House of Commons Hansard #37 of the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was cuts.

Topics

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Madam Speaker, the member wants to talk about quotes. I quoted from the 1993 Liberal red book. It was shameful what the Liberals did in 1993 and then again what they did in 1997.

In terms of the Reform Party, there is no party of that name anymore. There is the new Conservative Party of Canada, the Government of Canada, Canada's party. That is who is in the House. That is who governs this country.

But let us look at what the Liberal Party said. It called for “stable, multi-year funding”, and then it made cuts. The president quit his job, with 4,000 people thrown out of work because the Liberals took the money from the CBC and put it in their own pockets with the sponsorship scandal. That is their record.

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Madam Speaker, I find the speech delivered by the member for Peterborough, the parliamentary secretary, rather surprising, not least because this is the first time he has chosen to address the House in French. This is the first time I have heard him do so, in any case. I would like to congratulate him and encourage him to keep it up.

I am also surprised by the content of his remarks and his tendency to criticize opposition parties even though the government is the party in power, the party with both hands on the wheel, as the expression goes. If the government wanted to, it could help CBC/Radio-Canada. This budget provides an increase of 1.5%, which is not even enough to cover pay increases. Taking into account cuts to the Canada media fund—formerly the Canadian television fund—there is no actual budget increase. Worst of all, the government is simply not interested in helping CBC/Radio-Canada. That comes through loud and clear in its remarks.

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Madam Speaker, of course, there have been annual year-after-year increases to the CBC under our government. We stood behind the CBC. We have provided it with support and have given it the arm's-length relationship it needed to run its business effectively. We have not tampered with the CBC in any way. We believe in its individuality as a network. We are providing record support to the CBC.

The member referenced the new media fund, a great announcement that the minister made just a few short weeks ago. It was celebrated by CBC President Hubert Lacroix at the time as a magnificent step for content in Canada in support of Canadian artists. It is another great announcement made by this government.

However, I would say to the member with respect to the CBC, the member well knows that the difficulties the CBC is encountering is not because of government funding. The government funding is in fact at record levels. Advertising revenues have declined, as they have for all broadcasters, and that is why the broadcaster is experiencing difficulties.

We have given the CBC an increase at a time when many Canadian families have experienced a decrease. Canadians expect the CBC to take the money that it has been given, that increase in funding, and deliver the services that Canadians have come to expect.

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, I do not disagree with the member for Peterborough at all when he talks about the unmitigated gall of Liberals to introduce this motion after they, in the mid-1990s, cut 4,000 jobs from the CBC and in fact did cut things like the suppertime news hour in centres like Winnipeg, something that we are still missing today.

However, if we are going to go back in history, let us go back to the Conservatives in the election of 2004, when John Reynolds said that CBC Television would be completely cut loose to compete and would have to depend entirely on its own advertising revenue; or Stephen Rogers, the Conservative candidate in Vancouver Quadra, who allegedly called the CBC the “communist broadcasting corporation”.

Does the member and his colleagues in the Conservative Party care about the CBC at all? Does he believe in the need for a public broadcaster? Why not embark on bridge financing, which is a cost-effective way to ensure that this national institution, so important to Canadians, is able to survive?

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Madam Speaker, the member of the NDP is one that I have a great deal of respect for. We do not agree on everything. In fact, we probably disagree on a lot of things, but I have a lot of respect for this member.

I would say to the member that of course I support the CBC. Of course, I support the role of the public broadcaster.

I grew up in Peterborough. We have an affiliate of the CBC, CHEX-TV, which has always been a major contributor to our local community. It always carried local news and local content, and all the CBC programming that has meant so much to me.

In fact, if I go back to my childhood, I think I was watching Hockey Night in Canada before I could talk or walk, and that was all carried on CHEX-TV, a great affiliate of the CBC. This is a network that we intend to see succeed, and continue to survive and thrive into the future.

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Cambridge Ontario

Conservative

Gary Goodyear ConservativeMinister of State (Science and Technology)

Madam Speaker, I find this a very interesting conversation. I can say that CKCO-TV in the Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge region is having some difficulties as a result of the times. DAVE-FM, a radio station in my riding of Cambridge, is having difficulties.

What I am hearing this morning is probably the epitome of hypocrisy from across the floor. The Bloc just voted against funding for Radio-Canada. The NDP voted against this recent budget that increased. We just heard the litany of broken promises by the Liberals who gutted the CBC. They say they will not and then they do. That is typical pre-election promises.

However, the key question for the member, who just gave a great lucid speech that was well researched, deals with the fact that the management at CBC has stated that bridge funding will not help it.

Why is it that the Liberals have chosen to use this as a way to again say things that they have no intention of doing? Did the management at CBC say that this bridge funding would or would not help?

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Madam Speaker, a number of executives of the CBC's board specifically indicated that this bridge financing would not have helped the CBC. Let me clear, it would not have prevented the layoff of 800 employees at CBC. It would have had to make those changes anyway.

The board of the CBC worked within its budget and it came up with a plan on how it was going to bridge itself through it. That is responsible. It is the right thing to do.

Canadian taxpayers ultimately are the ones who are providing the bulk of the support to the CBC. They want it to provide the broadcasting and the content that they have come to expect. They want the CBC to do it in a manner that is financially and fiscally responsible.

Believe me, we are very saddened by the job losses at CBC, but a bridge loan would not have changed that.

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Madam Speaker, I have two questions. Why is there such fear of the CBC, our national public broadcaster, when it celebrates Canadian culture, our two official languages, and reflects Canadian regions? Why is there such resistance to fund arts, history, journalism and science, which is internationally acclaimed on the CBC?

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

The member has either been sleeping since 2006 or is deeply confused, Madam Speaker.

We have increased funding to everything that she just mentioned, absolutely everything. I can back that up with documentation. There is not a single thing that the member just mentioned that we have not increased the funding to, whether it is the CBC, health care, post-secondary education, the arts, Canadian culture, everything. There is nothing the member can point to that we have not increased support.

We just heard from the Minister of State for Science and Technology. Has the member heard how much money the Minister of State for Science and Technology is investing on behalf of this government into scientific research in this country? The member needs to pay a little more attention to what she is voting in favour of when she supports this government's budgets.

This government's budgets have in fact increased funding to all of the areas that she just mentioned.

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order, pursuant to Standing Order 18 it states briefly that no member shall speak disrespectfully of the Sovereign, the Royal Family, the Governor General and so on, or use offensive words against either House or against any member thereof.

To impute that some member is sleeping or not paying attention or not doing their job and so on, is--

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

An hon. member

Oh, oh!

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

If the member wants to heckle, that is fine, but we have to pay attention to Standing Order 18 and to reflect on another member's work when he or she has worked so hard on matters like this, I believe is inappropriate under the Standing Orders.

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

I would agree that the comment was not very nice, but I do not think it meets the standards of unparliamentary language.

Resuming debate.

The hon. member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert has the floor.

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Madam Speaker, at the outset, I would like to say that I am fed up with the Conservative government saying that the Bloc Québécois has always voted against it. That is simply not true. On May 10, 2006, and March 27, 2007, the Bloc Québécois voted in favour of the Conservative government's budgets. I would therefore ask my Conservative colleagues to stop singing the same old tune and to check their facts. Every time they get the facts wrong and base their decisions on that kind of fundamental information, we have reason to doubt everything else they have to say and all of the facts they bring up in the House.

This past weekend, I heard someone say that CBC/Radio-Canada is the GM of the news world. Initially, I thought that that was an interesting analogy, but upon reflection, I realized that it did not apply with the Conservative government. If CBC/Radio-Canada were the GM of the news world, the government would have helped it long ago. I heard the parliamentary secretary say that the corporation was having problems with advertising revenue. Maybe, but GM had problems with car sales revenue. The government is ready to help GM and Chrysler, but not CBC/Radio-Canada. That is the message we are getting from the parliamentary secretary and the Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages. This government does not want to help CBC/Radio-Canada for ideological reasons.

The corporation’s problems did not begin yesterday, but long ago. In 2007, the opposition parties reacted and called upon the government to take the necessary action. Contrary to what the hon. member for Peterborough says, the opposition parties, and in particular the Bloc Québécois, demanded that the government take action. The Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage did a study which began on March 1, 2007 and continued for a year, until February 2008. Hundreds of people testified, 45 meetings were held, and 710 letters and emails were received from Quebeckers and from Canadians all over the country. That report details all the problems of CBC/Radio-Canada, those from last year and those of today, that have resulted in the crown corporation's present difficulties. I will quickly recount the solutions that were proposed. I reread this report recently. Not only are the same problems recurring, but the solutions proposed are those that everyone is now considering for CBC/Radio-Canada.

First of all, we need multi-year funding that is stable, indexed and planned over seven years, with certain conditions and a memorandum of understanding. An envelope of $60 million has been suggested. I will turn in a moment to the famous discretionary envelope of the minister which he will allocate as the mood strikes him. We need a budget of $40 per capita. Mention was made just now of the studies being done elsewhere in the world which show that $40 per capita is not too much. We also need less dependence on advertising. The hon. member for Peterborough spoke of the loss of advertising revenue. The corporation should not have trouble producing its programming because it is having trouble finding advertising. One situation does not necessarily flow from the other.

In last year’s report, the Bloc specified that the French network should receive all the attention and all the solutions it deserves. There are two broadcasters, one anglophone and one francophone, and they are faced with different problems requiring different solutions. We should also have a public television system that reflects Quebec’s values. Radio-Canada should in particular reflect the values of the Quebec nation: this is something that has been recognized by everyone here.

The Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage thus took a cold hard look at the problems of the crown corporation which is today in hot water. The committee members sat down and came up with some solutions in a calm atmosphere, an atmosphere not subject to the stresses of today created by an extremely difficult situation of at least 800 looming layoffs. The document is over 200 pages long. It is indeed a very serious piece of work. Involved in it were my colleagues Maka Kotto, who is now making a contribution in the National Assembly of Quebec, the hon. member for Ahuntsic, who will be speaking to you this afternoon, and the hon. member for Verchères—Les Patriotes, who also took part in last year’s study. This member so appreciates the world of culture that he has put forward a motion in this House calling on this government to restore funding for the arts and culture programs that were cut last summer for ideological reasons.

As I mentioned earlier, there are two distinct broadcasters: Radio-Canada on the French side, and CBC on the English side. Their problems are different, which means that the solutions must be different. It is a mistake to put everything together, to try to create a single entity, and then to try to fix the problems and find solutions. That does not work, and that is one of the problems right now.

As I mentioned, unfortunately, CBC Television remains in a constant state of crisis. I am not the one who makes that claim. One of the numerous reports of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage says:

90 per cent of all the drama that Canadians watch on English-language television is foreign, mostly American.

This is from the report entitled “Making A Place for All Canadians”. And it is true that CBC, because of the English language and the proximity of the United States, has problems that the SRC does not have. That is not difficult to understand, but that is a fact. Canada is being invaded by American television.

When a Canadian decides to watch television in the evening, he chooses the network that is most likely to provide big budget programming, which often means, although not always, better quality. Therefore, he is tempted to choose American drama. Not only is he tempted, but he actually chooses them, as confirmed by audience ratings. The ratings for the CBC are, in some respects, poor or, rather, low. I will not go any further in my choice of words.

Radio-Canada does not have the same kind of problems. Let me give an example to prove my point. Earlier, I mentioned that last year the committee had tried to bunch together the problems of the French and English networks, and that it did not work. I happen to have with me a quote from the committee's report. It says: “For years now, Canadians have been witnessing the decline of CBC/Radio-Canada programming, particularly in the regions.”

That is undoubtedly an issue for CBC, but not for Radio-Canada, because the French network is doing very well.

Last week, the TV series Les Invincibles had a rating of close to 1 million viewers. That is quite a feat for a serial drama presented on a weeknight. It is about young and modern couples living in this day and age. It is really very interesting, it is well done, and Quebeckers can relate to that TV series. So, Radio-Canada does not have the rating problems that the CBC is experiencing.

This profound and significant difference, this reality of dissimilar challenges facing two quite separate networks, does not come through clearly in the Committee’s recommendations. Faced with CBC Television’s ongoing failure to attract a large audience, the committee seems to have thrown up its hands, while congratulating itself on the success of the French network.

By dividing its study on the role of a public broadcaster in the 21st century into two reports, one on the French network and one on the English network, the committee could have dealt in greater depth with the different problems confronting each of them. The truth is that CBC/Radio-Canada’s French-language network is intended essentially for Quebeckers, and tells Quebec stories made by Quebeckers. Quebeckers' feeling of belonging to the Quebec nation explains why they are so attached to their own television, whether private or public, and the audience ratings bear that out.

As I said earlier, the CBC has audience rating problems mainly because of competition from American networks. The French network still does have problems of its own, but is not affected by American competition, as audience ratings for Les Invincibles demonstrated again last week.

The problem facing Radio-Canada has more to do with fierce competition from private enterprise, which is practising convergence and fighting for the same advertising revenue. Issues such as funding for high-cost drama series, residuals, in-house production, funding for public affairs programs, respect for the mandate of Radio Canada International and the SRC's regional development would have received a great deal more attention if there had been a separate study.

It is obvious that even when it comes to broadcasting Quebec is a different nation and that the parliamentarians in the three other parties would have been better advised to face facts, which would have enabled the committee to do a better job. They preferred to deny the Quebec nation rather than appropriately support a multinational public broadcaster.

The Bloc took part in formulating the committee's recommendations and supported them. It is reiterating its belief in a real, national, strong and well funded public television network. First, it believes in stable, indexed, multi-year funding over seven years. That is recommendation 4.1 on page 129. Clearly, the opposition has done its homework. I must say that, last year, when the committee report was tabled in the House, the ball was in the Conservative's court government to accept the recommendations and to implement them. Had the Conservative government really wanted to do something for the CBC and resolve the problems we are now hearing about that are occurring today, it would have acted, as the Minister of Canadian Heritage reacted when he heard that CTV was having problems. He bounced up and said that, indeed, the government was going to help out. We are not hearing that from the Conservative government. We are not hearing that it is going to help the CBC. We are hearing that it depends on this and that, that it is not their fault, that it is the fault of the Liberals or the NDP and that the Bloc voted against it. This government is doing nothing, and yet it was said last year in this House and also written that CBC/Radio Canada needed stable funding over seven years. It needed $40 per capita, and that is really not a lot. Some countries in the world provide $80 per capita. In the 18 countries in the industrialized world, we are at the tail end, just ahead of the United States, which has no need for the reasons we know, including the size of its population. We need $40 per person.

When this Conservative government tells us in the House that it has never given so much for the CBC, I take a look at the budget documents. There I see that, in 2005-06, under a Liberal government, the budget was $1.97 billion. I am not making this up; it is in the government's budget. This year, what is the government budgeting? According to the main estimates, the figure is $1.52 billion. That is $62 million less. “Wait“, they will say, there is a $60 million envelope. Yes, but this envelope is not a sure thing. This is the way it is year after year. The government finally announced this additional envelope a few days ago. The minister let himself be persuaded and granted it. However, it still depends on the mood of the minister. He has given it year after year. There has been no year it was not given, but why is it not part of the budget? Why is the minister obliged to hold out this carrot? He has said that, if the CBC is nice, he will make the money available immediately, if it is naughty, he will hand it out later. That is not the way it works. It makes no sense. That is not how a Crown corporation is managed if it is to be strong and healthy.

Basically, the total after the $60 million promised this week will be $1.1 billion. As I said earlier, compared to the Liberals' $1.97 billion, it seems to me that $3 million does not make much of a difference; it does not even match the 1.5% wage increase this government is giving its employees. At CBC/Radio-Canada, the wage increase might be 2%, when they are already in the hole.

Advertising revenues are lower, but that is not the whole problem. This Conservative government is not respecting the economy and the constant dollar principle. Indeed, in constant dollars, there is a $300 million shortfall in CBC/Radio-Canada's budget as compared to 20 years ago. The Conservatives are talking nonsense. The fact is that, as we have see earlier, the information they are providing is not right, and neither is this. When the Conservatives say that the government gave CBC/Radio-Canada the most, that is not true.

Regarding the $40 per capita, if this government and its Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages are serious, the minister should stand in this House and say that, from now on, $40 per capita will be provided. I must say that the Conservatives did not indicate in a supplementary report that they disagreed with this $40 per capita amount. All they said was that they wanted to see what the corporation would do with that money.

Perhaps by looking at the business plan prepared by Hubert Lacroix, the CEO of CBC/Radio-Canada, the Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages would realize that there is a shortfall of $171 million to deal with even after selling $125 million in assets. Perhaps then he would have a better idea of what to do. Even by posting a $171 million deficit and selling $125 million in assets, he still has to lay off 800 employees, which is not right. If the minister really wants to know what our public broadcaster would do with $40 per capita, he need only read through the corporation's list of expenditures and it will become clear.

If this government is serious, if it truly wants to help CBC/Radio-Canada, there is a solution: $40 per capita. Three words. It is not complicated, it just has to do it. Then we will finally believe that this Conservative government really does want to do something for our public broadcaster. To date, it has done nothing. It has done absolutely nothing

In short, as I mentioned earlier, it is very important to add the additional $60 million. This cat and mouse game is ridiculous: I am in a good mood, I will give you the money right away; I am in a bad mood, I will give it to you later. That makes no sense.

We must decrease the corporation's dependency on advertising revenues. Almost all the emails and messages received by the committee last year recommended that all advertising be eliminated from CBC/Radio-Canada television, as it was from radio. However, not everyone agrees on that point. Some find that advertising is a good link to the community, especially in the regions. But the corporation's reliance on advertising must be reduced. The loss of advertising revenue is not a good thing right now for television as a whole. But it is true that decisions are made in times of crisis. Perhaps this decision could be made quickly.

In closing, the Bloc Québécois will continue to support the corporation and work to defend it from a government that is insensitive to the arts, culture and cultural development. That is why the Bloc is so passionate about the transfer of all responsibility for the arts, culture and broadcasting, and naturally their corresponding funding, as quickly as possible to the Quebec government, which is truly interested in and attuned to cultural and telecommunications activities. It is our hope that this would be just one element of the transition to a sovereign Quebec.

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Madam Speaker, I liked what the member had to say about defining the unique role of CBC Radio-Canada across the country and, specifically, in Quebec. The member also knows that many francophones across the rest of Canada also enjoy Radio-Canada and want to see it protected.

My question relates to the unique mandate of CBC Radio-Canada. It does not have the same latitude in programming as other private broadcasters, which thrive on the programming from the United States. It is not only competing with U.S. channels and stations, but also with Canadian broadcasters that are spending big dollars to have U.S. programming, therefore giving them a chance to raise more money.

Does the member believe it is necessary to protect the unique position of CBC Radio-Canada? If the protection is not there, if the programming is not protected and if we start losing programming, it may be unable to come back when times get better. That is my concern.

Has the committee commented on the risk of losing programming services, which may, once taken off the air, never come back?

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Madam Speaker, often but not always the quality of television programming admittedly requires a big budget. The more money there is to make a program, the more chance there is of a quality program. That is not necessarily always the rule, however. There have been excellent low-budget programs and there have been big-budget programs that have really bombed. I will not name any names. But most of the time—and this is the case elsewhere as well, in the U.S. and other countries—you can manage to accomplish something with a big budget. That is why I am coming back to the $40 per capita figure.

That strikes me as the solution. At the moment, all of us together in this Parliament can manage to do something with, and for, the corporation by giving it the necessary budget. And $40 will not be a lot, when we have seen figures in the Nordicity report of $80 per capita for some countries that do not have to help two broadcasters.

In the situation we have here, CBC is one broadcaster and Radio-Canada is another. With $40 per capita, we would be helping out two broadcasters.

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:25 a.m.

Edmonton Centre Alberta

Conservative

Laurie Hawn ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for her speech.

I would like to explore the $40 per capita for a minute. Forty dollars per capita for 33 million Canadians amounts to $1.32 billion. We give a direct subsidy to the CBC of $1.1 billion. If people watch the CBC, as I do, they will realize there is an awful lot of government advertising. I would suspect that the Government of Canada is the largest single advertiser on the CBC, and I do not know what the dollar figure is. However, at one point, $1 billion amounts to $33 per capita for every man, woman and child in Canada and another $230 million or so of advertising would bring that up to the $40 per capita about which she talked.

What is her appreciation of those numbers and does she have any idea, because I do not? How much advertising does the Government of Canada give to the CBC and how much more does that increase its cash flow?

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Madam Speaker, I did not get the last part of the question very well, but I did get the first part fine, the $40 per capita. Obviously, the $40 is a figure from last year. Perhaps this year it might be revised. I have heard of a revised per capita figure of $44.

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:25 a.m.

An hon. member

Oh, oh!

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Yes, but with the $60 million , that makes $1.3 billion.

We need to be able to sense a real desire by this Conservative government to help CBC/Radio-Canada. So far, however, what we have seen and heard is not helping us believe it is prepared to help it out. When the disappearance of Radio-Canada was spoken of in the House, the Conservatives applauded. It cost the Prime Minister such an effort to be interviewed by Radio-Canada, after granting numerous interviews to the private networks first.

We need to be able to feel that this government wants to help the corporation. To date, we have yet to hear any such statement or commitment from any Conservative member.

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Madam Speaker, I thank my dear colleague from the Bloc. This is interesting. I have represented a very small community in northwestern British Columbia. The CBC/Radio-Canada has played a very important role there in bringing the community together and encouraging dialogue in the nation, not just the region.

With respect to the way both the Liberals and Conservatives have handled the CBC over time, the possibility of privatization, while never talked about directly, is implicated by the way the budgets are handled. In the mid-1990s, when the Liberals drastically cut the budget, the head of the CBC and friends of the CBC talk about the need for greater use of commercials and American broadcasting. The revenues became the only criteria by which to judge the national broadcaster, and that conversation continues. Over time the trajectory is towards this inevitable conclusion, as proposed by the Conservatives and Liberals, to privatize the network.

For the smaller regions in our country, the possibility of having that national conversation under the guise of exclusively a private broadcaster is no longer possible. One thing that unifies such a large and broad country as ours is the role of public broadcasting, with “public” being emphasized. We collect our taxes together and put them towards a national broadcaster, a public broadcaster, to fulfill this role of connecting the regions and playing into this national dialogue, this national story that is Canada.

It is so important for small villages and communities such as ours that there be cooperation with this in mind. I wonder if she could comment on this.

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Madam Speaker, indeed, we know that public television is extremely important in small communities all across Quebec, and also Canada. For the francophone communities outside Quebec it is also extremely important. Too often it is the only connection they have to the French-speaking world.

For all these reasons, I return to my $40 per capita, and I invite the Conservative member who made a comment to me just now to redo his calculations. For the CBC needs help in any way possible.

I understand that it may be difficult for certain governments to assist the CBC. I know it is not easy to love the CBC. When people are in power, sitting on the other side of the House, be they Conservative or Liberal, it is not easy to love the CBC. It produces newscasts, it is objective, and it says things that the party in power and the opposition parties do not like to hear. It is tempting for a government to say it is going to shut down unfavourable criticism, or try to reduce it as much as possible. Such things should not be done in a democracy. We absolutely must help the CBC be a strong public broadcaster that is capable of complete objectivity, both in its regular programming and in its news and public affairs programs.

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Madam Speaker, I am very proud to rise in the House representing the people in my region of Timmins—James Bay.

I am speaking with a heavy heart about what is being discussed today. I was afraid there would come a point when we would have to discuss this issue because we would come to a point where a government attack on the CBC would lead us to a situation where the future of the broadcaster would be a topic in the House.

In an attempt to forestall this day coming, I was on the heritage committee last year and it initiated a study of the CBC so that all members of Parliament would fully understand the role and importance of the CBC, and we could get all parties to buy-in to a vision of a reformed broadcaster. At that time, the NDP worked closely with its allies, the Bloc, Liberals and Conservatives, to bring forward a plan. Unfortunately, the plan that had been laid out by the heritage committee to address the many problems being faced with an underfunded CBC was ignored by the minister. The ensuing crisis is part of the problem now.

The loss of jobs that the CBC is facing comes at a time of unprecedented crisis in Canada's local and regional broadcasting markets. Private broadcasters' local television stations are being closed across the country. Once proud, independent television stations that grew into larger conglomerates are now being thrown aside as somehow having become a junk product, when for decades they built audience share and a local voice.

No better example could be given than CHCH-TV in Hamilton, which provided such a unique role. It was brought up in the Canwest chain and is now being discarded. That is an example of the kind of broadcast crisis we are facing. It is not just in terms of radio and television. It is in terms of newspapers. Many great local papers, some of which have been around for more than a century, are being bought by massive chains.

Every time we see more media concentration, the result is always clear, they cut more staff at the local level and get rid of local voices, to the point where many of the local newspapers across this country, that have served communities for decades or even a century, do not even have local editorials any more. Whoever is in the meagre stable of whatever media oligarchy is running that section of the country will present a national editorial. What happens each time is that local people feel their stories are disappearing. It happens bit by bit. Now we are in a full-fledged broadcasting crisis.

Let us talk about the CBC. The importance of the CBC in the Canadian broadcasting context is that it is a conversation. It is a conversation between Canadians. At its best, that is what public broadcasting is supposed to be and it is a job that private broadcasters cannot do. It is not to say that private broadcasters do not have their niche in their markets and serve their roles well, but the notion of a national conversation is only possible within the context of a public broadcaster.

I will give an example. When I was much younger, I was involved in media. I ran my own independent media magazine and online service as a regional voice for the north. I worked as a broadcaster for Studio 2, a provincial service. I did some work with the CBC and went to the CBC through my work in the arts.

When I was much younger, my band recorded the first Grievous Angels cassette. Even before we had a record we had a cassette, and we had the idea that if we got the cassette to Stuart McLean, he would play it on the radio and he did. Our first national public broadcast was by someone running up to Stuart McLean on the street and saying, “Here is a cassette, Mr. McLean. Would you play this on a national radio show?” The next thing I knew the band was being interviewed by Peter Gzowski on Morningside. That day the group went from being a very small local band to a band that was being asked to play across the country.

I am saying this not to brag, but to say there is no other broadcaster in the country where it would be possible for a song of a band that is completely unknown to be played once on radio, and then to be invited to Vancouver, Winnipeg, Edmonton, right across the country, because people heard it and identified with it.

That has been the role of the CBC right across this country in terms of creating voices for new artists, new writers, new thinkers. When they are interviewed, whether it was by Gzowski in the old days or even today on Jian Ghomeshi's Q, or any of the other programs, people hear that and they feel they are part of this conversation. When the cuts that we are talking about today happen, they happen in a way that affects the ability of regions to speak to one another.

Nowhere do I see this more so than the cuts we are going to face in northern Ontario at CBC Sudbury and CBC Thunder Bay. In this market, CBC Sudbury represents a region that is about the size of western Europe. To cut 8 out of 16 jobs at CBC Sudbury means that the ability of this station to represent to Canada, in the multitude of communities that are as far flung as the shores of Hudson's Bay and James Bay, right across isolated communities in the north, has been terminated. It is no longer possible for that station to do that job.

The cuts will mean that we will have a morning show or an afternoon show. We will not have both. Let us say we lose the afternoon show out of CBC Sudbury. What does that mean in the grand scheme of things? It may mean nothing to people in other regions, but without an afternoon show, we now lose the one show that promoted local writers, regional artists, regional voices. Great performers like Kate Maki, who built a national name, do not get their start because they are not going to be heard on the local afternoon show. The local role of CBC Sudbury has been to cover an entire region.

The other role that CBC Sudbury plays, which is absolutely invaluable in our region, is that we have a francophone service representing the very large francophone population of the northeast, and we have English radio. It is the one format where the francophone and English populations actually speak to each other.

We have programming on CBC North where the hosts of the various shows speak to each other, so that the English milieu is hearing and understanding what the issues are in the francophone community. When we cut those wires, that conversation ceases. It has a profound impact and it draws us back to this fundamental question. What role does a public broadcaster play?

If we are going to cut regional services like this, we are essentially saying that we are turning out the lights in parts of our country. Nowhere else could I think of the effects than in my isolated communities on the James Bay coast. Those communities are served by Wawatay Cree Radio, where the communities speak to each other, but their only ability to speak to a much broader context is through CBC.

When St. Anne's Residential School in Fort Albany burned to the ground, it was a story that everyone in our region shared because CBC was there. When two young men burned to death in a jailhouse fire in Kashechewan, CBC brought that story to the nation, but now, two years later when we are actually having the hearings on what happened to those two men who burned to death in that makeshift jail cell, we will not have the budget to have CBC Sudbury cover that.

In fact, one flight now to Kashechewan, if CBC were to do its job, would probably wipe out CBC's budget for the year in Sudbury because there is no money to do these services.

By making these cuts, it has to be really understood that the lights are going out in certain parts of our country. The ability of certain parts of our regions to speak to one another is being turned off.

I was at an event in the little community of Kennebec, Ontario, on highway 65 west. An elderly woman came up to me and said, “If these cuts go ahead at CBC Sudbury, how will we speak to each other?” In that part of northern Ontario, the one unifying voice is the CBC link, so the cuts that are happening are profound and cannot be underestimated.

Let us talk about how we got here. CBC is the most underfunded public broadcaster in the world. When we look at the motion of my colleague from the Liberals, we will certainly be supporting the motion, but we need to address the elephant in the room, that bridge financing alone would not have gotten us out of this problem.

Bridge financing and a government that was willing to work would have helped address the immediate problems in the crisis. However, it would not have addressed the overall systemic problem we are facing, and that is years of underfunding, years of respective governments undermining our public broadcaster to the point that we were at the tipping point with this recent crisis. My colleague said that bridge financing would maintain 2008 staffing and service levels. I wish that were true. If the government had been willing to work with the CBC early on, we might have addressed many of the job losses.

It has to be pointed out that if we go back 10, 12, 14 years and look at the government's response to the obligations to a public broadcaster, it has been to undermine it. It has been to ridicule it. It has been to make it come and beg every March for the $60 million extra appropriation, and the government leaves the public broadcaster dangling and does not tell it until the very last minute. It is a situation that no other public broadcaster would ever face. It has undermined the ability of the public broadcaster to do its job.

Even with the years of underfunding and the lack of commitment toward the role of the public broadcaster, Parliament, the heritage committee, Canadians in general have asked more and more from our public broadcaster. In response we have CBC TV, Radio-Canada, Newsworld, Radio 1, 2, and now 3, RDI, and Première Chaîne Radio. We have a network that is on in five and a half time zones with eight aboriginal language services. That is outreach no other public broadcaster in the world would have to face. BBC plays to one time zone with one English market. It is much more concentrated than what CBC is having to face.

Yet even with all these challenges, we see that in the last few years, English language television now has the number two market share in the country on the 8 to 11 spot at night. All-Canadian fare is beating the all-American lineup on Global. Radio-Canada television is seeing a market share of almost 20% in prime time and it is continuing to increase. CBC radio services are enjoying historic highs, almost 20% for Radio-Canada in each market, 14.1% for CBC radio. With respect to the CBC website, we have called for CBC to get involved online and now it is getting four million hits a month. Two million podcasts are being downloaded every month. The online CBC.ca program has a quarter of a million members.

As Hubert Lacroix, the president of CBC, said, if we go back 40 years, we will not find an example of a public broadcaster being this successful. It has been successful, despite the fact that it has been doing it on a shoestring. It has met all the requirements that parliamentarians, politicians and the audience have pushed on it. Not only that, but when I was on the heritage committee, it would be regular to say that we wanted a new plan for expanding television or for expanding radio, but there was never a commitment at the government level that addressed the fundamental problem which is the underfunding.

When we look at the recommendations that were brought forward by an all-party committee in order to address the CBC, if the government had accepted the recommendations that were offered to it by the heritage committee, we would not be in this situation now.

There were numerous recommendations in terms of the mandate and how to ensure accountability at CBC, but there were a couple of key benchmarks that needed to be met. One was the ratification of a seven year memorandum of understanding between the Government of Canada and CBC that would set out the respective responsibilities and obligations. That seven year memorandum of understanding would allow the corporation to note clearly what Parliament expected in terms of its regional services, its commitments to the arts, its commitments to official languages, and then it would have the financial appropriations to be able to do its planning over seven years. The Conservative government never accepted that motion.

One of the other motions was that we have multi-year funding and that the one-time funding of $60 million, which comes at the end of every March, and the minister has just announced it, would actually be added to its permanent core funding so it would not have to come and beg and it could actually make the planning.

Recommendation 4.4 I think was the key one, that after consultation with broadcasters, consultation with experts, we settled on the figure that we need to move the core funding to $40 per capita. It did not have to be done in one year, but that was the benchmark we needed to move toward.

Funding of $40 per capita is still much lower than the funding that is offered to public broadcasters anywhere else in the world. To get from $34 per capita to $40 per capita over a three- or four-year timeline would give us the resources to put CBC in the position where we want it. We did not get that from the government. We have seen a rather cynical approach to an institution that the government has been very ambivalent about. Many of the government members have ridiculed CBC. Many of them have said that they oppose the public broadcaster; they think the private sector would do it better. Yet, they have watched this public broadcaster try to bend itself in circles in order to address the competing mandates of the government.

One of the arguments always is that it should compete with the private sector, go more to the private sector. Our public broadcaster is becoming increasingly dependent on advertising revenues and when it is completely dependent on advertising revenues, the Conservatives ask, “Why does it need to be a public broadcaster? It is acting like a private sector broadcaster. Why does it not do what a public broadcaster should do?”

The CBC is caught in a television simulcast war against the U.S. giants, in which we are actually doing very well, thanks very much. It is the unwillingness of the government to set a clear course.

What would $40 per capita mean? If we could move CBC television out of the advertising game wars, that money would be freed up for the private sector. That would be one way of helping to address the crisis. CBC television would be able to provide Canadian content all the time. There has been much ballyhoo about the fact that it had to buy a few American shows like Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune and I am certainly not interested in watching Vanna White on the CBC, but I recognize it is having to buy programs because it cannot afford to make programs on a limited budget. There is no commitment from the government to make it possible.

If we had moved up the appropriations to $40 per capita, and we did that over a number of years and we set in place the other all-party recommendations, we could get CBC where it needs to be, which is to play a role that no other broadcaster in this country plays. That role is to make it possible for regions to speak to one another and to understand one another. It could let the young writers from Acadie be heard in other parts of the country, in order to allow a discourse about ideas and culture that is simply not available from the private broadcasters.

At this point we are looking at a government which has sat back and allowed a unique and proud institution to start to crumble because of the government's unwillingness to provide the bridge financing and its unwillingness to commit to a long-term vision. We are at the point where, because of all the cuts that have come before, because of what is happening now, if any further downturn happens, the future viability of this public institution and public commitment will be so challenged we are going to have to talk about the potential death of the CBC in certain parts of this country. It is having to sell off its assets. It has to be dependent on the minister to support it in those sales. Those assets are being sold at a time of market collapse. If it does not get the value for them, then more cuts are coming; that is the reality. I am not really clear where else we can cut at this point in terms of the loss of regional programming, the loss of what we are seeing in terms of the television market.

This is a debate I am very sorry we are having in the House today, but as members of Parliament we need to stand and say that we do believe in a revitalized commitment to a full and strong public broadcaster. That commitment has to be made. The cuts that are starting to affect our regions and our television and radio services are not acceptable, because once those things are gone, there will be no replacing them. The private sector is not moving in to deal with the losses we are seeing at the CBC.

We need a strong public broadcaster. We need to send a message from Parliament that we commit to CBC, we want to rebuild CBC and we want to make CBC the broadcaster for the 21st century that it should be.

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

Kootenay—Columbia B.C.

Conservative

Jim Abbott ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Cooperation

Madam Speaker, the member and I have worked on the committee together and we have crossed swords from time to time, but I found his speech this morning to be quite thoughtful.

As opposed to the Liberals who cut 4,000 jobs and cut between $400 million and $500 million out of the CBC budget to the point that the CBC president resigned, under this Conservative government, which is committed to a public broadcaster, over the last four budgets that we have had the opportunity to present to this House, we have seen an increase of approximately $100 million. I wonder if he would acknowledge that.

Although that might not be as far as the member would like to go, there are things that constrain any party when it is in government, which is something regrettably for the NDP members I doubt will ever happen for them, otherwise they might be faced with exactly the same challenges we face. While we can have reasonable and responsible increases in pursuit of our goal of ensuring that we have a public broadcaster, on the other side of the coin, we have to make those increases in a fair and responsible way as a government.

Opposition Motion—CBC/Radio-CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Madam Speaker, my hon. colleague and I worked together on the heritage committee and it was a lot of fun crossing swords with him many times. I hope we will be able to cross swords many times in the future.

I think my colleague is partially correct and partially muddying the waters. In terms of the hits to CBC, as I said in my speech, the reason we are here today is the years of chronic underfunding that go back to the massive cuts that were made by Chrétien and Martin in the 1990s. As my colleague said, the cuts damaged the CBC to the point that the president of the CBC at the time actually resigned.

We have been digging out of a massive hole ever since. The problem with his statement is that we have been hearing repeatedly from the Conservatives about their commitments to record funding, record funding, record funding. It is very much like getting kissed by the crocodile in terms of telling us how much they love public broadcasting. If one looks at the increases to the CBC, it is actually flat. What my hon. colleague identifies as increases are just the standard Treasury Board increases for inflation across the board. That is not any commitment to CBC. It just means they have not cut anything.

Other costs have gone up. CBC is stagnant and it remains stagnant. The heritage minister says that they have given record support. However, the issue today is bridge financing and loan funding that would not have cost the government money and would have allowed the broadcaster to do what any private broadcaster would do, which is when there was a shortfall, they could have gone to get financing to get through it. The government pulled the rug out from under them. Now, on top of the previous shortfalls, we are seeing a major hit to their bottom line.