House of Commons Hansard #48 of the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was senate.

Topics

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Found in breach.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Found in breach. I take that back, Mr. Speaker, found in breach. I will accept that correction.

Only one party, and now my facts are correct, has been found in breach and that party begins with the letter C, the Conservative Party. One cannot help avoid the impression that this is one of the reasons that the Conservative Party is trying to provoke an early election, so that this and many other scandals, such as the one including the finance minister, will be swept under the carpet in the midst of a general election campaign.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to speak to Bill C-29, especially since this bill is an Act to amend the Canada Elections Act (accountability with respect to loans).

The Canada Elections Act has come into question in recent weeks. It always makes me smile to hear the Conservatives in the House boasting about how they have amended the Canada Elections Act. It is very disturbing, and that is why, when the Conservatives introduce a bill like this one, we have to look at it once, twice, three times, four times and go through it with a fine-tooth comb.

As we speak, more than 60 Conservative members still have not received their rebate from the Chief Electoral Officer. They are the only members of the House who have not been reimbursed for their election expenses since the last campaign. They will try and tell us that everything is fine, but there is a good reason they decided to filibuster in the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. They do not want to be asked about the errors and omissions the Chief Electoral Officer has found. More than 60 members have not been reimbursed for their latest election expenses, including two ministers from Quebec: the Minister of Canadian Heritage, Status of Women and Official Languages and the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

When people—citizens, Quebeckers—read or hear things like this in the media, it does not reflect well on the political elite, particularly seeing as the members of the Bloc Québécois have all been reimbursed and have therefore not been reprimanded by the Chief Electoral Officer. We have to protect that reputation because in the previous Parliament, the Liberals marred politicians' reputation far too often.

Now the Conservatives are making the rest of us look bad. That is what comes of being in power, I suppose. They say that it takes absolute power, but often, as some here know, power can make people crazy, and the Conservatives are verging on it. It is coming. It is getting closer. It started with election spending. They tried to cook the books so they could get more money for the next election campaign. They want to get as much money as possible. They understand how it works, and their actions are based on the premise that the more money one has, the more seats one wins. That is the Conservative way of doing things. The more money you accumulate, the better your chances of coming to power.

We in Quebec are proud that in every election since 1993, we have had a majority, and not thanks to money. We spend as much as the law allows, and not a penny more, because we collect our money $5 at a time. That has always been our way of doing things.

I should point out that Canada adopted its political party financing legislation based on Quebec's, which was brought in by René Lévesque, leader of the Parti Québécois and the sovereignty movement for many years, who cleaned house in Quebec. Canada also cleaned house a few years ago, but some Conservatives got caught yet again, even though they just cleaned house. People have to understand that that's what it means to be a federalist—they have to do everything they can to collect money because that is how elections are won.

Of course we saw that with Option Canada. Maybe, at the time of the last referendum in Quebec, they took money to which they were not entitled. We know that an investigation has revealed that millions of dollars were spent, which was not allowed under the Quebec legislation respecting elections and referendums. But what is done is done. Federalists tell us that what is done is done but that it should not happen the next time. Maybe we should ask the UN to oversee the next referendum in Quebec because it is the only way to stop these people who have no qualms about using public funds to try to win an election.

That is why we have Bill C-29 before us, or should I say before us again. There are three motions in amendment. This bill is the reincarnation of Bill C-54, which was amended by the committee in the previous session. Let us not forget that there was a throne speech. In an attempt to improve their image, the Conservatives presented a new Speech from the Throne. Consequently, certain bills had to be reintroduced, and Bill C-29 is the same as former Bill C-54.

The government is bringing forward three motions to try to counter three amendments made by opposition parties in committee in the last session. I will take the time to explain these three motions. For the Bloc Québécois, two of them are totally unacceptable; there is one however—a minor change—that we will support. It has to be understood that one of these motions deals with expenses, that is the amounts that an individual can contribute to a leadership campaign.

Under the current legislation an individual can contribute $1,000 a year to political parties during a leadership campaign. That amount has been changed to $1,100, but in the legislation it is $1,000. We thought that the bill could contain provisions allowing for annual contributions to a leadership race, as the Canada Elections Act does. The Bloc Québécois enjoys stability, but the other parties in this House often change leaders. We want to give them a chance to raise money for changing their leader instead of for running an election campaign. After the next election, few of these leaders will still be here. I can assure you of that. We are giving them a chance to collect $1,000 a year, pursuant to the current legislation, which, as I was saying, allows individuals to contribute $1,100 a year to election campaigns.

The Conservatives have decided that these contributions can be made once every leadership race instead of once a year. All we are asking for is some logic. We have electoral legislation that allows individual contributions of $1,100 a year. An annual contribution to leadership races should be allowed in order to provide more money for self-promotion and avoid using taxpayer dollars at election time.

This will allow candidates to run their race within their party and to show their true colours. They hide because they do not have the money for a party leadership race. Then, the public discovers them once they come into power and they need taxpayer dollars in order to win the election. That is what the Conservatives do: they try to buy their way in with all sorts of tricks. They must be copying the U.S. model, where we see highly publicized campaigns. Instead of letting us get to know the individuals, prefabricated images are projected in lovely ad campaigns. The candidate, or the leader, is not presented, their image is. That is the new way of doing things. In any event, they will be judged during the next election campaign.

The second motion proposes that a loan become a contribution if it has not been repaid after three years. Obviously, the law does not allow any more time. As was mentioned earlier, the limit is $1,100 a year. Clearly, the law allows loans, but when someone lends another person money, that person must repay the loan at some point. As well, people cannot be allowed to do indirectly what they cannot do directly. We cannot say that we need money, but we need more than $1,100, because we do not have enough friends to give us money. This is often what happens in the other parties. Candidates have enough friends to raise the money they need, but their friends do not have enough money, so the candidates lend themselves money. They take money and lend it to themselves. Once the election campaign is over, these loans have to be repaid.

Candidates cannot use their own money to get elected, because that would be too easy. The Conservatives and Liberals have often used this tactic in recent years to try to get elected. They used their own money to fund their election campaigns. But that is not how things work. After three years, the loan must become a contribution. Because the money has not been repaid, it becomes a contribution, and if that contribution exceeds the $1,100 annual limit—for example, if the loan is for $10,000—then it violates the law. We allowed this minor change.

The last motion proposes that the government reject the amendment introduced by the Bloc Québécois. The government wants to make political parties liable for their candidates' debts. Clearly, if a candidate goes to see his banker because he has no money, but the party does have money, the candidate will be able to fund his election campaign. But if the candidate cannot repay his debts, the party will have to do so.

It makes no sense to adopt this bill in its current form. Candidates must have credibility. If they have to borrow to fund a line of credit until the money comes in, then they should borrow against their own personal assets. That is what Bloc Québécois candidates have always done. We find a way to fund our campaigns, and when we do not have enough money, we take out loans, which we sign for and guarantee ourselves, until we raise enough money. The party does not guarantee our loans, we do. In that way, we may—

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Royal Galipeau

I am sorry but I have to interrupt the member for Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel.

The member for Trois-Rivières has the floor.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate my colleague on his speech.

I am very troubled by the part of the third motion where the government wants to make the party responsible for debts incurred by its candidates. I find that truly unacceptable. In fact, it is as if I went shopping with my credit card and then asked the party to pay the bill. It seems to me that candidates should have enough self-confidence to invest in their own campaign and believe in their ability to win without a party, which is a highly democratic political organization, having to be responsible for debts incurred by anyone who decides to run in an election.

Why a government would propose such a motion is beyond me.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Mr. Speaker, my colleague is quite right.

In any event, the law allows us to spend a maximum amount on our campaign. If we wish to exceed the allowable limit, we have to obtain loans from banks and guarantee the repayment of the campaign debt until we find the money through public funding to be in a position to repay the loan.

If we decide that the party will guarantee the debt, that means that everyone who does not have the requisite credibility to obtain support or financing can become candidates. That changes the way of doing things and the selection of candidates.

Personally, I hope we will find a balance. Quebec's rule is as follows: we have to be able to guarantee the debts incurred in our own election campaign. The legislation states that, after three years, the debt becomes a contribution—both guaranteed debts and loans become contributions. If we wish to obey the law, we have to be able to find the necessary money, have a line of credit and provide our own security for the line of credit, since it is our election campaign. If we decide not to, that means that we no longer need the credibility. What does that tell citizens about the candidate? We have to be able to guarantee the expenses of our own campaign election.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Mr. Speaker, the Conservatives introduced this bill claiming that several Liberal candidates, during the last leadership race, took out large loans in order to circumvent the contribution limits.

In this context, would the Conservative motion to ensure that expenses are repaid by the party solve the problems created by the Liberals during the last leadership race?

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would first like to thank my hon. colleague for his question.

In response I would say that it will not solve them at all. First of all, if it involves a bank loan, a credit analysis must be conducted. I am therefore much more comfortable with a candidate who has to go to a bank to obtain financing for his expenses. Some contributions could come in later to help reduce his or her campaign debts.

If the bank gets fleeced, it is the bank's problem and Liberal candidates would not be able to do business with the banks during the next election campaign.

The other possibility is that an individual loans a candidate some money. In such cases, that individual cannot be reimbursed. However, according to the amendments, the law would be clear: after three years, that loan would become a contribution. Anyone who contributes more than the $1,000 allowed by law would be in violation of the Elections Act and face penalties, including possible imprisonment.

I prefer the existing system, because the loan will automatically become a contribution. If someone advances $100,000 to a candidate who does not pay that money back, and that person says “no problem” and cancels the debt, that means that after three years, if he or she is not paid back, that amount becomes a contribution to the election campaign, which is no longer lawful. That becomes a violation of the Elections Act, punishable by law, including prosecution.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have the pleasure of commenting on this bill. I would first like to remind the House that the Bloc Québécois is in favour of this bill. We have been speaking a great deal about the motions, but we agree completely with the substance of the bill. We believe that it is necessary to regulate loans in order to prevent financing limits from being circumvented.

These limits were established after a long debate with the Bloc Québécois, which wanted to put an end to corporate funding and to limit individual contributions, as Quebec did 30 years ago.

I believe that Quebec, in this regard, can truly provide an important and valuable example. We have a problem with the motions, particularly Motion No. 3.

The government wants to make political parties responsible for the debt incurred by their candidates.

My colleagues spoke about this earlier, but I would like to take it one step further. I believe that adopting this motion would lead to some very significant abuses, to the point that a political party could find itself with a great deal of money in its coffers. That could be the case for some political parties, or at least for one we know.

These political parties could tell their candidates to go into debt, that someone or another could lend them some money and that, in any case, three years later, the party would advance the money. They do not need to feel responsible because the party will pay back the money. That means that the candidates would have a millstone around their necks and that they would be chained to their party. They would not have the freedom to say that they felt responsible for their own election campaign because, in any event, the party will pay for them if they do not repay their debt.

These things can be planned. That is why I am saying that things can go farther than my colleagues have acknowledged. People will be able to plan things and borrow money from multiple sources because the party will pay it back in three years. The party has the money.

The Bloc Québécois finds this way of thinking outrageous. We think that candidates have to have a modicum of freedom in their ridings to get themselves elected democratically by their supporters.

We do not dictate who can run for our party. It is important for candidates chosen by their supporters and by people in their ridings to be responsible for their own election campaigns and the money they spend. As a result, our candidates have much closer ties to their communities and are more connected to the voters in their ridings.

We can pretty much eliminate parachuting people into a riding. Parachuting people in is easy. Some people, a week before the election, have never campaigned. This happened in Quebec in the last election, especially with the Conservatives. There were candidates who had never been involved in politics, not at all. At the last minute, the party found some people and told them not to worry because with the three-year legislation, they would not have to pay back the money they borrowed.

Imagine what being told in advance that the debt will be paid off in three years can do to a candidate's accountability. A party can parachute in any candidate at all. The candidate is not accountable and is not even chosen by supporters. We are well aware—experience has shown—that there were candidates who did not even have supporters.

It is much easier for a party to go into a riding and convince people to run if it promises to pay off their debts later.

This motion is truly unacceptable. The government wants to hold the political parties responsible for their candidate's debts. That is unacceptable and I would say it is bordering on immoral. In our capitalist system every individual is responsible for their own debt. Under the new plan, an individual is no longer responsible for his or her debt, but a third party, an entity, in short, a political party is. The party would become responsible for an individual's debt. That makes absolutely no sense.

What is more, five or six lenders could be identified. They could even come from outside the riding and be reimbursed in three years. See how complicated this becomes? The lender would no longer ask for a guarantee. When the Bloc Québécois candidates borrowed money—at one time we needed to do so, but fortunately that is no longer the case since things are going well—they went to the bank and were responsible for the debt. This is fundamental. It gives candidates the chance to be responsible to the electors and to hold their heads high after the election whether they won or not. They do not owe anyone anything and they will settle their debts.

This necessarily forces people to work together, to collaborate and create a much greater sense of belonging within the riding. A candidate has to work with the people who are there to help. This takes many $1,100 contributions and there are not many people who donate that kind of money. In my riding, there are very few people who give $1,100. As my colleague was saying earlier, we collect donations of $5, $10 or $20 and that is what we use for our election campaign. This creates a democratic link with the people in our riding and that is what really counts. If we no longer have that and can borrow $80,000 in one shot—as we saw a candidate do and then switch parties—without paying it back, this becomes institutionalized and there is no longer any need to pay money back because the party will take care of it. That does not make any sense. It is wrong and we cannot accept it.

The first amendment made in committee makes sense to us since all the contribution limits currently in the Canada Elections Act are annual, except in the case of candidates for party leadership. Contributions should be annual and should not be contributions for a leadership campaign. It is a well-known and perfectly correct old habit that every January, in the new year, people can once again give money to the political parties. Why would it not be the same for leadership campaigns, which do last from one year to the next? This would let anyone who wants to support a candidate give again after the year ends. One year is long enough to assume people would be able to give again.

We think that Motion No. 1 is very important and we want to keep it that way. We are not against the idea of the annual contribution, but against the fact that parties would be responsible for contributions that come from personal loans. This could lead to dishonesty. We could end up with such a law in a few years and we could plan out all the loans taken by a candidate. This is completely unacceptable. We are against this motion and will keep voting against it.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think the member has raised some very interesting points in regard to some of the things that have happened, particularly in the Conservative Party with the loan situation in regard to the member for Mississauga—Streetsville. I think that is a very disturbing situation that has occurred.

In debate we have spent a fair bit of time talking about the filibuster in the procedure and House affairs committee with regard to what is called the in-and-out scam, whereby the Conservative Party transferred moneys to individual candidates and then the candidates would give it back to the party. They then would claim the expense as advertising. As the Chief Electoral Officer has found, the Conservatives in fact are in breach of the Canada Elections Act, it amounts to about $1 million, and it means that they have overspent.

I wonder if the member can tell the House whether, in the Bloc's experience in the procedure and House affairs committee, the government is prepared to stand up and be accountable for what it did and what the Conservative Party in fact was found in breach of with regard to the swapping of money--or it looks like money laundering--in order to get additional advantage for the Conservative Party in a democratic system.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Mr. Speaker, I find it very interesting that my Liberal colleague has raised this point. Indeed, it seems that a piece of legislation can generally be circumvented. That is the case at this time. Although the Canada Elections Act has a relatively rigid framework, we see that it can be circumvented. In any case, some people try to do so.

Instead of allowing more gaps in Bill C-29, we should instead try to make it impossible to take out any money using the Conservative tactic, in other words, by taking money from the central fund to pay for things in the ridings. Greater attention needs to paid to this.

We get the impression that the federal government made the Canada Elections Act more rigid, but now wants it to be relaxed, because it was made a little too strict. The Bloc Québécois believes that the more rigid the legislation, the greater the chances of people being honest.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the hon. member a question about loans. We have heard allegations and we have heard some talk today about loans that were made, loans that were made as a way to circumvent, but loans are a legitimate means of providing funds. However, when loans are not paid back, suddenly they become a disguised contribution.

Now we know that in the past this has been a practice used by certain parties. We will not name those parties. I think everybody knows which party that is. However, I would ask the hon. member this question: why do we not ban loans entirely? How does the member feel about that?

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

6:15 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Mr. Speaker, that is an interesting question, but I do not think loans should be eliminated entirely.

We must bear in mind that some candidates come from areas where they are not popular, but they want to go into politics anyway. They will not necessarily borrow lots of money. Some parties raised very little money and could not even receive rebates from the Chief Electoral Officer.

It is practical for this person to take out a loan in his or her name. If it is not paid back, that individual's credit rating alone would be affected. I think that is the existing system and, generally speaking, that is how people should pay back their loans. If they do not pay them back, they are the ones who will suffer.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

6:15 p.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part in the debate on Bill C-29, An Act to amend the Canada Elections Act (accountability with respect to loans). The Bloc Québécois supports the principle of this bill. However, the government has brought back some measures that we had already amended in committee.

The Bloc Québécois reserves its decision regarding the final vote on this legislation. I will be brief in dealing with its content.

The bill provides that all loans to political entities, including mandatory disclosure of terms, and the identity of all lenders and loan guarantors, must be uniform and transparent. Also, unions and corporations, save for some exceptions, would be prohibited from making contributions under the Federal Accountability Act, and also from lending money. The amount of loans, loan guarantees and contributions that individuals can make cannot exceed the limit prescribed in the Federal Accountability Act, namely $1,100. Finally, only financial institutions and political entities would be allowed to make loans beyond the contribution limit, and only at commercial rates of interest. The rules for the treatment of unpaid loans to ensure candidates cannot walk away from unpaid loans would be tightened. The bill also provides that loans that remain unpaid after 18 months would be considered political contributions.

The problem is with the last point. Riding associations—or, in the absence thereof, the party itself—would be responsible for paying back debts that their candidates fail to reimburse. Several of my colleagues here in the House, particularly my Bloc Québécois colleagues, have said how absurd that is. In fact, the government introduced this motion, as well as two others, to counter three amendments made by the opposition parties in committee. By putting this motion forward, the Conservative government is rejecting the Bloc Québécois amendment.

Political parties—and I think we have heard this several times now—would become responsible for debts contracted by their candidates. The problem with the governing party's motion is that political parties are not really involved in contracts between candidates and their financial institutions. In Quebec, that is between the candidate and his or her bank or credit union. Political parties do not get involved in that aspect of their candidates' election campaigns.

With this motion, the government is trying to make parties responsible for their candidates' debts, which is completely illogical because parties cannot limit their candidates' spending. There is a limit, a cap, but candidates may borrow money for their own campaigns at their own discretion or that of their organizations. The party is not involved in the transaction.

A candidate can therefore go into debt. Say a candidate borrows $60,000 from a bank or credit union. The party cannot stop candidates from doing this. Legally, candidates can do this. The party would then end up with that candidate's debt, as well as that of other candidates who, unfortunately, cannot or will not pay the money back. This is akin to a law allowing someone to borrow money without informing the guarantor. When the credit union manager asks for the name of the guarantor, the borrower could say that it is his neighbour. The neighbour would then be responsible for the debt if the borrower did not pay it back. That makes no sense at all.

Of course, it would be wrong to assume that all the candidates in an election are dishonest. On the contrary, I hope that the vast majority are honest. But we are opening the door to a situation where someone runs for election, goes deeply into debt and does not win a seat. He knows that if he cannot repay his debts, the party will be saddled with the debt. A political party would be in serious difficulty if even a few people could not or would not shoulder that debt.

When I fought my first election campaign, the Bloc Québécois in Richmond—Arthabaska did not have much money in its coffers. I was chosen as the candidate on the day the 2000 election was called. I had to borrow money. I took out a loan to fund my election campaign, and I knew what I was getting into.

I knew that after the election, I would be in debt. I hoped to get elected so that I would be able to repay my debt fairly quickly, but I lost by about 300 votes that time.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

6:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

6:20 p.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

I thank my colleagues for their expressions of sympathy, but it was just a temporary setback, Mr. Speaker. I won my seat in 2004.

To make a long story short, after the election campaign, I no longer had a job, and I was in a lot of debt. As any responsible person would do, I made sure I repaid that debt. It never occurred to me that my party should take on that responsibility.

Of course, I had received an election rebate, because my expenses were in order, but I had still borrowed money, because in our riding, the party did not have much money at the time. Things have changed a great deal since then. There must not be very many cases where candidates, at least Bloc Québécois candidates, do not repay their debts. If a party were saddled with all its candidates' debts, the party supporters would not be very happy.

Earlier, one of my colleagues was saying that in his riding—and it is that way for the most part in Bloc Québécois ridings—supporters quite often give small amounts of money. We have a multitude of supporters who take part in fundraising activities. They organize spaghetti nights at $10, $20 or $25 a head as a fundraiser because in our culture, we do not rely on big companies, even though the legislation has now changed for the better—thankfully.

I remember a time when the former prime minister, during a leadership race that was more like a coronation, received $100,000 from the Irving Oil Corporation. I can assure you that I have never received that kind of money, even when the legislation allowed it. Where I come from our supporters would be insulted if they were told that all the money they raised was going to be used to pay off a candidate's debt, if the candidate defaulted, because it was the party's responsibility to do so.

Bill C-29 is not a bad bill, since it corrects some of the shortcomings in the Accountability Act, the former Bill C-2, which the government wanted to pass so quickly that it unwittingly, or not—I am not sure—forgot the ethical problems.

That was at a time when the Conservative government probably thought, as many analysts did, that their mandate would last a year or a year and a half. They presented a few priorities—I believe there were five at first—saying they would start with that. In the two years the government has been in place, it has not seemed sure what direction to take. Nonetheless, I believe it does know: it wants to go back to the polls because it does not have any plans that would enable it to go on much longer.

The government thought it would not last long. It wanted to quickly fulfill its so-called promises, but in its haste it left out some parts. That is why we now have Bill C-29: to fill the gaps.

Bill C-29 seeks to prevent individuals from bypassing campaign financing rules.

Since I am being signalled that I have only two minutes left, I will be brief.

The Bloc Québécois believes it is necessary to regulate loans in order to prevent people from getting around the financing limits. In fact, it is ironic that this government is presenting such a bill, since the Conservative Party is currently being investigated by Elections Canada, which is refusing to rebate the campaign expenses for 67 Conservative candidates who ran during the last election campaign. There are nine members from Quebec, two ministers from Quebec and a secretary of state from Quebec. The latter is not really a minister, although he has a limousine. A secretary of state is not considered a real minister. Those people are among that group.

Here is how they do it: money is transferred to the ridings for advertising. It was supposed to be for local advertising, but in reality, it was used for national advertising. The candidate who received the money never once saw his face on television or in the media. It really was for national advertising. The riding associations sent money back to the national level to pay for the advertising.

This strategy allowed the party to raise its limits for campaign spending by $1.2 million. That is a considerable sum, which is why it is so important at this time, on the eve of a possible election campaign, to avoid this kind of ploy, and ensure that the Conservative Party cannot repeat the same gimmick, which allowed them to have higher spending limits for campaign advertising than any other party normally would have.

I would like to point out that the Conservative Party accused the NDP and the Liberals of doing the same thing. However, Elections Canada said that those parties really gave their candidates an opportunity to have local advertising. That is the difference.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake, MB

Mr. Speaker, talking about how loans can be used in such a way that can distort the political process and why it is so important that we bring forward Bill C-29, I just thought the hon. member would find it interesting to look at something, which we cannot fix because we did not make the legislation retroactive, and that would be some of the outstanding loans from the Liberal leadership race.

The member for Kings—Hants has a $200,000 loan, over 35% of his campaign funding was based on loans; the member for York Centre has a $300,000 loan, over 59% of his funding was based on loans; Bob Rae has $845,000 in loans; and the Leader of the Opposition has $455,000 in loans. Whether these loans were ever repaid is something that is of great importance to all of us here and why Bill C-29 is so important.

I would ask the member to comment on those huge loans.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

6:25 p.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Mr. Speaker, as I said, that is why we support the principle of Bill C-29. The government introduced this bill supposedly because several candidates in the Liberal Party of Canada leadership race borrowed large sums of money in order to circumvent the limits on contributions. What the government is not telling in all this is that its own leader, the Prime Minister himself, failed to make complete disclosure of contributions for the 2002 leadership race.

On October 2, 2002, the Globe and Mail reported that the Prime Minister had spent $1.1 million on his race for the leadership of the Canadian Alliance. It stated further that he had published an incomplete list of contributions.

We on this side of the House would be very interested to know what the total amount of these contributions is exactly. Who were the contributors for that leadership race? This government wants an election to be called. It ran in the last election on a platform of openness and transparency. It should do the same in the next campaign. We would like to know.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Royal Galipeau

Order, please.

The hon. member for Richmond—Arthabaska will have two minutes left in his time for debate when Bill C-29 comes back before the House.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to discuss in the House the question I raised on December 12 of last year, which had to do with approved destination status. It is extremely important when it comes to the issue of promoting and advertising tour groups both in Canada and in China.

In 2005 the previous Liberal government had an agreement in principle to deal with this issue. This is a very important issue in terms of advertising, because 134 countries have approved destination status and it is absolutely critical for us as a country in order to be able to promote tourism. In particular, there is the fact that the Chinese have over 120 million foreign trips a year. On average, they spend about $1,800, it is assumed, when it comes to hotels, shopping and so on.

We need to tap into that huge market, but as we know, the government's relations with China have not been very good, to say the least, or to be charitable. The fact is that when the government came in, it talked about a thousand Chinese spies in Canada and it waited about a year to have a meeting with the ambassador here. Generally, it has been a very rocky road.

Therefore, what has happened is that this agreement in principle has fallen off the table. We need to have this agreement in place because it will give us the opportunity for tour agencies to send groups to Canada and allow Canada to advertise itself in China as a preferred destination. We need to get that opportunity.

Unfortunately, the relationship is one in which there has been no agreement. In fact, we had the government threatening to take China to the WTO, and there are other moves that have not been beneficial.

This is important for our tourism industry. It is important for our tourist agencies. In this country, many people of Chinese descent would love to see this, as well as others, but the failure of the government to move on this issue has been and continues to be a very sore point.

We see the booming economies of China, India and others. The fact is that this is an opportunity that at the moment has been lost. We cannot have that happen. We need to have this.

The previous Liberal government saw the opportunity in China and Southeast Asia. We moved very quickly on that. We moved Canadian tourism's headquarters to Vancouver. We see Asia as an important opportunity for us, yet we are looking at a situation in which an estimated 700,000 Chinese tourists or more could come to Canada and, unless we have this ADS agreement, we will miss out.

Therefore, I urged the government to get back to the table, to cut down on the rhetoric with the Chinese and to come up with an agreement in the interests of both parties. In particular, for our tourist industry this is critical, as we are talking about a potential 700,000 tourists. We are talking about an average of $1,800 being spent by people coming here. It is a tremendous market.

We are looking at the Australians and others who have these agreements and we see where the tourists are going. They are not coming here. We need to get this done. I have urged the government to do so.

I would hope that the parliamentary secretary either will have some good news tonight or will at least indicate to me that we will get back to talking, because in the end this is not a partisan issue. This is a Canadian issue. We are pushing it because on this side of the House we believe that it is in our national interest to push something that others are taking advantage of.

6:30 p.m.

Oshawa Ontario

Conservative

Colin Carrie ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Industry

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have this opportunity to respond to the question asked by the hon. member for Richmond Hill, regarding Canada's negotiations with China to achieve an operational approved destination status.

The government has committed to finalizing approved destination status or ADS. ADS would provide a significant boost in tourism between Canada and China, a boost that would benefit Canada's important tourism sector. That is why the government has raised this issue directly with senior Chinese officials at every opportunity.

The Minister of International Trade travelled to China this past January. The minister met with his new Chinese counterpart, Minister Chen Deming. The two had a series of meetings where the full range of Canada-China bilateral commercial relations were discussed.

The ministers talked about ongoing progress in the negotiation of a foreign investment promotion and protection agreement, the latest developments in the Asia-Pacific gateway and corridor initiative, improving two way investment flows and deepening commercial operation. Let me assure the hon. member that the Canada-China relationship has a solid foundation, one that was clearly evident by the warm reception the minister received when he visited China.

We made it clear that Canada was looking to advance this file. The issue has been in play for several years now. Canada would like to move ADS along in a meaningful way. Canada would like to see this end in a win-win negotiated arrangement, whereby both countries would stand to benefit from the increased people to people ties that ADS would help facilitate, especially with China and Canada being back to back hosts for the Olympic Games. Therefore, we continue to pursue this objective with the Chinese at every single opportunity.

The Government of Canada recognizes that the tourism industry is a vital part of Canada's economy. Tourism generates $60 billion of revenue in Canada. It contributes to the economy of every region. China is an important tourism market for Canada and is one of our target markets. The Canadian Tourism Commission has an office in Beijing, has launched a Mandarin website and has participated in various tourism fairs in China.

Members can be assured that the government will continue to press the Chinese for progress on ADS. However, the hon. member must also be aware that ADS and tourism is but one component of our expansive commercial ties with China, which include bilateral trade, innovation cooperation and two way investments.

The Canada-China relationship will continue to grow and, in the meanwhile, individual Chinese visitors continue to come to Canada even without ADS. Preliminary estimates show that 146,000 overnight visitors came to Canada in 2007, the fourth straight year of growth. Canada has seen growth of about 12% in Chinese visitors since 2000.

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened attentively to the member. What I am concerned about is the Minister of International Trade went to China last month and threatened the Chinese by saying that he would drag them before the WTO in order to get this approved destination status. If that is in fact supposed to be a love-in, I would hate to see what is not. In this case, threatening them with the WTO did not advance our case.

The Liberal Party is prepared to repair Canada's relations with China. It is prepared to get back the agreement we had in principle, move forward and sign the deal. If the parliamentary secretary is suggesting that there was a new opening with regard to the Chinese, another question would be this. Why did the minister threaten to drag the Chinese before the WTO?

I encourage the government to stop the rhetoric, get to the table and work out an agreement the way others have done. In the end, what the member said is correct—

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Mr. Speaker, I find the hypocrisy of the member opposite astonishing. Not a single time in government did the member raise this issue publicly about approved destination status for Chinese travellers to Canada. The record will show that the Liberal government did not deliver and failed to open approved destination status with China.

The Conservative government is sitting down with the Chinese government trying to negotiate a deal to better Canadian tourism. The most the member can do is play petty politics. We are at the table. We are pushing forward. We are getting the job done.