House of Commons Hansard #128 of the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was documents.

Topics

Opposition Motion--Documents Regarding Afghan DetaineesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Madam Speaker, I have a different version of what happened at my committee. Chairs do not make those kind of decisions. The committee makes those decisions. I would remind the member that he was the chair of procedure and House affairs and he was fired and thrown out.

The member suggests that there is information in these documents that may impact persons and their safety and security. If that is the case, we have the tools. However, it is not just our right to have the documents, it is our duty to get them to do our job. That is very important and that is the difference. If there are national security and safety risks, I can assure the House that Parliament would not allow that to happen.

It is important to understand that the government must start operating in good faith. There are ways of doing that either in camera or by swearing in those who are not privy councillors.

The member should not tell me that this is so. He should prove it to me. The government can start by the Colvin documents. If the government could do that, it would be very clear that the government has not been honest with Canadians.

Opposition Motion--Documents Regarding Afghan DetaineesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Pomerleau Bloc Drummond, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague from Mississauga South, and I have a general question that I have been wanting to ask for two weeks now.

Other countries are currently in Afghanistan to participate in this war, whether or not they should be. Other countries are faced with the exact same problems we are: respecting the Geneva convention, protecting their soldiers and being open with their own citizens. But this is the only country that is experiencing this type of problem.

Is it because the opposition here is too vocal? Is it that in other countries the opposition does not do its job as well? What is the fundamental reason why this is the only country that is discussing this issue, among others, today, although all the other countries have had to face these situations?

Opposition Motion--Documents Regarding Afghan DetaineesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Madam Speaker, I am aware that Canada has the weakest protocol of any of the other countries in Afghanistan. However, the member simply reminds all of us that the question is very serious. As the member from the Bloc just said, we are talking about compliance with the Geneva Convention; we are talking about human rights.

I know the government always says, “You have to support our troops. We are in a terrible environment, and things sometimes happen”. Things sometimes happen, but we have to do everything possible and show good faith in taking all necessary steps so that bad things do not happen.

The government is still refusing to show good faith and put the necessary safeguards in place and to be open and honest with Canadians and parliamentarians.

Opposition Motion--Documents Regarding Afghan DetaineesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Madam Speaker, I have a couple of points. The member for Mississauga South referred to Richard Colvin as a whistleblower. I would ask him to reconsider that. Mr. Colvin was doing his job in reporting to his superiors and warning them of the danger of breaching international legal obligations. He appeared before the committee—a command performance, one could say—at its request. He was also subpoenaed before the MPCC, and he was doing his duty to respond to the subpoena. I think it is proper to characterize him as a public servant doing his duty.

It seems that members on the government side appear not to take the obligations and precedence of Parliament seriously and the fact that Parliament has the overriding right to this. Is the member satisfied that the government is going to comply with this order, should it be passed by the House today?

Opposition Motion--Documents Regarding Afghan DetaineesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Madam Speaker, I take the comments of the member respectfully. Mr. Colvin is not a whistleblower. That was his job. He communicated and then found himself in a position where he was told to stop putting things in writing. He was told to do it verbally. Why? Because there is no trail, no evidence. There is hearsay. That is what it is.

People get those kind of instructions. We have even dealt with it in our own committee on access to information, privacy and ethics, where there is a concerted effort to get around the requirements under the Access to Information Act by not having documents created that should be created.

This is very deep. It is very serious. We take this seriously, and it is about time the government took it seriously.

Opposition Motion--Documents Regarding Afghan DetaineesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Cambridge Ontario

Conservative

Gary Goodyear ConservativeMinister of State (Science and Technology) (Federal Economic Development Agency for Southern Ontario)

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The member made some statements earlier that the record reflects something different. I wonder if I could get unanimous consent from the House to table the documents.

Opposition Motion--Documents Regarding Afghan DetaineesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

Is there unanimous consent?

Opposition Motion--Documents Regarding Afghan DetaineesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Opposition Motion--Documents Regarding Afghan DetaineesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Pontiac Québec

Conservative

Lawrence Cannon ConservativeMinister of Foreign Affairs

Madam Speaker, my first words in this debate will be to remind my colleagues of this solitary stark fact: we are at war. Of all people, we should never forget that.

As we speak, thousands of our soldiers are risking their lives in the most dangerous place in the world. They are defending the values, institutions and principles that our great democracy represents. They are fighting to bring freedom, security and justice to one of the poorest, most vulnerable states in the world.

And what does the opposition, all three opposition parties, want to discuss today? The progress of our mission? No. The safety of our soldiers? No. Are they worried about the criminal and cruel tactics employed by the enemy? No. What all three opposition parties want is to obtain access to secret documents to try to prove that our enemies in Afghanistan are mistreated by their own people.

For weeks the opposition, all three opposition parties, have been desperately trying to embarrass the government by alleging that our troops and civilian personnel in theatre of war are somewhat complicit in torture. The reputation of our armed forces, police personnel and diplomatic service be damned. They, all three opposition parties, are searching every nook and cranny to unearth some kind of evidence that would show Canada is responsible for the commission of war crimes.

I am not even sure the opposition, once again all three opposition parties, care that the release of information they are demanding would be irresponsible and damaging to our national interests. They do not accept that section 38 of the Canada Evidence Act, which puts restrictions on the release of information for reasons of national defence and national security, applies in this case.

In defining national security, I want to remind everyone that the federal courts determined that this includes information provided in confidence by foreign agencies and confidential diplomatic exchanges. Many, if not most, of the documents that the opposition has identified fall into these categories. We are bound to respect our obligations under the law not to release information that would put our national security at risk.

National security, protecting our troops, the success of our mission, those are words that you do not often hear from an opposition member. All risks are good, even giving information to the enemy, because we truly are facing enemies. We do not run any prisons in Afghanistan.

The commitment of the government is clear. It has been repeated many times by the Prime Minister. All the information that can be released will be made available to members of the special committee. Last week we released some of the documents that have been asked for by the committee. The documents produced for the Military Police Complaints Commission alone constitute several thousand pages.

We also have obligations to confidentiality in our relationship with the International Committee of the Red Cross, which plays an important monitoring role of detainees in Afghanistan. This organization is mandated under national humanitarian law to visit detainees. It works to improve the conditions of detention of detainees and to ensure they are treated humanely and receive judicial guarantees according to international standards.

Information on ICRC visits to detainees is shared only between the ICRC and the detaining power. The ICRC's activities are based on a policy of confidentiality, which is key to maintaining its neutrality and impartiality and to securing access to detainees and people in need in various contexts around the world.

Officials of my department meet regularly with the ICRC in Geneva, Washington and in their field offices around the world, including Afghanistan. Releasing the details of those discussions would not only jeopardize our relationship with a long-standing partner but compromise its ability to do its important job effectively in Afghanistan.

The irresponsible demands of the opposition could also bring harm to third-party organizations and individuals our diplomats often meet with confidentially.

Finally, I would also remind—

Opposition Motion--Documents Regarding Afghan DetaineesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

I regret interrupting the hon. minister.

It being 5:22 p.m., and today being the last allotted day for the supply period ending on December 10, 2009, it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the supply proceedings.

The question in on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

Opposition Motion--Documents Regarding Afghan DetaineesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Opposition Motion--Documents Regarding Afghan DetaineesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Opposition Motion--Documents Regarding Afghan DetaineesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Opposition Motion--Documents Regarding Afghan DetaineesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

All those opposed will please say nay.

Opposition Motion--Documents Regarding Afghan DetaineesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Opposition Motion--Documents Regarding Afghan DetaineesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

In my opinion, the nays have it.

And five or more members having risen:

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the amendment which was agreed to on the following division:)

Vote #154

Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

I declare the amendment carried.

The next question is on the main motion as amended. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion as amended?

Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gordon O'Connor Conservative Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON

Mr. Speaker, if you seek it, I believe you will find agreement to apply the vote from the previous motion to the current motion.

Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Speaker

Is that agreed?

Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Vote #155

Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

I declare the motion as amended carried.

Supplementary Estimates (B)Government Orders

5:55 p.m.

Provencher Manitoba

Conservative

Vic Toews ConservativePresident of the Treasury Board

moved:

That the supplementary estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010, be concurred in.

Supplementary Estimates (B)Government Orders

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?