House of Commons Hansard #66 of the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was troops.

Topics

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12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

Mr. Speaker, I want to join in thanking the member for Sault Ste. Marie for his reflective comments today. In one of his questions he turned the tables a bit on us because he used his speech to put questions, and now I suppose in the time for questions and comments we have to give him the answers.

One of the questions he put to the House referred to a suggestion by one of the faith-based groups about the mission changing and being not so much a search and destroy mission but one of providing security. I would ask him if he does not see that within this resolution. That was part of the Liberal amendment that has been adopted by the government: that the mission does change from primarily counter-insurgency to one of providing security and training and of permitting the diplomacy and development aspects of the three Ds approach to work.

That is what I see when I look at the integrity or totality of this motion: that it is changing the mission and providing an end date for the mission so that it is not a perpetual escalation of the conflict.

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12:40 p.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Mr. Speaker, I do appreciate the member recognizing what I am doing here, which is to actually enter into a debate and dialogue among us about some of this. I think that is really important. It provides a way for us to disagree, perhaps, but respectfully.

I would suggest that one of the big problems that is going to flow out of this resolution, which I think you probably understand but perhaps have not come to terms with yet, is that you differ fundamentally with what the Conservatives think this resolution is all about. You think it is going to change this mission and that somehow, with these extra 1,000 troops and more artillery, we are now going to suddenly enter into more of a negotiation and reconciliation type of operation there.

I suggest that this is not what the government is thinking. That is not what the government has in mind. You may have signed on to something that perhaps, and I say this with all respect and humility, you do not fully appreciate. I think it is something that you have to work out and think about here tonight, because the decision that we make here tonight, however difficult, between the two of you and--

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12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Order. I think the hon. member for Sault Ste. Marie is using the second person a little too much. We are supposed to address comments through the Chair and not directly to other MPs. Also, his time was up for that response anyway. We will move on to another question now, from the hon. member for Lac-Saint-Louis.

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12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Mr. Speaker, when the previous member spoke, she brought in the idea of photographs and what she had seen in photographs. A little red light went on for me, because photographs can be used to justify one or both positions.

However, in relation to the hon. member's comments, he made a lot of comparisons that I am not sure I agree with. Comparing the behaviour of the Soviet military in Afghanistan to the behaviour of our military raises some question marks. The Soviet military was not under the command of a democratic government. There is much more oversight in regard to our military.

Comparing Afghanistan to Northern Ireland raises some questions as well. It is certainly an interesting topic of discussion, but I do not think that we should not be making these broad comparisons back and forth.

What I would really like to know is his party's real position on Afghanistan, because in my riding people think that the NDP stands for closing the door, turning the key and leaving tomorrow morning. I am not getting that sense any more in listening to the hon. member. I heard the previous hon. member from the NDP talk about a safe transitional withdrawal. I have a feeling that the hon. members of the NDP are starting to muddy the waters a bit. I am quite concerned about that.

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12:45 p.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think the waters that are muddied are between the Liberals and the Conservatives in terms of what this resolution actually says and where it is going to take us. We have never said to cut and run. We have never said to walk away. We have never said to leave Afghanistan to whatever comes next. We have never said that--

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12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

That's what people think.

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12:45 p.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

That is what people think because that is what the Liberals tell people we are saying. That is what the media tells people that we are saying. That is what the Conservatives tell people that we are saying. That is not what we are saying.

As I suggested this morning when I presented my case before the House, people need to listen thoughtfully, in a reflective way, to what I have to say, and also respectfully, so that they might understand what we are saying and how important it is that we look at places in the world where in fact reconciliation has happened and negotiation has been successful, such as Northern Ireland.

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12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Mr. Speaker, my question for the member is in regard to the NDP's position that we should immediately and completely withdraw our military forces from Afghanistan. The NDP's position is that we unilaterally and immediately withdraw all of these forces.

One of two things would follow from that. Either we would leave our diplomatic and development workers in Afghanistan to face a very uncertain security situation or, in the interests of their own security, we would withdraw our diplomats and development aid workers and return to a policy of isolationism.

I do not see the logic in the NDP's position. It entails either a policy of isolationism, where we are not engaged with diplomacy, defence or development work or, on the other hand, it means we are going to attempt naively to try to accomplish development work and diplomacy without defence.

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12:45 p.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Mr. Speaker, first I want to say that the member was obviously not listening to what I had to say. He was obviously not listening to the member for Windsor—Tecumseh, who spoke earlier this morning, or to many of my colleagues who have stood to say that we are not talking about abandoning Afghanistan.

We are talking about changing the mission and turning it over to leadership by the United Nations, whereby organizations such as the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, UNICEF, the UN development program, peace-building commissioners, et cetera, could be brought to the table. Those resources, with their values, could be used to actually bring some resolution that would get us to peace, liberty and freedom in Afghanistan.

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12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to have this opportunity to speak to this very important motion. In a way, this is a historic occasion for the House of Commons as it debates a mission to determine whether it should be extended or not, and above all, whether it should be modified.

About a year ago, I attended a discussion on the Afghanistan mission, which was being held across the street at the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre. On the panel were representatives from the Canadian military, the RCMP and the Canadian Red Cross and they all made good points.

What was interesting to me, and I hope my friend from Sault Ste. Marie will take notice, was when a member from the Red Cross, who, I think, was a senior Canadian Red Cross officer who had worked in Afghanistan, said that development work could not be done until security was established and was being maintained and that the non-governmental organizations did not have a peaceful place where they could do development. I think we need to take that into consideration when we consider this motion and we look at what is the best response, the best way to approach it.

I am the first one to thank the hon. John Manley and his colleagues for the report they wrote because it began a lot of very useful debate. In my riding there is no one common position nor, I would say, one favoured position. I am hearing a lot of different views from a lot of people. Some believe we should immediately cease operations and some suggest that we should see it through until the end.

I held two forums a few weeks ago in my riding and used the Manley report as a basis for discussion. I heard from the people in the riding, took their questions and answered as best I could to guide my opinion and guide my actions in Parliament. From that, within our caucus we had a very difficult and prolonged debate on the question of Afghanistan and what should be the Canadian position or the Liberal Party position. I am very pleased with what we came out with. Our leader put forward the amendments to the original Conservative motion. I think those amendments satisfied, in a responsible way, the concerns that I heard from the people in my riding. Again, not all people will be happy.

I want to tell members of the House that I am absolutely insulted when supporters of the mission point to people who do not support the mission and call on them to support the troops. Supporting the troops and supporting the decisions of government are two completely different things.

One can disagree with one's political masters and be supporting the troops. I was part of the cabinet that originally sent our troops into that region post-9/11. Canadians have a right to disagree with the decision that I made, but they are, and I see it from one end of the country to the other, fully supportive of our men and women in uniform who are serving abroad.

This all started, we we all remember, with 9/11. It is important to remind ourselves of how we got ourselves into this position and how we came to have Canadians on the ground in Afghanistan. One of our NATO partners was attacked on 9/11.

Canada is a huge country with a small population. We will never be able to defend our own security alone. We will always depend on alliances, such as NATO, the United Nations, Norad, all the international bodies that we work with, to promote security and provide for our defence. For me, NATO is the best example. It has worked very well since the second world war. It faces some challenges but it has worked very well.

One of our NATO allies was attacked with the bombing of the towers, the attack on the Pentagon and the other plane that was lost which was supposed to be going to Washington also. They were attacked by a group of terrorists who were given safe haven by a nation state in Afghanistan. The Taliban provided support to al-Qaeda operating out of its country and it refused to turn over al-Qaeda after the attack. It continued to defend al-Qaeda and the Americans, therefore, chose to attack that state.

To me, there was no decision and no choice, We are a member of NATO and the creed of NATO is that if one nation is attacked we are all attacked and we respond. So we went into Afghanistan.

Members may remember that around the same time not too long ago we were having the same sort of debate as to whether we would go to Iraq. Neither I nor the House supported going to Iraq. Some members in the House would have gone but, based on the same judgment, the same evaluation and the information provided, we did not go. I think the member for Sault Ste. Marie raised a lot of points that needed to be considered before going into an armed conflict.

However, we are in Afghanistan and we have destabilized the Taliban government. We are now in the position where, if we were to leave, we would create a void, not just us but NATO, and all those people we helped and who helped us and who cooperated with us would be left unprotected. I believe there would be a slaughter there and heads would literally roll.

Therefore, for me, to immediately leave Afghanistan is not a question. I think that is the NDP position and I cannot support that.

I felt that the Conservative position in the original motion put forward was also stupid on many levels, the first being that it had no change in the mission and we could not foresee an end. There was no way to measure the goal as to where we were going.

However, the most stupid part of the motion was that the Minister of Defence told the House that he was looking for people to replace us. He said that he was calling on NATO for some assistance in the region but, at the same time, there was a non-confidence motion in the House on continuing the mission. That was not putting a lot of pressure on our allies within NATO because they knew that if he lost the motion they did not have to worry too much about it because there would be an election anyway in Canada, and if he won the motion, then we would be staying there. So that did not work.

We put forward an amendment to the motion, which I thought was responsible, and the government changed its motion in accordance to the amendment put forward by our leader.

At the end of the day, we have the NDP that would cut and run out of Afghanistan and the Conservatives who would cut and paste from our motion. The cut and paste works for me.

The amendment does a couple of the essential things that we wanted. It tells Canadians when our troops will be out of Kandahar and it gives us an end date. It also changes the mission. Those things need to work together. We cannot leave Afghanistan until we have established some security that will permit the treaty approach to work. We will then have additional development and better diplomacy.

The motion mentions that included in that security is the improvement of their armed forces, their police, their justice system and their corrections system so they can have some elements of democracy. We cannot expect that in two, three or ten years they will have a system that will parallel ours or that will be equal to ours. Our system is a lot better than it was 50 years ago but in 50 years Canadians will think we were Neanderthals because they will have improved the institutions of democracy some more. I have confidence in that. It will be the job of these pages, as they go forward, to make those improvements.

One of the things I discussed when I held those forums was whether this was a discussion for Parliament. As a take note debate for informing government, I think we would all agree it is. Some, myself being maybe the last Neanderthal in that respect, do not believe that sending soldiers into war is a decision of Parliament. The government must make those decisions. However, there can be discussions and it can be informed by Parliament but, at the end of the day, I do not see a member in the House who has the information required to decide if this mission can be successful, what it takes for that mission or how long it should be.

The government cannot tell me, and it should not tell me, all the secret information that is available to the Chief of Defence Staff, to the Minister of Defence, to the Prime Minister and to the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Telling me would indicate to our enemies how the information gets to us. It would put our allies and our troops at risk and would not help but hinder us. However, I am one of the few who thinks that way. Even at those forums I made the suggestion that such an important decision should be put forward in a referendum, that it should be the most direct of democracies and that a lot of the information for those who wish to be informed can be informed.

We had good discussions. We did not have 100% agreement in any area but people brought those ideas forward and defended them quite well.

As I mentioned previously, I was uncomfortable with the original position of my party and, before we introduced the amendment, we had a lot of suggestions.

One of the things that is important is that we are not telling the military how to do its operation. We tell them the objective and the goal and the Chief of Defence Staff and his subordinates do what they need to do to carry it out.

We wanted to go to more of a security mission rather than a search and destroy but what do we need to do to provide security to a region? If it means doing some sorties and taking out the threat wherever it may exist, that is a decision for the military, not for politicians.

Our decision as politicians should be setting the goal of the mission. The Chief of Defence Staff should tell us what he needs to do it, whether the objective that we have given him is possible, whether it can be achieved, yes or no, and, if it can, what they need to do it. We then come to a decision as to whether we can provide what is needed.

That being said, the rest of it is out of the hands of politicians.

What is important, and it is mentioned in the motion, is transparency, which is part of Manley's report and part of our amendment. Canadians, through its institutions, need to be aware of how the mission is proceeding, not the secret elements, but they do need to know. That is part of the Manley report and part of the motion and we are hoping that it will be respected.

If we look at the newspapers today, we will see that on the question of detainees, commissions need to be set up that will cost $2 million to get the information that the government could readily hand over but is refusing. We see that in Le Devoir and the Globe and Mail and it is unacceptable. The government must take that transparency element responsibly.

One of the things that needs to be considered when the Chief of Defence Staff does a mission like this, or the government, is the ability of the Taliban and al-Qaeda to resupply. We need to know who is supplying them and whether we can we cut those areas off. We also need to know what we need from the other countries that are helping us, the other countries in the region. We also need to know our diplomatic role. Maybe we need to increase our diplomatic role in that region and, hopefully, we will see that flow through. That was also talked about in the Manley report.

Other elements that often come when we have a mission of this importance is the management of the mission, and that is an area in which government does have a role. We need to ensure that we are administering our operations in an area like that in a responsible manner.

I do not have all the answers and I do not know what we need, but I remember a while back reading in the paper that we needed tanks over there. I still have difficulty understanding that because we are not facing tanks or artillery. We are facing arms, but we are facing mostly terrorism-type arms. However, we sent tanks over and then decided we needed to rent a bunch of second-hand tanks from European countries because they were necessary for Afghanistan. That was a very expensive procurement project. I read later on that those tanks would not be available during the mission. Some of them would be repaired rather quickly but it would still be two or three years before we would get them.

Those are questions that can be better handled by the parliamentary committee. In true transparency, those questions can be brought forward and we can be advised on them. Maybe there are legitimate answers, but it seems unreasonable that we are in a position like that.

We also have the question of the cost. I read in the paper this week, as we would all have, that we were $1 billion over budget on the Afghan effort. The difficult discussion for me is not on the money. The difficult discussion is on whether or not we send our troops into battle.

If we decide to send the troops into battle, I hope the questions I posed as to whether we can achieve our mission and whether we have what is necessary to do the mission will have been properly answered. And, if we do make the commitment, we must supply our troops with whatever they need, at whatever cost.

However, it is the responsibility of the government to tell Canadians as it comes along. We can be surprised by $10 million but we should not be surprised by $1 billion. We need to know the ongoing cost, whether we have prepared and budgeted for it and what we will need to do in the future to sustain these activities.

They will not get cheaper by 2011 and 2012. Do we have the resources? I saw the budgets lately. As a result of the choices made by the two previous governments and by the Minister of Finance, the fiscal latitude within the budget is very slim. We are getting near a deficit. Do we have the ability to finance this further? Do we have the ability to finance supplies? Can this lead us toward a deficit?

Another question was raised about the 1,000 troops. Where did that number come from? Is it exactly 1,000? I do not have confidence that 1,000 troops are enough, but I understand from the report that this is the minimum requirement. Where are we with that?

We have been asking the government for over a year to advise NATO that the end of our term was coming up and that it should be making arrangements for our replacement. The government completely refused. It has now brought forward a motion indicating that we will remain there, in some capacity, for the next two years.

We still do not know what country is going to provide those troops in Kandahar. The newspapers indicate that France is willing to send more people, but I understand they will be sent to eastern Afghanistan where it already has some assets rather than the Kandahar region.

Good management requires transparency. The government cannot bring these matters to the House half-heartedly. The government has placed this motion before the House, so that the House can take responsibility for extending the mission, but it has not given us any information. At least we have a reasonable time for debate. The first time the government did this, we had three hours of debate.

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1 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

How many debates did you give us? Zero.

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1 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

Mr. Speaker, I am getting questions before the allotted period.

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1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

The hon. member for West Nova will have an opportunity to answer questions and comments in about three minutes when his speech is finished.

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1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

Mr. Speaker, I am looking forward to the questions so I may wrap up early.

The member raised the point that when we were in government, the decisions were taken by the government and not the House, and that is true. Take note debates were held in the House on these missions and the government was advised accordingly.

I would argue, as I did earlier, that this is the responsible way to do it. The government can be informed by the House as it can by the committees, but the responsibility at the end of the day is one of the government. One can delegate authority but never responsibility.

I watched the Prime Minister try to duck and dive and say that Professor Johnston will look at the terms of the Schreiber inquiry and he will accept the terms. The Prime Minister named the commissioner. The Prime Minister indicates the terms of a public inquiry. That is the law in Canada.

An activity of the military is a responsibility of the government. The government administers and manages. The minister of national defence, the minister of external affairs, the cabinet, and the prime minister in some governments get involved. I doubt if we could get that many people involved in the decisions under the current circumstances, but it is a government decision. That is the way it is done.

There should be transparency, a review by parliament, questioning by parliament, and work by committees. That is the logical way to approach these things.

I will be supporting the motion on the understanding that there will be a change in the way the mission operates, a change toward security, an end date for Canadians to leave, turning over responsibilities to other nations for the more active combat role, doing some training for the institutions required for security within Afghanistan, and permitting development and diplomacy to take place so that enduring peace can be achieved for Afghanistan, particularly the Kandahar region.

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1:05 p.m.

Edmonton Centre Alberta

Conservative

Laurie Hawn ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence

Mr. Speaker, there are a few things that the member and I are a little fuzzy on, but I think we agree on most things.

My colleague talked about the House informing the government and so on. I would like to point out that we will have had 30 hours of debate on this issue, with more than 100 people debating. Nobody can say that we have not been open and transparent in allowing people to comment on the mission.

There have been 15 technical briefings on this mission since 2002, 14 by this government and one by the Liberals when they were government. Our ministers of national defence have made 17 appearances before parliamentary committees, so nobody can say we have not done that.

With respect to the military police complaints commission, it has been given access to everything, whether by subpoena or whether asked. There is no difference. This is the political agenda of somebody else and I think I know where it is coming from.

With respect to the tanks, they were sent there to save Canadian lives and Afghan lives, and they have done that. The original Leopards lacked cooling and lacked some other things. Those have been replaced by the tanks we have initially rented. These tanks are doing a great job. The longer term acquisition of tanks takes a while. It is a good program.

We are talking about changing the mission. We have been doing the training and development all the way along. It has been accelerating as we have gone along, but it needs to accelerate more. That is why we are doing that. Somebody else gets to vote on how that is conducted and that is the Taliban.

I would like to ask my hon. colleague, how does he view the Taliban's participation in this whole project and the influence it will have on how we conduct our mission?

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1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

Mr. Speaker, I remind the member that the question of transparency is not necessarily the appearance of a minister but the willing participation of the same and telling the truth. The Minister of National Defence had to be changed and had to apologize for misleading the House.

On the question of the detainees, we have had a lot of misinformation and a lot had to change. That is not what I would call transparency.

On the question of the Taliban, I had difficulty providing support. It was in the media that I had difficulty when the position was taken that we would take a non-combat role. I could not explain to anybody what a non-combat role in a theatre of war meant when the people we are up against are armed.

That is why I am much more comfortable with the amendment to the motion that was proposed by my party's leader that talks about increasing the role of security but leaving the operational matters to the military on the ground. Whatever it has to do to provide security there, that is the military's responsibility. It is not a political decision.

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1:10 p.m.

NDP

Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am cognizant of the fact that I am participating in the debate in a week when we have lost the 80th soldier, so let me begin by acknowledging the dedication and courage of the men and women in the Canadian Forces, and to express my sincere condolences to the families and friends of those who have died.

The debate that is currently before the House is one that none of us are participating in lightly. When we are asking Canadians to put their lives on the line, it is imperative that we go into this afternoon's vote, on the motion that is before us, after having deliberated on all of the opinions that have been expressed not just in this country and in the House but, indeed, right across the world.

Just yesterday in the foreign affairs committee, Mr. Manley appeared and made it quite clear that even he agreed, and he is the author of the commission obviously, that the conflict in that region would not be resolved militarily, that we need to seek a diplomatic end. Similarly, President Karzai, Afghan parliamentarians, and aid groups have all spoken of the need to kickstart dialogue to bring about a lasting peace.

Sixty-five per cent of Afghans say that disarmament is the most important step toward improving security in Afghanistan. Even the former deputy minister of foreign affairs, Gordon Smith, recently said, “What is needed is a process of substantial conversion or reorientation of anti-state elements into an open and non-violent political dynamic”.

In light of the fact that there is a widespread consensus that the counterinsurgency mission is not able to create the conditions that bring about security and stability or to improve the lives of the Afghan people, I have to ask the member opposite, why would he call on Canada to continue on the path of war instead of joining with us in the NDP in our call to build a new path to a lasting peace and security?

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1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

Mr. Speaker, I have to live in this universe. I do not know that universe. I do not know about the black hole that one goes through and finds on the other side where everybody is perfect, where we talk to the Taliban, and they agree that they will no longer have a fundamentalist, religious government where they do not give rights to everybody in their country, the women and children, that they will be peaceful, that everything will be good, and that the warlords will not try to make millions and billions of dollars through the production of heroin. I do not understand that world.

What I know is that members of Parliament have a responsibility for the security of our country. That is done through international organizations like NATO. We have a responsibility to the people of Afghanistan because of the destabilization in their country. If we take the military role out of Afghanistan, there will be a slaughter of all those who helped us in trying to change their country. I understand that.

We have a responsibility to NATO and to our fighting women and men who are in Afghanistan, so we must take a reasoned approach. After a lot of debate in my caucus and more debate in the House, this motion is the best way that we can achieve long term peace and stability in that region of the world.

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1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I compliment my colleague on his fine speech.

Our hearts go out to the families of the recently deceased Canadian Forces members. On behalf of all of us, I echo my colleague from the NDP that we are all deeply appreciative and most grateful for the heroic efforts of our Canadian Forces members in Afghanistan.

For the last two years many of the essential issues with respect to Afghanistan have not been dealt with: the internal political reformation that has to occur between tribes; an integrated regional working group that involves Iran, Pakistan, India, Afghanistan and the CIS states; an absence of focus on the part of CIDA; the fact that some of the four pillars of Afghanistan security have to be dealt with, which I believe are an end point, namely, Afghanistan police, army, judiciary and corrections; and finally, whether personnel are sufficient in number, have sufficient training and sufficient pay. Why on earth these have been left in limbo, to not be touched, is an affront to the mission, an affront to our troops, and an affront to NATO.

The facts show that over the last two years our government has not pulled its weight in NATO and pushed our NATO partners to do what is required on the other elements. While our troops are out there spilling their blood on the ground to do their very best, which they have done, the other elements of the mission have been shirked and ignored, underfunded and unfocused without any adequate planning.

I ask my colleague, while we have worked together well to implement a motion that will be passed, that will be focused, that will deal with a realistic outcome, which is to enable the Afghan people to take charge of their own security so Afghanistan in the end will be ultimately what the Afghan people want it to be, does he not think that the government should focus on all of the pillars of Afghan security and development, and put the feet to the fire of not only NATO but also Mr. Karzai's government and the culture of impunity and corruption that has to be dealt with?

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1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

Mr. Speaker, what is raised by the member are those elements we have to work toward if we want that long term peace and security, not just in Afghanistan, but in the region.

Mr. Manley speaks of a senior envoy in the region where people in the region would know that this person would represent the interests of Canada. He would be the Prime Minister's envoy, and if he were meeting with the leadership, they would understand that all the powers that he needs were with him to achieve those things. So, if they require assistance, if they want Canada's participation, there would be minimum requirements.

One of the areas that continues to be an issue is the treatment by Afghanistan of the detainees. It is not acceptable to Canadians that Canadian soldiers risk their lives, capture these Taliban insurgents, treat them decently, turn them over to the correctional system, and then they are treated below the standards acceptable to the Canadian military or the Canadian people. That would be another example.

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1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Winnipeg North.

I rise today to support the motion regarding Canada's future role in Afghanistan. It is not a Liberal or Conservative motion. It is a Canadian motion. It sets out the mandate to our allies, to the Afghan people and to our Canadian Forces.

The motion reaffirms Canada's position as a leader among the community of nations. To be sure, Canada is not the only leader among the community of nations, but it can certainly count itself as one of the world's leading nations. That is why we are one of the 50 founding members of the United Nations and one of the 12 founding members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. That is why we are one of the 19 founding members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. That is why we are a member of the G-8.

With leadership, comes responsibility, for responsibility is the price of leadership, a responsibility to be engaged in world affairs, a responsibility to multilateral engagement, a responsibility to the United Nations, a responsibility to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, a responsibility to give generously of our foreign aid, a responsibility to our citizens to protect their security and many would add, a responsibility to protect. This is the price of being a world leader. That is why Canada is the second largest contributor to the Commonwealth and the second largest contributor to la Francophonie. That is why Canada is the seventh largest contributor to the regular budget of the United Nations. That is why over decades Canada has contributed thousands of soldiers to peacekeeping operations in dozens of United Nations led missions.

Canada is a leader in the world and with this leadership, comes responsibility. We have a responsibility to the United Nations to be in Afghanistan. Our mission in Afghanistan operates under a number of UN resolutions, the primary one of which is resolution 1267, which demands that the Taliban ceases activities and support of international terrorism. This UN resolution has been subsequently supported and reinforced by other UN resolutions, including resolution 1333 in the year 2000, resolution 1390 in 2002, resolution 1455 in 2003, resolution 1526 in 2004, resolution 1617 in 2005 and resolution 1735 in 2006.

The United Nations has not just passed one or two resolutions, but a total of seven resolutions on Afghanistan.

As a founding member of the United Nations, we have a responsibility to uphold these UN resolutions. That is why we are in Afghanistan.

Canada is a leader in the world and with leadership, comes responsibility. We have a responsibility to NATO to be in Afghanistan.

On April 4, 1949, Canada agreed to article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty which states:

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

On September 11, 2001, the United States, a NATO member, was attacked by an al-Qaeda cell supported by the Taliban in Afghanistan. On March 11, 2004, another NATO member was attacked by an al-Qaeda inspired terrorist cell when the Madrid subway system was bombed. On July 7, 2005, the United Kingdom, yet still another NATO member, was attacked when another al-Qaeda inspired terrorist cell bombed the Tube.

Article 5 states that an attack against one member shall be considered an attack against all NATO members Article 5 also states that each NATO member has an obligation to assist the member attacked and to take any and all means necessary, including force, to restore and maintain the security of North America and Europe.

Canada's word and its honour is in that NATO treaty. The word and honour of Canadians long gone is in that treaty. On April 4, 1949, those Canadians stood for Canada. They gave Canada's solemn word to uphold article 5. We must uphold article 5 or else we forgo our own word and our own honour and our word and our honour means little.

As founding members of NATO, we have a responsibility to support article 5 of the treaty, and that is why we are in Afghanistan.

As Canadians, we lead the world in terms of social outcomes and wealth. Canadians live in one of the wealthiest societies in the world. With wealth and leadership, come responsibility, responsibility to give generously of our foreign aid. Canada ranks among Afghanistan's top five donors, and Afghanistan is the single largest recipient nation of Canadian aid.

Over the 10 year period from 2001 to 2011, Canada will have contributed over $1 billion in aid. This aid assists Afghans as they seek to rebuild shattered dreams and lives, disrupted by decades of violence.

We live in one of the wealthiest nations of the world and wealthy nations have a responsibility to provide foreign aid to impoverished nations. Afghanistan is one of the most impoverished nations in the world, and that is why we are in Afghanistan. None of this aid is possible without the security and defence provided by Canadian Forces, and that is why the Canadian Forces are in Afghanistan.

We, as the elected representatives of the Canadian people in the House of Commons, are here to provide leadership. With this leadership, comes a responsibility to ensure the security of our citizens, a responsibility to protect our citizens from threats both domestic and foreign and a responsibility to protect our citizens from terrorist threats.

In the years leading up to 2001 the Taliban in Afghanistan provided a safe haven to the al-Qaeda network, which used Afghanistan to plan, to train and to deploy their attacks. We are in Afghanistan today to ensure that a Taliban government cannot return to provide a safe haven for groups like al-Qaeda to plan, train and launch their attacks on Canadian soil and on Canadian citizens.

As the elected leaders of Canada, we have a responsibility to protect Canadians and lower the risk of a terrorist group based in Afghanistan striking here and endangering our citizens. That is why we are in Afghanistan.

The number of years we have been involved, the price we have paid in lives, the moneys we have spent on defence, the moneys we have spent on aid should not weaken our resolve. Success in Afghanistan will not be easy. Debates will continue, arguments will be considered, solutions will be put forward. It is essential that we uphold our responsibilities to this world, for Canadians are leaders in the world and the price of leadership is responsibility.

We must all uphold our responsibilities to the United Nations, to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, to the people of Afghanistan and to Canadians. These are the reasons why we are in Afghanistan and that is why the motion in front of the House today should be supported.

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1:25 p.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his dissertation on the reasons why we went to Afghanistan. I will not question his research on that topic because it seems to be fairly inclusive as to the details of why we went into Afghanistan, and that is an important point.

It is not the point we are debating today. The purpose of this discussion is whether we should stay on in Afghanistan. To equate the actions of a shadowy group such as al-Qaeda with its relationship to the tragic events of 2001 with the continued pursuit of a section of the Afghanistan cultural makeup, and the Pashtun and the Taliban are a part of that, is not really germane.

The germane issue is whether we should remain in Afghanistan. Regardless of why Canada went there, we have to assess the need for Canada's action there now.

How does my colleague reconcile the continued pursuit of a UN and a NATO obligation to deal in the past with what—

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1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

The hon. member for Wellington—Halton Hills.

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1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have outlined three reasons why we are in Afghanistan and why we should remain in Afghanistan.

The first reason is our commitment to the United Nations, which has passed seven resolutions with respect to Afghanistan. We have an obligation, as one of the founding members of the United Nations, to support the resolutions that have been duly passed.

The second reason is we are a member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Article 5 of that treaty obliges us to go to the support of other NATO members.

The third reason why we are in Afghanistan is because Canada is one of the wealthiest, richest nations among the community of nations in this world. As such, we have a responsibility to deliver foreign aid. Foreign aid cannot be delivered in Afghanistan without security. We must deliver diplomacy and development with defence. We cannot deliver diplomacy and development work without defence. That is the third reason why we are in Afghanistan.

Those are three very solid reasons why we must continue our mission in Afghanistan and why we must continue to assist those in the world much less fortunate than us.

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1:30 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of questions for my colleague.

If we were interested in saving lives and putting the responsibility to protect something as more than a tome and series of words, but breathing life into it, we would be in the Congo. Every month 30,000 people are being slaughtered, gang raped and mutilated. The mass murder of civilians occurs month in and month out, and the government has done nothing.

Perhaps we would be in Zimbabwe wherein living conditions have plummeted. That country now has the lowest lifespan in the world. The average woman lives to a mere 34 years and a man 37 years. What has the Canadian government done? Nothing. It has ignored Zimbabwe completely, while people are dying of preventable causes.

If Canada were interested in terrorism, al-Qaeda has not been in Afghanistan for years. We find the al-Qaeda in the Horn of Africa, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, North Africa and Algeria.

Why does the member's government not start to make a full court press with other international partners to deal with the underlying issues of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the support for repressive regimes in the Middle East, and why is the influence of the Taliban increasing, not decreasing?