House of Commons Hansard #106 of the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was c-50.

Topics

Oral QuestionsPoints of OrderOral Questions

3:10 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Mr. Speaker, with respect, earlier, in response to the last comment made by the member for St. Catharines, you said you would review the blues, listen to the recording and then be able to make a ruling.

I think that the purpose of the last comment made by the hon. member for Lévis—Bellechasse was simply to raise the same matter again, even though you stated earlier that you would take the matter under advisement.

If that is the case, I might as well ask every one of my colleagues from the Bloc Québécois in this House to rise one after the other to elaborate further.

I think, Mr. Speaker, that you noticed that the member for Lévis—Bellechasse was attempting to change the subject just to score a petty political point.

I defer to your decision, Mr. Speaker, which I hope you will come back with at your earliest convenience.

Oral QuestionsPoints of OrderOral Questions

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

I agree. I will come back to the House as soon as possible with a ruling on this matter.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-50, an act to amend the Employment Insurance Act and to increase benefits, be read the third time and passed.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

Before question period, the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot had the floor and was on questions and comments. She still has seven minutes.

The hon. member for Kitchener—Conestoga.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

Conservative

Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON

Mr. Speaker, it has been over an hour since we heard the speech from the member, but if one could judge from the volume of her speech it is certainly obvious that she is very passionate about this issue.

It is important to remind Canadians that Bill C-50 proposes to add an extension of between 5 to 20 extra weeks to help long-tenured workers access employment insurance benefits.

All Canadians would agree that the best way to help unemployed Canadians is to help them get back to work. We have initiated a number of plans: $500 million for training long-tenured workers, $1.5 billion for those on EI who would not normally qualify, and many others.

How can the member opposite look into the eyes of those in her province who are unemployed, who have in some cases worked for many years, some decades, who would qualify for employment benefits under this bill and say, “I'm sorry. You don't qualify because I voted against the measure?”

I would like her answer to that.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

Bloc

Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, I want to tell my colleague across the way that if we are strongly opposed to this bill, it is not so much because of what is in it but because of what is not in it, all that there could be for people who are excluded, who will not qualify for these benefits. The bill adds between five and 20 additional weeks for people who already qualify. What does it do, though, for the 60% of people who do not qualify for even one week of employment insurance?

When people are denied eligibility, it increases the fiscal burden on the Quebec nation. They have to apply for last resort assistance, which is provided by the Government of Quebec. I heard the finance minister say in an economic update that he would take another $19 billion from the employment insurance fund by 2015, even though the government does not put anything into this fund at all any more. It is working people and their employers who contribute to it.

Rather than stealing from the unemployed like the Liberals before them—under their plan, more than $75 billion will have been taken from the fund—the Conservatives should get money from the banks and oil companies, to whom they give tax breaks. They should also eliminate the tax havens and the various measures to help rich people, who do not need them. All of the employment insurance claimants could be helped. This is the kind of assistance the unemployed need.

I look into the eyes of people who knock on my door and who say that although they worked, they did not get employment insurance when their company closed. The government refused to help their company when it was in difficulty and instead gave tax credits to profitable firms. We should always remember that tax credits apply to companies that are already making a profit.

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3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member and I have worked together on committee and I know she is very committed and knows her facts, and I thank her for that.

Much of the debate that went on during report stage and today during third reading went back to the same points about the many sectors in the economy: forestry, fisheries, tourism, and automobile. These industries have associated with them seasonal work and an attachment to the EI system to support the necessary industries because they are seasonal by their nature to some extent or because like the auto industry where there may have to be retooling or refitting of a plant or a layout which may require employees to be laid off.

However, the minister told Canadians that the bill was going to treat all Canadians equitably and fairly with regard to these enhanced benefits under prolonged service. I would ask the member, does she believe that the government has delivered on its promise to make this a bill that is for the benefit of all Canadians, not just some Canadians?

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Bloc

Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my hon. colleague for his excellent question.

Currently, with the bill it introduced, the government is casting aside an entire class of workers, which includes seasonal workers, part time workers, and women. Currently, most of those excluded from this plan are men and women in precarious jobs, who are paying into the plan like any other worker. The fact is that workers start contributing from hour one on the labour market, but a great many of them are excluded when the time comes to claim benefits. Entire regions are penalized by these measures.

There are regions that depend on tourism, agriculture or fisheries. The workers whose employers cannot provide employment on a yearly basis will be penalized. Not only will they not get between 5 and 20 additional weeks of benefits, but there is no guarantee that, from one year to the next, they will meet the eligibility requirements if only to put in a claim and receive a single week of benefits. I think it is shameful for a government to jeopardize economic recovery by mortgaging the future of the workers who find themselves jobless.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is with great interest that I rise to participate again today in the debate on Bill C-50, which seeks to increase the number of weeks for which benefits may be paid, but only to certain claimants.

I am taking part in the debate because my riding, like many other regions, has been hit hard in recent years with the permanent or recurring closure of manufacturing and forestry industries which, unfortunately, have had a great deal of difficulty, while also suffering from a lack of support on the part of government.

As the member for Berthier—Maskinongé, I really wanted to address Bill C-50 and to say how deeply disappointed and even outraged I am when I look at this bill and at the measures that it includes.

As a responsible party that is always defending Quebec's best interests first and foremost, the Bloc Québécois cannot support this bill, because it does not deal with the employment insurance issues. We have had many debates on the EI program since I first came here, in 2004. Moreover, many studies were done with a view to reform the employment insurance system. But today, we are finding out that what the Conservative Party is proposing does not in any way help the majority of workers who lose their jobs. Bill C-50 does not deal with the real problem, which is of course the accessibility issue.

Did this Conservative government really want to help the thousands of workers who need support during a crisis such as the one that we experienced and that we are still experiencing? According to the OECD, the crisis is far from being over. The unemployment rate could still go up a few points before the end of 2010. The government is not helping these workers, because it is not ensuring greater accessibility to the EI program with Bill C-50. Over 50% of those who lose their jobs do not have access to that program. It is shameful. It is shameful to see all that money being spent on federal programs. Right now, the government is spending billions of dollars. For example, there is a conflict in Afghanistan. These are necessary expenditures, but we are talking about a lot of money. Currently, money is being spent on all sorts of programs, but the government is forgetting a group of people who are facing serious socio-economic needs and who have a hard time feeding their families.

As regards the EI eligibility issue, when these workers apply for benefits, too many of them—even though they paid premiums—are told by Service Canada's employment insurance office that they do not qualify for the program. When Quebeckers are not eligible for that program, what other option do they have?

Seasonal workers have worked a significant number of hours. They have worked for many weeks. However, they are not eligible for employment insurance, even if they have paid premiums. Fifty percent of these workers are not eligible for the employment insurance program. What are they to do? They find themselves without income to provide for themselves and their families. They find it impossible to pay for their homes or to meet their financial obligations and their responsibilities to their children. So, they must turn to welfare. It is a disgrace. It is often painful to see these people who must turn to a last-resort solution, when they have worked for many weeks and, in some cases, for many years.

Many times in our riding offices we have met with people who are in this situation. On those occasions, we have worked with them to try to find ways of overcoming the crisis they are going through because they lost their jobs. It is also a family and social crisis because they have no income to meet their needs. This situation is unacceptable.

Bill C-50 does nothing to solve this fundamental and unfair problem that thousands of working men and women face every day in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada. The employment situation remains very difficult, especially in the regions. For example, in the Mauricie, the unemployment rate has increased by 1.6%. It rose from 9.2% in September 2008 to 10.8% in September 2009. That is an increase of almost 2% in employment insurance benefits. If we believe the figures we have received, and which no one in this House questions, only 50% of these people will have access to employment insurance.

Our regions are withering because of this. People are becoming poorer. The most recent statistics show that Canada and Quebec are losing ground as poverty levels increase here.

I said earlier that very significant activity sectors in my riding and elsewhere in Quebec have been affected. I am talking about the forestry and manufacturing industries that occupy a very large place in the Quebec economy. These sectors have been hard hit by the current crisis but ignored by this Conservative government.

The NDP unfortunately supported Bill C-50, which really surprised me. I have been a member of this House since 2004. I always thought that the NDP was truly a party that defended workers, that it had some serious demands with respect to the employment insurance program and that it wanted to improve that program. We are still talking about abolishing the waiting period, which is something the NDP supports.

With Bill C-50, as proposed by the Conservative Party and supported by the NDP, a new category of unemployed people is created. We are talking here about good unemployed people and not so good unemployed people. Those who were lucky enough to have permanent employment for many years but unfortunately lost their jobs are entitled to employment insurance. And let us generously give them that employment insurance.

However, we must not exclude other types of unemployed people who have lost their jobs a number of times over the past few years. They work in the sectors most harshly affected these past few years by the crisis related to globalization and the crisis in the manufacturing sector. They have lost their jobs or have been going through repeated periods of unemployment for years. Workers in the forestry sector are one example.

In rural areas, a number of workers in the tourism sector, a seasonal sector, have lost their jobs. Why would they not be entitled to a generous employment insurance support program? There is no shortage of money in the employment insurance fund. Nearly $60 billion has been accumulated by the Conservative government, with the help of the Liberals, thanks to the contributions from workers and employers. They have cut off access to employment insurance.

It is not right that, in times of crisis, all this money be taken away from workers, workers among the less well-off in society, workers who have been having trouble finding jobs and whose companies have faced economic difficulties. They have had to rely on employment insurance from time to time. Those who go on EI do not have large incomes. They need support. Bill C-50 ignores these workers who need money to support their families.

In my riding, communities like Saint-Gabriel-de-Brandon, Mandeville, Saint-Alexis-des-Monts or Saint-Mathieu-du-Parc, which are rural municipalities, are experiencing job losses in the forestry sector. The Bloc Québécois has repeatedly called for programs to be put in place to support the forestry sector. Unfortunately, the government, supported by members from Quebec, preferred to invest money to support the auto industry in Ontario, while the people of Quebec were going through a serious crisis in the forestry sector. That is sad to say, but it has to be said.

Many people in my riding have been affected by the crisis in the forestry sector. The measures proposed in Bill C-50 will not help these workers. The president of the Quebec Forest Industry Council, whom we know very well, confirmed it when he said that, in recent years, the majority of forestry workers had been unemployed at least ten weeks per year. These are seasonal workers with below average income.

Did the government think about these workers when it drafted Bill C-50, a bill which, as was pointed out in the House, could have been replaced by a simple pilot project? The Conservative Party preferred to defy this House with a vote of confidence. So, it sought the NDP's support to prevent a so-called election. The bill could simply have been made into a pilot project to help the auto workers. Instead, they wanted to put on a show of support for the unemployed in Ontario. They have major electioneering interests in Ontario right now. That is why they introduced Bill C-50.

Everyone pays taxes and everyone pays into the EI system.

My problem with Bill C-50 stems from the fact that this is an issue of personal interest to me, as a social worker and community organizer who worked for years with disadvantaged groups. This is about fairness and justice for all. This should be a fundamental right for every individual in our society. It should be a duty for all parliamentarians in this House to think about this when they pass legislation, when they implement a measure to support those who have health problems, who lose their jobs, or who live in extreme poverty. We are saying that we must be fair and just to all those in need.

This bill is not fair and just to all. It favours a specific group of unemployed people, because the government thinks they should be entitled to five or twenty additional weeks of benefits, since they meet certain criteria or standards that it defined as being appropriate. As for those other unemployed people who were laid off repeatedly and who had to rely on employment insurance, they do not need additional support, based on this government's values. We cannot propose such things. I hope that those who proposed this bill, and those who supported it, will have a talk with some of their fellow citizens when they go back to their ridings.

There is something in which I have a great interest regarding the EI program. Let us take the example of those who work, but who do not have a health care insurance plan or a wage loss plan, as is the case for many non-unionized workers, such as in the manufacturing sector. If these people have cancer or some serious illness, they are only entitled to sickness benefits for a period of 15 weeks under the EI program. It is shameful. How often do we meet, in our riding offices, workers who just found out that they have cancer, for example? When one has cancer, one must get treated. This means radiotherapy, chemotherapy. It is a long process which cannot be completed in 15 weeks. Yet, these people are only entitled to 15 weeks of EI benefits. What are they going to do after?

Battling an illness involves additional expenses. There are costs related to the cure and the recovery. These people are entitled to 15 weeks for radiotherapy or chemotherapy. If, at the end of that period, they cannot go back to work, what are they going to do if they no longer have any income? They will have to rely on social assistance and they will get poorer. They will have to go into debt. Not only will they have to get treated, but they will end up on welfare and get poorer. Their stress level will increase. It is shameful.

Yet, as I always say in this House, huge surpluses have been accumulated in the employment insurance account. The government has wasted money on all sorts of things and activities which, sometimes, are far removed from the interests of workers. That is deplorable.

Of course, we in the Bloc Québécois refuse to support these mean-spirited, demagogic measures that the Conservatives, with the NDP's support, are trying to impose. The bill proposes discriminatory and partisan measures. A bill was not required. It could simply have been a pilot project. This is petty politics at the expense of the unemployed. This policy is unfair and unjust to those who need help. Therefore, as a member who cares about the needs of the people I represent, I absolutely cannot support a bill that is as incomplete and discriminatory as this one. All Bloc Québécois members will oppose this legislation.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened to my hon. colleague's speech and I am surprised that he wanted to force the country into an election. I do not think that it would make any concrete difference, or put any food on the table for our workers.

Our government is offering measures to help workers. We are reaching out to the opposition, to make concrete changes and improvements. For instance, we included the five-week increase in benefits in our economic action plan; we allocated $500 million for career transition; and we are ensuring simplified, quick and efficient employment insurance services. We have trained new employees to deal with the increased demand in that area.

Not only did my colleague oppose that, but he also opposed the idea of keeping workers employed for up to one year, which could be extended to two years. We want to keep people employed and help employers keep their workers through work-sharing and training programs. The Canadian government has made significant investments to help workers.

Why does my colleague refuse to support these measures? Why did he refuse to support the additional 5 to 20 weeks yesterday? Instead of always criticizing, why does he not support these bills, and when they are being studied in committee, why not make recommendations to go along with these goals? Why not vote when we can make concrete changes to help Quebec's workers and unemployed workers?

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3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Mr. Speaker, when our colleague across the way talks about plunging the country into an election campaign, he should not forget last year when the Conservative members flouted a law they themselves had passed and plunged Quebec and Canada into an election.

When our colleague talks about helping Quebec workers, there is a serious problem. I believe it was an article I read in the Globe and Mail recently that said Bill C-50 was obviously intended to provide further support for workers in the Ontario automobile industry. Unfortunately, these people have lost their jobs. They too need help. This is a program focused much more on supporting people in Ontario. In voting for the bill, the hon. member from Quebec is forgetting that there are forest workers, seasonal workers and workers in manufacturing in his riding and all over Quebec—there are some in the Quebec City area—who have lost their jobs.

What they want is the elimination of the waiting period for employment insurance and improvement of the system. Why are these workers not entitled as well to another 5 or 10 weeks of employment insurance? They are being neglected.

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3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, I spoke at report stage on Bill C-50 and dwelled a little on some of the macro issues, many of which the member talked about. Some industries are seasonable by nature. Other industries are cyclical.

I think others have talked about tourism. They have talked about forestry in Ontario. The auto industry substantively relies on and has a linkage to the EI system. Due to the nature of automobile manufacturing, it has to retool when it changes models, all of that. People get laid off and they collect EI for a period of time. The member has made the point well. Some areas do not have the same pattern of long tenure as others.

Specifically, could the member inform the House a bit more about the specifics of the forestry industry? I have always indicated that it falls almost like a hybrid. In some areas of the province or other provinces, forestry may be a year-round business. However, as I understand it, there are seasonal industries in remote areas of Quebec.

Could the member confirm for the House the facts about the forestry industry in Quebec and whether the bill will help all of it?

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3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his excellent question. I would say that the crisis in the forestry sector also poses a serious threat to the survival of many rural municipalities.

The forestry sector has gone through a lot of crises. We well remember softwood lumber. An agreement was signed with the United States but there were still a lot of difficulties for the industry. We know very well that the economic crisis eventually led to various other difficulties because of the reduced demand for lumber.

This sector has had a lot of problems and most areas in it have experienced numerous job losses, over and over for many years.

We looked at this aspect before making our decision about Bill C-50, but it does nothing to help these people access employment insurance. Accessibility is a major problem for them because they are seasonal workers. Not only does Bill C-50 fail to improve the employment insurance system for them, it also does nothing to improve their situation and make employment insurance more accessible.

There are many seasonal workers, therefore, in the forestry sector and elsewhere who have to fall back on social assistance at the end of the month or end of the year.

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3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I congratulate my colleague from Berthier—Maskinongé for his excellent presentation. I would like him to clarify one thing. Earlier, the Conservative member for Lévis—Bellechasse attempted to talk about all the government's good measures. However, the forestry workers, seasonal workers, those who work in tourism and agriculture are simply asking, particularly with regard to employment insurance, that the program money—the $54 billion surplus that both the Liberal and Conservative governments used for other purposes—be used to establish a real program to get through the crisis. That is what the Bloc Québécois has always called for. The forestry industry must be given the same kind of help as the auto industry.

I listened to the Conservative members boasting about how good Bill C-50 will be for the automotive sector.

I hear the member for Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean saying that the market was the problem. I would say to him that the market was also the problem in the case of the automotive sector. American cars were not selling and governments decided to help that industry.

Why are we helping the auto industry and not the forestry industry? I would like my colleague to explain the Conservative position on this issue.

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3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his excellent question.

I think this is clearly a right-wing government that is insensitive to the plight of workers. This government would rather focus on tax havens for big corporations. They see no problem there. Even if we lose billions of dollars in revenue, they do not question it. But they will go after the poor workers who are losing their jobs.

Even though billions of dollars accumulated in a fund, they say that they do not have the money to help workers. This government says it does not have the means to improve access to the EI program. We can see how little this right-wing government cares about human beings. In all of its plans and approaches, this government shows that it is opposed to resolving the climate change issue and opposed to supporting workers. Now, with the H1N1 crisis, we can see how ill-prepared the Conservatives were to put truly effective measures in place to vaccinate the public.

The Bloc Québécois wants the 360 hours for everyone, so that workers can qualify for EI. We want the waiting period to be eliminated, and we want benefits to be increased to 60% of income. That is not outrageous, and we believe that the government has the means to implement these measures.

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3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-50 at third reading.

I had the opportunity to speak yesterday when the bill was at report stage. The report stage motions were carried and the bill has not been reprinted, but I do not think it is consequential to the points that I want to make in summation with regard to Bill C-50.

The Liberals will not be supporting Bill C-50 because it does not deliver what was promised. I should explain.

The Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development sold the idea that the government was going to enhance EI benefits for all Canadians. EI was going to be available equitably to all.

The criteria were set out in a fashion which clearly worked to the advantage of certain kinds of workers who may find themselves unemployed at this time. I looked again at yesterday's debate and I noticed that one of the Conservative members said, “Earlier we heard the member for Mississauga South allude to the forestry sector as being seasonal, which goes a long way to explaining what the Liberals understand about the forestry sector”.

I specifically asked the question just a few moments ago of the hon. member who just spoke. He explained that the forestry industry across Canada is not homogeneous. There are aspects of the forestry sector that do have seasonality.

I also had an opportunity today to ask another member from the Conservative Party whether that member thought this bill was clear as to who was going to benefit and how, and how it was going to roll out. The member's reply is kind of interesting and I think very reflective. He said that one has to have a lot of letters behind one's name to understand how this works.

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3:50 p.m.

An hon. member

Oh, oh!

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3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, a member said that was a cheap shot. It is simply a point to suggest that I do not think many people in this place understand exactly who is going to benefit and how they are going to benefit.

If we do not understand it and we are debating the bill and we are going to vote on a bill that is going to supposedly assist some 190,000 people over the period for which these extended benefits are going to be permitted, how could we expect that those people would understand?

I came to the conclusion that it did not matter whether the people understood because it was not sold on the facts and the details of the technical part of the bill. It was sold as a concept that there are people who are hurting in this environment and the government is going to do something to give them temporary enhanced EI benefits. That is saleable. It is not what is going to be delivered but the concept is saleable. It is politicking. It is not legislating. That is the reason the Liberal Party will not be supporting the bill. It does not deliver what was advertised.

It does not matter to the government. The government really does not care. It does not care whether or not we understand that it is basically a very narrow benefit program and it is going to be extremely difficult to deliver. No one is going to be able to figure out whether or not they qualified and so they will have nothing to complain about.

It is a perfect scenario. It is kind of the perfect storm for a bill. The bill can be made so complicated that no one understands it and no one is going to be able to complain.

I listened to the debate. I spent all day yesterday listening to the debates at report stage. After the bill came back from committee there were three inconsequential report stage motions. They were voted on as a block.

The speeches that were given yesterday were speeches on the bill. Many of the members raised the same point that the human resources minister laid it out that it was a simple puzzle, but this is a complex puzzle.

There are a number of industries across the country which have an attachment to the employment insurance system necessarily because they are seasonal by nature. Examples would be the tourism industry to some extent, some aspects of the forestry industry, and certainly the automobile industry, where a plant will shut down for a month while it is retooled for another model. It is part of the system in which we operate. We need those people to be ready to come back to the job whenever the work is ready to go again.

We also have industries like the petroleum industry. The petroleum industry was booming. The price of oil skyrocketed. The commodity prices were going up, but all of a sudden, maybe as an overall consequence of the economic scenario we are in, commodity prices started to fall. All of a sudden the production of petroleum and gas products, in the west particularly, started to drop off and people started to be laid off. People in that industry had never been laid off before. The petroleum industry always had been a stable, secure employment base. As the rapid massive growth was experienced leading up to the commodity prices going up and the price of a litre of gasoline and the cost of a barrel of oil were going through the roof, more and more people started to leave other areas of the country and they migrated toward Alberta and Saskatchewan. House prices went up. The crime rate in those provinces started to go up because there were many more people, but the provinces did not have the social services, the policing or other things to keep up with the demand for those services. There were a lot of problems. They are still having a lot of problems. That is what happens when there is a severe economic shift and all of a sudden there is a massive movement.

This particular bill definitely will be of significant benefit, of anywhere from five to twenty weeks of additional employment insurance benefits for those who worked in the petroleum industry. They did not have a reliance on EI during their careers. There was always work. It was not seasonal work; it was around the clock, every day, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. The petroleum industry was cranking it out. That is why, when we consider the availability of this benefit, it is clear that this particular bill will be most attractive to people in the petroleum industry, which is mostly in Alberta and Saskatchewan and which is mostly where the government support is.

I am not cynical; those are just the facts, and that is pretty good, but I wonder if the rest of the Canadians understand that of the money that will be spent to pay for the benefits that the bill will provide, it is disproportionately going to people who probably do not really need it. They probably do not need it. Even though they may have been laid off, they had secure full-time employment and no layoffs for years and years because there was no seasonal component. There was no layoff component. People had lots of high paying work.

The equity within the employment insurance system is being tampered with by the bill. It is not how the EI system works today.

Having said that, I would like to make a comment or two on the speech of the Bloc member who just spoke. He referred, as many members have, to the significant employment insurance surplus which exists. Members will know that back in--

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3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

You guys spent it.

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3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

The member said that we spent it. I think it is important to explain that and I hope it will help the member understand what my understanding is.

Back during the Mulroney governments, the two successive majority governments, up to 1993, the EI system was operating at a deficit. It was paying out more benefits than it was taking premiums in. In fact, it was over $12 billion. There was a separate EI account. The government had to continue to fund the overdraft in the separate account. The Auditor General of the day said that because it is a government program it should be included in the consolidated revenue fund or the whole government--

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4 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

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4 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

That was the Conservative Mulroney government, Mr. Speaker, and--

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4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Order. Members will have 10 minutes for questions and comments. If members could just hold off a bit longer, I would be happy to recognize them and they can ask whatever questions they might have.

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4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

Before you ask the member for Mississauga South to re-engage in this stimulating debate, one that has been informative so far, I wonder if you could advise members opposite that in referring to legislation established during the Mulroney years, they cannot use the word “stolen” when they are talking about funds that are part of the consolidated revenue fund. That is expended for government programs which have been approved by the House.

I think that the words “stolen funds” are absolutely unparliamentary. Those members should be embarrassed about exposing themselves to such criticism.

I think, Mr. Speaker, you need to rule on that right now, otherwise the debate will be one where we on this side of the House are speaking to ourselves because the other guys do not understand the language.

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4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I do not see a member from the other side rising. I did not hear anything that was specifically unparliamentary that would impugn the motive of a sitting member of the House of Commons. Having not heard anything unparliamentary, we will go back to the member for Mississauga South.