Debates of Dec. 10th, 2009

Afghanistan

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, these matters are under review. However, the leader of the NDP should know that the facts are absolutely clear. He knows what those facts are. He should stop distorting those facts.

Members of the Canadian Forces and the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs have conducted themselves with extraordinary valour in a very difficult situation in Afghanistan. Whenever faced with difficult situations, they have responded and taken corrective actions. They should be praised for those actions.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister told us repeatedly that no allegations of mistreatment had been proven.

Yet the report released yesterday says that the Canadian Forces, “photographed the individual prior to handing him over, to ensure that if the Afghan National Police did assault him, as has happened in the past, they would have a visual record of his condition”.

How many cases of detainee mistreatment is the minister hiding and trying to sweep under the carpet?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway]

Mr. Speaker, as we know, the Chief of the Defence Staff has clarified the issue, once again demonstrating the professionalism of our forces from top to bottom and through the ranks.

More than that, over two and a half years ago, we improved upon the failed arrangement in place, left by the government opposite. We then went on to increase monitoring and mentoring within the prison system, working with police and prison guards and investing in the physical infrastructure of Afghan jails.

Those are concrete actions. Those are demonstrations of actions that have made a real difference in Afghanistan and a real, lasting legacy of our—

[The Speaker, Liberal, Peter Milliken]

The hon. member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence said, “The truth is there is no credible evidence to suggest that a prisoner was ever tortured.”

Yet the evidence shows that, in 2006, our soldiers began taking photos of detainees because they knew that the Afghan police had tortured or abused prisoners in the past.

How many cases of abuse or torture is the government trying to hide?

When will a public inquiry be called so we can finally learn the truth?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway]

Mr. Speaker, she is talking about normal procedures carried out by the professional and very capable members of the Canadian Forces in the field. What they continue to do is work hard to mentor, to train and to leave a lasting legacy that will serve that country and enhance our country's reputation.

This mission is something that has been difficult and has been challenging, but great strides have been made to improve its justice system and human rights. That has been done on the backs of the hard work, the blood, sweat and tears and sacrifice of the Canadian Forces and our diplomatic corps.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the defence minister, on November 23, said:

There has never been a single proven allegation of abuse involving a prisoner transferred by the Canadian Forces, not one.

In one question period alone, the minister repeated this line no less than five times. There was no ambiguity, no uncertainty, just an unqualified statement dismissing disturbing allegations of torture, a statement we now know was false.

Why did the defence minister fail to ensure he was speaking the truth before answering in this House? Why was it left to the Chief of the Defence Staff to uncover the minister's falsehood?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway]

Mr. Speaker, at 9:30, when the Chief of the Defence Staff called to share this new information with me, that is what happened. We accept his version of the truth. I and members of the government act on information received from our military, from our professional public service. We continue to act on their advice. We continue to work with them to carry out our important work in Afghanistan. Great progress is being made, improving its human rights and improving its jail system through monitoring and mentoring. We have made great strides also improving upon the failed record of the member and his government.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Speaker, there was nothing new about this information. The Chief of the Defence Staff asked questions, dug, sought out the facts and then did the honourable thing. He told the Canadian public the truth.

His integrity, our soldiers' integrity, is not in question. The minister's is. The minister stated a falsehood, stated it with certainty, asked no questions and made no apologies for misleading the House or Canadians.

Was the minister incompetent or dishonest? Why did he not ask questions to fight and get the truth? When will he stop using our troops as a shield, take responsibility and resign?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway]

Mr. Speaker, as I have said now a number of times, when the Chief of the Defence Staff called a press conference to correct the record yesterday, he did so with the utmost integrity and honour, as he always would, as members of the Canadian Forces have in carrying out their duties. Any time there has been credible evidence, they have acted as they did in this instance, as they did on other occasions. We have great faith and confidence in them.

The hon. member may want to play politics with this issue. He may want to, by implication, smear the Canadian Forces. We are not going to do that. We are going to continue to support them, give them the resources they need and back them 100%.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence tried to minimize his government's complicity in the torture of Afghan prisoners by saying that the government did not deliberately hand them over to be tortured. However, the Geneva convention is clear: Canada is obliged to ensure that the prisoners handed over to Afghan authorities are not at risk of being tortured. Doing otherwise constitutes a war crime.

Does the Prime Minister not believe that it is high time to dismiss the Minister of National Defence, who refuses—

[The Speaker, Liberal, Peter Milliken]

The hon. Minister of National Defence.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway]

Mr. Speaker, again, our diplomats and our professional military on the ground in Afghanistan and on 18 other missions continue to distinguish themselves by their hard work and their integrity, as, by the way, do the military leadership and members of the professional public service who testified before a parliamentary committee, all of whom confirmed the government's position, and that was we acted appropriately.

We took the information they gave us to make the right decisions. In each and every instance, the Canadian Forces have done the right thing, as they did in the case in question. We continue to support them. We want to see them succeed. We want to see our country succeed. I wish the hon. member shared that sentiment.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. Speaker, a number of law professors believe that this government could be convicted of war crimes. According to Errol Mendes of the University of Ottawa, the law is clear: when there is a substantial risk of torture, there is an absolute obligation to stop transferring prisoners. We learned yesterday that the government has known since 2006 that prisoners handed over to Afghan authorities are at risk of being tortured.

Are these serious accusations not enough to justify a public inquiry?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway]

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting to hear a Bloc member referring to the star NDP candidate who has accused people such as Rick Hillier of being guilty of war crimes in the past. He pulled the same PR stunt back in 2007.

This is Michael Byers, who only a month ago was advocating a new coalition between the Liberals and the NDP. Apparently this is the same kind of coalition and the same kind of systemic attack that we have seen in the past against our men and women in uniform.

We will not stand for it. We will stand up for our men and women in uniform and support them all the way. I invite her to do the same thing.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we are talking about the responsibility of the minister and the government, not of the troops in Afghanistan.

Abraham Lincoln said, “You may fool all the people some of the time...but you can't fool all of the people all the time”.

That is precisely what is going on with the Conservatives who, through cover-up and falsehoods, have become entangled in versions on torture in Afghanistan that no one believes.

Could the minister show a modicum of respect for the public, the soldiers and their families, diplomats and this House and call an independent public inquiry immediately?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member might want to check that point. I think it was P.T. Barnum who said it. But I will tell him what honest Abe did do, he tried to unify a nation. He tried to bring people together during a time of war.

That is what great Canadians do. They get behind their forces. They back them. They give them the necessary resources. They give them the necessary support that they need when they are doing difficult work.

The hon. member continues to play cheap politics. He continues to use wedge politics. We will support our forces. We will see our country succeed with no help from him.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister and the minister have as much credibility on torture in Afghanistan as Richard Nixon did during Watergate. In fact, they are using the same political approach: control information, cover up, and start smearing others.

Will the Prime Minister have the decency to put his version to the test and call an independent public inquiry immediately?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway]

Mr. Speaker, let us look at the facts again. When we inherited this mission, we discovered very quickly there was a need for a change. There was a need to invest in resources to give the Canadian Forces the tools they needed to do the job, as well as the need to improve the Afghans' justice system. That meant investing in their system, mentoring and having more monitoring. All of that was enabled by a new enhanced transfer arrangement which our government did. We took that responsibility, having recognized the important improvements and changes that had to occur. As a result, things are better in Afghanistan today. Three years later things are looking much better as a result of this government's actions.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday when General Natynczyk honourably stepped forward to correct the record he said, “If this is the information I'm finding out this morning at 9:00 on the 9th of December, what else is there...?”

The general recognizes that something is not right. Why will the government not follow the general's lead and appoint a public inquiry rather than stonewalling and censoring everything in sight?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway]

Mr. Speaker, more of the same implicit contradictions; wash me but do not make me wet. We want to support the military, we want to suggest somehow that we take the word of the general and yet the general said at the same press conference that we are going to have a military board investigation to find out about this information, that we are going to follow up through the military to see what happened.

The hon. member should take a look at what the general said, the entire part of his press conference where he talked about how we will get to the bottom of it. In the meantime, the member should recognize the improvements that have been made. She should recognize the failures of her government and the improvements we have made in the mission on this side of the House.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Mr. Speaker, before yesterday there was already overwhelming evidence that a Canadian-transferred detainee had been abused. There were photographs before and after. There were notes from a soldier on the ground. There were notes from a medic discussing the injuries. Officials knew that abuse was systemic. That is why the photos were taken. This information has been available to the government since 2006 and it failed to act for over a year.

Will the government make the arresting officer, the medic, Colonel Noonan and General Deschamps available to Parliament so Canadians can get the truth?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway]

Mr. Speaker, and of course once again the member leaves out the important fact that the Chief of the Defence Staff did not have that information, but when he did, he passed it on to us. As always, we act on the information available to us. We act on the information given to us by diplomats. When we do, we are able to make important improvements, as we did with the transfer arrangement, as we did with issues related to the prisons and human rights. We made important changes that improved upon the failed record of her government, improved upon the inadequate arrangement. We made important changes and investments in mentoring and training. Making things better, that is what our diplomats and soldiers do. She adds nothing to this file.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Speaker, General Natynczyk's revelations yesterday are indisputable: yes, the detainees transferred to the Afghan authorities were tortured. We have been asking the Conservatives the question for years. After all the questions in this House, it was only yesterday that a bit of light was shed.

If this is not an operation to hide the truth from Canadians, then what is it? Crass incompetence on the part of the minister?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway]

Mr. Speaker, again, let me point out that all of the witnesses we have heard, with one exception, have testified on their version of what was happening in Afghanistan at the time because they were closest to the mission. They are top generals and bureaucrats who were in charge of this mission. We received that information through that prism.

The hon. member and most of the opposition continually suggest that they can accept that testimony and that evidence, but somehow suggest that the government should have come to different conclusions. I would ask the hon. member to somehow try to square that circle and figure out that this is the information that we acted upon.

When we took over this mission in 2006, there were many things that were wanting. We made positive improvements.