this place to try to make our communities safer, the protection of the public is the number one concern. Will the legislation cause our public to be safer? That is the first question that has to be answered.

The second question that needs to be answered may be will it pass the charter test or it may be what is the cost.

First, do we have the will to create a system that will make our society safer? If so, we will find the money to do that. That is just the nature of the human being. It is the nature of a family man. We will do what it takes to protect our families. If it costs a little extra, we will meet the costs. Priority number one is what we need to do to protect society.

I do not believe for a moment that the charter was invented to hinder justice. I believe the charter is there to protect the rights of people. We cannot allow the costs to make our society safer to be a major concern. The protection of Canadians is the most important thing. In my view, if we keep that in mind, all these things will fall into place.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am always impressed with not just the thought that the hon. member puts into his speeches in the House, but also the great passion that he brings with it.

When the bill was first introduced by the Prime Minister, he was flanked by Jim Stephenson, the father of Christopher Stephenson who was abducted, raped and killed by a man who should not have been in society, quite frankly. He had been convicted on several occasions for significant crimes. I talked to Mr. Stephenson when he was in Peterborough. I know he is a big supporter of this bill and he believes it will protect society.

Has the hon. member had anybody in his riding raise concerns about the bill or is the opposite not true, that everybody who we seem to talk to supports the bill very strongly and the principles on which it stands?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, when I go out into my riding, I guarantee that there will be no objection to the bill. The bill is very popular in my constituency. I believe if every member sitting in the House went into their ridings and asked the same question, they would get big support.

Our job is to deliver what society expects from us. The most elemental duty we have is to protect our people, particularly from crime. Do not let politics interfere with doing one's duty. Do not make rash statements that this is only for political aims. That is nonsense.

I advise very strongly that no one look me in the eye and suggest that I am doing this for political gain. This is not about that. I would never suggest the same to anyone else. If members do not want to do what is right for Canadians, which is our most elemental duty, to protect the people of our country, if they do not want to do what it takes to do that, then they should leave this place and not come back. That is their elemental duty.

Let us get off of this stuff about political purposes, political gains and aims. Let us start concentrating on the victims of our land, who I believe have been overlooked far too long.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listen with interest, as always, to my hon. colleague's speech. I seem to have heard the gist of it repeated a number of times because he is very focused on this issue, and I respect him for that.

We are talking about a bill that would protect citizens from gun crimes and how to best do that. We have had this discussion before. How do we balance public protection and rights. Rights are not something to be discarded or seen as for the weak kneed. Rights are fundamental in our society.

Earlier the member talked about the issue child pornography. Every member in the House, just as the vast majority, or 99% of the people watching, would see this as a very fundamental issue in terms of protection. I do not think that Canadians take that issue lightly.

The member spoke about how inaction by the House had created a billion dollar a year child pornography industry. I do not think those are the numbers in Canada. Also, because of a judge's ruling on some guy's material on whether it was art or pornography, this created a situation where every piece of child pornography had to be reviewed for its artistic merit. That is a rash statement. I simply do not think it is true.

So people back home do not panic, our police services are out there all the time fighting child pornography issues. They know they do not have to worry about whether it has artistic merit. That line of argument is frankly bunk and it is not true.

I am correcting the record and reminding the member that he is impassioned about this issue, but he has to also recognize that every member in the House takes that issue very seriously, just as we take the issue of protecting our citizens seriously.

The question that we are bringing to the House is how to go about that in a system that works, that is deliverable and that does not, at the end of the day, hurt our society.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, this is the problem. The member said that what I said was false. Every police department in the country came to this place. One witness, who testified before many of us, made it loud and clear that because of that court decision, every piece of child pornography had to be examined before charges could be laid. That is a fact.

Why the member does not know that is because I guess he does not care enough about it to check into it. He should take a visit to Toronto and ask the police department.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I have spoken with respect toward that member, but I will not sit here in the House and have him throw over the fact that I do not care about the issue of child pornography, just because he is getting himself worked up. I ask him to retract that, calm himself down and then finishes his response.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, what I said was that he did not care to look into it. I did not say anything else about him. Just like his statement is not true, that they do not have examine it. The member should look into it and he will find he is wrong.

I should be upset for him telling untruths about me.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

Order, please. I do not want either member to get too upset. I just want to resume debate.

The hon. member for Châteauguay—Saint-Constant.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part today in the debate on the second reading of Bill C-35 to amend the Criminal Code to reverse the burden of proof in bail hearings for individuals arrested for having committed firearm-related offences.

Since arriving in this House, I have commented on several government bills pertaining to justice. With regard to this new proposal, I believe that it is essential to put Bill C-35 into context because this bill lacks a solid factual foundation to determine if it will be effective with respect to firearms-related offences.

At present, it is up to the crown to prove that the accused must not be released on bail because he or she represents a danger to society. In the Criminal Code, the burden of proof rests with the accused only in very specific cases.

I would like to provide the context for amendments suggested by Bill C-35. First of all, there is reverse onus at the bail hearing for certain firearms-related offences. The accused will have to prove that he should not be detained prior to his trial. The bill adds two factors that the judge must take into account in making a decision to release the accused or to place him in custody for the duration of criminal proceedings. These two factors are the use of a firearm and an offence that involves a minimum prison term of three years or more.

In this sense, the Conservative government's bill seeks to broaden the existing range of exceptions that reverse onus. As I mentioned earlier, the accused bears the burden of proof for certain, specified offences, such as breach of release conditions, involvement in organized crime, terrorism, trafficking, contraband or drug production.

If this bill passes, it will add to these cases, which we consider serious, another set of exceptions in which people accused of committing a crime with a firearm will have to prove to the judge that they can be released without fear for society. This is very difficult to prove, especially for someone accused of attempted murder, discharging a firearm with intent to wound, sexual assault with a weapon, and so forth.

As I was saying, I have had a chance to study some of the government’s justice bills. Once again, Bill C-35 raises considerable concern because it is of the same ilk as some of the previous ones and falls back on the rhetoric of toughening up the law, instead of looking at crime prevention, in order to give the impression that the government is doing something.

This demagogic approach is apparent in the repeated government gestures in the area of justice. For example, they attack judicial discretion, make lists that fail to deal with the particular realities, and concentrate on repression when there is no scientific basis for it. Here once again, they are attacking the basic principles of our justice system. These gestures make me wonder, therefore, what they are doing and the reasons for this bill.

I would like to focus on two concerns that I think pose a threat to our current legal system. First—and this is something we have already seen in previous bills—Bill C-35 undermines judicial discretion in sentencing. In the British legal tradition, it is incumbent upon the Crown to show that a person cannot be released because of fears for public safety. I do not believe that putting the onus on the individual in the legal system is the right way to proceed or that it affords the opportunities to which everyone is entitled. We know very well that there are already exceptions in very serious cases, but they should not be made the rule.

At present, judges can impose any reasonable conditions they consider appropriate, such as curfews or a prohibition on the consumption of alcohol or drugs. They can attach other conditions as well, such as the need to appear before a law enforcement officer at certain times, remain within a certain geographical jurisdiction, and provide notification of any change of address or employment.

Secondly, there have not been as many studies of release on bail as of other facets of the criminal justice system. We might not have answers to even the simplest of questions, beginning with this one: how many people accused of committing a crime with a firearm are actually released on bail?

With regard to this glaring lack of relevant information, I wonder about a press release issued on November 23, 2006, in which the Prime Minister mentioned that more than 1,000 crimes had been committed with a firearm in Toronto alone. According to his police sources, 40% of these crimes were committed by someone who was on parole, bail, temporary absence or probation. Why does this government mix all the release categories together to justify Bill C-35, when its bill specifically targets people who are on bail? Does the government have any relevant statistics for this particular release category?

I would also like to mention the article in the November 24, 2006, issue of La Presse indicating that even the Montreal police could not say how many crimes involving firearms were committed by repeat offenders.

What is more, according to Tony Doob, a criminologist at the University of Toronto, the statistics in this area do not tell the whole story, because someone could be out on bail as a result of simple theft, a situation Bill C-35 would not address. People accused of offences involving firearms are already faced with something like reverse onus. The expert adds that the question is whether the bill will make it possible to imprison a dangerous person who would not otherwise have been incarcerated.

Speaking of relevant statistics, I will add that there are more people behind bars awaiting trial than people serving sentences. According to Statistics Canada, in 2004, there were 125,871 Canadians in prison awaiting trial, while 83,733 people behind bars were serving court-ordered sentences. I can therefore conclude that the main objective of the bill—to reverse onus in the case of release on bail for all people accused of crimes involving firearms—lacks judgment and clarity.

For all these reasons, I am opposed to Bill C-35, even though there are some exceptions.

The House resumed from February 8 consideration of the motion and of the amendment.

Opposition Motion—Kyoto ProtocolBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

It being 5:30 p.m., pursuant to order made Thursday, February 8, 2007, the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred division on the business of supply.

Call in the members.

Opposition Motion—Kyoto ProtocolBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

The question is on the amendment.

(The House divided on the amendment, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Vote #104

Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

I declare the amendment carried.

The next question is on the main motion as amended. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

The hon. chief government whip on a point of order.

Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Conservative

Jay Hill Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Speaker, I think if you would seek it you would find unanimous consent to apply the results of the vote previously taken to the motion now before the House.

Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

Is there unanimous consent to proceed in this fashion?

Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Vote #105

Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

I declare the motion carried.

The House resumed from February 12 consideration of the motion.

Status of WomenCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

The House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded division on the motion to concur in the third report of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

The hon. chief government whip.

Status of WomenCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

6 p.m.

Conservative

Jay Hill Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Speaker, once again, I think if you would seek it you would find unanimous consent to apply the results of the vote previously taken to this motion as well.