House of Commons Hansard #149 of the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was gasoline.

Topics

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind the Minister of Natural Resources that gasoline prices will increase anyway. It is predicted that the price per litre will rise to at least $2 in the next few years. This means that, under his watch, the price of gas will increase, regardless of Kyoto.

I would also like to remind the Minister of Natural Resources that the Bloc Québécois does not support the Liberal plan. It is, however, in favour of an international coalition in support of Kyoto, to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. There is a world of difference between the two. I would not want us to get bamboozled by other parties, including the Liberal Party. We are quite capable of thinking for ourselves.

Could the minister tell us why he does not believe in the substantial economy that would be generated by the development of green energy sources, and not only biogas, but all renewable energy sources?

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Lunn Conservative Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would point out to the hon. member that the Bloc in fact did vote for Bill C-288, the Liberal environment plan, and the record will show that.

In fact, it is the international community that started this task 10 years ago and started reducing greenhouse gases. When the Liberals were in power, all we saw was hot air. They did nothing. The member would acknowledge that. Those are the facts.

As far as clean energy goes, I thank the member for that comment. That is exactly what we are doing. We have invested $1.5 billion in our ecoenergy renewable initiative for small hydro, biomass, tidal, wind and solar power. This is something that has never been done before by Parliament: bringing all of this renewable energy under one initiative to create incentives to put more on the grid. We are going to put 4,000 megawatts of electricity on the grid, 4,000 megawatts of absolutely clean renewable energy. That is the equivalent of eight coal-fired electricity generation units. That is something that has been done by this government since we have taken office, so it is exactly one of our priorities.

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Brant, Agriculture; the hon. member for Thunder Bay—Rainy River, Foreign Affairs; and the hon. member for Churchill, Aboriginal Affairs.

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Mr. Speaker, I must first inform you that I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Jeanne-Le Ber.

Everywhere in my riding of Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, people are saying that consumers really feel they are being taken for a ride by the oil companies. How is it that the price of gas can jump every Thursday, just before the weekend, only to come back down on Monday, when everyone goes back to work? We must absolutely find out what is going on behind closed doors.

That is also the intention of the Bloc Québécois motion here today. The Bloc presented this motion in order to shed some light on gas prices, which are constantly going up, while no one understands why and we are left to imagine the schemes behind these increases.

The motion reads:

That, in the opinion of the House, the government should move an amendment to the Competition Act so that the Commissioner of Competition have the power to initiate investigations of the price of gas and the role of refining margins in the determination of the said price.

As we all know, the price of gas results from adding the cost of four factors: the price of crude oil, the cost of refining, taxes and the retail margin. The concentration of refining activities during the 1990s caused an increase in prices. These increases are profitable to the oil companies, whose profits continue to grow astronomically. The public therefore has the right to know how these prices are calculated and, above all, what is behind the refining margin.

Prices are skyrocketing. Refining margins are three times too high. Oil companies are making obscene profits. Last week, the price at the pump for regular gas was $1.15, on average, in Quebec City. The average refining margin reached a record high at 23¢. That is three times too high, when we know that a profit of 5¢ to 7¢ is enough for the oil companies to earn a reasonable profit on refining. The price of petroleum products could remain high over the summer, especially since the cost of crude oil continues to rise.

The oil companies pocket the profits. There are six major oil companies in Canada: Imperial Oil, Petro-Canada, Husky Oil, EnCana, Suncor and Shell. These companies had record profits of almost $12 billion in 2006, a 25% increase over 2005 and a 70% increase compared to 2004. Is there collusion? It is impossible to say. However, the five major oil companies supply 90% of the gas sold in Canada and get along so well that they even supply one another.

Therefore the oil sector must be brought into line. The whole economy is threatened by the increase in value of a strategic resource. The Bloc Québécois believes that it is possible to limit, at least in part, price increases for gas and other petroleum products. Given the record profits of oil companies in recent years, there is a transfer of wealth in the order of billions of dollars and that worries us. First, the industry must be regulated to ensure that the middleman does not take advantage of his position or circumstances.

The Bloc Québécois is proposing measures to discipline the industry. First, it proposes to strengthen the Competition Act, which presently has some shortcomings. The Competition Bureau cannot undertake an investigation on its own unless it receives complaints or is requested to do so by the Minister of Industry. The Competition Bureau is severely lacking in powers to undertake a general review of the industry. It cannot summon witnesses or guarantee their protection to get them to talk. It cannot ask for the release of documents. Without these tools, it is almost impossible to prove collusion or any other anti-competitive practices. Even in the case of agreements among competitors, the Competition Bureau bears the burden of proof for the collusion. the Competition Act must be strengthened by giving real investigative powers to the Competition Bureau. At the end of its mandate, the Liberal government tabled Bill C-66, which was based for the most part on a complete plan tabled one month earlier. The bill died on the order paper and the Conservatives did nothing.

To bring the industry into line, a real petroleum monitoring agency must be created.

In its November 2003 report on the price of gas, the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology proposed the creation of a petroleum monitoring agency. It is quite incredible to think that the oil industry supported this initiative and the Conservatives were against it. The Conservatives are even more inflexible than the oil companies when it comes to defending the interests of the oil companies. They hardly need lobbyists, when they have the Conservative government.

To make it look as if it was doing something, the Liberal government—which was no better—set up an Internet site that gave the price of gas in major cities. It was just an Internet site. It did not conduct any study on the oil industry and was unable to recommend any course of action. In other words, it achieved nothing. It takes a real office to monitor this industry.

Oil is making Quebec poorer. We have to stop this bleeding. All the oil Quebec consumes is imported. Every litre it consumes is money out the window that makes the province poorer and the oil industry richer.

In 2006, Quebec imported $13 billion worth of oil, an increase of $7 billion in three years. At the same time, Quebec went from a trade surplus to a $7 billion deficit in 2006, not to mention that the increase in Albertan oil exports made the dollar go up, which hit our manufacturing companies and further emphasized our trade deficit. The increase in the price of oil alone plunged Quebec into a trade deficit. Last year, every Quebecker consumed $1,000 more than he or she produced. Oil is making us poorer.

We have to redistribute resources in order to stop the oil industry from making our society poor. We have to impose a $500 million surcharge on the oil companies' profits. We have to repeal the accelerated capital cost allowance for investments in the oil sands, when the price of crude exceeds a threshold of somewhere between $40 and $50. The government announced this measure in its last budget, but it will not come into effect for another three years.

We have to repeal the changes made to the 2003 natural resources tax system, which allows oil companies to lower their taxes by another $250 million a year. We have to make the oil companies pay for the environmental damage they cause by establishing emissions caps, together with a carbon tax and a permit trading system.

But in the long run, the solution is to reduce our dependence on oil.

Prices of petroleum products have been on the rise for several years. The figures I am going to quote come from the Régie de l'énergie du Québec. The price of crude oil is increasing and today is fluctuating between US$60 and US$62 a barrel. It has gone up 13% since the beginning of the year and 83% since the beginning of 2004. It is even exceeding the level reached in September 2005, when hurricanes in the southern United States pushed the price up to $69 a barrel.

The price of heating oil is also going up. It has averaged 70.7¢ since the beginning of 2007, up more than 10¢ or 20% over two years ago. According to Statistics Canada, roughly 500,000 households in Quebec still heat with oil or another liquid fuel.

The price of gas is rising. Two years ago, in April 2005, a new record was reached in Montreal when the price of regular gas topped $1. Fluctuations aside, gas prices in Quebec are rising steadily.

Until we put measures in place, one by one, to decrease our dependence on oil, we need to clean house and find out who is making unfair profits. The government therefore must move an amendment to the Competition Act so that the Commissioner of Competition has the power to initiate investigations into the price of gas and the role of refining margins in determining gas prices.

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON

Mr. Speaker, first, I congratulate the Minister of Natural Resources. I believe the efforts that he is making over the long term will decrease the demand on oil and carbon based fuels. Not only is that a great way to decrease greenhouse gases, but it is also the only way I can see to decrease the price of fuel. If we do not want the stuff, the price will come down.

Before I ask my question of the member, which has to do with the wording of the motion, the member for Pickering—Scarborough East made some derogatory comments and suggested that he might want to kick my “phthpt” in my riding. I would be more than happy to meet him somewhere to do exactly that.

I am not sure you noticed, Mr. Speaker, that the gallery at the time was filled with young children. I think it shows not only a phenomenal arrogance on the part of the member, but ultimately it shows that in his 10 or 13 years here he has been completely ineffective in solving this problem.

My question is a very sincere one to the member of the Bloc. I was struggling with whether I could support the original motion. Then along came an amendment that asks the government to increase the size of government, create another group, which would create more administrative costs. We have done this six times before.

Could the member explain if there would be any leeway to go back to the original motion because I cannot support increasing the price to taxpayers on one side simply to decrease the price of gas on the other side?

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I will just mention to the hon. member for Cambridge that I did not hear any specific thing the member for Pickering—Scarborough East said because there was quite a lot of noise coming from both sides of the chamber. I encourage members to avoid making that kind of noise so I can hear everything that is said clearly.

The hon. member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert.

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Mr. Speaker, what the Bloc Québécois is asking is that powers be given to the Commissioner of Competition, to the Competition Bureau, to enable them to investigate and find out what is really hiding behind the refining margins.

We know that these margins, these percentage prices, have been growing unduly for years. There is nothing to justify that, neither production costs or new production methods, nor huge wage increases for employees.

It is therefore only natural that, in representing consumers—given that the Bloc Québécois is here to defend the interests of Quebeckers and Quebec consumers—we demand not bureaucracy but rather democracy. There might be costs associated with democracy, but I believe that is perfectly natural.

It is time that the Competition Bureau investigate, get to the bottom of that matter and, indeed, tell all consumers in Quebec and Canada why refining prices have increased as much as they have in recent years, knowing that nothing else can explain such an increase and that oil companies are making huge profits—

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

The hon. member for Western Arctic.

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Mr. Speaker, we have heard from the Conservatives, especially the Minister of Natural Resources, a kind of defeatism here today. The Liberals tried to do this six times and they could not make it happen. They could not examine an industry in Canada and come up with conclusions and directions that we could take to improve the industry so it delivered for the consumer. That is what I hear from the Minister of Natural Resources.

How does my colleague think this attitude of defeatism fits in with the new Conservative government's general demeanour of aggressiveness toward the Liberal Party?

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Mr. Speaker, I do not know if we can talk about this government showing aggressiveness toward the Liberal Party, but I do know that where there is a will, there is a way, as the saying goes.

This government really does not want to move on this issue. It does not want to do anything to lower prices or get to the truth behind oil prices because, as we know, it supports its electoral base in Alberta. And where do we find the major oil companies? They too are based in Alberta.

We must assume that, while this may not be an aggressive government, it is at the very least an opportunistic one.

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to the motion introduced by my Bloc Québécois colleagues. I would like to begin my presentation with a little economics 101. The minister who spoke a little earlier today quoted some so-called great economics experts, telling us that if we were to implement the Kyoto protocol, the price of gas would skyrocket. We saw the Minister of Industry indulge in the same sort of accusations during the last election campaign, when he blamed environmentalists for high gas prices. We saw the Prime Minister and the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities—we have heard from nearly every Conservative—repeat the same old song and dance. Now, they are trying to justify all this with so-called serious economical analyses.

We should have another look at the basics of economic and market concepts. I am surprised to hear remarks of this nature coming from the Conservatives, who are the so-called apostles of the free market and who are supposed to have full confidence in market forces. Today, they are repeating the same old song and dance. Why are they making these awful statements? Because, in economics, there is one basic principle: the law of supply and demand. I remember learning this principle as a child in school, in secondary IV in Quebec, in economics class. It is rather simple. There is the supply of a product and the demand of a product. When the supply of a product increases, prices drop and vice versa. As for demand, if the demand goes down, prices will obviously go up. If demand goes up, the price will drop. Actually, no, it is the other way around. Well, you get the idea.

My point is, the oil companies understand this law of economics very well. This is proven by the fact that, as the demand for petroleum increases in North America and around the world, we see oil companies close refineries in the United States and elsewhere in the world. Clearly, they are doing this in order to reduce the supply and drive prices up, thereby increasing their profits. They have understood this very well. When the time comes to meet the demand, this principle of supply and demand must apply.

If we implement the Kyoto protocol, if we decrease our consumption of energy and oil, if we decrease demand, contrary to what the minister told us today and to what the entire government constantly repeats, prices will not increase. They cannot increase if demand decreases; the opposite will happen.

I was pleased to hear the member for Cambridge confirm this just a few minutes ago when he told us that he believes that the only way to reduce the price is to decrease demand for oil. I find it difficult to understand how he can support a government that refuses to respect the Kyoto protocol whose ultimate objective is to decrease our consumption of and dependence on oil. There is a real problem: supply is too low and, above all, consumption is too high. We are also facing a situation where there is evidently a problem with competition.

Once again, it is somewhat surprising to see the Conservatives put obstacles in the way of those who would like greater transparency and more competition, when they should be advocating for free markets and utter and complete competition. As a result, oil companies now have profit margins—just in refining—of 23¢, whereas most experts say that refining margins of 5¢ to 7¢ would be enough to guarantee reasonable profits.

The factor we are discussing today is oil refining. We know that retailers are not making a fortune. They make just a few cents per litre. Competition among retailers is fierce—there are often three or four at a single intersection.

We also know that at the other end, at the first stage of production involving the crude oil market, prices are hard to control because we have no say in what happens on the world market. Then the oil is shipped here. Once again, we have little control over this factor. However, when it comes to refining, we do have some control over that.

Today, I was surprised to hear the minister answer our questions by saying, “Yes, but the refining margin in the U.S. is now 26¢”. Is knowing that the Americans are being swindled even more than we are supposed to comfort Quebeckers who buy gas and oil? That is not very good news, but obviously, his answer is not satisfactory. We need more than that. Let us be serious. We are talking about 23¢ on one part of the cost of gas. There are taxes, the cost of crude and transportation, and the retailer mark-up, but the problem is with the refining margins.

In Canada, there is a near-monopoly on refining. For example, as my colleague explained earlier, there are six players in all of Canada. Six players controlling an entire market is not a lot. However, at a more local level, all of the oil in the Atlantic provinces is refined by the same company. In Montreal, there are two, and in Ontario, there is a certain number as well.

At the local market level, there are often very few players, perhaps even just one player, and oil companies get along so well that they sell oil to each other depending on their geographic location. It is clear to me that the motion we have introduced in the House today includes the bare minimum we can do to increase competition.

What is the government afraid of? This motion is calling for greater powers of investigation to be given to the Commissioner of Competition. In past reports, the commissioner indicated that he did not have the authority to investigate this matter. On the one hand, he cannot initiate his own investigations and, on the other hand, he does not have the power to compel documents or to compel or protect witnesses. In a word, he does not have the powers necessary to do that kind of work.

The Conservatives claim that there is no problem. If that is so, if there is no collusion and no near-monopoly, why would the government oppose our motion? Our motion would expand the powers of the Commissioner of Competition, which he could use properly. If he conducted investigations and concluded from them that all is well—which I doubt, as do most motorists in Canada—then, the issue would be settled.

The reason the Conservatives oppose this motion is really because they do suspect a problem. They can well imagine that, if the commissioner investigated and had full power to do so, he would bring out to the open a situation that is far from ideal and clearly not to the advantage of consumers.

Naturally, the short term solution is not only that this motion be adopted, but also that the government act on it and give more power to the Competition Bureau, and as soon as possible. In the medium and long term, the Kyoto objectives will have to be met and even exceeded for our consumption of oil to diminish, which in turn will reduce the demand for oil and the pressure on oil prices.

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Mr. Speaker, I wish to acknowledge the member who just spoke.

I was going to raise my comments on a point of order. I want the member for Cambridge to understand that tomorrow morning his constituents will face yet another increase in the price of gasoline by 0.7¢ a litre. I was quite willing to kick this around his riding at any given time and debate it with him on a radio station, if he wishes, as I have done in the past.

I know there are a number of companies, such as the Challenger Motor Freight Inc., who have appeared before our committee. They are going to be badly affected by the government's inability to decide right now to deal with the fundamental need to change the Competition Act, which is exactly what the hon. member from the Bloc Québécois has been proposing.

Tomorrow his community will see a 0.2¢ a litre increase because the wholesale price just went up two-tenths of a cent, which again put us in a situation where we are in fact 3¢ above wholesale prices than in the United States.

I would like to point out to the member that there remain only two refineries in Montreal and that both are controlled by companies whose prices are exactly the same.

I want to point out very clearly, so the hon. member knows, that there is not a single difference in the wholesale price. At 4:00 p.m. the leaders, Ultramar and Petro-Canada, just set their prices. They are identical. That is not an example of competition.

In the United States there are several variance points at which companies set their prices. There is usually a 5¢ to 10¢ a gallon difference. In Canada they are identical. We have no refineries left in Toronto and now we are on the verge of a crisis that is hurting the entire economy.

Would it be possible for the member to name the specific areas of competition that he would like the Commissioner of Competition to examine?

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by thanking my colleague for taking part in this opposition day and for his cooperation on this issue throughout the day.

Clearly, the shortage of refineries and the lack of competition on the market pose a problem. I talked about Montreal, where only two players are left. The situation is worse in Quebec City, where only one player sells oil to everyone.

My colleague is talking about something that all drivers and gas consumers know and see: prices all change at the same time, systematically.

Earlier today, my colleague from Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert spoke about how prices often go up on the Thursday before a three- or four-day holiday weekend.

If there is no collusion, if there truly is competition, then this is strange. We would not expect this to happen in a real market where there is true competition.

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Oshawa Ontario

Conservative

Colin Carrie ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Industry

Mr. Speaker, I have been listening to the speeches from the Bloc and there are so many inaccuracies that I had to rise and speak.

Just like the Liberal members and the NDP members who did not read the budget before they voted against it, obviously the Bloc did not read the Competition Act because in the amendment it is proposing, it is trying to give the Competition Bureau a power that it already has.

I want to clarify this. The members repeatedly have said that the Competition Bureau cannot initiate price fixing inquiries. As a matter of fact it can and it does, and it does so regularly. The bureau has secured numerous convictions for price fixing under the act. Over the last 15 years it has secured over $400 million in fines for price fixing.

The real issue here is about consumers and the Bloc cannot run from its record. Let us talk about the price of gasoline. Again, I would like to read from its own platform. It wants to increase corporate income taxes paid by oil companies to over $500 million. That is half a billion dollars. Who is going to pay for that? I say it is the consumers.

In the Bloc's own platform for the environment, it is supporting Bill C-288. We know that if the Bloc's plan were implemented today, the price of gasoline would be $1.60 to $2.00 per litre.

I think this is the ninth time I have asked this question. Will the Bloc come clean and let the people of Quebec and the people of Canada know that it is in favour of higher prices for gasoline, yes or no?

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is pretty pathetic to see to what point the truth can be denied.

First, I would like to make a few corrections. I did not say that the Competition Bureau does not conduct investigations. The commissioner does a good job when she can and with the means she has available. What she cannot do is force witnesses to appear, require documents to be produced, and conduct investigations herself, without a complaint being made. Those are the facts.

It is simply false to imply that implementing the Kyoto protocol will increase prices. I do not understand why the Conservative government is continuing with its strategy to scare people and tell them it will be a disaster. No one gives in to this kind of crude blackmail. Obviously, if we decrease our—

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Resuming debate. The hon. member for Western Arctic.

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise to speak to this opposition day motion that would put together a rather important plan to give consumers security around the cost of a product that is of course a world market commodity. Crude oil has a limited ability to be refined within Canada and seems to move with the rapidity of lightning in its price range.

We have heard these complaints over and over again. We have seen inaction from the previous government because it had a laissez-faire attitude. Certainly, we would hope better from this government and in a minority government situation we would hope that the majority in the House would have the opportunity to make a difference.

Earlier today I spoke to reporters about the northern prosperity gap faced by working families across the north due to the high cost of living. High gasoline and energy prices are just two things that contribute to the high cost of living that northerners face on a regular basis.

A little over two weeks ago I was back in my home town of Fort Smith, which is the most southern community in the Northwest Territories. It has excellent road access and the price of gasoline was $1.20 a litre. I received a phone call from my daughter last night and she was outraged at the fact that the price of gasoline at the pump had gone to $1.31. This community, located some 800 miles away from the Strathcona refinery in Alberta, had seen a larger increase than most other places.

To me this suggests something about petroleum monitoring agencies. It would be very important for this country to have an agency that could look at not just the price of gasoline in the large cities, but the smaller communities across Canada, in the north and rural Canada, the communities that do not have a plethora of gas stations that perhaps are competitive but have to deal with one or two outlets in their own particular communities.

The situation is that the price of gas goes up 5¢ in Edmonton and nothing has changed in Fort Smith. The cost of transporting the fuel there has not changed. The wages for the person in the gas station have not changed. However, the price in Fort Smith goes up twice as much as it does in Edmonton. This is intolerable in any situation.

People expect that there would be some rationale in the pricing of a product that is delivered to their communities. In Parliament we should certainly look at ways to protect the consumer at all levels of society. I trust that a petroleum monitoring agency would have the opportunity to look at not only the larger picture but at the situations in various regions of the country.

Lower gas prices are something that all northerners want and I suppose all Canadians want as well. The NDP supports the effort to ensure that the day to day fluctuation in the price of gas is not conspiratorially exploited, that it is actually the cost of the product reflected in the price.

Every one of us in the country recognizes that oil is a world market commodity and will rise and fall, and that will cause changes in the price of the retail product. We can all accept that. We can all accept as well the deliberate act of government to ensure that we reduce greenhouse gas emissions through the development of hard targets over the next few years.

Interestingly enough, a poll was done in Alberta and some 70% of Albertans were in favour of hard targets for emission reductions. That speaks well of Albertans who understand the industry and understand the enormous problems that industry will face in the future, but they are not giving up on it. Albertans are not like that. They do not give up on problems. They recognize them and work to solve them, I hope, in the future. The leadership we are hearing from Alberta, though, is far behind the people of Alberta.

Higher gas prices are a symptom of a much larger disease. It will be more and more apparent in Canada as time goes on. Really, to solve the larger problem, we need to look at a national energy strategy in this country. We need to look at how we deal with energy as a whole. We will not get to a situation of reduced emissions for Kyoto without it and we will certainly not control prices and control the economy as far as energy costs go without some kind of nationally recognized strategy with buy-in from all the provinces and territories.

Recently, people in Ontario saw gas prices rise because a fire damaged part of a refinery. The fact that a fire at one refinery results in gas shortages and high prices shows a system for delivering fuel for consumers in trouble. There is no excess capacity and the likelihood of getting more excess capacity is limited.

We need to look at conservation. The primary goal of any national energy strategy today and into the future has to be conservation.

The government has come out with a number of solutions for climate change. One of them was renewable fuels. We are seeing an investment of $2.2 billion over seven years into renewable fuels. It is a great thing for farmers, a great thing for the agricultural industry, but not really a great thing for conservation. Renewable fuels are not part of a conservation cycle. They are part of a demand cycle. They will continue the demand.

The investment of $2.2 billion in conservation practices, in reducing the use of automobiles, the increase in public transit, the ability to change the way we are dealing with the movement of our goods, services and persons across this country is much more toward the conservation side.

In fact, the jury is still out on the ability of renewable fuels to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, their ability to reduce smog in the cities and all these things. That part of the Conservative platform, although interesting and useful in some respects, is really not a conservation strategy and certainly the door is still wide open as to whether it is a useful tool in reducing air pollution or greenhouse gas emissions.

What we have is a situation where we are continuing the consumption orientated economy of this country, and that will not work. We know the world is running out of oil. We know that we are in a finite situation with oil and if we put it on a cost curve, we are rapidly approaching a point where the costs will escalate past many alternatives that are in place.

Where do we go with it? If we continue in the way that the Liberals set out 13 years ago on energy with a laissez-faire system, let the industry decide how much energy will develop, how it will move ahead, we will end up with situations like we have today.

I will use natural gas as an example. It was very interesting to hear at the natural resources committee the other day that the president of the Canadian Gas Association admitted that by 2015 we will be looking at 20% of our supply from liquefied natural gas. This is an individual who represents the sale of natural gas through its distribution system. He is not trying to frighten customers away. He is facing the reality of the situation that we have incurred under the laissez-faire policies of the last 13 years.

The Alliance pipeline was sized to a point where it has forever altered our ability to provide natural gas for our own market. It has also taken away most of the available expansion in the petrochemical industry through the movement of raw gas through Chicago.

These were decisions that were made for the future of the country in the absence of any significant strategy, without understanding the nature of how those decisions would play out in the future.

To think that we would continue this pattern of accepting that industry is going to make the decisions for us about energy, I look at the Mackenzie gas pipeline right now. There is a lot of trouble with that project. It is a $16 billion project. Imperial Oil is saying it is too much money and it looks like it is going to have to go to LNG for the supply. Interestingly enough, Exxon, the parent company is heavily involved with liquefied natural gas in Qatar. We have a situation where one of these multinationals has two conflicting interests on the supply of energy to Canada. Where do we as Canadians sit, with no input, with no direction? We are simply going to allow this to play out as it may.

Every other energy exporting country has taken a stronger nationalist approach than Canada has taken. Every other country engaged in the business of exporting energy being, as the Prime Minister says, part of the energy superpowers of the world, has taken hold of its resources. What we saw in Venezuela recently was a complete state takeover of oil.

Within the national energy strategy there is the conservation and development of renewable energy. We heard the Minister of Natural Resources talk about the great amount of renewable energy that the government has promised. Four thousand megawatts sounds like a lot but it is not really.

The Canadian Wind Energy Association says that there are 100,000 megawatts of wind energy available to the existing grid within distance of the existing transmission system. That is renewable energy. There is hydro power and the opportunities for much more use of solar energy. Our solar energy ability is great.

On biomass, we are facing a crisis in the forests where our product is being downgraded. The bugs and climate change effects are destroying our forests. We need an active forest program. We need to move more heavily into biomass energy.

Part of that would be an east-west energy grid. We need to link this country together so that it works better for renewable energy. There is no way we can operate in isolation as we have province to province in dealing with energy. We need a national strategy. We need to move ahead with this.

We can sit here and talk about reducing greenhouse gas emissions for four years or ten years, but without a national energy strategy that changes the way we use energy, we will not achieve those larger targets that are coming in 10, 15 or 20 years.

This is a good idea, a petroleum monitoring agency, using the Competition Bureau to ensure that Canadians have some trust in what they are doing, but this is only part of the picture. We need a bigger look at this. We need to have an expanded view of the country's energy system. Parliament is the only one that can do it. If we forsake this role, we are forsaking the future of our children and grandchildren.

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

There is certainly no time for a question and an answer, but I will let the member for Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup make a brief comment.

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would simply like to tell the House that I feel it is important to send a message here today to the government, to the effect that a profit of 20¢ a litre for refining is exorbitant for consumers, for the entire industry and the entire Canadian economy when 6¢ is the normal profit margin. In that regard, it is absolutely crucial that we send a clear message.

Can my hon. colleague tell me if, indeed, it is important for the government to decide to take action? It is not a matter of collusion. It is a matter of disciplining a market that is destroying the entire economy of Quebec and Canada.

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

It being 5:15 p.m., it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the business of supply.

The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

All those in favour will please say yea.

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

All those opposed will please say nay.

Opposition motion--Gas PricesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.