House of Commons Hansard #53 of the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was troops.

Topics

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8:15 p.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

I was not speaking to you.

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8:15 p.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, do I have the floor or does the Minister of National Defence have carte blanche to keep yelling and shouting so I cannot even hear myself think?

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8:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

The hon. member for Halifax was addressing....

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8:15 p.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

Actually, I was hoping, Mr. Speaker, that you would call the Minister of National Defence to order because I could not even hear myself think while he was hurling his insults as I was trying to speak. I accorded him the courtesy of listening to every word he had to say.

I suppose it is a rhetorical question but I would like to ask the Minister of National Defence a question as he gave me no chance to answer any questions that he might have asked.

How does the minister think we will get on the path to peace if we put the overwhelming bulk of our resources into a counter-insurgency mission which is killing more and more civilians, destroying infrastructure, causing people to lose their homes, their lands or their livelihoods and is causing a severe increase in the security problems that are plaguing people's lives?

I do not hear a word coming from the defence minister about the importance of comprehensive peace processes that would involve regional players and yet every informed person who comments on what is happening there says that it is long overdue and that it is very crucial to finding a lasting peace in Afghanistan.

I am sorry that there was no question directed my way so I am taking the opportunity to reinforce the absolute importance of what is underscored in our amendments that we put before the House to engage in a robust, diplomatic process to prepare the groundwork for a political solution under UN direction, because that is the only way we will get on the path to peace.

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8:15 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, six long years ago our country entered into an international effort to go to Afghanistan. We moved in with a UN-backed, NATO-led mission. Our goal there was to remove al-Qaeda, which was using Afghanistan as a training base prior to 9/11 and at 9/11. We also went there to remove the Taliban.

We did not go there to make Afghanistan a safer place for Afghan people. We did not go there to save Afghan lives, as some of us wish we could have. Had we been there out of the goodness of our hearts, we would have entered into other countries, such as the Democratic Republic of the Congo, where, every single month, month in and month out, 32,000 people are dying of preventable causes and where 5 million people died in the largest genocide that we have seen since the second world war.

We went to Afghanistan for our own self-interest. Our troops, as members have said today, are acting in a courageous manner and in a way that makes us all proud. I can say on behalf of all of us here that we are indebted to their sacrifice and their courage. We honour their bravery. We in the House of Commons say to them that they are our best and finest Canadians.

Our job here obviously is to have this debate to ensure that the conditions for success are there for this mission, to ensure that we are able to put forth those conditions. In doing so, we are truly supporting our troops.

What is our goal? Our goal is to enable the Afghan people to provide for their own security. Our goal is to enable them to deal with the four pillars of Afghan security: Afghan police, Afghan army, the correctional system and the judiciary. Those four pillars of paid, equipped and trained personnel are absolutely integral if the Afghan people are to have their own security, the same kind of security that we ourselves enjoy in our beloved country.

Unless we provide security, unless we enable them to build all of those four pillars, it will be like a chair without its four legs. The chair will usually fall down or be weak. Our job is to enable the Afghan people to have those four pillars of their own security.

I will be splitting my time, Mr. Speaker, with the member for Scarborough Centre.

We have spent a lot of time with the Afghan army but we have neglected the Afghan police, the correctional service and the judiciary. We do this at our peril.

What we are proposing is that the government take to Bucharest the demand on the part of NATO to fund, train and equip all four elements of Afghan security, those four pillars. If we do that, and if we set up targets, timelines and guidelines, then the Afghan people, the Canadian public, our forces and our allies will all know what our targets are. Importantly, the Afghan people will understand very clearly when we are leaving. As their numbers increase, our numbers can decrease and therefore the Afghan people will know that we are not there as occupiers but as those who are there to enable them to be the masters of their destiny.

Those four pillars have to be dealt with. The Prime Minister should take that to Bucharest. Our allies, I am sure, would find the wisdom in that solution. Unless we do that, we have a never-ending open-ended obligation and that would be irresponsible.

Second, we have to deal with the political implications. One thing did not happen early on. The dominant tribe in Afghanistan is the Pashtun, of which there are many tribes and sub-tribes. They have been the traditional rulers in the 300 year history of Afghanistan. The Pashtun have dominated. Although Mr. Karzai is a Pashtun, he is not considered to be a true member of the tribe, for many reasons. They are not going put up with the Tajik-dominated government that they had. As a result, they have taken up arms.

Our goal is to make sure that we are able to reconcile this in a country driven for decades by feudalism, tribalism and war. Our job is to give them a manner of tribal reconciliation between the Tajik, the Hazara, the Pashtun and others. If we do that, then there will be a chance for peace, but if we fail, then there will not be peace in Afghanistan.

Third, Mr. Karzai rejected Paddy Ashdown as the supra-representative. That was a mistake. Unless there is a supra-representative there who is able to coordinate the activities on the ground and, quite frankly, knock some heads together, the corruption that is a cancer within the government of Afghanistan will continue and this will erode the efforts of the international community in perpetuity.

We will never win, the Afghan people will never win and security will never come to Afghanistan unless external forces are able to work with Mr. Karzai and, quite frankly, take a very tough, hard line to rein in the corruption that is destroying the ability of any of us to work with that country and to enable the people to have the security for which they yearn.

Fourth, there is the issue of poppies. Maybe a limited narcotic substitution program can take place with the opium being redirected to the legal production of narcotics, but that would be very limited. A second option is the use of artemisinin, which is the drug of choice for treating malaria. Ironically, artemisinin grows in the same kind of soil that poppies grow in. In some areas, the poppy crops could be transplanted and transported, allowing artemisinin to be grown.

However, the reality on the ground is something very different. It is stark and brutal. What is a farmer going to do when the drug lords come to him, put a gun to his head and tell him that if he does not grow poppies his women will be raped, his house will be burned down and he will be shot? He is going to grow poppies. That is the stark reality on the ground because of the absence of security in large parts of the country.

What we need to do is something that is entirely in our court. Unless there is a demand strategy, unless we reduce demand in our country and in the west, there will always be production of illegal drugs. We have failed to adopt the very intelligent work being done by Dr. Julio Montaner and others at the Centre for Excellence in Vancouver and by others in our country who have intelligent, effective drug and harm reduction strategies.

Unless the government is able to work hard with the provinces to implement a national drug strategy, there will always be people in our country who are buying heroin and other drugs. Those who buy heroin actually are putting money into the hands of those insurgents who are killing our soldiers, so congratulations: buy heroin and it supports the murder of our soldiers.

Therefore, it is our responsibility to have a demand reduction strategy in our own house. Regardless of what the United States feels, we need to do it. It is our responsibility. It is our responsibility to our troops.

The other big issue, obviously, is international assistance. It is a dog's breakfast in Afghanistan. Groups are tumbling over each other to try to provide care, but in effect we have a very ineffective international development assistance regime. We know it. We have heard it.

What could we do to rectify the situation? Let us take a leaf out of the UNAIDS mandate, which decided to use a three ones approach: one implementing mechanism, one framework and one mechanism to oversee it. If we use that three ones approach, we will streamline the mechanism and we will be able to have an effective aid and international development strategy on the ground in Afghanistan.

We also need to take a leaf out of the books of groups such as the Peace Dividend Trust, which very effectively and intelligently is ensuring that moneys going into Afghanistan are not being deployed to international workers and contractors. Rather, those moneys are being used to build up capacity within Afghanistan, by Afghans, for Afghanistan. By doing so, this is able to provide the long term sustainable security and development the country needs. It is within our purview to do that.

I see that my time is up, so I will close with this. At the end of the day, our goal is to communicate to our troops, the public and the Afghan people some very realistic solutions. We also have to be realistic in terms of our expectations. Afghanistan is not the democratic republic of Afghanistan but the Islamic republic of Afghanistan, and while some may wish to change Afghanistan into a pale replica of us, that is not going to happen.

Whatever we do has to be within what the Afghan people want. It has to be what is wanted by the Afghan people. It has to be congruent with their goals and objectives for their future. It has to be sustainable. Unless we do that, there will be war without end.

Lastly, there is confusion among some about the differences among insurgents, the Taliban and al-Qaeda. They are very different groups. Also, the Taliban is not a monolithic structure.

We have a responsibility to provide an effective series of solutions for our troops and for the Afghan people. I hope the government listens to what our party and other parties are offering in the debate taking place tonight. We are offering effective solutions that the government can take to Bucharest, particularly the four pillars approach, which is essential to the long term success of Afghanistan by Afghanis for their nation.

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8:25 p.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is clear tonight by the speech delivered by my hon. colleague that we on this side of the House welcome the debate on the government's new motion on Afghanistan.

We are pleased to see that the government chose to use the proposed Liberal motion introduced two weeks ago as its basis for this new motion. I say this not in a partisan way but to also illustrate that we need to cooperate on issues such as this one.

The new motion adopts the principles that the mission must change, that it must end, and that it must go well beyond an exclusively military focus, principles for which the Liberal Party has been calling over the past year.

As well, with this motion the government is acknowledging that the mission must change. It has used the Liberal description of the mission after February 2009, which will change in focus to a mission of training, security and reconstruction. It has also accepted today that the mission must end. This motion sets a firm end date of July 2011 to Canada's mission in Kandahar.

The Conservative government has also accepted that our presence in Afghanistan must be about more than military. Key commitments on development and diplomacy that were absent from the government's original motion have been imported directly from the Liberal motion.

I would like to give my hon. colleague an opportunity to expand on some of the answers that we need to get from the government in order to support this new motion.

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8:25 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, my colleague's question on this extremely important issue is a very prescient one.

I want to deal with the first aspect. We have to be realistic in what we are trying to achieve in the type of environment we are in. This is an Islamic country riven by feudalism and corruption, a country that has seen decades of war, and it is a people that has been traumatized. Many Afghans have never seen peace in their lifetimes.

My hon. colleague mentioned the end date. We have to marry that end date up with targets for the four pillars of Afghanistan security. With our allies, we have to enable the Afghan people to have trained, equipped and paid for Afghan police, army, corrections and judiciary.

We know that the Afghan police at one time were being paid $40 a month. It has gone up to $70 and it may be up to $100. However, if people do not have enough money in their pockets to pay for food for their families and they have an AK-47 at their sides, what are they going to do? Their choices are stark and they do not have very many. It is staggering to me that the government and our allies have not dealt with this before.

In fact, I find it really shocking and a complete violation of the responsibility of the government that back in 2006 the Conservative government gave this House only two days upon which to determine whether or not there would be a two year extension to the mission. That was an utterly irresponsible political act.

The government did not give us a chance to put forth constructive solutions as we have done here today by talking about the targets, the four pillars of Afghanistan security, the political reconciliation that has to come within the confines of Afghanistan, and dealing with the external insurgency, which means bringing into the mix a regional working group that involves Pakistan, India, Iran and the CIS states to dampen down the insurgency that is destroying the very heart and soul of Afghanistan.

The government did not give us that opportunity. As a result, we have seen the errors of the last two years, which have done a huge disservice to our troops, to the Canadian people and, worse, to the Afghan people.

The government has to listen to these solutions and, by heavens, it has to work with us and take these solutions to Bucharest. Frankly, before Bucharest, the government should phone our allies and drive these ideas through with them. If we are able to drive them with our allies, we can get our allies on board before we get to Bucharest and go in with a united front and a very strong, effective plan to deal with the challenges ahead.

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8:30 p.m.

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, let me thank my colleague from Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca for sharing his time with me to give me the opportunity to add my voice to this most important debate.

I am pleased that the member also mentioned the shortage of time when this debate first started a couple of years ago. At that time, as members will recall, we were in a minority government and in such a short period of time were not able to take out some of the bugs and bring forward something better. Today again it is a minority government and here we are asking for the time to discuss this. Why? Because we are asking our men and women in uniform to go into harm's way and, we hope, bring some peace, security and development to this most unfortunate region of Kandahar, Afghanistan.

I followed the debate throughout the day and was saddened in many ways by some of the comments that were made.

I want to say first and foremost that I think I speak on behalf of every member in this House when I say that when we stand to speak, we are not here to pit our military against party A or party B. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with doing the right thing, making the right decision. That is why I am going to start by reminding each and every Canadian of some words that the Prime Minister has used in the past. In essence he used George Bush's words when he said, “We're not going to cut and run”. It is not a matter of cutting and running. The government has not said so, no member has said so, no Canadian has said so, and our men and women in uniform have not said so. We are simply trying to set the terms of engagement for a successful outcome. I just wanted to clarify that for the record.

In the last Parliament I had the privilege of chairing the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs. Today I am vice-chair. I have had the opportunity, unlike most other members who I am sure would have appreciated the opportunity, to listen to various witnesses who came before our committee, including people who were formerly in the military, academics, recognized organizations, NGOs, people currently in the military, and the previous minister of defence as well. We were able to hear all their comments.

Members also listen to their constituents. This past Friday, I met with an Afghanistan group, who said, “You guys don't really know what is going on over there”. I heard some other comments, which I will bring forth today.

Some good things have been said in the Manley report. Through this debate I also want to inform Canadians that the committee on national defence committee worked very hard to put a report together which was tabled last June, with 12 recommendations. There was a 13th recommendation which unfortunately we could not put in the report, and I will explain why. It concerned something which everyone is talking about, and that is training, training, training.

We recommended that we get more involved and make sure that the Afghanis are trained properly to provide security, policing and whatnot. The researchers came back to us and said, “There is no evidence to support the recommendation as stated. The current ANP training program is the responsibility of the U.S. and Germany, at a cost of $1 billion”.

So, what are we talking about? We are talking about training, training, training. If we are going to address an issue, we have to deal with reality. The Canadian forces provide only about seven or eight policemen to help with training the military police, local ANP, only in the area of Kandahar. I mention that to clarify it for people who are very interested in this most important issue.

The Minister of National Defence went to the recent meeting and he was promised by the French that they would send 700 troops. That was an empty promise. There is no delivery.

The concern I have with respect to the Manley report is the 1,000 additional troops. I am hoping it does not include the 2,500 troops the United States of America is to send in for a period of seven or eight months. One of their senior military people said a couple of weeks ago in a press conference in the United States that 400,000 troops are needed.

We have been told by witnesses that until now approximately 50,000 to 51,000 troops are there and we have trained approximately 49,000 to 50,000. The problem we have with that is what my colleague pointed out earlier in terms of the poppy growing areas.

Mr. Siddiqui wrote in the Toronto Star a couple of weeks ago that that is where the problem lies. The organizations pay a farmer, or a security guard, or a police officer $50, $60 or $100 a month and the drug lords pay them $300, $500 or $600 a month. During the day they are acting as police officers and during the night they are pushing drugs. They bring in hundreds of millions of dollars which they then use to support their insurgent activities. We are cutting off our nose to spite our face. We are not making any headway.

My colleague from Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca hit the nail on the head. We know where the problem is. Why are we not focusing on those poppy growing areas? He talked about a feudal system. We understand it. How do we get them to move away from that system? By engaging them, by providing security, by providing development, but security especially, so that the farmer's life is not in jeopardy.

I have another concern in terms of the borders. I read a headline, “Taliban calls truce with Pakistan”. As far as I am concerned, the president of Pakistan, Mr. Musharraf, needs to be put in his place. He should either shape up or ship out. On one hand I remember when the Conservatives were in opposition they said they would not deal with those guys. Today we do not want to deal with them, but the guys we are trying to protect are in essence dealing with them behind our backs while our men and women are in harm's way. I do not find that acceptable and I am sure every Canadian does not find it acceptable either.

Witnesses tell us what is going on in Afghanistan. In a recent article, Lieutenant-General Michel Gauthier said that we are making progress, that insurgent ambushes have fallen in four of Kandahar's 17 districts. However, further on the article states that Major-General Marc Lessard, the new commander of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, says that violent incidents are up by 50%. Who can we really believe?

Let me summarize. With respect to NATO, I would ask the minister when he goes to Bucharest to pull up his socks and let Canada be counted. We had before our committee the chairman of the military committee of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, General Henault, former chief of the defence staff for Canada. My question to him is on record. I asked him if he was preparing for 2009 knowing that that was the date. It took me three questions. I finally got out of him that they were preparing.

We do not buy this argument that if we give them short notice, we cannot replace the troops. That is hogwash. I want everyone to know that NATO does not respond overnight. It does sometimes in an emergency situation, but it knew that we would be leaving in 2009 and it was planning for it.

I close by saying to all the NATO partners that if they are going to be members of NATO, then they should participate equally. The Korean conflict was mentioned earlier. Let us share in this together. It should not just be Canadians taking the hit. Let us rotate. If a country is going to be a member of the club, then it should take up the responsibilities.

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8:40 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the speech given by my colleague, with whom I sit on the Standing Committee on National Defence. He often has an informed opinion about how things happen.

However, I would like to remind him that in 2001, when the previous government began the mission, Parliament was not consulted and there was no debate, contrary to the Conservative approach, which holds that it is important that Parliament support soldiers on mission abroad. That is why we are engaging in our third debate in less than two years, a debate that we hope will be as informed and open as possible. In the same way, we wanted the Manley report to be debated in the Standing Committee on National Defence. Unfortunately, the opposition refused to invite the people concerned to the committee.

My colleague mentioned an important aspect of governance: making sure our Afghan partner eliminates government corruption. He also mentioned the challenges of regional stability and porous borders.

But he is well aware that our Prime Minister is going to Bucharest with two very clear demands, which he has already begun to state: there must be additional troops in Kandahar and additional equipment, especially helicopters, so that our soldiers can move safely through areas where there is violence.

Given that the demands will be clear in Bucharest, why has my colleague opposite finally come around to these dates? What led his party to agree with our position that it is not necessarily up to parliamentarians to decide how things are developing in the field, but that we have to proceed according to what is happening in the field?

I would like to know how the Liberals came around to the government's position on continuing the mission in Afghanistan.

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8:45 p.m.

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member has asked several questions. First, when Canada went to Afghanistan we went in under the three D policy, development, diplomacy and defence. That was a decision we made given the circumstances. We learned along the way. We had a debate that was forced by the opposition at the time. Today it is more elaborate. As time goes by the debate actually improves.

I have heard military people, most recently the head of the U.S. defence command, say that a thousand troops are not going to do it. He is talking about 400. We are really fooling ourselves when we say that an additional thousand troops is going to solve this problem in answer to that question.

Second, I must say that we had a constructive exchange in committee and that is why we will move positively forward. That is also why I am a bit upset. When in opposition, the current Prime Minister said, “I am going to use committees. I am going to use the parliamentary process”. Committees brought the report in. He was part of it.What did the Prime Minister do? This is not a low blow, but he threw it out. It did not matter. He went through independent channels.

That being the case, we should all sit at home and not bother going to committee. We should not bother listening to witnesses. Instead, we should hire independent people to do all the work for us. What can I say.

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8:45 p.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to give the hon. member an opportunity to answer. I paid careful attention to what he said. It is obvious that over the years he has proven to be an expert in the field of defence.

I would like the member to comment on our fundamental principles and our guide as Liberals as it relates to Afghanistan. Should there be a change in mission, an end to the mission, a greater commitment to development and diplomacy and greater transparency and accountability?

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8:45 p.m.

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, what we have done is the Liberal Party under its leader has managed to refocus the mission to where it should be, which is development, defence and diplomacy. We want to help build schools, roads, security, a civil service and a society where the citizens of that country can grow and prosper in peace and harmony. I am supporting this motion because now the new Conservative Party is seeing it in the Liberal way.

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8:45 p.m.

Souris—Moose Mountain Saskatchewan

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Saskatoon—Humboldt.

I am quite pleased to join in this important debate on the future of the Afghan mission. I believe this is not a time to shrink back, as some would have it, as we move to a pivotal moment in the future of Afghanistan. Pulling back or pulling out at a moment that requires one to go forward and commit would be a colossal error. When the scales are about to tip, or have just tipped, a greater effort and more resolve is required to tip them in the right direction. This is that time, this is that hour. It is a time of going forward and not shrinking back.

This is why I am happy to see there is some fundamental common ground between the government and the official opposition on the continuation of the mission until 2011. To have left in 2009 would have been cutting and running. It would not be something that would be conducive to what would need to happen. The House cannot abandon the Afghan people, as some have suggested. We need to continue advancing security, development and governance.

Canadians have asked honest questions like why are we in Afghanistan? War is never easy, not for the troops and not for Canadians themselves.

I respond by saying we need to remember why we are in Afghanistan and what it is we hope to accomplish. Canada was invited by the Afghan government, a democratically elected government, along with 36 other nations as part of a UN-sanctioned, NATO-led mission. We were committed to Kandahar, which is the most troubled region in Afghanistan, by a previous government. Through a vote in the House, in which we all had an opportunity to participate, we honoured and extended that commitment.

We should also remember that we are not there solely for the benefit of Afghans, but also for the benefit of Canada and Canadians.

The brutal reality of September 11 serves as a reminder that no country is immune from the threat of terrorism. Canadians died the day the twin towers came down. If we choose to live in a false sense of security, pretending all is well and ignoring the reality of what happened on 9/11 or who was behind it, we will ultimately come to regret it.

We must take the fight to the enemy, but this responsibility is not ours alone. It is the responsibility of all peace-loving nations as a whole and we must share in that responsibility. Ultimately the people of Afghanistan have that responsibility as well.

The independent panel on Canada's future role on Afghanistan, led by former deputy prime minister John Manley, said in its report:

A primary Canadian objective, while helping Afghans, has been to help ensure that Afghanistan itself does not again revert to the status of sanctuary and head office for global terrorism.

We must remain committed to the people of Afghanistan to 2011 to provide sufficient time for Afghans to ready themselves to shoulder the responsibility of security and governance. Canada has always stepped up to the plate for our international obligations.

Canada has a long history of proving our commitment to international peace and stability, whether in World Wars I and II, Korea, the former Yugoslavia, or today in Afghanistan. Our mission in Afghanistan is in keeping with this history, while maintaining a balance of policy needs like security, governance and development. Canada has a responsibility as a leader in the international community to step up when the need calls.

We cannot focus on every conflict in the world, but when we do act, we must act decisively and with purpose. If we are to be involved with a conflict, we must put in a determined effort. It must be real, it must be substantial and it must be with an eye to victory. We began by rebuilding the military and updating its equipment, but as the Manley report indicated, specific steps needed to be taken with respect to Afghanistan.

The Manley panel recommended that Canada's role in Afghanistan should give greater emphasis to diplomacy, reconstruction and governance and that the military mission should shift increasingly toward the training of Afghan National Security Forces.

The motion before us today reflects these recommendations, which the Prime Minister broadly accepted.

The motion states that the House is to take note that the ultimate aim of Canadian policy is to leave Afghanistan to Afghans. Our goal is to help build a country that is better governed, more peaceful and more secure. We aim to create the necessary space and conditions to allow the Afghans themselves to achieve a political solution to the conflict.

To achieve that aim, it is essential to assist the people of Afghanistan to have properly trained, equipped and paid members of the four pillars of their security apparatus: the army, the police, the judicial system and the correctional system.

We are making progress in these areas as well. For instance, more Afghan battalions are up and running than last year. Every month that goes by, they are better trained to provide security for the communities that are trying to live in peace and to raise their children. Our goal is to let Afghans defend and govern themselves.

Canada is helping to reform the Afghan justice system, to promote human rights and allow for better protection of its citizens. Consider this, Canada directly supports the training of more than 70 prosecutors, 68 public defenders and more than 200 judges. Having a judicial system that works and operates, sets the checks and balances and the foundations necessary for a society to succeed.

Over 600 Afghan national police have received training through the provincial reconstruction team. Canada is a major contributor to the international Law and Order Trust Fund that pays the salaries of over 60,000 policemen in all 34 provinces of Afghanistan. We have helped construct police stations and checkpoints to help improve local security.

Let us not forget what the motion calls for. It says that Canada should continue a military presence in Kandahar beyond February 2009 to July 2011 in a manner fully consistent with the UN mandate on Afghanistan. This means we will continue training Afghan national security forces so they can assume responsibility for their own security. Security means development can happen. Security means democracy can flourish.

To quote the Manley report, “Security enables development; effective governance enhances security; development creates opportunities, and multiplies the rewards, of improved security and good governance”.

Security is an essential condition of good governance and lasting development, but this continued involvement must have what it needs to meet the goal. We are our making the commitment conditional on NATO providing us with a battle group of 1,000 soldiers. As well, our soldiers need medium to heavy lift helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles for intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance. I know the government is working hard to meet these requirements.

The motion is not an open-ended commitment and neither is it without condition. It defines the extent and duration of Canada's commitment that is consistent with Canadian's hearts and minds on this matter. To date we have carried an enormous part of the load in the most difficult part of the country. As the Prime Minister has said, Canadians want us to make a positive difference in a dangerous world. In Afghanistan we are making that difference.

We must remember that terrorism remains a threat to global peace and security. Afghanistan has been used as a base for terrorism in the past. In the interest of our collective security, Canada and its international partners share a responsibility. In the end, we must provide the people of Afghanistan with the hope for a brighter future by establishing the security necessary to promote development and an environment that is conducive to improve Afghan lives.

Rebuilding a shattered Afghanistan is a slow and complex process in a country that is emerging from more than two decades of human rights abuses, terror, conflict, drought and poverty. That responsibility is not ours alone. It is the responsibility of all peace-loving nations and everyone must play their part in a determined way.

I urge all members of the House to support this motion so we can continue the important job of helping to rebuild Afghanistan.

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8:55 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of comments to make. I think we should all be very careful in our expectations.

First, Afghanistan is an Islamic republic. It is a feudal, tribal Islamic republic. We will not turn it around into a democratic, secular, human rights embracing nation. It just will not happen, unless we want to be there for generation after generation. If we were, we would be seen as occupiers and the insurgency would make matters worse.

Second, on the issue of al-Qaeda, all the battles that we will fight in Afghanistan, all the reconstruction that we will do there will make almost no difference whatsoever to al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda is an international diffuse organization with no titular head. It is a diffuse movement all over the world. If we were really interested in dealing with al-Qaeda, which incidentally left a few short weeks after 9/11 and it by and large left the country before we even got there, then we have to deal with some difficult and tricky issues such as Saudi Arabia, repressive, thuggish regimes in the Middle East, the lack of resolution to Israel and Palestine and not having two states side by side with 67 borders. We have to deal with those things in order to address al-Qaeda as well as putting money into our own domestic surveillance mechanisms and strengthening our role in Interpol and others.

The member made some good points on corruption. Will he ask his government, when it goes to Bucharest, to put much greater pressure on our allies to support adequate pay for the civil service in Afghanistan, as well as the pay for the Afghan police, army, judiciary and corrections and that they also receive the equipment they need and adequate training?

Unless the civil service is paid adequately, the people will resort to bribes and petty crimes to survive. That kind of endemic corruption will not go away unless the people have adequate pay and also an adequate governance structure. I suggest Canada could make a very strong, positive impact on the future of Afghanistan by using our extraordinary tools within Canada. We are an exceptional country that could provide the governance solutions required in other countries, to train other countries to have a good public service.

This is something in which I firmly believe. Our country could play a very effective role if we were to use the tools that we have within our own country to enable Afghan people to build up their own capacity in governance as well as in primary health, education and economic development.

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9 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the hon. member indicating that expectations should not be set very high, but we should have expectations nonetheless.

Incredibly, if we look at the history of what has happened in a short period of time, there has been progress. I know it is important to have various capacity building foundations to ensure the ability is there to succeed. I know in the judiciary having prosecutors and defence counsel, including judges, are fairly important aspects and that has been ongoing and going forward.

Payment has been made. I appreciate that the member wants to ensure it is adequate. However, one thing is for sure. Leaving as early as 2009 would not have left them in a position where Afghans would have the ability to succeed.

However, the progress that I do see is significant. It would be unthinkable just a few years ago to imagine what has happened to date. For example, a new Afghan constitution has restored the rule of law with respect to the human rights of every Afghan citizen, including women and children. The Afghan people now vote. Women and girls have rights and children go to school. There are reports on what those statistics are and they are encouraging.

There is no doubt they need to have the infrastructure, the capacity and the governance structure to succeed, but we have to be there as that grows. By extending this mission and ensuring the protection and nurturing of that, at some point it needs to take root and it needs to be the responsibility of the Afghan people to take it to its ultimate conclusion.

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9 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to join the debate in the House of Commons today on Canada's future mission in Afghanistan.

Before I go into the main body of my speech, I would like to tell Canadians watching, particularly the men and women of our armed forces, their families and very close friends, and especially because of my own personal family, friends and members of the reserves who are participating in the mission in Afghanistan, that we as their representatives in the House of Commons want them to know that we understand their sacrifice. They have taken more on in this mission than any one of us will.

I do not know how anyone can bear the loss of a loved one who sacrifices for his or her country, but it is something we honour and value. All members of the House, regardless of where they stand in this debate tonight, wish to express their deepest gratitude to them for their sacrifice.

It is important to recall why Canada went into Afghanistan. As a nation we have always believed in and fought for freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law. This has been consistent in Canadian history regardless of the stripe of the government. Yet, many Canadians question why we are in Afghanistan and why it is important to stay the course in a country half a world away. That is why today's debate is so important.

For the greater part of the past 30 years, Afghanistan has been a nation in conflict. After the Soviet Union withdrew in 1989, most of the world went back to its own business and forgot about Afghanistan and its problems. While the rest of the world went about its business, the Taliban rose to power and took over in Afghanistan. It implemented a strict, medieval interpretation of Sharia law and became notorious for its treatment of women.

I am sure all Canadians, who have seen it, remember the almost unbelievable pictures of a woman being executed in a soccer stadium, a tragic reversal for a site that was meant for fun and enjoyment and turned into a place of cruelty and barbarism.

Then on September 11, 2001, al-Qaeda committed the deadly attacks in New York and Washington, D.C. and like the cities they attacked, their victims were diverse: Canadians, Americans, Europeans and Asians. People from all nations and across the globe died that day. In the years that followed, al-Qaeda's atrocities spread from Madrid to Bali to London. Its cruelty knew no borders, whether geographic, religious or cultural.

In the face of such a threat, Canada joined an international coalition to drive the Taliban out of Afghanistan and to destroy al-Qaeda. We committed to Afghanistan to help rebuild the country and ensure that it not become an incubator for terrorism again and a threat to democracies around the world.

Our efforts in Afghanistan have been a whole government effort, a collaboration of our military personnel, the diplomatic community and aid workers. We work in partnership with the Afghan government and other international allies and there have been incredible achievements.

Five million refugees returned since 2002, 90% of them finding jobs within six months of their return; 10 million Afghans registered to vote in free and fair elections, the presidential election of 2004 and the parliamentary election of 2005; 347 women were candidates for the lower house; 83% of Afghans now have access to basic health care compared to a mere 9% in 2004; 40,000 more babies survive each year in Afghanistan; and in a country where girls were not allowed to be educated, today more than two million girls are part of the six million children who are being educated.

Canada is directly involved in helping to build schools, set up after school programs and training teachers. We are providing training for 9,000 new teachers, 4,000 of whom are women. Women are now part of the Afghan National Police and there has been a targeted effort to include women in family response units.

These are important steps as Afghan policewomen can address the unique needs and problems of Afghan women, respecting the values and customs of the society. These are incredible achievements considering where the country was less than a decade ago, in the grips of the Taliban.

We cannot forget the accomplishments of our military. The men and women in Afghanistan wearing the Canadian Forces uniform have made great progress. From a start of 30 to 40 trainees, the Canadian Forces have now contributed to the training of 35,000 Afghan national army personnel.

We have mentored five Afghan national army kandaks, the equivalent of five Canadian battalions. Training and mentoring these units will significantly increase the size and capabilities of the Afghan national army's security capability.

Canada is also contributing to the training of the Afghan national police. Over 600 Afghan national police have received training through the provincial reconstruction team.

A civilian-military cooperation team, including engineering specialists, recently completed construction of a well for Kandahar University. Prior to this, the university was forced to truck in water at the expense of educational priorities.

Canadian Forces are helping to rebuild and pave the key Kandahar-Spin Boldak highway, a highway which will help farmers move produce to markets, doctors to reach villages, and police to respond to emergencies.

Just a month ago, the Canadian Forces inaugurated the Arghandab River causeway. This causeway links two highways and provides greater access for the local economy while improving the ability of allied forces to respond to threats. Despite this remarkable progress, more needs to be done.

The Afghanistan Compact, which details timelines and benchmarks, calls for an Afghan national army approaching 70,000 in strength and an Afghan national and border police with a combined force of up to 62,000.

In economic and social development, the Compact calls for a fully upgraded and maintained ring road and roads to connect Afghanistan to neighbouring countries.

It sets a goal of electricity reaching 65% of households and 90% of businesses in urban areas and 25% in rural areas by 2010.

It calls for water resource management plans to ensure sustainable development in the future.

It sets goals for poverty reduction and assistance to women, the disabled and youth.

It sets a number of goals for rural development, like safe drinking water and access to markets for agriculture.

The motion before us today recognizes the need for Canada to continue our work in achieving benchmarks through the Afghanistan Compact. It calls on Canada to continue the work that it has started. It calls on us to provide security so reconstruction can continue, so we can reach the goals of the Afghanistan compact.

Canadian efforts, diplomatic, developmental and defence, are making a difference, but there is more to be done.

The Manley panel in its report stated:

Canadian interests and values, and Canadian lives, are now invested in Afghanistan. The sacrifices made there, by Canadians and their families, must be respected. What we do there...affects the Afghan people.

This is a mission that reflects Canada's history of protecting people from aggressors. It reflects Canada's history of fighting for freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law.

This is a mission that is both honourable and achievable. We are there for three basic reasons: prevent evil from finding a base again as it seeks to strike out to the rest of the world; promote Canadian values, namely, peace, order and good government; and protect the lives of the innocent in Afghanistan and throughout the entire world.

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9:10 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like the hon. member who just spoke to explain to us how we are to understand one thing in particular. Since we have been in Afghanistan, one of the things we have done is help the Northern Alliance in its efforts to bring down the Taliban regime. There was a willingness to establish a democracy and a new economy and to curb the opium crops. Why is it that poppy production has tripled since then? How are we to understand that? If we look at this issue alone, would you not say this is a major failure? I will come back to other aspects a little later.

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9:10 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Mr. Speaker, I would just say to the hon. member that the way we evaluate any mission or any project is through its totality.

I am not an expert on the specifics of the opium trade in Afghanistan, but I would point to all the good that I talked about: the schools for women, the civil rights, the ability to have water, to have agriculture, to have trade, and the millions of people who are now in their homes. This is good. This is what we have done. This is what we have contributed.

The hon. member brings out a point. The opium trade needs to be dealt with. The fact that the opium trade needs to be dealt with in Afghanistan is not a reason to withdraw. If anything, it is a reason for us to continue to engage. We do not want that heroin on our streets or on the streets of anywhere else in this world because of the damage it does. If Canadians pull out, if we back away from Afghanistan, we no longer have the ability to influence and protect our people here from that scourge.

It is for those reasons we can choose to leave and no longer have any influence, no longer be able to protect Canadians from heroin. We can either choose to leave or we can choose to stay and make a difference. I, for one, believe we as Canadians must choose to stay and make that difference.

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9:10 p.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON

Mr. Speaker, as our leader said earlier today, the Liberal Party believes that the successful future of Afghanistan is really in our nation's best interests.

We believe our efforts there really reflect the fundamental values and principles in which Canadians believe: freedom, democracy, equality, security and the respect for fundamental human rights. We fundamentally believe that these values are worth pursuing. We believe that our efforts in Afghanistan, supported with a clear UN mandate, can be successful.

We are also very clear on the principles that we must adhere to as a country, which is that we must have a change in the mission, an end to the mission, with a greater commitment to development and diplomacy and greater transparency and accountability.

It is on that last point that I have a couple of questions. They relate to the government's motion calling for a battle group of 1,000 NATO troops to rotate into Kandahar by February 2009.

The question I have first is, why 1,000 troops? Where did that number come from? I have heard numbers as high as 5,000.

The second question relates to the rotation process. How long is the government prepared to wait before it determines whether or not this condition has been met?

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9:15 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Mr. Speaker, the 1,000 personnel recommendation comes from the Manley report where it says, “in the neighbourhood of about 1,000”. A military officer I have talked to would prefer to have more forces at his disposal, more equipment, et cetera. My understanding is that was the recommendation having talked with military personnel on the ground.

As far as the matter of the rotation of Canadian troops, my understanding again is that those are operational matters and I will defer to people with military experience as to what benchmarks specifically they would be looking for.

I will note for the hon. member that my understanding is that both the United States and most recently I read a report that France has been looking to be engaged and be supportive. Other countries have come to understand that if we put more effort in, if we put in the appropriate amount of troops, equipment and support, we can put the Taliban and their allies on their heels.

I was reading a report only yesterday about how the British forces were noting that in their district, the Taliban had pulled out, not completely, but partially. They had them exhausted. They had them on the run.

While I am not an expert again on the particulars of that, it was an encouraging report to read, that we are pushing back, that the forces that we are providing to help the Afghan national army and national police are seeing success. That is why I am encouraged by what our allies are doing, what Canada is doing, and what the Afghan people are doing in their own country.

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9:15 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is always an onerous task to rise and speak in Parliament on a matter of such importance and broad application for both the Taliban—who are not our first concern of course—and Afghans: the Taliban because of the defeat we want to inflict on them and Afghans because of the impact the mission has on them.

My speech will reflect the views of the Bloc Québécois, of course, but also and most importantly of the people in my riding of Chambly—Borduas. Like other Quebeckers, most of them are asking some very pointed questions, first, about the reason for the mission and, second, about its success. They want answers. We expected to get some in 2006 but are still waiting. The answers we have been given lack credibility, as I will show a little later.

I am also very concerned about the fact that our opinions are divided. There are some retired generals in my riding. I am thinking of two in particular, one of whom, Mr. Rémi Landry, is very well known and highly respected and often comments in the media. Like other military personnel, they are very loyal to the democratic decisions taken by our parliaments. They will always defend these positions in the field, not only the kinds of missions they were assigned but also the argument for them—which they also do very well.

These people cannot be blamed, therefore, for having very specific views and biases about the duties they were assigned in the past and still defend today. With all due respect for both these people, who still serve the country very well, and also democratic debate, I believe we have a responsibility in regard to two things. First, we need to look at what the purpose was of our presence in Afghanistan, and second, we need to ask whether or not we have been successful and whether there are still good reasons for our military involvement.

This question was asked by the parliamentary secretary a little while ago. He said Canadians want to know why we are in Afghanistan. He was quite right to say they still want to know because no answers have been forthcoming. The answers we have been given do not hold water.

I would like to remind the House that it was in response to the events of September 11 that Canada became involved in Afghanistan under the aegis of the United Nations and that it was originally the United States which called upon the other nations to show a united front to the people probably responsible for the offensive of September 11, 2001. The purpose of the operation—as I said before—was to help the Northern Alliance advance on Kabul and replace the Afghan government. The objective was literally to rebuild the economy and form a viable democratic state in Afghanistan so that Afghans could run their own country and determine their development.

This was based not on the 3 Ds but the 4 Ds because in addition to defence, there was development, democracy and diplomacy.

Have we kept that balance? That is always the basis of the debates here in the House of Commons. To achieve these objectives, Canada made a commitment to keep the majority of our troops in the field until February 2007. It is appropriate to recall each stage because there was nothing to allay our concerns about the relevance of our presence.

This is the third or fourth time that this has been debated. When the Conservatives were in opposition, they had the same concerns as the three opposition parties do now. It is troubling now to see the lack of credible answers from the Conservatives. It is even less credible because on their own they have changed the nature of the mission in mid-course. It must be a balanced mission to establish democracy, diplomacy and development. The remarks this afternoon have brought to light the fact that, only a few months ago, of the 2,500 Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, six military personnel were assigned to deal with development and another six were working on diplomacy.

I will come back to that because some extraordinary things have been said here. Regardless of their ingenuity, how can six people assigned to development for a period of about six years build 4,000 schools when we have not seen any? How can they claim to have built thousands of kilometres of new roads when only these resources have been assigned to all the engineering of roads? Those are questions that arise today; the same questions that were asked previously and that were never answered. They try to answer today but those answers do not hold water.

On May 17, 2006, in great haste, the government introduced a motion to extend the mission that was supposed to end in February 2007. We remember that. The vote in this House on extending the mission to February 2009 was very divided, to such a degree that the difference was only four votes: 149 members voted in favour of extending the mission from February 2007 to February 2009, and 145 voted against the motion.

In Quebec, people are asking questions. Indeed, 70% of the population of Quebec is against our presence in Afghanistan and they feel it is a shame that they did not elect another five Bloc Québécois members, because then we would have won the vote and the matter would be settled. We lost by four votes. The Liberal Party also voted against extending the mission at that point. In fact, the Liberals were divided among themselves with the result that the Conservatives won by four votes. It all happened May 17, 2006.

On April 19, 2007, the Liberals presented a motion to the House to have the mission end in February 2009. Since the government had a minority and the opposition had a majority, we immediately wanted to make our position clear, failing any credible responses to help us understand the evolution of the mission in Afghanistan in relation to the initial objectives. Unfortunately, the responses were not forthcoming. Then, beyond all expectations, the NDP voted with the Conservatives. The vote on the motion that was presented on April 19, 2007, was held on April 24. We could have decided that day to stop everything in February 2009, but no, the NDP voted with the Conservatives to make sure that did not happen.

Today, here we are having this debate again. As odd as it may seem, the NDP is now saying we have to vote immediately and as soon as the vote is won, the troops have to be pulled out of Afghanistan and brought home.

Demobilizing combat troops is not as easy as packing up a camp site. This does not happen in a day. It takes at least six months. Such is the result of the NDP's vote. It is not a simple matter.

Earlier I was mentioning that there are 2,500 soldiers there. The three Ds are democracy, diplomacy and development. There are 12 people in total to take care of all that. This produces little in the way of results and does not support the Conservatives' argument.

They say that 4,000 schools have been built. That is a lot. In Canada, that would be a major construction project. How did they do that? Maybe they were small schools, I do not know, but there needs to be infrastructure in any event. We are told there were clinics, wells and an irrigation system. We have not seen anything of the sort. We want to believe it, but everything we have been told has turned out to be false. In wartime, it is said that the primary victim is the truth. And the truth, as a victim, is under attack by the statements being made here. It is quite worrisome.

This is why the Bloc Québécois cannot give a blank cheque to keep this going, given the negative effects it has on Canada.

The parliamentary secretary says that we are there for two reasons: for Afghans, but especially for Canadians. I am not convinced that this benefits Canada. I would rather that he stick to telling us what positive things we are doing over there.

Earlier I mentioned poppy production, which has grown threefold since we have been in Afghanistan. But one of our tasks there is to eradicate poppies. How are we managing to do the opposite? As I mentioned earlier, it is because truth is the first victim. This is yet more proof.

I also said earlier that the Conservatives have hijacked the actual mission. It is very negative, as we all know. It has turned into an offensive mission instead of a reconstruction mission.

It is difficult to follow the logic and reasoning of each of the parties here in this House. Members will remember that in April 2007, the Liberals were the ones who introduced the motion to end the mission in February 2009. For several months, the Liberals have been repeating that they did not want to go past February 2009. What happened in the past few days to make them do an about-face and jump on board with the Conservatives? They say that there are differences they are trying to make clear, but we do not see them. The end result is that the Liberals agree with the Conservatives that the mission should go to 2011. And earlier I spoke about the NDP's position.

We are maintaining our position for all the reasons I have mentioned. They are trying to drag us in and make us accept that there will be effects or collateral damage, for example. But 78 soldiers have died over there. That is not nothing. We support these people. They are over there because we, as parliamentarians, sent them there.

They do their jobs well, with dedication and loyalty. The Bloc has tremendous respect and admiration for all members of the military. Not only are people who risk their lives for others especially generous, but they also have exceptional, exemplary courage. It must be said. All the same, we must not continue to expose them to danger once we realize that the mission objectives have not been achieved. That would be irresponsible. That, too, must be said.

No soldier over there who goes into the field and risks his or her life would come back here and say it was all for nothing. They believe they are doing something important, and they are. However, in the final analysis, we are the ones putting them in harm's way. It is up to us to figure out if we are putting them in danger for no good reason. That comes first.

To date, we have put lives at risk on the basis of guesses and falsehoods, many of which have been made and told right here. We should not have the mindset that because we are over there, we have to keep going until the Taliban are all extinct. We could end up being there a very long time.

We have to remember that this is costing us $3 million per day, which is not peanuts. Are we investing that money appropriately? We do not think that $3 million should be spent on offensive action, on combat, because that is not our strength. We should invest the money in reconstruction and in adjusting the balance of the mission, as recommended in the Manley report.

The Manley commission was very critical of the Conservatives' militaristic approach. We have not talked about that enough here. Let us take another look at the report. It came to the same conclusion we did, and it confirmed that we need to restore balance to the mission. According to the report:

It is essential to adjust funding and staffing imbalances between the heavy Canadian military commitment in Afghanistan and the comparatively lighter civilian commitment to reconstruction—

That is what it says. We have not been talking about that here. These people went to Afghanistan to study this issue. They came to the same conclusion we did. They said that we have to do more in terms of reconstruction, development and governance. The report makes it clear that the insurrection will not be quelled by force alone. Furthermore, the report repeatedly recommended that diplomatic measures be pursued with neighbouring countries to include them in Afghanistan's development.

It is a thinly veiled criticism of Canada's leadership in that regard. No one will say so. That is the cornerstone. All that is overlooked. We pretend that this does not exist, as though this work had not been done. The Conservatives will pick and choose whatever suits them to try to convince us that we must continue on the same path. Yet the report clearly says that we must rebalance the mission in all areas.

I will close by reminding hon. members that, in Afghanistan, one in four children will not live past the age of five. The life expectancy in Afghanistan is 45 years. It is one of the lowest in the world. Malnutrition affects 70% of the population and more than 70% of the population does not have access to clean drinking water. The majority of the population has inadequate access to health care and education. Among the women surveyed, 40% have been physically abused by a member of their immediate or extended family. There is one doctor for every 770 Afghans, although there is one soldier for every 742 Afghans.

Has anything changed? Has any progress been made in this file? No, not a word. I would like to hear the Conservatives address this.

What will this change if we continue? The responsible position would be to withdraw the combat troops and rebalance the mission to make it a development mission. I would remind the House that the 1,000 soldiers that some people would like to add to the forces would not be assigned to reconstruction, but to combat. Thus, it does not change a thing.

And this is what the Liberals rallied around. It is incomprehensible. It is an unbelievable flip-flop. Only a few days ago, they said that the mission must end in 2009, yet here they are supporting the Conservatives to extend the mission until 2011.

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9:35 p.m.

Edmonton Centre Alberta

Conservative

Laurie Hawn ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to the member's speech and I was amazed at the member's utter lack of understanding of what is actually going on in Afghanistan and the misinformation that he is labouring under. He says that we have 2,500 soldiers over there, 6 of whom are with CIDA and 6 of whom are with DFAIT. In fact, those are civilians and not soldiers at all.

When he talks about the projects that have been undertaken, yes, if they were being conducted by six or twelve civilians the progress we have made would have been unbelievable. The fact is that those projects are being conducted by Canadian soldiers. They are the ones out there in the villages getting irrigation systems going, helping to build schools and helping with medical clinics.

He said that most of the Afghan people do not have access to health care. That is just flat not true. Eighty-three per cent of Afghans have access to basic health care compared to less than 10% five years ago.

The member is completely misinformed about what is going on there. I suspect that it is because he is either simply misinformed or he has another agenda. He talked about over 100 Canadian deaths in Afghanistan. That is absolutely not true. There have been 80, including 1 civilian. If he would get his facts right he might have a little more credibility standing up in this House and presenting arguments.

I could go on and on. There has been a 22% decrease in infant mortality. Forty thousand Afghan babies do not die in childbirth every year because Canada is there and Canadian soldiers are there providing health care to Afghans, along with the rest of our allies.

The mission is in balance. If he would get out of just the Kandahar province and look at all 34 provinces in the country of Afghanistan he would see that there is tremendous balance in the mission. Kandahar is the toughest nut, there is no question, but that is specifically why Canada is there, because our folks are the best. They have been doing a heck of a job and he should acknowledge that, but I fear he will not.

If he wants to look at some of the development projects he can go to Google Earth and have a look. It is right there provided by the satellites.

I would like to ask the member one question. What does he think the role of the Taliban is in our ability to carry out reconstruction projects or our ability to put more energy toward those things, which we are putting energy to but he does not realize it? What does he think the role of the Taliban is in all of this?

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9:40 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Speaker, the parliamentary secretary should have listened to what I said. First, I did say that 78 troops had lost their lives. Second, I never said that there had been no progress in terms of healthcare. I reported what the percentages are at present. That situation, and I will not come back to it in detail, is still a harsh reality there.

The progress made is not due to the troops who are there now, because most of them are assigned to combat. In fact, few of them are assigned to reconstruction. I am not saying that the intention is not there, but that is not the work being done at present.

It is unfortunate that the member is instead trying to defend this mission at all costs, by arguing and not hearing what we are saying. It would be much preferable if he would give us answers to our questions. He has not given any.

This afternoon, I believe it was him who talked about 4,000 schools in six years. I do not know whether Canada, with the infrastructure, equipment and engineering at its disposal, would be able to build 4,000 schools in six years. It is an even greater challenge in a devastated country, unless we are converting houses into schools and doing things like that. That may be the case, but that is not what he is saying. He is saying that the troops have built 4,000 schools in six years. It is time to correct that, if it was misspoken, but it was most certainly what he said.

It is that kind of statement that takes all credibility away from the information the member is giving us here.

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9:40 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

Mr. Speaker, what a sad diatribe it is and how sad it must be for the hon. member opposite to live in such a world where everything is seen as a negative and reality is often overwhelmed by the negative stories that are conjured up in the local and national press. However, the reality on the ground in Afghanistan, from the people I have talked to and the people in my riding who have been there, is that it is far different than what the hon. member is describing.

Maybe we should not be surprised that the member has wrapped himself in the cloak of negativity since he does come from a party that does not even realize how wonderful it is to live in such a country as Canada and does not understand why these men and women are going over there and standing up for this country in the first place.

My colleague asked the member, “what are your solutions to the problem?” It is not all right in this debate, where we are trying to transcend some of the partisanship, to just stand and do the typical political move, which is to dodge around the question. We want an answer. What is it that you see as the solution?

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9:45 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

Order, please. I let the hon. member go once with the second person but then he did it again. The hon. member for Chambly—Borduas.