House of Commons Hansard #29 of the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was justice.

Topics

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3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Madam Speaker, the hon. member points out how difficult it is to get anything done. I think I have the grocery list of his reservations. He says that his party will support certain of the principles. Well, that is encouraging. He says that his party will consider some amendments and it has some problems with mandatory minimum sentences. This is why nothing was done in the last Parliament. These things were held up. These were good things that out the right message.

The hon. member wants to know what happens if, instead of getting 10 years, a person gets a lesser sentence, but now it will be increased to 25 years for someone committing murder, will this stop this individual. It may or may not but I do know that for last 15 years they will not be out on the streets participating in gangland activity and there will be a lot fewer victims in this country when longer sentences are served.

The hon. member has completely focused on the individual who has committed these terrible crimes. I say, how many people are victims or will be protected from being victims when we do get these individuals off the streets? I ask the hon. member to put aside his ideology with respect to this and think of his constituents. He should talk to the police forces in Montreal. Police agencies in Montreal tell me that they want these kinds of provisions. They want help on these issues.

I am hoping that the hon. member will not be stuck in the rut that he and members of his party are in and support these measures and get them going because we have a lot more to do.

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3:55 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

The member for Hochelaga for a very brief question.

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3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Madam Speaker, under the Criminal Code, a person who commits a murder for the benefit of a criminal organization is liable to imprisonment for life.

I would ask the minister to stop serving up his patented Conservative rhetoric and tell us how the new offence he is creating will be different. That is my question, and I would like a clear answer.

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3:55 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

The hon. minister has one minute to answer.

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3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Madam Speaker, if the hon. member thinks it is the same, then he should get right behind this and support it. If he thinks this is not a big change, there should not be any big problem for him.

I have told him before that his constituents will actually thank him for getting tough on criminals and the people involved in gangland activity, as opposed to people complaining about the poor fellow getting 25 years in jail. His constituents will thank him for moving ahead on these things and making our streets safer. That is what he should be doing.

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3:55 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

The member for Saint-Boniface for another very brief question.

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3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

Madam Speaker, I want to commend our justice minister for everything that he pointed out here today.

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3:55 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

Is the member not in her regular seat?

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3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

No, I am not in my chair.

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3:55 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

I cannot recognize the member.

Resuming debate.

The hon. member for Beauséjour.

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3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Madam Speaker, this is the first time I have had an opportunity to speak to the House when you have been in the chair. I congratulate you on your appointment as Acting Speaker.

I am very happy to speak on behalf of the Liberal opposition on Bill C-14, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (organized crime and protection of justice system participants).

Let me be very clear at the outset: the Liberal Party will be supporting Bill C-14. In fact, the Liberal Party offered to work with the government to expedite the passage not only of Bill C-14, but of the companion Bill C-15, which amends the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. We see this debate as important, but we also see a need to be expeditious and to ensure that these measures are adopted in due course, without undue obstruction or delay.

The Liberal Party views the improvements brought in Bill C-14 as modest measures. We see them as needed to address the real concern for public safety, particularly in communities that have seen the devastating effects and associated violence of organized crime, most recently in Vancouver. We think the government could have gone further in a number of measures. I will be addressing those in a few minutes.

Basically, Bill C-14 seeks to make four changes. It changes the sentencing provisions of the Criminal Code so that every murder committed in connection with a criminal organization is to be considered first-degree murder, regardless of whether there was premeditation. It creates a separate drive-by shooting offence, with a minimum mandatory sentence of four years.

The minister likes to talk about creating this important drive-by shooting offence. If he is honest, he will hardly be able to say that it is a glaring hole in the Criminal Code at present. Anybody who engages in such reckless criminal behaviour as a drive-by shooting surely would be facing severe criminal penalties now. However, if the bill provides a measure of assurance to the public that there would be a separate offence with a four-year mandatory minimum sentence, the Liberal Party sees that as reasonable.

Bill C-14 also creates mandatory minimum sentences for the offences of assault with a weapon and aggravated assault on a peace officer, and it seeks to protect others who work in the criminal justice system, including prosecutors and judges. It extends the duration of recognizance by two years for a person who has previously been convicted of a gang-related or terrorism offence or who is suspected of planning a similar offence.

We in the Liberal Party recognize that the measures in Bill C-14 are modest, but necessary to reassure the public, which is increasingly concerned about public safety in certain communities. Vancouver, recently, and, in the past, Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg and even Halifax, in the Maritimes, where I come from, have had problems with gangsterism and organized crime. This is a real concern for people.

To some degree, the Prime Minister and the minister himself, in their discussions on changes to the Criminal Code are always looking for confrontation. They try to turn the dicussions into partisan matters. They say the government supports these measures but that we in opposition keep trying to block, delay or prevent the passage of them. That is why I am pleased to be able to say the Liberal Party offered to fast-track passage of Bill C-14 and Bill C-15, two bills we will support.

It is often useful to examine a bill from the standpoint of what is not in it.

What specific items might the government have included in Bill C-14 that it did not put in?

We are particularly worried about the three requests the Government of British Columbia made. The Attorney General and the Solicitor General of British Columbia made these requests when they were in Ottawa a couple of weeks ago.

They met with opposition parties and members of the government. They asked Parliament to amend the Criminal Code to reduce the two-for-one remand credit. When somebody is incarcerated before a trial or a conviction because the person has been denied bail or chooses to waive bail and in fact is in a detention centre prior to a trial, often the courts will count the time spent in pre-trial custody as two days for every one day of a sentence, which leads to certain public consternation. When a sentence is ultimately imposed by the judge, the judge often reduces the sentence by a large factor for pre-trial custody.

In the view of the Government of British Columbia and in our view, that can be reduced. We can legislatively restrict the ability of the courts to allow for that two-for-one credit. We are told that in some jurisdictions, it can be as high as three for one, and we think it has become an abuse of the justice system.

The Government of British Columbia also asked for improvements to lawful access and to modernize investigative techniques. Often members of organized crime have the latest communications equipment and the most sophisticated electronic communications. Our laws with respect to search warrants and electronic surveillance have not kept up with this new technology. Improvements can be made to criminal legislation to allow police, when they get a search warrant, to be able to gain access to communications on cellphones, in emails or on wireless communication devices such as BlackBerrys.

My colleague, the Liberal member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, has a private member's bill that seeks to do exactly this. A Liberal bill introduced by the previous Liberal government in 2005 sought to modernize investigative techniques. There again the government chose not to move on that.

The government may decide to introduce legislation to deal with the remand credit, to deal with modernizing investigative techniques, and to look at the issue of disclosure, which has become a huge burden on provincial justice systems. These are the three things we heard the Attorney General of British Columbia cite as being priorities to deal with the crisis there. If the government decides to move on those issues, we would work with it to expeditiously pass reasonable measures to deal with those issues as well.

We were somewhat disappointed by Bill C-14 and have described its measures as modest, because the bill is silent on these improvements.

One of the difficulties we have also with the Conservatives' approach to criminal justice is that they obsessively focus on the back end of the problem. They like to talk about more severe punishment. They like to talk about stiffer sentences.

Those improvements have their place in a criminal justice system, and we acknowledge that if they are balanced and reasonable, we can in fact improve criminal legislation to deal with the worst offenders and the most serious crimes.

However, what they never talk about is the other part of the criminal justice system: prevention.

The Conservatives like to have a policy that punishes the offender once there is already a victim, instead of taking increased steps to work with police, community groups, provincial governments and not-for-profit groups that want to do things in the community to try to reduce and prevent crime before there is a victim. In cases of organized crime, victims often face tragic consequences, including serious violence or loss of life.

If one talks about getting tough on crime, one has to accept that we also need, for example, to work with provincial governments on difficult issues such as mental health and addictions. If there is a great shortage of in-patient addiction facilities in my province of New Brunswick and an inadequate mental health system to deal with criminal justice circumstances, then communities are not as safe as they could be if the Government of Canada worked with the Province of New Brunswick and other provinces to meet their specific needs.

The Province of New Brunswick is looking at setting up a drug court. In certain cases involving drug addicts who have not participated in organized crime or violent offences, such a court may offer a sentencing regime that will deal with the root cause of their criminal activity, their addiction, and thus make the community safer by bringing about treatment and, hopefully, a cure for somebody who faces something as difficult as a serious drug addiction.

These are important elements of a criminal justice plan as well, but the government consistently fails to advocate in favour of greater resources for police or greater resources to help provinces with a shortage of crown prosecutors, or to work with provinces to improve mental health services, addiction services or youth programs, which are often essential in improving the security of a community.

We consider these matters just as important as the legitimate desire of the public to have teeth added not only to the Criminal Code but particularly to the sentences given criminals who commit the most serious crimes.

Instead of introducing a number of measures at once, the minister insists on bringing us his bills one at a time. Is it because the Conservatives have nothing else on their legislative agenda? Is it because they are still trying to make criminal justice announcements to override the bad economic news Canadians now read and hear about almost daily? We do not know, but if the Conservatives insist on turning these matters into partisan debates, they will end up undermining their own idea of passing bills to improve public safety.

I will conclude by saying every member of the House must accept the responsibility to improve the safety of all our communities. I represent a rural community in New Brunswick. The largest town is probably Sackville, New Brunswick, where Mount Allison University is located. It has a population of around 5,000 people. Other members in the House represent some very large metropolitan areas, some of Canada's largest and most dynamic cities, and they are seeing very difficult challenges around organized crime and violent crime.

I say that if we work together cooperatively in a balanced and measured way, we can collectively make improvements to criminal legislation that will make communities safer. At the same time, we can respect the individual rights of Canadians and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We can also do a lot more around preventing crime, as well as around preventing victims from being created and thus having to punish an accused person.

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4:10 p.m.

Saint Boniface Manitoba

Conservative

Shelly Glover ConservativeParliamentary Secretary for Official Languages

Madam Speaker, I want to point out that I also believe there is no greater responsibility for any government than to protect its citizens. The safety and security of citizens is at the forefront of what our government is trying to do.

I would point out that we have addressed many issues that our police services have asked for. As a former police officer, I believe very strongly in the measures that have been brought forward by this government.

I would like to ask the member why, during his party's 13 years in power, his government did not address these very serious things, such as mandatory minimum penalties for gun crimes, the reverse-onus situation and the age of protection. Why did you get none of that done during your 13 years, and now you choose to criticize the fact that we have finally moved things forward?

You also never mentioned victims, and I assure you that I stand here because victims are at the forefront of everything I do in justice. I would remind you that under your government, the Youth Criminal Justice Act was brought forward, an act that completely devastated families and our youth. I ask you why you have done nothing to support measures to change that either.

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4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Madam Speaker, the member in her question kept referring to “your government” and why “you” did nothing. I would not purport to say that you have done nothing about organized crime and you have not been tough on crime. I hope the member did not mean to cast aspersions on you.

When the member pretended, as those members always do, that the previous Liberal government did not do enough, she may not have been in the House when the member for Hochelaga made reference to a very important improvement that the previous Liberal government made with respect to creating organized crime legislation in Canada as response to the tragedy, in many ways, that Quebec was seeing with organized crime about 10 years ago. I think the member for Hochelaga was very pleased that Parliament adopted those measures under a Liberal government.

The member forgets, for example, that a previous Liberal government dealt with the reverse onus on serious gun crimes. A previous Liberal government always took public safety seriously. What we did not do was seek to take public concern and the tragedy of violent crime and turn it into a partisan issue, with empty rhetoric, and pretend somehow that we alone had the virtue in wanting to make communities safer.

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4:10 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

I would ask all members to address their comments through the Chair and in the third person to their colleagues.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Hochelaga.

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4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Madam Speaker, the Lord knows you are a fine example of femininity.

I am not explaining my confusion very well and I am sorry. I find it hard to understand why they want to turn this into a partisan debate when lives are being destroyed in some of our communities and it is important for us to work together and cooperate.

TheMinister of Justice rose a little while ago—you were in the Chair, Madam Speaker—and was disrespectful to me. I do not want to make too much out of it, but implying that some people are less concerned than others about the organized crime problem is very nasty.

I want to ask this of the hon. member for Beauséjour. In times like these, when communities all over Quebec and Canada are badly hurt by the threats looming over them, has the time not come to be cooperative and non-partisan?

Should we not put a stop to the nastiness so characteristic of some members who think certain people are sensitive while others are not?

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4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Madam Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from Hochelaga for his question. I share his sentiments exactly. I have had the privilege of working on the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights with a number of members, including the Bloc Québécois justice critic, the hon. member for Hochelaga. I think we work well together on improving Canadian legislation, especially in regard to the safety of our communities.

The hon. member for Hochelaga is certainly sincerely concerned about public safety, although the Conservative members might not often be as sensitive as he is or as I am, for example, to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If we are going to work together on improving the Criminal Code, we should do so in a collegial way with the interests of our communities uppermost in our minds. The Conservatives always insist on turning these situations into partisan wrangling.

Ultimately, it was probably because the minister referred in his speech to the antiterrorism bill he introduced today, forgetting to mention that it died on the order paper two years ago. Suddenly the Conservatives decided today to re-introduce a bill they have ignored for two years. It is often just a diversion, a way of trying to distract attention.

I think it is because we are going through very difficult times and the government does not have any answers. It is trying to hide its economic ineptitude.

I fully agree with the hon. member for Hochelaga that we should have serious debates on these issues, focusing on improving public safety, and not just partisan wrangling.

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4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Clarke Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Madam Speaker, we are talking about protecting Canadian citizens and the victims. Why did the Liberals bring in the gun registry? We have more police officers dying on the job because the gun registry came into effect.

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4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Madam Speaker, I am a little surprised to hear the member say that more people are dying because the gun registry came into effect. That makes no sense at all.

The Conservatives have always had a hidden agenda to gut control legislation. They try to introduce a number of bills aimed at weakening gun control legislation in Canada. They do not have the courage to bring it in as a government bill and take the responsibility for telling Canadians and victims of crimes that they do not believe in gun control. What they prefer to do is use private members' bills and amnesties to basically gut an instrument that Canadian police officers use thousands of times a day.

The member talked about gun control. There is a private member's bill before the House that deals with gun control legislation. The Canadian Association of Police Chiefs has called on all parties to vote against the Conservative private member's bill, which seeks to weaken the gun registry and gun control.

If, somehow, this has lead to the death of police officers and citizens, it is news to the Canadian Association of Police Chiefs.

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4:15 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Madam Speaker, I would like to commend my colleague for his tone in this debate.

I remind the government members, and the minister in particular, that histrionics do not criminal law better make.

It is important for us to remember that the Conservative Party is doing what it does best. It is rallying around its mantra of trying to frighten Canadians. It is rallying around its mantra of creating the crisis. All of this, and I ask my colleague to respond to it, because it simply cannot deal with the emerging economic crisis which is weighing upon it.

As a result, the Conservatives have to mount their 50,000 square foot fear factory in my riding, their campaign headquarters, and begin to try and turn everybody's attention away from the economic realities of hundreds of thousands of job losses. Rather than deal with the insecurity Canadians feel, they torque up their law and order agenda.

Does my colleague think that is the way we should approach these important issues and how might he present this otherwise?

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4:15 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

The hon. member for Beauséjour has 40 seconds to respond.

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4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Then I suppose, Madam Speaker, that I shall have to be brief.

My colleague, the member for Ottawa South, as usual, has summarized a great sentiment that many of us in the House feel. The Conservative Party seeks to make out of tragedies, public safety and horrible acts of criminal violence a partisan advantage. Instead of the Conservatives asking what we can do together to improve criminal legislation, to toughen up criminal legislation with respect to the worst offenders, at the same investing in prevention and measures that will make communities safer, they seek to camouflage the fact that the economy is in trouble and they have no plan.

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4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Madam Speaker, a little background is in order. Earlier, in a tone of voice neither friendly nor courteous, and certainly not the sort of tone one would expect from a man whose job it is to work toward achieving consensus on these issues, the Minister of Justice suggested that the party I represent, the Bloc Québécois, has not taken a serious enough interest in organized crime issues. I would like to take another look at some of the facts.

I was elected in October 1993. The Prime Minister of the day, Mr. Chrétien, had to go to a NATO meeting, so Parliament was convened in January. In August 1995, a car bomb took the life of young Daniel Desrochers. That was when the impact of motorcycle gang wars on civil society began to receive broad media coverage. I would like to point out that what people in British Columbia, particularly the greater Vancouver region, are going through now, unfortunately, is something we experienced to an even greater extent between 1995 and 1998.

In 1995, I introduced the first anti-gang bill. I well remember my discussions with senior federal officials. At the time, Allan Rock was the Minister of Justice, and some of his officials convinced him that we could put an end to organized crime using conspiracy provisions. I cultivated my police force contacts. A man by the name of Pierre Sangolo taught me a lot about organized crime. He was the Montreal police officer in charge of the file. I was a young member of Parliament then, just 31 years old. I had been elected a little over two years before, and I had never in my life had any need to pay attention to organized crime. I had vague memories of my parents taking an interest in the Commission of Inquiry on Organized Crime (CIOC). I was young, and I knew that organized crime could poison the communities it targeted.

Pierre Sangolo, a Montreal police officer, explained to me that a certain number of conditions have to be in place for organized crime to flourish. For example, organized crime is not necessarily the same here as it in in developing countries. In order for organized crime to exist, there have to be some indicators of wealth and lines of communication. Organized crime operates in the import and export markets. Not only does organized crime make itself at home in wealthy societies with good lines of communication, it also at home in societies with a certain amount of bureaucracy. In the case we are interested in, it is a question of the bureaucracy of the legal system. This bureaucracy has grown up mainly because of the charter and the multiple appeals that are possible when one goes to court.

And so, I introduced the first anti-gang bill. At that time, the Liberals formed the government. It took up a bill that became a government bill, Bill C-95, which created the criminal organization, or gangsterism, offence. That reinforced the idea that there was more to worry about than crimes committed on an individual basis, conspiracy, premeditation and organized criminal attacks. It meant that the ringleaders had to be targeted. Those who give the orders and plan the operations are not the ones who carry them out. In the legal system as it existed then, we had the means to deal with those who carried out the orders, but we did not have many tools to attack those at the top of the organized crime pyramid.

In large part thanks to the inspiration and leadership of the Bloc Québécois, Bill C-95 created a new offence. When five people belong to an organization and any one of those people commits a serious offence, an offence punishable by more than five years of imprisonment and from which the individual stood to gain financially, that was considered a new offence called participation in a criminal organization.

The bill was passed in 1997. From what I remember, all parties supported that bill. The next year, in 1998, the Montreal police service and other police forces told us that the number five made enforcing the law too difficult. What they were seeing was the creation of all kinds of satellite gangs and it was difficult to find five people who had been convicted of offences punishable by more than five years in prison. In Bill C-24, which, if memory serves, was introduced by Anne McLellan, the number was reduced from five to three. It was the Bloc Québécois that worked hard and got results. At the time, Richard Marceau, the hon. member for Charlesbourg, was the Bloc's justice critic. We managed to get the government to remove $1,000 bills from circulation, since we knew that $1,000 bills helped drug traffickers and people involved in organized crime. I am convinced that if I did a quick survey here and asked my fellow members how many have a $1,000 bill in their pocket, I doubt that anyone here, whether MPs, clerks or the Chair, would have a $1,000 bill in their possession, even though we all earn a good living.

It was also the Bloc Québécois that managed to create a new offence allowing for reverse onus of proof regarding the origin of the proceeds of crime acquired by criminal organizations. Of course, we realized that reversing the onus of proof is always a means of last resort in law. Given that the Crown and the defence do not have the same means, the Crown must prove that an offence was committed. However, we felt that the problem was serious enough that, once a guilty verdict was pronounced, there should be a reverse onus of proof regarding the proceeds of crime.

The Bloc Québécois led the way in having these measures adopted. That is why I take exception to the fact that the Minister of Justice, who too often is narrow-minded in his interventions, implied that we were negligent, that we were not steadfast, that we were not concerned about the issue of organized crime. The police services I have worked with for a number of years—as did my predecessor, the member for Charlesbourg, and Michel Bellehumeur before him, who was once the Bloc justice critic—can confirm that we have always been very concerned about organized crime.

I say to the government that we will support this bill. We are in favour of its objective. I met with the Attorney General of British Columbia. He explained the situation in his province. He proposed three measures. We truly hope that two will be implemented. The first concerns deducting from the sentence double the amount of time served in detention prior to trial. I will come back to this. The second concerns the issue of accelerated release. This is a longstanding demand.

The third measure on which we need a bit more reflection and information is the whole notion of the Crown's ability to restrict the disclosure of evidence, which would of course be contrary to certain Supreme Court judgments, Stinchcombe in particular. We must therefore ensure, when it comes to the disclosure of evidence during the preliminary inquiry and the trial, that this is not in contravention of the rules of fairness that must exist when a trial is involved, particularly a criminal trial where it may be a matter of imprisonment and life imprisonment.

We are going to support this bill. Can I tell the Minister of Justice and the government that we will not be presenting any amendments? Certainly not. The purpose of referring a bill to a committee is to hear witnesses. We want to work with diligence. We are aware that there is a worrisome situation in British Columbia, but we are not going to rush things. We are going to work seriously but we are not going to make a commitment to present no amendments.

For example, the matter of mandatory minimum sentences is an obvious problem for us. Each time a provision of the Criminal Code contains a mandatory minimum sentence, we are sending the message that we do not trust the judiciary. Each case before the courts is individual, and justice needs to be individualized as well. We are not comfortable with anyone wanting to tie the hands of the judiciary. It is possible that the Bloc Québécois will bring in some amendments concerning mandatory minimum sentences. We have always maintained the same position. We are consistent on this.

I am also well aware that organized crime is an extremely changeable reality, a highly dynamic phenomenon. When I first began to take an interest in organized crime in 1995, at the age of 31, there was very little reference to street gangs. It was motorcycle gangs, the Hells Angels, the Rockers. There were gang wars in various communities. In recent years, another phenomenon has emerged: street gangs.

What characterizes street gangs? As far as intelligence gathering is concerned, this different phenomenon presents some difficulties. First of all, they are groups that are far harder to do surveillance on, far less organized, far less structured. I do not know whether anyone here has had the opportunity to look at an organization chart of the Hells Angels, with their sergeants at arms and their presidents. It is a highly structured organization with implacable rules and regulations. We are well aware that any Hells Angel who does not stick to the rules is liable to be killed. Not that I am sorry about that in any way, but what I am saying is that, when street gangs are involved, they are less organized groups, and so harder to wiretap, harder to do surveillance on, and less predictable in their criminal behaviour.

I was told that when it comes to street gangs, we are seeing a bit of a second generation. People in street gangs tend to be a little older. These people are not, on average, 14, 15 or 16. They tend to be a little older than that. Street gangs are not necessarily based on ethnic origin alone anymore. We know that there have been some alliances with organized crime groups and that there are now Caucasians—white people—who are in important positions in the hierarchy of street gangs. Those are some of the realities that we must try to understand more at committee.

The main new feature in this bill is the following. We are told that when a murder—a homicide—is committed for the benefit of or at the direction of a criminal organization, as set out in section 467.11, 12 and 13 of the Criminal Code, it will automatically be deemed a first degree murder.

Murder in the first degree means that it was premeditated. My colleague from Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, as a former justice minister, was quite right to remind me that the difference between a first degree murder and a second degree murder is the deliberate nature, the use of violence and the use of a weapon in the case of first degree murder.

I do not oppose the creation of this offence in the Criminal Code. I simply want to understand. It is my impression that, already at this time, if someone commits a homicide for the benefit of a criminal organization, that individual can be sentenced to life in prison with no parole eligibility for 25 years.

How will the creation of the new offence change anything? I am not saying it is irrelevant, but I want to understand.

I thought that the reason was that, when members of organized crime are brought before the courts, they might plead guilty to manslaughter. That must be the reason, I told myself.

Just now, when I put this question to the minister with my habitual courtesy, the minister got a bit annoyed. Not only did he get annoyed, but he raised his voice. Not only did he raise his voice, but he did not want to answer. Not only did he not want to answer, but he accused me of being an ideologue. Paradoxical, that. The Conservatives calling me an ideologue. What kind of a crazy world are we living in?

I was trying to get the Minister of Justice to explain this new offence to me, one which may be pertinent, well-founded, rational, but he did not answer the question. That will not stop us from supporting the bill in principle, but I believe it may not be a provision that is as original as the minister would have us believe.

This bill disappoints us in some ways as well. For example, we would have liked to hear about pre-trial detention. It is true that there was a time in the justice system—the older ones here will remember it—when people awaiting sentencing were kept in difficult conditions in penitentiaries. That we acknowledge, but has there not been a significant change in this area? Do we still need to say that, for every day of detention before trial, there will be two days deducted from sentences?

The Bloc Québécois wonders whether this practice ought not to be reviewed. We were concerned about this getting rushed through. How is it that a person who has had a fair trial can be released after a sixth of his sentence? Is there not something about this that should worry us as far as the peace we desire for our communities is concerned ?

I repeat, we are anxious to look at this bill in the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. We are not going to take a partisan approach. We have a full picture of what is going on in communities, in Vancouver and other parts of British Columbia. Moreover, there is no community anywhere that is sheltered from violent confrontations between criminal groups. I am not guaranteeing that we are not going to make amendments, but we do support the bill in principle.

I hope that all members of this House are not going to start impugning motives, and that they will all agree that we are all concerned by the safety of our fellow citizens and that we are going to bring to our work in committee a high-minded approach and broadness of outlook, as all serious parliamentarians must.

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4:35 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

Before we proceed to questions and comments, it is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the member for Malpeque, Agriculture.

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4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Madam Speaker, I listened very intently to the comments of the member opposite. I am happy to hear that at least in principle his party is prepared to support Bill C-14.

I listened to his comments regarding mandatory minimum sentences and they disturbed me slightly. We have heard compelling testimony at the justice committee and elsewhere. The hon. member is a member of that committee and makes very constructive contributions to that committee and I commend him for that.

We have heard very compelling testimony from families of victims whose loved ones have been murdered by individuals with multiple Criminal Code convictions and while they were either on bail or on judicial interim release.

In light of that type of compelling testimony from the family members of deceased victims of crime, I am curious why he does not support the imposition of minimum mandatory sentences.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, we most certainly feel for the victims. Naturally, I was touched. This morning I was rereading the testimony of Mr. Steve Brown and the mother of young Mohan, who was cruelly murdered on his way to a basketball practice. Of course we are touched by such cases. If I were asked whether we would be safe from this phenomenon because of mandatory minimum sentences, my answer would be no.

A judge who does his job well, and we have confidence in our judiciary, will hand down a sentence suited the offence. He will implement the provisions of the Criminal Code that are most pertinent to the offence he must examine. If the Crown is not satisfied with the decision and the sentence, there is the appeal process.

The member was not in the room when we heard from experts who have studied mandatory minimum sentences. None of them said that it is an effective measure. It is not effective because it suggests that a member of a criminal organization will be conversant with the Criminal Code and will plan a crime differently because it will result in a sentence of five rather than four years. The criminal world does not work like that.

Arrests are a much greater deterrent. That is why we agreed. The member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin spoke about this in the House. We would like to see more police in communities and more money for police investigations. However, mandatory minimum sentences are not the answer to the problem raised by my colleague.