House of Commons Hansard #111 of the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was report.

Topics

Foreign Affairs and International DevelopmentCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from Ottawa Centre for moving this motion and for sharing his time with me.

In my opinion, this motion is long overdue. It is very important for me to speak to this issue because I am keenly aware that in my riding of Victoria, the business community has been exercising leadership on this front by forming what has been called a values based business network through which they promote a triple bottom line approach in business. The business community develops business cases for sustainability. It works, learns and promotes ethical business practices. It collaborates on marketing and branding. It develops projects that strengthen the micro-economy.

This is an issue that is particularly important to me. I have seen how it can work. It is beneficial not just for the bottom line, but in promoting social justice.

My colleagues in the NDP caucus and I have been calling for such measures for a long time. My colleague from Burnaby—New Westminster has presented Bill C-492 which would begin to address the issue of basic human rights and environmental abuses by Canadian corporations abroad. This is a continuing problem that received extensive national attention in 2007 with the release of the advisory report from the National Roundtable on Corporate Social Responsibility. The report's recommendations to enhance Canada's social responsibility standards were inevitable, given the disturbing accounts by round table participants on human rights abuses, allegedly perpetrated by Canadian companies while operating overseas. A year and a half later, the federal government has yet to adopt these recommendations designed to prevent such injustices. It is the responsibility of the government to give leadership and to ensure that the standards set out in the report's recommendations are met.

The basis of this report offers a pragmatic and comprehensive series of recommendations for the Government of Canada to implement toward developing the world's most progressive framework of corporate social responsibility. The report recommends standards based on existing international best practices, voluntary frameworks topped up with additional made in Canada standards that put as their focus assurances that Canadian extractive corporate practices enhance and protect human rights and the environment. This is not just good for social justice, but it is good for the bottom line as corporate social responsibility practices are increasingly being recognized.

Recently, Niall FitzGerald, former CEO of Unilever said:

Corporate social responsibility is a hard-edged business decision. Not because it is nice to do or because people are forcing us to do it...but because it is good for our business.

Companies are beginning to realize that a business has a responsibility beyond its basic responsibility to its shareholders, a responsibility to a broader constituency that includes key stakeholders, customers, employees, and in the case of corporations functioning abroad, to the people, the foreign nationals in that country and the aboriginal people.

There seems to be an irony between the government's inaction on this file and its historic apology to the aboriginal people of Canada yesterday. The government continues to allow for exploitation of aboriginal people in other countries through unsustainable and harmful corporate business practices, as has happened in Suriname or Tanzania where the labour practices of Barrick Gold, a Canadian company, caused conflict.

We have begun to see the cracks form in bottom line capitalism with the demise of huge multinational corporations such as Enron and WorldCom and with the trials of Conrad Black or Ezra Levant. It has opened our eyes to the need for corporate social responsibility standards.

As the global food crisis increases, these discussions are broadening and suggest the need for a paradigm shift. Business must find new ways to contribute to society. The emphasis on free trade must give way to the promotion of fair trade principles. Doing business must no longer mean exploitation of people or devastation of the habitat.

The implementation of measures to ensure corporate social responsibility is anything but a business as usual approach. Rather, a corporate social responsibility is effectively part of what I would call a new social contract between business and society. Government must stand up, take note and look at these recommendations that were made through a consensus report. The government must begin to consider these more seriously and implement them.

Throughout Canada successful businesses have taken on the challenge toward corporate social responsibility. One such company in Canada at the forefront of this new way of doing business is Mountain Equipment Co-op. Former CEO Peter Robinson, one of the new thought leaders, has remarked, “Ethics is the new competitive environment”. Companies like MEC believe that corporate social responsibility is not only good for business, but it also offers a net competitive advantage for their businesses. In my own city, as I said, the values based network is comprised of hundreds of small businesses. They are exercising leadership by recognizing a triple bottom line approach to doing business.

The Conservative government must follow the lead of businesses across the country. Canada's brand as a democratic country that respects human rights depends on it. We must make corporate social responsibility a part of Canada's policy.

Today Canada can take action to ensure that we do not continue to exploit aboriginal people in other countries through its corporations. The recommendations that were proposed in the report stress that corporations operating abroad have a responsibility not only to follow the rules of the countries where they are operating, which in many cases especially in some developing countries are not applied, but they should follow the standards of corporate social responsibilities and the laws as they are in Canada.

This is what this report attempts to do. I do not know if the business community in Canada is leading. This is what Canadians expect. Yesterday the Conservative government itself expressed regret and apologized to first nations people for the exploitation that has occurred over the years. Now it has the opportunity to prevent that kind of exploitation in other countries by taking action on this report.

Foreign Affairs and International DevelopmentCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Mr. Speaker, Canada has the greatest mining industry in the world and is the biggest exporter. We are all over the world. By and large we do a fantastic job but every once in a while a rogue company comes up.

In my international work I had to travel to one country to solve terrible local laws that were going to be passed against Canadian investment in general. It would have hurt all sorts of Canadian companies because of one operator. In another country there was a cruel dictatorship. Once again a Canadian company was implicated. There are only a handful of these type of operators sometimes causing problems for us and for our great mining industry which is a world leader. I am sure that is why the industry signed on to this report. It would help companies as much as anyone else to get this in place so that we did not have these rogue operations.

My question is a little off topic. One of the complaints I hear is that the local government is not enforcing the rules. Primarily these companies should be caught by local legislation and enforcement but that is not occurring.

Could the member comment on Canada's foreign policy and our place in the world? In my view we have reduced the investments that we are making in diplomacy. We have reduced the investments that were helping the democratic evolution of new countries, of fledgling democracies. If we were to put more effort into some of these countries, they would be able to protect themselves not only from rogue investments from Canada, but from all the companies in the world that may try to exploit aboriginal and other people in a country that has not yet developed sufficient laws and enforcement of its own. I think that is the type of role Canada has traditionally played.

Foreign Affairs and International DevelopmentCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC

Mr. Speaker, my colleague has raised extremely important issues. I will try to address some of them.

The question that Canada could do more in terms of overseas development aid to help countries build capacity is excellent. It certainly is what we on this side of the House have been calling for. We have been asking the Government of Canada to meet its millennium development goals. We are still far from that. Although development aid has increased, it has not in comparison to GDP. We are falling behind our own promises in terms of our responsibilities to the world.

It is absolutely understandable that countries in the developing world often do not have the capacity to implement some of the laws that are in place in those countries.

We only need to look at some of the agreements that were made, for example, in Suriname. Agreements were made with Canadian companies in the extractive sector with very little, if any, benefit to the aboriginal people. We know that by definition the extractive industry is finite. It is important that Canada do everything possible to ensure there is some social justice. We know that these trade deals are often coercive and unequal and we need to have more equitable trade.

The whole point I tried to make earlier is that there are many companies in Canada and business leaders in my own city that are giving leadership and showing the way. They are demonstrating to the government that they would like the government to take a stand on that, to make it easier.

As my hon. colleague just said, it would facilitate the task for those companies that want to uphold these higher standards.

Foreign Affairs and International DevelopmentCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:50 a.m.

Calgary East Alberta

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and to the Minister of International Cooperation

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to this important subject about corporate social responsibility and the round table conferences that were held.

First, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all members of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development for their hard work on this issue and for the motions that were brought forward. I can assure everyone that the motion was passed unanimously to be tabled in the House.

I would like to highlight some important points. Canada is a major player in the international extractive sector. We are very much a world leader in mining. Between 1992 and 2006, the share of global mining exploration attributed to Canadian companies jumped from 25% to 43%. In fact, investment in the energy and metalurgic sector reached $121 billion in 2006, making this sector the second largest component of Canadian direct investment abroad. As I understand it, 24 mining companies are planning to invest $11 billion in Africa alone.

Although Canada has been doing this voluntarily, it has been a leader because Canadian companies have all been doing very well in maintaining the high standards that are expected from Canadian companies. As a matter of fact, Transparency International recently released a report in which it evaluated 42 petroleum companies on the basis of the public disclosure of three types of information: all payments to government on a country-to-country basis, other financial information pertaining to operations and anti-corruption programs. I am proud to say that Canada's Nexon, Petro-Canada and Talisman Energy consistently scored very well in those categories, often ranking high or very high above country averages. Therefore, it is very clear that our companies are doing very well.

However, this still means that we can move forward and see how we can improve. To that effect, the Government of Canada initiated the round table conference that was done. I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone who participated in the round table conference and for the recommendations that were made to the advisory group's recommendation. I would like to thank the hundreds of people who attended all of these sessions and who took time to present their views.

We remain committed to consulting with key stakeholders and we will move forward in addressing these complex issues in a time of need. However, when we do that we want to get it right so we are taking the time to get this right and very soon.

During the committee of the whole debate, the Minister of Foreign Affairs assured my colleague that he would be responding to the recommendations soon. However, we want to ensure we respond in a proper and rightful manner and that it is right for Canada.

Some of my colleagues have stated what Canada needs to do. I want to quickly say what Canada has been doing. Canada has been a signatory to OECD's guidelines of multinational enterprises that promote the adoption of effective CSR principles. Also, Canada strongly supported the international extractive industries transparency initiative, EITI, aimed at building the capacity of countries to increase the transfer of companies' payments and corresponding government revenues from the extractive sector.

Our partnership with mining associations and the aboriginal organizations is to develop a mining capability to help aboriginal people evaluate and participate in the opportunities offered by the mining sector. This has been adopted in many countries including the Philippines, Australia, Norway and Peru. Those are just a few examples of how we are moving in the right direction.

As the Minister of Foreign Affairs has stated that he would be responding soon to this report, I move:

That the debate be now adjourned.

Foreign Affairs and International DevelopmentCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Foreign Affairs and International DevelopmentCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Foreign Affairs and International DevelopmentCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Foreign Affairs and International DevelopmentCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Foreign Affairs and International DevelopmentCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

All those opposed will please say nay.

Foreign Affairs and International DevelopmentCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Foreign Affairs and International DevelopmentCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

In my opinion the nays have it.

And five or more members having risen:

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on the following division:)

Vote #156

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Royal Galipeau

I declare the motion defeated.

When we were last debating there were 10 minutes for questions and comments. I now call for questions and comments. The hon. member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca has the floor.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, based on his speech, does the parliamentary secretary believe that the Special Economic Measures Act needs to be rewritten?

We know that SEMA is obsolete, that it does not address many of the needs of the 21st century in terms of ensuring that extractive industries working abroad are able to adhere to commonly agreed to norms and in terms of the social responsibility to which we know our private sector would like to adhere. The guidelines, to some degree are there but improvements need to be made and one important aspect on the punitive side is the utilization of a Special Economic Measures Act that works.

I would like to know whether his government will rewrite SEMA.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:40 p.m.

Calgary East Alberta

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and to the Minister of International Cooperation

Mr. Speaker, as the member should know, as we all know, Canadian companies are held to a very high standard by the Government of Canada. We expect them to comply not only with the rules of local countries, but what the Canadian public expects of them as well. That is the key element. The other day I had dinner with the Chilean delegation and it asked me this question. I said that Canadians expected Canadian companies to hold to these very high standards.

Yes, we have standards, but there are always challenges, and the member is right that things change. This is why the round table conference was held by the government with industry stakeholders, NGOs and everybody. Comprehensive round table conferences were held in four cities of Canada.

The recommendations are now with the government. The Minister of Foreign Affairs stated, during committee of the whole, that he would respond to those recommendations after they had been studied, to ensure we got it right and that the laws of Canada were complied with. We should wait until that report comes forward before asking these kinds of questions.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Sorenson Conservative Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the parliamentary secretary for the way he and the whole committee handled this report when it went to committee.

We all believe there must be some type of balance in the approach we take. We want to encourage Canadian investment around the world. We recognize the importance this has for our country and for the prosperity of Canadians, but also there is responsibility. Before companies go into some of the countries, they sign on to the fact that they will be socially responsible.

In committee the parliamentary secretary spoke at some length about the oil company Talisman and how it had, over the last number of years, improved its social responsibility, to the point where witnesses say it was really a leader in showing how one could make a difference.

We see oil companies, mining companies and others that are now more than ever taking a look at how they can impact certain countries, encourage human rights and other things. I know the parliamentary secretary is from Calgary, which has a number of good, corporately social responsible companies, especially Talisman. Could he give a little information on that?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Crowfoot for his work as chair of the foreign affairs committee and specifically for his work on this file. This motion was in front of the committee, and has been debated for a while.

As I mentioned in my speech earlier that Transparency International recently released a report in which it evaluated 42 petroleum companies on the basis of public disclosure. Guess which companies stood out? It was the Canadian companies. Canada's Nexon, Petro-Canada and Talisman Energy consistently ranked well in all categories, either high or very high, above average.

Companies are taking corporate social responsibility very well. Talisman now has a complete department that looks into corporate social responsibility.

Let me provide another concrete example to show how Canadian companies themselves do a very good job of meeting the standards.

Last January I was in Ecuador for the inauguration of President Correa. A lot of Canadian mining companies are in Ecuador, close to 43 of them. One company had not met the corporate social responsibility. It was the other Canadian companies that told that company to clean up its act. It was the Canadians policing themselves, because it is in the larger interest of Canada to ensure that it has well run, corporately social responsible companies.

As I mentioned, our investment is over $121 billion and it is vital for Canadian industries to police these things.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, the parliamentary secretary was born in Africa. Why on earth is his government not doing more to address the catastrophe currently unfolding in Zimbabwe?

Right now people are being murdered. Leaders in the MDC are being murdered. The regime on top of Mr. Mugabe and the four members of his joint operations committee have engaged in a new tactic. They are taking innocent civilians, pouring gasoline on them and burning them alive. That is happening right now. What do we hear from the government? Absolutely nothing.

We said never again and the Prime Minister said never again, but never again is happening right now, in front of our noses and the government has done nothing.

Will the parliamentary secretary take the issue to his Minister of Foreign Affairs, his government and his Prime Minister and demand that SADC and the African Union tell the leadership in Zimbabwe that they will be prosecuted under the ICC if it does not stop its violence right now, that they will help to organize a multilateral peacemaking force to enter into Zimbabwe, like the Brits did in Sierra Leone, to stop the conflict and end Zimbabwe's agony.

Will he do this, as a person who was born in Africa? Will he ask his government to take a leadership role to end the agony taking place in Zimbabwe?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

Mr. Speaker, the member is right. I was born in Tanzania and I know very well the history of Tanzania. I was there during the time when the winds of change were taking place on the continent and what is today called Zimbabwe was ruled by a white regime. The country I was staying in was in the forefront of fighting colonialism and white supremacy rule.

I agree with the member that the situation now in Zimbabwe is terrible. It is not only terrible, but, as one of the pastors from South Africa stated last week, Zimbabwe has become a police state under Mr. Mugabe.

This government is acting very strongly and has made strong representations to the African Union and to the South African government to have peer pressure put on Mr. Mugabe to ensure that there is a fair and transparent election.

The good thing about all of this is Mr. Mugabe lost the election and now we have a run-off. Now it is critically important for the people of Zimbabwe to make their choice as to who will run.

The member is absolutely right that Mr. Mugabe is using all the state apparatus to ensure he stays in power. Therefore, it is incumbent upon all of us to make that noise. However, I will never accept any kind of intervention as an invasion of Africa by any other forces out there. We must work with the African leaders to ensure they address the issues in Zimbabwe because it is in their interests as well.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak today to the issue of corporate social responsibility, particularly in the extractive industries.

I want to start by correcting the parliamentary secretary's comments. He suggested that this began with the advent of the Conservative government, but that is not the case.

Much of what we are talking about today is the landmark report from the parliamentary Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade, tabled in June 2005. It is a landmark report on mining in developing countries and corporate social responsibility.

I would be remiss if I did not, on behalf of all members of the House, thank non-governmental organizations, like KAIROS, which have really done a yeoman's job of ensuring that this issue has been kept in the forefront for several years. For quite a while, it seemed like the issue had disappeared, but we all know how important it is. NGOs, like KAIROS, have really done a great job of keeping our feet to the fire, as elected officials, to ensure this issue is in front of Canadians.

This is an extremely important issue. I want to talk for a moment on some basic concepts in terms of what corporate social responsibility is rather than pure rights.

Although major objective of extractive companies is to earn profits, they also have a responsibility to advance social goals, given the transboundary nature of their operations and the concomitant reduction of the welfare role, particularly in developing in countries. Some may put forth the argument that these are private companies and they really do not have a role to play whatsoever, but they do have that role to play.

We all know about the common concept of triple bottom line. This is not a theoretical issue; it is an issue that connects to the bottom line of the private sector, and I will get into that in a moment.

Corporate social responsibility implies compliance plus the active development and implementation of a mainstream business strategy, supported by technological and organizational innovation to prevent, and this is important, social impact while at the same time optimizing social benefits from the outset. Through responsible management, it also involves the mitigation, on an ongoing basis, of negative effects, if and when they occur.

Historically this was not the case. In fact, Milton Friedman, in his 1970 book The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase its Profits, made the argument that social performance was totally contained in marketplace performance. I would argue, with all due respect to Milton Friedman, that he is wrong.

Today we know that social responsibility in business is not entirely up to the marketplace, with the objective of ensuring the private sector extracts profits. Engaging in social responsibility is important not only for the people in the countries where the company is located, but also for its ability to do its best and provide its highest level of performance.

The approach to corporate social responsibility can be summarized in the following way. Operating a successful business is important with respect to the interests of employees, investors, suppliers and customers. It is important to make social investment in a local community in response to the perceived moral imperatives as well as ensuring a healthy workforce. I will give the House an example.

I have been to South Africa 13 times. I used to work there in years past. Extractive industries in South Africa found that their employees were rapidly dying due to tuberculosis, malaria and other infectious diseases. The underlying cause of this were viruses known as the HIV class.

Extractive industries, particularly those involved in diamond and gold manufacturing, could not accept this. The destruction of their workforces was having a profound negative impact on their bottom line. These industries became involved in the health care of their workforce by enabling them to get access to medications, particularly the antiretroviral medications that not only prevent a person going from HIV positive to developing AIDS, but also significantly diminish infecting other people.

Allow me a short aside. It is important because this discovery was actually made and championed by the British Columbia Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver.

Doctors Montaner and Kerr found that the highly active anti-retroviral therapy, that is, triple therapy, can actually drop the viral load so low for individuals that it prevents them from being able to infect another person. This is actually quite remarkable, because if we can drop somebody's viral load so low as to prevent him or her from being able to infect another person, it dramatically truncates the ability of the virus to infect new people. This is a huge challenge we have in terms of trying to arrest what is arguably the biggest challenge in global health.

The South African extractive industries got involved in that and were able to keep their workforce healthy. By keeping the workforce healthy, they were able to significantly improve their bottom line. That is the essence of the moral imperative. That is how it connects the moral imperative with the profit-making nature of the private sector.

It differs quite significantly from Milton Friedman, who believed that the private sector market could, by the very nature of driving toward the acquisition of profit, take care of these social needs as a downstream effect. We now know that is not the case at all.

We would like to see Canada championing a series of requirements that the private sector understands it has to adhere to when working abroad. If these companies do not, there will be consequences for that. I know that the private sector would like to have those guidelines, because currently these companies are working in the dark a little.

I believe we have to define for the private sector the guidelines we want it to adhere to in terms of mitigating the environmental and social impacts in all spheres, the biophysical, the economic and the social, and anticipating, preventing and dealing with these at the outset, not after the fact.

I want to look at the positive and negative effects of extractive industries for a moment. I am glad that the issue of Talisman was brought up, because I was in Sudan when Talisman was there. I went into the bush south of Bahr El Ghazal in Southern Sudan when the war was going on.

For all that people were harassing and being critical of Talisman for being part of the Greater Nile Petroleum Operating Company, the fact of the matter is that Talisman was the only group on the ground providing health care and educational opportunities for the Nuer and Dinka tribespeople who live in Southern Sudan.

As for removing Talisman, all those people who wanted Talisman to go actually deprived some very impoverished people in Southern Sudan of health care and educational benefits. In the process, Talisman was replaced with another company, which does not care whatsoever what happens to those people. Subsequent to that, Talisman has done what I think is a very good job under the auspices of Greg Manhas and his team to provide a very good model that other extractive industries may wish to look at in terms of corporate social responsibility.

The downstream effects have been very interesting, not only in terms of the extractive industries but also in terms of other large industrial endeavours in developing countries. We know that developing countries do not have the capacity on the ground and most of them are rife and riven with corruption. We have seen massive environmental damage, horrific health effects on people who live in certain areas, conflict, and something called the Dutch disease.

What is the Dutch disease? Developing countries have put all their eggs in one basket, an extractive industry, at the expense of maximizing innovation in other non-extractive industries. In the process, they have negatively affected their economy and the downstream effect. By focusing on one industry and not putting adequate resources into other industries to diversify their economies in years to come, they get the Dutch disease. These countries have been negatively affected.

Let us look at a couple of examples. What is happening in the delta region in Nigeria right now is horrific. Companies such as Shell and others are committing atrocious acts in collusion with the Nigerian government, I have to say, against the people who live in the delta.

In Ogoniland, which is part of the delta, we see gas flaring. Gas flaring is causing catastrophic effects on the health of the people who live there, from sky-high cancer levels to other illnesses. The spinoff benefits to the people are negligible at best. The people who are hired on the rigs are not local people. They are foreigners and very few in number. If locals are hired, it is for menial work.

There is no ability to build capacity in these developing countries. That is what these extractive industries should be doing. It is not for them to be aid agencies, we know that, but it will improve their bottom line if they are able to sensibly utilize some of their profits to invest in the social well-being of the people there.

They can invest in training and in capacity building, which is key. They can give the people jobs and an opportunity to acquire skills so they will be better able to contribute to their economy. They can give them water security, food security and health care. All of these things could be done by the private sector.

The Canadian government should work with the private sector to enable this. They could be very good and very willing partners. A partnership between a private sector company and the Canadian government through CIDA could be a very constructive partnership, in effect, by working with people on the ground, with domestic NGOs, in a recipient country to build capacity, to enable countries to have the water security, food security and health care they require and also the economic development these countries need to be able to improve.

However, some of this is heartbreaking to see. I will give the example of sub-Saharan Africa, which is the poorest area in the world.

Do members know that sub-Saharan Africa has 40% of the world's natural resources? Yet the poorest people in the world live there. Why is that? Because of lack of capacity and also because of conflict and corruption, what I call the three c's, which are the three biggest problems that affect that part of the world. The extractive industries have the ability to play a very important role here.

I will also talk for a minute about environmental impacts. I mentioned the devastating effects of oil exploration in Ogoniland in the delta in Nigeria, but we also can look at the Congo River basin in Amazonia.

In the Congo River basin, particularly in the eastern part of the Congo, there has been a genocide taking place for a number of years. More than 7 million people were killed in under five years in the eastern Congo. Did anyone hear about that? Did anyone care or do anything about that? No, they did not. Right now, every day, day in and day out, this means that the equivalent of four large passenger jets are exploding and killing more than a thousand people. That is the equivalent.

A thousand people are dying every day in the eastern Congo, but what do we hear? Nothing. Could we imagine what would happen if 1,000 people or even 100 people were dying every day in the west? There would be enormous attention paid to that.

What is also interesting is that in the eastern Congo there is a lot of extractive industry taking place for coltan, gold, diamonds and other minerals. The absence of any interest is allowing a festering wound to continue on the body politic of the world. The murder, maiming and mass rape of ultimately millions of civilians in eastern Congo is done in front of us but in such a way that no one is paying any attention.

These issues are not hidden. They are in front of us. The absence of any interest on the part of the west to address these problems is something that I frankly cannot begin to fathom, having seen this so many times myself.

In Amazonia, the same thing is happening with the destruction of the environment.

However, not all is for naught. There are things we can do. There are things that Canada could lead on. There is a willingness on the part of our private sector to work with the government to establish a set of guidelines to be adhered to.

As I said to the parliamentary secretary, the government should also rewrite the Special Economic Measures Act. SEMA is obsolete. We must have a way of imposing punitive actions against a private sector actor from Canada which is acting in ways that are egregious abroad, ways that we would never tolerate within our own country. I would encourage the Government of Canada to do that.

I would also say that the government needs to work with the private sector to enable that to happen. It needs a buy-in from the private sector to do that.

The government could also learn from companies such as Talisman, which has done a good job. I know that some of the other private sector groups in the world, such as Rio Tinto, BHP and placer mining, for example, have been doing some good work in trying to improve their ability to engage in CSR, but I have to say that they need to do a better job of letting the public and us know about that. Many would be willing to work with them.

I also found it very interesting when dealing with the private sector that while there is certainly some goodwill because companies understand the triple bottom line, they may not necessarily know how to achieve it. There is the ability for those of us in Canada who are involved in this area to offer ideas, solutions and ways of operationalizing this.

I would suggest that if anyone from the private sector is interested in engaging in this, what they could do is utilize the administrative structure that UNAIDS did. It is called the “Three Ones”. What is it? It is one framework, one operational mechanism, and one oversight mechanism. If companies do that, they are able to utilize their moneys in the most efficient and effective fashion possible.

I would also suggest dealing with what I would argue is one of the biggest challenges, as I mentioned early on, and that is the issue of capacity building. What international and large NGOs often do, which I think is really criminal, is that they hand a framework to developing countries.

Hundreds of thousands of dollars will be spent on producing this framework. These NGOs will give it to a developing country and say, “Here it is”. The people of the developing country will look at it and say, “That is nice, but how on earth can we hope to actually implement this if we do not have the capacity to implement?”

I will use a case as an example. President Johnson-Sirleaf of Liberia is a remarkable woman. She is trying to dig her country out of years of being subjected to conflict as a result of the greed and avarice of a thug, former president Taylor of Liberia, who subjected his people to unspeakable horrors. He destroyed his country. It was all because of a desire to have diamonds.

What President Johnson-Sirleaf needs is capacity building. She needs western countries and the private sector to help in building up the capacity within her own country so that Liberians can have the administrative frameworks and the governance structures that are required.

They need the ability to have the proper checks and balances, the banking system, the legal system and the security apparatus so the people of the country can be secure and also so there is the ability to invest in the educational opportunities the Liberian people need.

What do we have? Nothing. The world just disappears. Extraction still takes place, but there is an inability to connect the extractive industries and their profits. That is not only for the private sector but, very importantly, for the countries who need to use those moneys to build up their own capacity.

The last issue is conflict. I want to go again to the issue of Zimbabwe, because it is very important. We know that Mr. Mugabe and the four members of his joint operations committee have destroyed their country. We know that they are burning civilians alive. We know that as Zimbabwe falls, so does the entire southern African region in many ways.

I would implore the Canadian government to work with SADEC and the African Union to say to the leadership in Zimbabwe that if it does not stop this violence, if it does not allow election monitors to go into the country, and if it does not have a free and open election at the end of this month, then that leadership will be prosecuted for crimes against humanity.

If the leadership does not comply, then we must tell its members that we are going to organize an invasion force, a multilateral peacemaking force, to go into Zimbabwe. It should not be difficult. We know that 80% of the country is living on less than a dollar a day and most are malnourished and starving. A very small number is brutalizing these people. It needs to be removed.

The British did it in Sierra Leone and ended a conflict there that claimed a quarter of a million lives. We need to do the same in Zimbabwe as far as I am concerned. If we do not, then our responsibility to protect will mean absolutely nothing.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Speaker, I had the privilege Monday night of having supper with Muhammad Yunus, the Nobel prize laureate and founder of the Grameen Bank. It was a really interesting conversation.

I would be interested in my learned colleague's views with respect to the issue of social businesses. Social businesses, as conceptualized by Mr. Yunus, are essentially set up in the same manner as regular businesses which have a business plan, model and financing, but at the end when the businesses become profitable, the limitation is that the businesses can only take out their original capital and thereafter whatever moneys are generated by the businesses are pushed back into the businesses for social purposes.

I know my hon. friend has travelled extensively. I know that he is concerned about these issues. I would be interested in his observations with respect to Professor Yunus' developments, particularly in Bangladesh.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my friend for the question and again congratulate him on the passage of his bill that would ensure that CIDA has a mandate for poverty reduction. It was an incredible achievement and we certainly hope that the government comes to the House as soon as possible and tells us how it is going to implement this private member's bill championed by my colleague.

Dr. Yunus, the champion and originator of the Grameen Bank, and the concept of microcredit, is really an extraordinary individual. I agree with my friend. I think that what Canada and CIDA should be doing is to expand the work that it has done in terms of microcredit. CIDA does involve itself to some degree in microcredit, but I think it needs to expand its involvement in microcredit because the rate of return on microcredit can be anywhere from 90% to 110%. Second, it should also go beyond microcredit to do exactly what my colleague is talking about which is the utilization of microcredit for social business entrepreneurship.

There are some remarkable models that have occurred, not only in Bangladesh but also in certain parts of Africa, Central America and South America where this has worked very well. I know my colleague and many of us would like to work with the government, to work with CIDA, and to work with its president, Mr. Greenhill, to ensure that Canada can be a leader in this area which will really get assets on the ground, which does not happen as often as it should.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my hon. colleague from Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca for his involvement in this sector.

The 14th report of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development was tabled in the House in March 2005. The government responded in October 2005, and subsequently created a national round table made up of all stakeholders in the mining sector, including NGOs, mining companies and anyone directly or indirectly involved.

That consultation group carried out its mission for over a year. It consulted people across the country. It issued a number of recommendations on March 29, 2007 including some concerning Canadian standards for corporate social responsibility. Certain recommendations, based on the global reporting initiative, would require the government to produce reports on corporate social responsibility. More importantly, one recommendation called for the creation of an independent ombudsman's office. NGOs and our committee also support that recommendation.

I would like to know what my hon. colleague thinks of creating an ombudsman's office.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, it was omitted by the parliamentary secretary, but I would be remiss if I did not say to my friend and colleague that the chair of the foreign affairs committee at the time who did the groundbreaking 2005 report on extractive industries was my colleague who asked the question. So I thank our then chair for doing this. He and the team worked very well to put out a groundbreaking report and I encourage people to actually read it because it is very good.

This is a very important question. An ombudsman would be good because it would give transparency to an area that historically has been obscured and opaque. The interesting thing is we are not coming down on the private sector. We are offering something that will be beneficial to the private sector, to the extractive industries which are working in the developing world, and to the countries that are there.

To simply go into a country and engage in extractive industries without being able to make the social investment is really one-half of the opportunity that lies before them. Being able to have an ombudsman, as my friend suggested, would enable the private sector, those companies that are adhering to it, to actually be lauded in our country and be applauded in the private sector for being able to be intelligent in terms of their business plan, intelligent in terms of their investment in their industry, and intelligent in terms of their investment into the social capital in the communities they are working in. It is truly a win-win situation.

A corollary of this is really what took place in Europe where the European Union came up with a very sensible suggestion. It said that there is an obligation, as European countries, when working in a developing country or in a developed country. If they are paying moneys to the government or to whoever they are paying moneys to, then they have to list those moneys. Those moneys have to be listed and made public. In other words, everyone will know where the moneys are being paid to and in that way they can significantly reduce the corruption factor that is the cancer that eats away at the ability of developing countries to be able to move forward.

We do not do enough. Often many countries in the west have a traditional view in aid and development and aid is not the answer. Aid is part of the solution. The biggest solution is the ability for investment to get into a country where it can actually grow and improve the social welfare of the people there. That is the answer.

There is a requirement for an environment which is free of conflict, an environment where there is an adequate judicial system, an adequate security system, and an adequate area where investors can ensure that their investment is not going to be stolen. Any countries that enable that situation to occur will be able to get out from their debt hole which affects 2.5 billion people on our planet who live on less than $2 a day.

There are so many opportunities, so many things that we can do. I would implore the government to listen to some of the concrete solutions that have been put forward that will enable us to get out of this never-ending cycle where aid really does not go anywhere or does not maximize the ability to help those who are most impoverished in our world. The failure to do that comes to affect us all negatively in the future.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Speaker, the interesting conversation with Dr. Yunus and the member's response lead me to wonder whether there should be some consideration for Canadians operating abroad to actually enter into some form of non-profit businesses as part of their corporate social responsibility. For instance, a domestic bank operating internationally enters into something like microfinance.

I cannot think of an example with respect to a mining company, but if we are asking for some level of corporate social responsibility from our Canadian corporations, why would we not expect that possibly part of their corporate social responsibility include--