House of Commons Hansard #98 of the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was prices.

Topics

Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

3:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Question No. 231Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

3:25 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

With respect to on-reserve educational facilities for First Nations in Canada: (a) what requests for capital building expenditure funding for the purposes of acquiring, building, expanding, improving or replacing educational facilities have been made from April 2000 to present; (b) which of these requests have been granted by the government and why; (c) which of these requests were denied and why; (d) what funds have been committed by the government for capital building expenditure for the purposes of acquiring, building, expanding, improving or replacing educational facilities on-reserve in each fiscal year from 2000-2001 to 2008-2009; (e) what projects are currently under way; (f) in each year since 2000, what projects have been delayed or postponed, and, if any, what were the justifications for and lengths of these delays; (g) what projects are slated to begin work in the 2008-2009 fiscal year; (h) what portion of the total cost of these projects is being funded by Indian and Northern Affairs Canada (INAC) through capital building infrastructure; (i) how many projects included additional money from a First Nation to complete the construction or for the equipping of an educational facility; (j) what projects are slated to begin work beyond the 2008-2009 fiscal year; (k) how many communities with projects identified by INAC as priority capital projects have had letters of approval issued to them; (l) since 2000, what amounts from the “Community Infrastructure” line item have been reallocated either within INAC or to other government departments; (m) why was $109 million removed from the line item “Community Infrastructure” in the INAC Performance Report for the period ending March 31, 2007; (n) how has this reallocation of funds affected on-reserve educational facilities; and (o) how was this $109 million otherwise spent by the government?

(Return tabled)

Question No. 233Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

3:25 p.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

With respect to Canada's role and contributions to the United Nations (UN) and other international peace initiatives: (a) what is Canada's assessed contribution to the UN; (b) has Canada fully paid on its assessed UN contribution for the most recent financial year; (c) how much does Canada contribute in voluntary contributions to UN funds, programmes and agencies; (d) how do these voluntary contributions compare with other contributing nations; (e) is Canada a sponsor of international treaty negotiations and, if so, which ones; (f) what are Canada's current treaty priorities, in terms of support for new and ongoing treaty negotiations; (g) does the government have a formal system for monitoring its treaty compliance; (h) what contributions has Canada made to support UN humanitarian operations and peace initiatives in Somalia; (i) what new contributions did the government make to UN humanitarian operations and peace initiatives in Sudan, Somalia, the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) and Haiti in 2007; (j) what new contributions does the government intend to make to UN humanitarian operations and peace initiatives in Sudan, Somalia, DRC and Haiti in 2008; (k) what contributions did the government make to the UN Peacebuilding Commission in 2007; (l) what contributions does the government intend to make to the UN Peacebuilding Commission in 2008; (m) what formal monitoring and evaluation systems are in place in the government to assess how Canadian financial contributions through UN humanitarian and development programmes and agencies are spent; and (n) what is the government doing to ensure Canada's compliance with UN Resolution 1325 on women, peace and security?

(Return tabled)

Question No. 236Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Gurbax Malhi Liberal Bramalea—Gore—Malton, ON

With respect to the Department of Citizenship and Immigration: (a) what has been the total departmental spending on citizenship courts, divided by line item, for each of the last ten fiscal years (i) nationally, (ii) in each province and territory, (iii) in each of the following cities: Brampton, Mississauga and Toronto, Ontario, Montréal, Quebec, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Edmonton and Calgary, Alberta and Vancouver, British Columbia; (b) how many citizenship ceremonies were performed in each of the last ten fiscal years (i) nationally, (ii) in each province and territory, (iii) in each of the following cities: Brampton, Mississauga and Toronto, Ontario, Montréal, Quebec, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Edmonton and Calgary, Alberta and Vancouver, British Columbia; and (c) how many people became Canadian citizens in each of the last ten fiscal years, (i) nationally, (ii) in each province and territory, (iii) in each of the following cities: Brampton, Mississauga and Toronto, Ontario, Montréal, Quebec, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Edmonton and Calgary, Alberta and Vancouver, British-Columbia?

(Return tabled)

Question No. 237Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

3:25 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

With respect to budgets at the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada (INAC) from 2003-2004 to 2007-2008: (a) what amount was budgeted to be spent by each provincial and territorial department in each fiscal year; (b) what amount of the total budgeted funds were returned to Treasury Board as unspent; (c) what incentives do provincial sections within INAC have to lower their spending below budgeted amounts; (d) how many INAC personnel received financial bonuses for their work in each fiscal year; (e) what were the amounts of each of these bonuses; and (f) what was the total amount spent by INAC on bonuses in each province and territory for each fiscal year?

(Return tabled)

Question No. 238Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

3:25 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

With respect to the impact that the government’s legislative crime initiatives will have on Canada’s correctional facilities: (a) what studies has the government done to assess the future need for increased inmate capacity; (b) according to studies and assessments done by, or on behalf of, the government, will there be a need for increased inmate capacity in Canada’s correctional system; (c) what plans are in place to have new prisons built in Canada; (d) where are new facilities to be located; (e) are there plans for future correctional facilities that do not have a location finalized at this point; (f) how does the government go about determining where correctional facilities will be located; (g) to what extent is there private sector involvement in the operations of Canada’s correctional facilities; (h) are there Canadian correctional facilities that are fully operated by the private sector and, if so, where and by whom are these facilities operated; and (i) has the government considered, done studies on, had studies commissioned on or consulted with other jurisdictions on expanding the role of the private sector in the operation of Canada’s correctional facilities?

(Return tabled)

Question No. 239Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

With regard to the Temporary Foreign Worker Program, for each year the Program has been in operation, broken down by province, what is: (a) the total number of workers admitted under the Program; (b) the average processing time for successful applications; (c) the total number of workers admitted under the Program for jobs in the oil and gas sector; and (d) the average processing time for workers admitted under the Program for jobs in the oil and gas sector?

(Return tabled)

Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all remaining questions be allowed to stand.

Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

Is that agreed?

Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

3:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Members' Right to Freedom of Speech in Parliamentary ProceedingsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege, notice of which I had provided to you a few days ago while you were deliberating on another related matter. I thank you for allowing me to rise today, now that the other matter has concluded. It involves the right of free speech and the right to participate fully without obstruction or impairment as a member of the House. These particular privileges are fundamental to us here in the House. I will refrain from providing explicit citations and relieve you and colleagues of that part of it, but a reasonable discussion of those rights is contained in pages 70 to 75 of Marleau and Montpetit.

Former Speaker Bosley once described the right of free speech in this place as “absolute”. Going back through history, those attributes of our free speech rights here, our privileges, are contained in parliamentary law going right back to 1689, as one benchmark, the Bill of Rights.

The right to vote also is fundamental to our role here and is similarly protected by our privileges. They are so fundamental, Mr. Speaker, that you seek these privileges explicitly at the beginning of each Parliament.

I want to submit that in the result, these undoubted rights have been impaired by a ruling of the Ethics Commissioner on May 7, 2008 in relation to the member for West Nova. For reasons I am not exactly clear, the report of the Ethics Commissioner describes the member by name and not by riding, but I will refer to the member by riding in my remarks. One of three findings of the Ethics Commissioner is contained on page 21 of her report. Her words are, “I conclude that section 13”--she is referring to the code of ethics--“requires that [the member for West Nova] not participate in the debates or votes on the Mulroney Airbus settlement and that consequently he has contravened section 13” of the code.

Curiously, the commissioner's quotes and the evidence relied on by the commissioner appear, in reading it, to deal with a sequence of events that have become known as the Bear Head project and the Thyssen proposals and not the actual Mulroney Airbus issue, but I will leave that. That is already written in the report and I cannot do much about that. I would suggest that in practice and in theory the member for West Nova might actually still be free to vote and speak on the Bear Head project issue or the Thyssen proposal issues as distinct from the Airbus issue.

However, in this report, the Ethics Commissioner actually purports to remove the rights of free speech and the vote of the member in relation to the Mulroney Airbus matter. That was based on her reading and interpretation of our code. She did not do this on her own; she was simply interpreting our code the best way she felt she could.

Therefore, I have to note with some surprise that the member for West Nova, if this report of the Ethics Commissioner is to govern, is now completely free to speak on the Mulroney Airbus matter everywhere in Canada, on TV, on radio, in a scrum, in the press, as a citizen of Canada, but he is not free to speak in this House.

How could it be that a member has more freedom of speech everywhere except in this House, where we are supposed to have virtually absolute constitutionally protected rights and privileges of free speech? How could that member have less freedom of speech in this House than out on the street? How did we, in creating the code and in having it interpreted here, turn a freedom into a straitjacket?

Someone here today, Mr. Speaker, may say to you that this House adopted the rules so we should live with them, that this interpretation comes from that and the result comes from that and we should live with those things. However, I submit that the result is an unintended one, brought about by an unanticipated interpretation of the code, and in the parliamentary context, it is intolerable that we now have this abridgement of free speech and voting rights. It was not intended and it is intolerable.

Mr. Speaker, there are four points I want to make that you may find helpful in reviewing the report of the Ethics Commissioner, not in the sense of an appeal, but in relation to the privilege motion here.

First, in her report, the Ethics Commissioner concluded that being a defendant in a libel suit constituted a private interest. However, such a claim in a libel suit is not a liquidated amount. It is not a debt. There is no ownership or control of it and there is no real dollar value attached to it.

By concluding that this allegation gave rise to a private interest, the Ethics Commissioner potentially gives life and credibility, and validation, to a libel claim of any person or corporation who decides to sue any one of us here in the House before there is any conclusion to the suit at all.

I note that if one reads the popular press, there are at the present time two other lawsuits at play involving members of the House of Commons involving speech issues not in the House, but outside the House, as I understand it.

Our free speech privilege is here. It is living. It is protected from the police. It is protected from the king. It is protected from the powerful. It is protected from the press. How could it be lost by the simple filing of a lawsuit at the hands of a single plaintiff who makes such an allegation?

Second, the term “liability” as set out in section 3(2)(b) of the code is contained in a phrase that refers to “the extinguishment, or reduction in the amount, of the person’s liabilities”.

The Ethics Commissioner has decided that the term “liability” also includes a contingent liability. However, I submit that a liability claim raises the possibility of a liability, just the possibility. Just like the possibility of getting the common cold, just like the possibility of death, it applies to all of us, but that is not the same thing as a quantifiable liability that crystallizes on the happening of a specifically defined happening of an event described on formation of the legal relationship or obligation, two different types of contingencies here.

The mere claim in this particular case has no asset value and no dollar value, so the liability has no value. Therefore, if there is no dollar value, how could this give rise to any reduction in the amount that is described in section 3(2)(b)? Section 3(2)(b) clearly describes a reduction in amount of a person's liabilities, and there is no amount here. There is no amount in question.

The Ethics Commissioner may wish to reconsider this, and the House may also wish to consider this issue.

Third, the Ethics Commissioner's ruling on free speech on the member, in my view and I hope the view of the House, neglects to accord appropriate recognition and standing to parliamentary rights of free speech. Both the courts and Parliament have inquiries for the purpose of seeking the truth. Neither the courts nor Parliament will allow its members to be impaired in that function.

The objectives of transparency and non-furtherance of private interests are, to be sure, worthy goals, but as against the fundamental right of free speech, especially in Parliament, they must be seen and interpreted as subsidiary or secondary amenities in the public interest.

Fourth, in fairness to the Ethics Commissioner, she did recognize these principles. She says on page 20, “Members should not be precluded from participating in parliamentary votes and debates unless there is a serious justification for doing so”. It is good that she recognized that. In my view, that is a complete understatement of the principles involved. We should not just be unencumbered because it sounds good; we are legally, by constitutional privileges, accorded that right.

She also says, “the requirement to recuse oneself under section 13 does amount to a serious interference with the exercise of a member's public duties”. I say bingo, because she has recognized that the obligation to recuse oneself is a serious interference. I say it breaches the constitutional free speech rights of every member in this House, but at least she recognizes that it is a serious interference, to use her words.

She refers to our having public duties. Public servants have public duties. We do too, but we here must be vigilant in protecting our constitutionally protected parliamentary privileges of free speech and non-interference.

Lives in the past have been given to obtain and maintain these rights. History shows that a king was beheaded to assure these rights, and we must count on our Ethics Commissioner to recognize and uphold those rights. They are so fundamental that they do not even have to be pleaded outside this place in our courts. Section 5 of the Parliament of Canada Act says so.

The Ethics Commissioner is not and should actually never be asked, in my view, to become the gatekeeper of our parliamentary rights and privileges. This is our job in this House and if our code has somehow allowed the Ethics Commissioner to stray from the straight and narrow, we should at least take some of that responsibility. We must assist the Ethics Commissioner in achieving these broader objectives.

According to the Ethics Commissioner, a similar conjunction of circumstances is unlikely to occur frequently. She says that this kind of thing is not likely to happen very often, but let me put a hypothesis out here, now that the mechanism has been identified.

What if some scoundrel out there decided to sue for libel every member of the New Democratic Party or the Bloc Québécois and named every member in the libel suit? Under this ruling, it seems to me that that might functionally disconnect the entire political caucus from participating in a particular debate or a vote. It was never the intention of our rules that this happen, yet if we look at the ruling, this in theory could occur again now that the mechanism and the unintended result has been spotted. I am pretty sure there are not too many members in the House who would wish that to be an eventuality. The rights and privileges of the member for West Nova are identical to the rights and privileges of every member in this House.

We are not just, here in this place, the complaints department for some government ministry. We are, in the words of Sir Edward Coke from the 17th century, the grand inquest of the nation, so we need to fix either the ruling or the rules, as the Ethics Commissioner has invited us to do, and I would be prepared to move a motion in that regard. In that light, I just wanted to bring four things to the House's attention, because it is contextual.

First, I want to ask the Speaker of the House to take notice of the following things. A motion should reaffirm our privileges of free speech and our right to vote.

Second, this particular report of the Ethics Commissioner will be deemed concurred in after 30 sitting days under subsection 28(10) of the code unless it is otherwise dealt with by the House. Therefore, I believe that the proposed speech and the voting restrictions on the member for West Nova should be suspended by the wording of a motion, if there is to be a motion and if it is to be adopted.

Third, the motion should amend the code to clarify its terms as the Ethics Commissioner has invited us to, for example, in restating what is comprised by the terms “private interest” or secondly, possibly modifying section 13 of the code which now states: “A Member shall not participate in debate on or vote on a question in which he or she has a private interest”. That could be modified to read “a member should not” as opposed to “shall not”. I am only placing it out there for consideration.

Fourth, we should invite the Ethics Commissioner, under subsection 28(13), to reconsider this matter making reference to any changes in the code adopted by the motion, the free speech benchmarks described in parliamentary law and affirming the confidence of the House in her work as a Commissioner of Ethics.

Finally, it is not clear to me now that the procedure and House affairs committee would be in a position to deal with this on an expeditious basis. This is simply part of the current context.

Members' Right to Freedom of Speech in Parliamentary ProceedingsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

3:40 p.m.

York—Simcoe Ontario

Conservative

Peter Van Loan ConservativeLeader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform

Mr. Speaker, according to Bourinot, “One of the first and greatest of its privileges is free speech and one of the advantages of legislative bodies is the right of exposing and denouncing abuses by means of free speech”. Page 42 of Joseph Maingot's Second Edition of Parliamentary Privilege in Canada states:

The protection afforded the Member speaking in the House is, in law, spoken on an occasion of absolute legal privilege, that is to say, spoken with impugnity to the outside world, but he publishes outside the House at his peril. Parliament protects him when he speaks in Parliament, but when he speaks outside, or publishes outside what he says inside Parliament, Parliament offers no protection; only the common law does, if it is offered at all.

The member for West Nova invited a libel suit against him when he made statements outside of the House. He made a choice to give up his parliamentary privilege when he did that. You, Mr. Speaker, and the House have no role to play in the member's grievance. It is not our problem; it is his problem.

The House of Commons and the Parliament of Canada are not like the parliaments of some countries, in which people seek election merely so that they can take advantage of the privileges and immunities of parliamentarians to avoid consequences for their actions outside of that role and outside of that body. Our Parliament does not operate as it does in some of the lesser developed countries and, therefore, we can take pride in that. Those are important principles.

So too is the principle of having an Ethics Commissioner and a Code of Ethics. Parliament established the Ethics Commissioner and the Code of Conduct. Parliament gave the Ethics Commissioner the authority to interpret the code. The Code of Conduct is also governed by the rules of the House, rules which the House has established.

The right of free speech and the right to vote are not, contrary to what the hon. member just said, absolute. They are constrained by the code quite clearly so that members of Parliament are not to act in such a fashion as to advance their private interests, whether it be by speech or by voting. That is, of course, the principle on which the decision of the Ethics Commissioner turned.

As has been acknowledged by many members of the House speaking publicly, even those who have concerns with the decision of the Ethics Commissioner, Ms. Dawson made the right ruling given the rules of the House and the mandate granted her by Parliament.

If the rules were followed, then there can be no breach of privilege. It is our duty to follow the rules we established for ourselves. Even if this does touch on privilege, which it does not, but for the sake of this point let us assume that it does, the member would still be bound by the limitations of the rules.

On page 26 of Joseph Maingot's Second Edition of Parliamentary Privilege in Canada, it states that the importance of the right of freedom of speech is such that a member of the Senate or House of Commons may with impugnity make statements in Parliament “subject only to the rules, customs, and practices of the House of Commons”.

The member was indeed aware of that and, in fact, my understanding is that the reason this arose is because he was advised by other members of the House of Commons of the risk of running afoul of those rules. He chose to ignore that in the parliamentary context, thereby again inviting the decision to which he has been subjected.

The member is complaining that the rules of the House are putting limitations on his right to participate in debates. There will always be limitations. In fact, there must be limitations. Otherwise, we would have chaos. The member for West Nova said in the media:

I'll accept that her ruling--

Referring to Ms. Dawson:

--is in good faith, but I think we have to take our responsibilities as a legislature and see that if the code can be interpreted in such a way as she did then we have a dangerous code. We have to review the code.

I am not surprised to find someone who runs afoul of the rules saying the rules must be changed.

If the opposition's objective is to review the code, then it should know that it cannot be done through a question of privilege. This is simply not the mechanism to do so.

We cannot ask the Speaker to arbitrarily change the rules of the House or allow the member to move a motion without notice to change the rules of the House. That would be against the rules of the House. The proper place for review of the Standing Orders is through the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

The fact that the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs is not meeting does not constitute in any way a prima facie question of privilege either. It is a problem that needs to be resolved by the members of that committee. We certainly are in a position where the potential for that to occur could occur if people were willing to put their minds to that task if parties were serious about making this Parliament work.

In the March 14 ruling, Mr. Speaker, you said that if committees continue on the path of overturning perfectly good rulings from the chairs of committees, then that could very well lead to anarchy. If the near future anarchy results, then we would be in a crisis. I am not sure we are in that crisis now, but it is certainly the suggestion being made by the hon. member opposite.

That requires a resolution of the political parties determining to respect the legitimate authority of the proper rulings and deciding to get on with the proper work of committees. They will not be resolved through a question of privilege. If Parliament is not functioning in that fashion, then the solution is to dissolve Parliament. That way Canadians can elect members who want Parliament to get back to work bringing to Canadians economic security, safer streets, human rights and a clean environment.

In the book The Question of Confidence in Responsible Government, written by Eugene Forsey and G.C. Eglington, it states at page 95:

It is a question to be determined in all the circumstances whether the loss of control [of the House] indicates want of confidence, which might be, and if there is any real question, should be tested by a vote for the purpose deliberately brought on by the Government.

In Australia, for example, no motion of censure or lack of confidence in the government has ever been agreed to in the house of representatives, however, governments have resigned or advised a solution on eight occasions following their defeat on other votes in the house ranging from votes on amendments to legislation, to votes on procedural motions such as “let this House do now adjourn”.

The deciding factor seems to have been the government's perception that it had lost control of the business of the house. Sometimes a government facing such a situation has moved a motion of confidence in itself or declared that a vote on a procedural motion is to be regarded as a challenge of confidence.

When this House met last, for example, we had a concurrence motion that disrupted the government's legislative agenda. The government attempted to adjourn that debate. It was unsuccessful. If in the future these disruptions make it impossible for the government to move its legislation through the House, then it too, as in the Australian experience, could be considered that such procedural motions are matters of confidence.

We are not there yet, but it could conceivably come to that. If members of the opposition continue on their current path, then the government could very well be in a moral and constitutional position to dissolve Parliament. In the Speaker's ruling of March 14, the Speaker noted that:

Since that time, appeals of decisions by chairs appear to have proliferated, with the result that having decided to ignore our usual procedure and practices, committees have found themselves in situations that verge on anarchy.

Since this ruling, the opposition members on the ethics committee overturned a perfectly sound ruling of the chair. They knowingly thwarted the authority of the House of Commons. We also have opposition members on the justice committee insisting on doing a similar thing which would allow them to conduct a witch hunt. As a result, the progress of the government's justice agenda is compromised. There are important pieces of government legislation before the justice committee, including private member's business.

We are talking about the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. Here again the opposition majority is attempting to conduct a partisan one-sided study of a so-called in and out financing issue. The government, in response, offered a fair and sensible compromise. It proposed that the committee study the activities of all parties, not just the Conservative Party. It is a reasonable request. If that is all that is required to get the committee up and running, then what level-headed person would say no? We do not need a question of privilege. We do not need an election. We need common sense and a fair-minded settlement.

The opposition members should be using the instruments of Parliament that exist for the purpose of resolving a question like this and the pursuit of accountable government and the development of public policy. They should not be abusing their rights for self-serving partisan interests. Further, these misguided pursuits by the majority opposition are not within the rules of fair play. More importantly, they are not within the rules of this House. The government's tolerance for these anarchistic, irresponsible and illegal usages of the tools of Parliament is wearing thin.

I would like to conclude with a quote from an NDP member from a different generation. I say that because when members hear it, they will note the difference in attitude and approach from what we are facing in the current Parliament and it creates a stalemate which makes it difficult for the issue to be addressed in the fashion that it should be as it was raised by the hon. member. The statement refers to the opposition in a minority situation. The same would apply to a government in a minority situation. Just substitute the word “opposition” with “minority”. The hon. Stanley Knowles said:

The opposition has only the rules for its protection, hence the authorities on parliamentary procedure emphasize the greater importance to the opposition of the only protection it has, the protection of the rules. Only by according such rights to the opposition is it possible to achieve anything even approaching equality of strength between the two sides--

Mr. Knowles was right. Rules are important and following the rules is equally important. We cannot let the House slip and fall into chaos and anarchy. We need to follow the rules and I urge the majority opposition to follow the rules and get back to work.

What we are hearing from the hon. member is essentially a submission that asks you, Mr. Speaker, to take the place of the committee on procedure and House affairs, to stand in its place and do its work. That is not a proper question of privilege. It should not be put in that fashion because that is a question that is for all of Parliament to decide and for Parliament to decide through the vehicle that exists for that purpose, which is the committee on procedure and House affairs.

Of course, as I said, if the political parties, including the party of the hon. member who raised the issue, and those who are concerned about the code, would cooperate in such a fashion that the committee could function as it was intended, it would have the ability to address the very questions he is attempting to raise and seek a resolution to here in a different context where it does not belong. He should be raising them in that context. If he wishes to see them resolved in a fashion that addresses his concerns, he should implore his colleagues within his party who sit on that committee to allow that committee to function so that the questions can be addressed.

However, Mr. Speaker, with the greatest of respect, it is not for you to do in your role as Speaker on a question of privilege.

Members' Right to Freedom of Speech in Parliamentary ProceedingsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to intervene just briefly to add a few words to the question of privilege my colleague from Scarborough—Rouge River put forward. I thank him for raising this issue.

Even though he rose on a point of personal privilege, it is a matter involving the privileges of all members of the House that may be infringed upon, not deliberately in any way by the Ethics Commissioner, but inadvertently by her ruling. In her ruling she points out that it may in fact be an unintended consequence of her ruling that some members may feel that their privileges were infringed upon by this, and I certainly do agree.

I would like to clarify the government House leader's point when he said that was not for you, Mr. Speaker, to usurp or undermine the jurisdiction of the procedure and House affairs committee. He said that was something that you should not do. The point is that given that the procedure and House affairs committee is unable to deal with the issue because it is logjammed, then it should be up to the House of Commons, not the Speaker, to get together and deal with the collective privileges of all MPs.

I predict and I caution that we might be facing an increased flurry of similar lawsuits that have the effect of silencing a member of Parliament and making that person unable to do his or her job. I do not belive we can allow that to go on. We could see such a flurry of lawsuits flying around here that we would think we were in a snow storm with slapp suits going every which way and silencing good members and making them unable to do their job.

The problem lies with the code of conduct for members of Parliament as it is interpreted by the Ethics Commissioner. We need to change the code of conduct to make it abundantly clear that a member of Parliament is not in a conflict of interest just because he or she is being sued.

We are not saying, as the government House leader would have us believe, that we are advocating that members of Parliament should never be sued if they say something libellous outside the House. No one is arguing that. It may well be that somebody could trip up and say something libellous that they should be sued for, but that does not mean they should be silenced for the entire duration of that lawsuit and barred from raising any of that subject matter in the House or in committee during the 18 months or 2 years that it takes for that lawsuit to trickle through the courts.

Mr. Speaker, as you are aware, I tried to move that motion at the ethics committee. I felt that it was such an urgent matter that we could not wait for the logjam in the procedure and House affairs committee to be cleared so we tried, knowing full well that we were outside our jurisdiction. The chair of the committee, the member for Mississauga South, actually ruled it out of order but we challenged the chair and we overrode his ruling. The majority of us on committee felt so strongly that our colleague from West Nova was being silenced by the interpretation of the Ethics Commissioner that it had to be dealt with at some committee.

However, that was not possible because you, Mr. Speaker, ruled that the committee could not deal with it. We have nowhere else to go but to appeal to you now to let the House deal with it. If the procedure and House affairs committee cannot, then the House of Commons should make it abundantly clear that no member of Parliament is in a conflict of interest just because they are being sued. Otherwise, we cannot do our jobs properly.

Members' Right to Freedom of Speech in Parliamentary ProceedingsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

I think I have heard enough on this point for the time being as I have another matter I want to deal with.

The hon. member for Mississauga South, very briefly.

Members' Right to Freedom of Speech in Parliamentary ProceedingsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think you will find in your research that the issue of a contingent liability constituting a private interest did not come up.

Furthermore, there is a consideration that should another case come up, we could have a situation where anything directly or indirectly relating to another issue would in fact be the subject of a recusal, which could be very broad indeed. That causes me some concern.

Finally, obviously the member has risen on a matter of privilege which is of significant importance. He is asking for a finding of a prima facie matter of privilege, at which time, if that should be found by you, he would be seeking to table a motion. I think the House wants an opportunity to deal with this matter and I hope you will rule favourably on it.

Members' Right to Freedom of Speech in Parliamentary ProceedingsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

I thank the hon. member for Scarborough—Rouge River for having raised this matter and the government House leader, the member for Winnipeg Centre and the member for Mississauga South for their interventions on the matter. I will take it under advisement and return to the House in due course.

Gasoline PricesRequest for Emergency DebateRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

The Chair has notice of a request for an emergency debate from the hon. member for Trois-Rivières, who now has the floor.

Gasoline PricesRequest for Emergency DebateRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 52 of the House of Commons, I request that an emergency debate be held on the sharp increase in the price of petroleum products.

Gasoline prices have increased by over 30% since the beginning of the year. In the Montreal region, the average price has gone from $1.08 in January 2008 to over $1.28 in April 2008. In the Trois-Rivières region, the price has even hit $1.39

The price of crude oil is also skyrocketing. Last January it was $95 U.S. per barrel: at 4 p.m. on May 14, 2008 it had gone over $120 U.S. There is therefore a concern that this trend will continue. In the July 2008 futures market, it is possible that the price per barrel might exceed $130 U.S.

This is the time of year when people are making summer vacation plans. The endless rise in gas prices is really disruptive to the tourist season and we have serious concerns for more remote regions like Gaspé and Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean.

Since this situation has repercussions on all sectors of our economy, it has a heavy impact on consumers and families. I therefore deem it essential for this House to debate this important matter without further delay, in an emergency debate.

I would also like to add that there is currently no other procedure I can use to request a debate on this important issue.

Speaker's RulingRequest for Emergency DebateRoutine Proceedings

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

This is the second time that the hon. member for Trois-Rivières has raised this matter. In my opinion, she has raised some good points in this connection. We shall therefore, at the ordinary time of adjournment this evening, hold an emergency debate on the matter she has presented.