House of Commons Hansard #106 of the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was c-50.

Topics

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I always appreciate it when members stay in the House when I am speaking.

Canadians understand as well that there was a separate bank account for EI, and it was operating on an overdraft basis; it was in a deficit scenario. The Auditor General told the government that it was a government program, that the financial performance of a government should include all its programs, and that this one shouldn't happen to be set up as a separate bank account. They rolled it into the consolidated revenue fund so that if EI operated at a deficit and everything else broke even, there would be a deficit in the government's financials for the end of the fiscal year on March 31.

Then the Liberals came to power and inherited the $42.3 billion deficit in 1993 from the previous Conservative government. It took three years to balance the budget. Then, all of a sudden, we had 10 years of balanced budgets with no recession. Growth was positive, employment reached a 30-year record, and EI premiums went down for 10 years in a row, year after year. The surplus money coming in was more than the benefits being paid out, and it continued even though the rates were going down. Why? It was because the economy was so healthy and because the job situation was so good for those years between 1993 and 2006.

Yes, there was an EI surplus, but it was a notional surplus, and there is legislation that guides how to deal with it. The legislation says that if there is a surplus in the EI account, or now in the notional EI account, we must do one of two things: either we must reduce premiums paid on a current-year basis or we must increase programs and benefits under the EI fund.

Some of those things happened. As a matter of fact, one of them was my own initiative, which was to extend maternity and parental leave in Canada from six months to a full year. That cost money, and it came out of the notional surplus, but there was still--

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

What are you talking about?

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

I was in the government of the day. It was my private member's item.

I appreciate the member's intervention.

Because it is all in the consolidated revenue fund, there is no money in a bank any more. It has been used to support government programs and services. It has been used to reduce the amount of borrowing that the government had to do in terms of the national debt. Because of the debt scenario, we were saving money, but the rules of the game for operating the notional EI account also said that they will keep track of not only ins and outs of cash in terms of premiums and benefits, but also of the interest, and that was still a credit. All that money belongs to the employers and the employees who put money into it.

Now the current government has decided to scrap all that. We are going to throw all this notional surplus, we are going to take away the $50 billion that was collected in excess of benefits paid out, we are going to put it in our pocket and we are going to pay for the programs the Conservatives have been spewing out the money for.

How are they going to deal with EI in the future? In the last budget they said we are going to have an EI commission that is going to get $2 billion as start-up money. It will be a separate company, and all premiums and all payouts of benefits are going to go through that commission. In fact, we will go back to the same system we used to have.

Now we have a problem. Why? The Parliamentary Budget Officer said just yesterday in his report, which Canadians can read on his website, that we are in a structural deficit and that we will remain in a structural deficit until at least 2013-14, which means that if Conservatives proceed with setting the EI commission with $2 billion and think they are going to balance the books of that separate off-balance-sheet commission by handling premiums coming in and paying out extraordinarily higher benefits, it is going to force the government to start streaming cashflow into it just to hold it solvent and capable of meeting the benefit requirements.

We have come full circle. Brian Mulroney was operating exactly the way the current government wants to go.

The Auditor General has said that is not reflective of the true economics of a government that is using taxpayers' money to operate programs on behalf of the people and that we have to put it all in one big basket. Now the government has passed legislation that is going to unravel this. It is going to pocket the surplus that it collected from Canadians and accumulated in a notional surplus over the 10 years leading up to when the Conservatives took government. The Conservatives are going to just pocket that.

The situation could have been much worse. If the government had to take the $54 billion and put it into this new commission, $54 billion would be added to the current year's deficit. Then we would have a $100 billion deficit in the current year, rather than the $50 billion that it appears we are going to have, and it is growing.

Unemployment is not going to go down very quickly. We were over 9%; we dropped to a little less than 9%. The experts are saying that we can still go to 10%, that these recoveries are fragile, and the Prime Minister is already setting us up for that.

Members have to understand EI has a history to it. EI is an important tool for the government, but EI should not be used as a political prop, and that is exactly what this bill would do. Bill C-50 would not equitably benefit Canadians who have to participate in the EI benefit program that they paid into. They deserve to receive those benefits equitably. That is the reason I do not want to support the bill. My party will not support the bill, and I know that others will not either.

I hope that explains to the member that this is not just trying to make up stories. These are the facts. The current Conservative government inherited a $13 billion surplus from the previous Liberal government and it has been totally squandered. We now find ourselves facing a $50-$60 billion deficit in Canada due to economic mismanagement by the Conservative Party of Canada.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON

Mr. Speaker, the previous speaker has talked about squandering the surplus. Only a Liberal could talk about paying down debt as squandering the surplus. We paid down $37 billion in debt, and he continually refuses to acknowledge that.

How can he vote against these measures, which would definitely help people who have paid into EI for 20 or 30 years and who actually deserve these benefits if they are now looking for jobs? He knows that in this environment it takes longer to find a job, so adding these extra weeks is certainly going to help them.

I would like the member to respond to that.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, the Conservatives inherited a $13 billion surplus. It went to pay down debt, yes, but that had nothing to do with the Conservative government. The election was in January 2006. In the Conservatives' first year of government, the House did not even start until April, after the end of the fiscal year, so the surplus for the year that ended March 31, 2006, was a Liberal surplus, not a Conservative surplus.

If the member is not going to be honest with the House, I do not care to answer his questions on anything.

However, as I have said, I will tell him that yes, some people will benefit from this measure. The point is--and the Bloc has made this point, and the NDP has made this point too--that it is not an equitable program. In fact, it disproportionately benefits some Canadians over others. That is the problem, that is the political stunt, and that is why we will not support the bill.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think it is important that the member for Mississauga South, who is obviously learned in the issues of EI and the way benefits are both accrued and received, give us an indication, if he can. Typically these kinds of things are provided by a government that wants the House of Commons to support its legislation, but we do not have that. Perhaps he could provide them for us, if in fact he had access to them.

Typically what would happen is that the government would say, “Support this bill, because this number of Canadians will be helped by these measures”. That number is usually specific, or else a range is given.

I know the member tried to educate the members on the government side on the way EI works, but they were not listening. Perhaps they already have some information that goes beyond talking points and lines, but perhaps the member of Parliament for Mississauga South would share with us again how people who have already been using the EI system as part of the economic plan of particular industries to keep an ongoing business afloat will now be able to access the benefits under Bill C-50 when the minister has put in place a prohibition for anyone who has already used the system.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member understands and he has explained it very well.

I do not have the kind of information that I wish I had to be able to do the job.

The last issue we dealt with on EI had to do with considering a base benefit requirement, a criterion of 360 hours, to qualify for benefits. The government and the minister specifically and explicitly said that it was too expensive and that we could not do that. I think it was $4.2 billion to have a 360-hour base.

Then as time went on, the government said it was only $2.5 billion, but this was after it had been pooh-poohed. Lo and behold, the Parliamentary Budget Officer finally came to the rescue of Canadians again and said that it was only $1.3 billion.

Had the government and the minister been honest with Canadians and honest with Parliament, we would have had significant EI reform, which would have been to the benefit of all Canadians fairly and equitably.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is obvious government members feel too embarrassed to defend legislation that is so faulty and so blatantly partisan in its politics.

Therefore, on behalf of the public, I have to ask the member for Mississauga South to explain to all Canadians, including the members on the government side, as dogmatic as they might be on the bill, why the legislation will do absolutely nothing to rectify the underlying problem that generated the bill.

To wit, there have been in excess of 500,000 jobs lost in the course of the last 10 months under the stewardship of the Conservatives. Those are 500,000 jobs that are no longer contributing to the gross domestic product of this nation. Those 500,000 jobs represent 500,000 families that now have to go begging because their stewardship has seen the demise of industries in lumber, auto, manufacturing and other industries.

There are 500,000 families now looking for a solution to a problem that the Conservatives created when they took the government, not when other people were in government. Where have the 500,000 jobs gone? The government has introduced a $60 billion deficit. What has it got to show for it besides 500,000 families that can no longer expect to work? The industries that they had have eroded to near zero and have no hope of coming back, especially under Bill C-50, which does nothing from an economic perspective.

It does not alleviate temporary loss. Nor does it build toward the future. What did the $60 billion of deficit do? Perhaps the member for Mississauga South, using his experience and expertise, can do the job of the members of Parliament from the government side and explain the unexplainable, that $60 billion of deficit and 500,000 jobs lost do not translate into any benefits for the 500,000 families that look to Parliament and the Conservative government for any solution or hope for the future.

I hope people in the gallery recognize that when it comes to stewardship, management of the economy and care for the public, they should not look in the direction of the Conservatives. Maybe the member for Mississauga South will enlighten them as to why the government has been derelict in its duty.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, when one considers what the government has or has not done under the tragic circumstances of the H1N1 preparedness program, all I can say is it is not getting the job done. Consider what it is doing on EI, where those who least need it are being disproportionately benefited. With regard to EI, it is not getting the job done.

When the financial crisis came about and people started losing their jobs, everybody agreed that the first thing to do was to try to save existing jobs to the extent possible. Second, was to try to invest in those areas that offered the greatest possibility for employment creation. Third, was to properly manage the resources.

What happened? The government did not get it. It let infrastructure money lapse last year. It did not get it out on time. It is always behind. People have lost their jobs and then it offers money for a project that it cannot get going for two years. Again, it is not getting the job done.

I would like to ask for the unanimous consent of the House to have an additional 10 minutes to complete my comments for the members so they can understand clearly that they are not getting the job done.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House to extend his speech by 10 minutes?

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Speaker, I must enter into the debate, especially since we have deprived my hon. colleague an opportunity to extend the debate by 10 minutes. Again, this is an indication, and this is for the public, of the government trying to control the message and shutting down debate. It has a very poor understanding of parliamentary purpose. I say this especially for the new members who already sit in cabinet. Parliamentary purpose suggests that ideas and plans are put forward. The government proposes and Parliament disposes.

The unfortunate fact is the government has proposed nothing from an economic point of view. Everyone who is watching this debate ought to ask one very simple question.

We have Bill C-50. This is supposed to be such a great bill. It saved the hide of Conservative members, but how many jobs? Some members actually get the point. How many jobs would Bill C-50 create? How many people can go back to work? How many industries are now in a position where they can begin or recommence a business enterprise that will engage people and draw upon the human resources potential of our country? I mean the country, not Conservative ridings. I mean every man and woman who wants to get a job in whatever industry, be they seasonal, be they ongoing, be they in the area of skills development, research, manufacturing or agriculture.

We want to know, we should know and the Canadian public should be advised by government members about the number of industries that now will be more fluid and will be in a position to put up a “help wanted” signs to engage Canadians who want to contribute and who want to earn money so their families can continue both with their future and with the opportunity to build the country.

I have gone through every line of the bill, and I keep asking myself this. Where are the jobs? Where are the industries? I would like to hear the name of one. There is not a single one. This was prompted in part to see if the government could assuage the desires of some members of all caucuses who are in towns that have one industry only, particularly in the lumber industry in northern Quebec, northern Ontario, the interior of British Columbia, parts of Alberta and even parts of Saskatchewan.

I have not referred to the Atlantic provinces just yet, but there are some 350 communities in the country that are dependent on the lumber industry alone, pulp and paper and the like.

Members can look through the bill and I challenge them to once find the word “lumber”, to find the words for “pulp and paper”, to find the words “developing new markets for Canadian products”.

Those of us who believe in building the country, and I hesitate to say Liberal because it would mean we are arrogant because we want to build the country, have always bristled at the accusation that we are hewers of wood and drawers of water. However, in today's economic environment, brought about by a Conservative government, would that we could hew some wood so we could supply the appropriate marketplaces in emerging economies elsewhere around the globe.

There is nothing like this in Bill C-50. There is nothing for those 350 communities on which families depend on the lumber industry. There is nothing for those families that are unemployed, because of the mismanagement perpetrated by the government, in a time of crisis for them to draw on the EI system. Why? Because they have already drawn on it.

The conditions built into Bill C-50 by the minister and her cabinet tell us that those 350 communities around the country and others that have other businesses as well are fresh out of luck because that is the mantra by which the government operates, “If you're not on our side, too bad”.

Do we want to have management of an economy? The Minister of Foreign Affairs says that it is a synchronized global recession. Please. What happens? Everybody in the world says that at 10 o'clock sharp we all will go into a recession and Canadians can then use that as an excuse for not doing anything. I have never heard so much junk in my life. When the government is doing well, what does it say is happening in the rest of the world? Nothing. Only in Canada do things go well. That is nonsense too.

The fact is the Conservatives were elected to govern and they decided not to do that. What is the first thing that Canadians want from a government? They want it to manage the economy and to provide for their future. That is the only rationale.

The one job that we have in the House is to approve expenditures to achieve that objective. That expenditure is often attached to getting the rest of the collective to make contributions.

We would be delighted to support a bill that could illustrate that such a plan were in place. Bill C-50 does not have such a plan. It does not help those people who need it most because of the government's mismanagement. It does not help those industries that want to get off the ground.

Things have been going not too badly in Saskatchewan, but there was a time when things were not going that well at all. In a province of one million Canadians, people in Saskatchewan have to think about what they need. They need contributions and management of an agricultural system and an agri-produce system access to markets both to the south and east-west and then beyond. Saskatchewan needs a gateway strategy that would give it an opportunity to access emerging markets and emerging demand elsewhere. That is what is needed in Saskatchewan. As well, Saskatchewan needs the opportunity to develop the petrochemical industries and the big petroleum potash industries that have developed over the course of the last several years.

Is there anything for those industries and those enterprises in Bill C-50? I challenge not only everybody in the House, but anybody watching the debate, to find something for those industries in the bill. They are not going to find a thing.

Why should we support a bill that has nothing for the grand economic scheme of the country? Why should we support a bill that leaves Canadians hanging out to dry? We should not because there is nothing there.

A big fraud is being perpetrated under the bill that suggests the government will actually do something for the unemployed. There are seven conditions and they are associated with period of time, with engagement. All of them really say that anyone who is unemployed can access the employment insurance fund.

The fact is none of the 500,000 unemployed will be able to access the fund. None of those industries, especially the ones in the Golden Horseshoe in southern Ontario, will be able to access the fund. None of the employees of those manufacturing enterprises are going to be able to access greater funds, greater time under Bill C-50.

Members of the government stand up almost boldfaced and say that the bill is the next best thing since sliced bread. I ask them to tell us how many slices there are in this loaf. I ask them to tell us how many jobs will be created. I ask them to tell us the amount of money that will come out. I note there are no dollar values associated with the bill. There is nothing whatsoever.

What they are doing is asking all of the opposition members just to accept that the government is right when it says that it knows what is best for the country. But what is that, exactly? What is the plan? Where are the numbers? Where are the dollar amounts? Where are the employment, job creation, economic stimulus and new market development strategies? There are none. There is just a question: will we support the government? What a question.

We were elected to the House of Commons to help ordinary Canadians achieve their ambitions, to give them a voice. That voice says that we have dreams for our families, that we demand plans, education, training, human resources development, export development, and community development. None of that is in this bill.

How can anyone support a bill that has nothing to offer in terms of ideas, plans, numbers or dollar amounts? Clearly, people need more than that. People deserve more. Real Canadians want, demand and have the right to more from their government. All they have right now is a fraud. Bill C-50 is nothing but a fraud. It contains neither substance nor ideas. It is nothing but subterfuge.

Parliament is not built on subterfuge. Parliament is built on the ambitions of real live Canadians to affect the future for their friends, their community, and members of family to ensure that a society that we perpetuate, that we promote, is seen as a beacon worldwide, and such used to be the case. It used to be that Canada regularly ranked number one in the human rights index all over the world.

Everywhere it was said Canada was the best place to live, the best place for people to effect the possibility of realizing their personal and community ambitions. They would do that because governments were engaged with people. They would do it because there were not media lines to offer as a substitute for answers to questions on substance. The lines, if they were provided, would have said under Bill C-50 these are the number of jobs that will be created and these are the number of industries that are going to be able to function.

Perhaps without introducing a moment of levity, even though we had a great and attentive audience the moment that Conservative members spoke up, they said that is it, we do not want to have an interruption. So it is unfortunate that the public reacts the way that I do. They vote with their feet. They get up and leave at the first expression of life by a member of the government side.

Unfortunately, that first expression of life was one that expressed surprise at being alive. Now if we can take them to the next step, we can say now that we have their awakened attention, perhaps we can repeat some of those questions because it is only by repetition that people will recall their function. The function as members of Parliament is to represent their people and to represent their ambition, not their own. It is their function to deal with them in a fashion that will allow them to use their own talents, their own expertise to realize an activity, an entrepreneurialism that gives them satisfaction, and, yes indeed, a reward that they can share with those that they hold most dear.

However, Bill C-50 does nothing of that sort. In fact, Bill C-50 is such a crass and void of substance bill that it really insults Canadians. It says, “Please accept the principle that we are the best thing that could happen to the Parliament of Canada and do not ask any questions”. That is what the Conservatives asked. Note that members on this side are the only ones who have been asking questions in debate, aside from some snarky comments, and who actually offer a position, one that does not come from the lines that have been dictated by the Prime Minister's Office.

I imagine it would be rather humbling, rather than say humiliating, for members who sit on the cabinet benches or even in the backbenches of the government side to be greeted at the door and given a little pamphlet because it appears now we have gone into government by pamphlets. Pamphleteers have become the government of the day. Here is the pamphlet from which members shall read and read nothing else.

I know you are an avid historian, Mr. Speaker, but it is a little bit like Mao's little red book which was the doctrine of the day. Imagine an entire country in excess of one billion people having to read a little red book.

The Conservatives have reduced that. The Prime Minister's Office has said, “No, our people cannot read that much, they are given a little pamphlet which is a fold-over. That is the sum total of the lines and if you cannot read those lines you cannot offer an opinion”.

So here we are in a situation now where the government by pamphleteers is faced with a situation where it cannot explain to the Canadian public why Bill C-50 should be supported. I wonder if the pamphleteers would send out pamphlets saying, “The 500,000 people who had a job before the last election and are no longer employed have the government to thank”.

I wonder if those pamphleteers would say those 500,000 families, which now must rely on the munificence of government programs, can no longer do so, because the government of pamphleteers says, “We do not really believe in government engagement in the personal lives of individuals. Let them fend for themselves”. I wonder if the government of pamphleteers might dare to send out messages saying, “Your industry has gone under, thanks to the government's action or inaction on a global scale or even on a local scale”.

I will resist the temptation to delve in detail, but it will serve the purpose to simply say, “If we cannot put a cheque in front of your enterprise, we are not going to be interested in whether it survives or not”. Such is the government of pamphleteers that would have this House accept Bill C-50 as an effective agenda for developing this country.

It is an embarrassing issue to ask members of Parliament to support a bill devoid of numbers, dollar amounts, job training facilities, job opportunities, employment strategy, developing of industries that have gone under and not likely to recover soon. Then to say that it is all as a result of the international devil called synchronized recession. And if it cannot cope, it would be embarrassing for any government to say it cannot cope. That is what the government is asking the House of Commons to approve. That is the principle that Conservatives are asking opposition members to say yes to when they ask us to support Bill C-50.

I do not think there are members on this side of the House who have intervened in debate who want to give the government approval for that principle.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Order. Before moving on to questions and comments, it is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, Canada Media Fund; the hon. member for Mississauga South, Natural Resources.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Brome—Missisquoi.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is a shame to interrupt the member for Eglinton—Lawrence's tirade, but I would like to ask him a practical question.

Earlier, a member opposite said that providing extended employment insurance benefits will give unemployed workers a better chance of finding work because these days, people need more time to find work. That is true, but just a few months ago, people collected, on average, 17 weeks of benefits. Now it might be 20 or 21 weeks. I do not think that we have reached a point where we need to select a few individuals and give them benefits for a longer period.

I would like the member for Eglinton—Lawrence to explain why the Conservatives think that this will help people find jobs.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his question. I also note that it is once again an opposition member who cares about the future of his constituents, the future of Canadians.

I think the answer is simple. The bill introduced by the government contains no plan. When talking about a plan, it is not a question of selecting certain individuals; we are talking about a plan that applies to anyone. The plan should be for everyone, the entire community. The plan should help individuals, and groups of individuals; it should help industries and help the community get through tough times, and it should always focus on a plan for the future. This bill contains no plan for the future. It merely suggests that the government could perhaps help people. What people? What families? Where are those people and those families?

Perhaps the members are a little restless, but it is a serious question. The member who asked the question knows very well. This is not a matter of democratically choosing one person and rejecting another. We are elected to this House to create programs that apply to everyone. Where is everyone in this bill? The member understands that the bill contains no plan and does not benefit everyone.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Is the House ready for the question?

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

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4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

All those opposed will please say nay.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

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4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

In my opinion the nays have it.

And five or more members having risen:

The recorded division on the motion stands deferred until the end of government orders today.