House of Commons Hansard #68 of the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was sentence.

Topics

Controlled Drugs and Substances ActGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Mr. Speaker, even the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police talk about the need for a balanced approach. In their letter to the committee the police chiefs did not come out and say that they adopted mandatory minimums as the way to go. They were silent on that matter. They did talk about the need for enforcement to go after the big kingpins. Even they talk about the balanced approach.

The member has made a very good point that we have not seen the evidence that the bill will do anything to deal with the serious situation that exists with drug use.

Controlled Drugs and Substances ActGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the debate on Bill C-15, An Act to amend the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts.

Government members seem to think all they have to do is come here and list the provisions of a bill and that is their speech, but that does not speak to why the government is doing things. It does not speak to the impact the government is expecting. It does not address what the opposing views may have been and how they have been addressed or how they have been dismissed or how they have been compensated for. When committees handle bills, it is important that they bring back to the House a sense of where they have been on their important journey dealing with issues that are very important to Canadians.

However, the starting point of this bill was flawed in the first place because it was presented as a justice bill. Therefore, members should understand that we are dealing with a justice issue, not in the context of other important elements such as health issues and certain other areas. In fact, it is even narrower than that because it simply is another proxy for the government to say that it is tough on crime because it has brought in mandatory minimums. If we listen to the speeches and read the transcripts of the speeches that government members have given on this bill, they have continued to say that there is going to be a mandatory minimum and people say that is good because the offenders are not getting a penalty otherwise.

Not one of the government members included in his or her speech, and I listened carefully, that all of the offences that are referred to in this bill are subject to penalties of up to life imprisonment. Do members realize that? I do not think a lot of the people who are following the debate realize that. We are talking about very serious criminal offences. We are talking about drug offences and trafficking related to organized crime, utilization of weapons, dealing with these problems in the schools and being plagues on society. These are very serious crimes and they are subject to imprisonment up to life. I will read from the bill itself. This is the justice language, but these are indictable offences and liable to imprisonment for life. It says “for life”. It does not say “up to life”. Members have to read it. It is imprisonment for life. There is judicial discretion.

We are dealing with the most serious crimes. We are dealing with organized crime, those who are the plagues on society who use drug money to finance all other kinds of criminal offences. That is very serious. I suppose that anybody who is going to be charged with an offence related to organized crime is going to get a penalty up to life. If the government prescribes a mandatory minimum of one year, how is that important? Does it not say something? If a mandatory minimum is being put in, then some people are getting no sentence for this serious crime under the existing law. Is that true? I do not think so.

Controlled Drugs and Substances ActGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

It is true.

Controlled Drugs and Substances ActGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

There is plea bargaining; I understand that. If we want to talk about what happens in the real world, in the courts, we will see examples of where they will sacrifice prosecuting some low-level participant in criminal activity for an opportunity to get at the bigger kingpins, as it were.

There are all kinds of these things out there and people have to understand that. I am not a lawyer and I am not an expert in the courts, but I can say as a layperson that if we are dealing with an indictable offence that is subject to imprisonment for life and we say that we are going to also add a mandatory minimum of one year, that tells me that this life thing is not real. Why did the government members not explain that? They have to explain it.

There is a reason I want to speak to this bill. The member for Moncton--Riverview--Dieppe mentioned something about my age and that I have been around a long time. Well, it has been 15 years, but I have learned a lot.

Back on October 30, 1995 in the 35th Parliament, I stood in this place and gave a 40-minute speech. At the time, lead speakers actually had 40 minutes. I was the chair of the health subcommittee on Bill C-7 regarding the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. This bill actually started under the former Mulroney government but was never dealt with. It finally came before the 35th Parliament and the subcommittee was set up because it was not just a problem of health; there were justice and criminal issues that had to be addressed. There was a whole bunch of issues within society about decriminalizing marijuana and the advent of designer drugs. All of a sudden, people were getting very clever on how to manufacture drugs which were not even known. They had different chemistries and names and they were not included on the list. As a consequence of second reading debate, we found that it was necessary to expand the list.

A subcommittee was established. The member for Hochelaga was on that committee as well. There were thousands of communications and representations and dozens of submissions and witnesses on broad aspects. One of the important reasons we were doing that is that Canada, which is a signatory to many international conventions, had been identified as having failed to live up to its international obligations and had become basically a shipment point for the export of drugs to other countries. This was a very serious issue. We were under a great deal of pressure. I will refer to that a little later.

When we were finished our work, it was clear that it was important that we not only have a national drug strategy but that we also have the tools and plans to make that drug strategy work. When a drug strategy works, it is not just a matter of someone having done something, whether it be possession or trafficking, being a given a penalty, going to jail and everything is fine; it involves people. There are people involved in drugs at all levels. There are users, traffickers, the people who are financing and everybody in between. People are hurt. Families are hurt.

As has been discussed by a number of members, there is the importance of having some balance, such as a harm reduction strategy. How do we deal with these things? There is the aspect of a four pillar approach: harm reduction, prevention, rehabilitation and treatment, and enforcement. It requires much more.

This bill is simply a proxy for the government to say it is getting tough on crime and there will be a mandatory minimum for terrible crimes. Incidentally, and the government does not tell us this, people are subject to life imprisonment already. It did not go far enough.

As a matter of fact, the other thing government members did not mention in their speeches was proposed section 8 in Bill C-15. Proposed section 8 states:

The court is not required to impose a minimum punishment unless it is satisfied that the offender, before entering a plea, was notified of the possible imposition of a minimum punishment for the offence in question and of the Attorney General’s intention to prove any factors in relation to the offence that would lead to the imposition of a minimum punishment.

In other words, notwithstanding what the bill prescribes, the crown attorney has to give notice before someone enters a plea. There is discretion, in fact, if Parliament passes this bill, notwithstanding what members from the Conservative Party said that it is going to be mandatory and people are going to jail, no, the bill hands it over to the courts, to the crown attorneys, plea bargaining and all of that other stuff.

I should mention that the speech I gave was on October 30, 1995. It was significant in my life, and I think in Canada's life, because that was the day of the last Quebec referendum. That is why there were many people engaged in other things. I was asked to give the lead speech on it.

At the time, we debated, we discussed, and the committee went for over two years to address all the issues and concerns that had been raised at second reading. It went to committee. We started getting feedback from our international partners in terms of dealing with drugs, and Canada was a laggard and needed to do something.

Interestingly, many of the points now raised in this debate are the same issues and points that were raised in 1995.

We could not legislate a number of these things. These were recommendations coming out of the committee. These were pleas on behalf of a committee, and a committee report. It said not only does the bill have to be dealt with, we have to deal with scheduling of drugs and with designer drugs. We have to deal with fortified drug houses, for example, organized crime. We have to deal with rehabilitation and treatment and we have to deal with prevention. We could not put that into a bill because that was beyond the scope of the bill, but we reported on those things.

Still today, the solution to all problems of the government is that if people commit an offence it is throwing them in jail. I suppose that is fine for some, but what is the reality in the courts where people are going through the system and they are being judged with regard to the offences that are being referred to?

Back in 1995, the courts were overcrowded. There was no money for rehabilitation and treatment. There were no resources to have effective prevention programs. There was no comprehensive strategy to address the whole family of problems in the world of drugs. There was a plea by Parliament back in 1995, and the same kinds of problems continue today.

The fastest growing industry in the United States now is the prison industry: building jails. It is a system where if one commits an offence, one goes to jail. They say, “We will squeeze them in there. We will keep building jails. We will start privatizing them.” It is a growth industry. It is the biggest growth industry in the United States.

In a small way we are following that same kind of pattern, that when we have crimes we put people in jail and that takes care of it. However, eventually those people come out of jail, they go back into society. Many of them are repeat offenders.

Our system of justice incorporates the whole principle of rehabilitation, but it does not often work. If there are no resources, how can we expect people to come out of jail with a sense that they did something wrong, it was not a good thing, it hurt a lot of people, their life is going to get fixed up and they are going to have the support to make sure they continue on the straight road.

That is not part of the Conservative philosophy. The Conservatives' philosophy is, “They are criminals. We are putting them in jail and we will throw away the key. We are getting tough on crime.”

I think the country is probably worse off if all we do is continue to throw people in jail without trying to deal with the importance of rehabilitation, treatment and crime prevention. Where are those things?

As the federal government, we can pass laws that can amend the Criminal Code and drug laws. Who enforces those? Who is responsible? The responsibility for dealing with crime on the street is substantively within provincial jurisdictions. They, most of them, are the ones that are responsible for the courts. They are responsible for the programs. They are responsible for most of the jails. We have federal judges, but there are also provincial judges.

If we continue to pass laws that pass on more onerous responsibilities and all they are doing is filling up jails, who is going to pay for it? How are they going to be able to afford to discharge those responsibilities that are thrown at them by the federal level of government?

There has to be a shared responsibility. If the system is going to work, we need a strategy that covers all the possible approaches to dealing with serious crime whether or not there is a possibility of rehabilitation or appropriate treatment to deal with people who have been in the drug system. We have to deal with prevention.

I became a member of Parliament in 1993, and the first committee I was on was the health committee. I remember health officials coming before the health committee to talk about the state of our health system in Canada. They told us at the time that 75% of the money spent in the health system was on fixing health problems, addressing illness, and that only 25% was spent on prevention.

I will never forget it. There were 200 green rookies who had just been elected. Officials came before a committee of Parliament, and they concluded that how we spend our health dollars in Canada, with 25% on prevention and 75% on dealing with problems after we had them, was not sustainable. That has stayed with me all my years as a member of Parliament: the value of prevention versus punishment.

Our health system has tried to move in that direction, and it is very difficult, but I think that a dollar spent on prevention provides much more benefit in terms of better health for Canadians than a dollar spent on fixing problems and cures. We have to deal with it before it happens. That is part of why I wanted to speak on this.

I want the government members to know that I do not have a problem with mandatory minimums conceptually. If the courts are not able to do their jobs for one reason or another, there should at least be some period of incarceration. We need to defend the principles. The Liberals brought in mandatory minimums before the Conservatives. We had mandatory minimums in Canada, though not in all areas. It was not a philosophical thing, but it was not across the board.

However, the government seems to think that all it has to do is bring in 10 or 12 justice bills, prescribe mandatory minimums right across the board and that will tell everybody it is getting tough on crime. All it is really doing is filling up the jails and making angry people who will come right back to society. It is going to get worse, and it has in many cases, although some of the statistics I have seen seem to fly in the face of that in certain areas and for certain types of crime.

If we look at what happens in a period of recession and economic duress, the property crime in Canada goes up. It will track unemployment. It did in the last recession, and it will do so in this one too. That is going to put more stress on the system. We have to learn from history about how this works.

I want to conclude by saying that if the members are going to speak in this place, I do not want them to read the bill or give me all the provisions; I want them to tell me why we are doing this and to tell me the truth, that these provisions have life sentences associated with them.

However, proposed section 8 with regard to mandatory minimums sets conditions and provisions whereby the crown attorney and the people in the courts can basically decide that there will not be a mandatory minimum. Not one of those members said it, because it takes away from their argument that we are getting tough on crime. We are simply delegating that decision to the courts. The bill is not setting mandatory minimums; we are delegating that opportunity to the courts. There is much more that goes on in the courts. The members have not addressed it, and they have not done their jobs.

Controlled Drugs and Substances ActGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Madam Speaker, I do have some comments, and probably not any questions, for the hon. member for Mississauga South.

I was a little confused listening to his speech. In one instance he was against the bill. He does not think it is tough enough because he thinks there is an escape clause in proposed section 8, but then he goes on to say that all it will do is fill up our jails with criminals who do not deserve to be there.

I am a little confused. Is he for or against the bill? If he is against it, why exactly is that? I will try to help him out. He was critical of my speech because it listed the salient features of the act and he did not like that. He does not understand proposed section 8, so I will attempt to explain it to him.

Proposed section 8 is the provision that entitles an accused person to notice if the Crown is seeking a mandatory minimum sentence. There is nothing new or novel about proposed section 8, and this was not the focus of debate or discussion at committee.

I appreciate that the member for Mississauga South is not a lawyer, but if he talks to the lawyers within his caucus, I am sure they will satisfy him that in our criminal justice system the accused is entitled to full disclosure. The accused is entitled to know the evidence against him and the Crown's intention.

There is nothing novel or new about section 8. The Criminal Code is full of notice provisions, for example, if the Crown is seeking incarceration on a subsequent impaired driving operation, the accused is entitled to notice of that. The accused is entitled to notice of all the evidence. There is nothing new or novel about that.

With respect to the need for this, the member for Mississauga South was quite right, the maximum penalties do exist. For some trafficking offences, life imprisonment is available. The problem was that the courts were not awarding anything close to the maximum sentences. We have all sorts of anecdotal evidence where people who were selling drugs were sentenced to house arrest or to conditional sentences. The government feels very strongly that those who are involved in those types of activities ought to be subject to minimum mandatory sentences--

Controlled Drugs and Substances ActGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

As there were a number of other members rising to ask questions, I will let the member for Mississauga South answer.

Controlled Drugs and Substances ActGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Madam Speaker, the first thing is the point about the mandatory minimums. My comments were about the principle of mandatory minimums brought in across all the legislation.

The member may recall, maybe he was not listening at the time, that I was referring to the series of bills that the government had brought in, particularly in the last Parliament. That is why I reached the conclusion that in all of those bills the mandatory minimums would tend to increase the prison population. It is not this bill. It will not. It does not have to. For serious crimes, when a person is subject to up to life imprisonment, clearly if they are not getting, and he said “close to the maximum”, are they getting mostly in the middle? To say it is one year, clearly that is a token. It does not reflect an explanation as to why it is one year. Is the reason because the courts are not giving any sentences? The member has to be clear in his question.

I explained very clearly that if the court has the discretion, the court is not required to impose a minimum punishment, et cetera. That is proposed section 8. It is not what the member said. He should read it himself.

Controlled Drugs and Substances ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Speaker, I will make a comment before asking my question.

My colleague is quite right when he says that the court is not required to impose a prison sentence. However, we must read the clause in its entirety. The judge will have to justify and explain the reasons for his decision in the warrant of committal, which is forwarded to the prison. In addition, these decisions may be appealed. There is nothing more than that to guide judges. It would be exceptional. Furthermore, the accused must agree to participate in and complete a drug treatment program. That is what clause 8 says.

I would like to ask my colleague a question. In his riding, in the region he represents, what will be the impact of this bill on provincial prisons, the prisons that house adults serving a sentence of less than two years? Is the opportunity for rehabilitation not compromised by this bill?

Controlled Drugs and Substances ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Madam Speaker, earlier in the debate I started to jot down some notes, and one of the first things I did was to try to figure out what the assessment was of the current situation in the courts. I wrote down, “jails crowded, courts crowded, rehabilitation treatment not available for far too long”. The system has some problems. If there is no room in the jails, then new jails are built or people are not sent to jail but given house arrest or whatever.

The member who just asked a question previously raised this and said that all we were doing is giving house arrests. If the member would just think it through he would have to ask himself why. Is it just because we are soft on crime, or is it because we have a problem in the prison system?

Controlled Drugs and Substances ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Madam Speaker, I am a bit perplexed, quite frankly, by the position taken by my colleague from Mississauga South in his speech today.

He is obviously aware of the importance of prevention, and I fully support every comment he made in that regard.

My colleague is also fully aware of the impact of the bill in terms of incarceration rates both at the provincial level and at the federal level. The effect is going to be a substantial increase.

I think he is also aware that, yesterday or the day before, the federal Correctional Investigator came out with a report saying that any sudden influx would be dangerous to the system at the federal level to the extent of it being at the breaking point.

I think the member would agree with all those statements. If that is the case, how could he and his party possibly support this legislation when the effect is going to be so draconian and dire on corrections generally in this country?

Controlled Drugs and Substances ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Madam Speaker, I am speaking to the bill as a member who has had some involvement in the subject matter going back some time and I have heard these arguments before. I am going to support the bill because I do not think the bill would do anything.

In these particular cases, we are talking about the most serious crimes, such as trafficking in dangerous drugs, involving organized crime and use of weapons. If someone is given a mandatory minimum sentence of one year when they are liable to life imprisonment, there is something wrong in the court system. I cannot imagine anybody getting just the mandatory minimum as a total sentence. It has to be more than that, and if not, then there is a problem.

I spoke with a couple of individuals in the legal community. They asked whether I thought they would process the paperwork for a mandatory minimum sentence of one year. They are so overworked that they are not going to do it. The courts are already filled.

I am going to support the bill because I think it would do absolutely nothing.

Controlled Drugs and Substances ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Madam Speaker, I listened to my friend intently, and there was some suggestion that the government has not put into play rehabilitation services or drug prevention programs.

For the member's edification, I can tell him that just the other day I was pleased to work with the local health unit, which has targeted $184,000 specifically to youth in high school.

I want to say “children”, because in the bill, some of the mandatory minimums deal specifically with people who want to sell drugs to our children at school. The member for Mississauga South knows that is one of the most precious places we send our children and they need to be protected when they go there.

Controlled Drugs and Substances ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

I will have to interrupt the member. I should have advised him that there was time for only a very short question.

The hon. member for Mississauga South has 10 seconds to respond.

Controlled Drugs and Substances ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Madam Speaker, if it is a very serious crime that is subject to life imprisonment, then what is the relevance of a one-year, or even two-year, mandatory minimum? There is a contradiction. It is a problem with the legal system, the court system, and the jails. The member should understand that.

I would like to see a comprehensive approach that would deal with all four pillars to address the drug situation.

Controlled Drugs and Substances ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Speaker, I shall continue on the theme of the hon. member for Mississauga South and respond to his argument at the outset that it is a pity that the party he represents in the House has not understood the same thing as he has. If his party had understood the same thing as the hon. member for Mississauga South, we would not be at this point today and there would be no chance of this bill being passed. However it will be passed, thanks to the complicity of the Liberal Party. This bill seems to us totally unnecessary and dangerous. My colleague from Mississauga South is perfectly correct. We will not be filling the prisons with the real criminals, but with people in the early stages of becoming criminals.

The Bloc was opposed to, is opposed to and will continue to vigorously oppose minimum prison sentences because of four important points. This is not just my opinion. First of all, these minimum sentences “do not advance the goal of deterrence. International social science research has made this clear”. The Conservatives and some Liberals are vocal advocates of the opposite view. They need only look to the United States, where minimum prison sentences have been imposed, to realize that this has not solved the crime problem, which indeed is now much more deep-rooted.

In New Zealand and Australia, and specifically Northern Australia, an institute has produced a report entitled Mandatory sentencing for adult property offenders. They studied the issue thoroughly and found that a law passed in 1992 that imposed minimum sentences was useless and had solved nothing. Not only had it not reduced crime, it had increased it. Individuals are not prevented from committing crime by fear of a prison sentence. That is not my opinion: it is in the report.

The Conservatives are so vocal and insistent on this that we asked them to provide us with just one study. The hon. member for Lévis—Bellechasse can report to the members of his party and ask them if it is true that they have not produced a single study. Their answer will be incomprehensible. We asked them for one and they have not produced it, whereas we have submitted 12 studies. The Liberals submitted a few, and the Conservatives not that many, since they do not have any, but the Bloc and the NDP have invited expert witnesses who have studies that demonstrate that minimum prison sentences are of no use.

I ask my colleagues, including the hon. member for Lévis—Bellechasse, to listen to what these studies have said.

The evidence shows that long periods served in prison increase the chance that the offender will offend again... . In the end, public safety is diminished, rather than increased, if we “throw away the key”.

This was said by the federal Minister of Justice in a 1990 study entitled Directions for Reform: Sentencing, Corrections and Conditional Release. This was when the Conservatives were in power under a certain Brian Mulroney, though it is true that at that time they were called Progressive Conservatives, whereas they are now Reform Conservatives. So we have it in black and white. They have seen the studies, but they continue to maintain their position.

We also need to draw hon. members' attention to the fact that mandatory minimum sentences have been harshly criticized in a number of other major studies, including the report of the Canadian Sentencing Commission.

This is not our idea. It does not come from the evil separatists. The ones who say so are the Conservatives, the Reformists, and they turn up with this bill. That was my first point, but I have three more.

Second, the Bloc Québécois has always and will always be opposed to mandatory minimum jail terms, and will fight them vigorously because they:

...do not target the most egregious or dangerous offenders, who are already subject to stiff sentences. [—precisely because of the nature of the crimes they have committed]

I will repeat for the hon. member for Lévis—Bellechasse and certain members of his party, who will perhaps understand.

More often, it is less culpable offenders who are caught by mandatory sentences and are subjected to extremely lengthy terms of imprisonment.

Those are not our words. They are written in black and white in reports and all my quotes are from those reports. The position of the Bloc Québécois is based and focused on that. It would be interesting for my colleague from Mississauga South to speak to his Liberal party colleagues, who do not get it at all. The member for Mississauga South and the members of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights got it somewhat, but they claim they have no choice.

No choice but to do what? Fill up our prisons?

One thing is for sure: the prisoners will get out one day. Our Conservative-Reform friends have to realize that the prisoners will get out one day. Mandatory sentences are given to the least guilty offenders, and they are the ones who get sent to crime school. When it comes to minimum prison sentences, the problem with the Conservatives and some of the Liberals is that they do not understand that a person given a minimum one-year prison sentence, for example, is eligible for parole and will get out after serving one-third of the sentence. That does not solve the problem. The Conservative-Reformers do not get it. They do not understand that the prisoners will get out.

Usually, people who work for organized crime—the real target of this bill—are given heavy sentences anyway. As recently as yesterday we saw that in the Hells Angels file in Quebec.

I still have two points I want to discuss. My third point is this:

Mandatory minimum penalties have a disproportionate impact on minority groups who already suffer from poverty and deprivation. In Canada, this will affect aboriginal communities, a population already grossly over-represented in penitentiaries, most harshly.

I am not the one who said that. A federal Reform-Conservative organization said that. Juristat, the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, reported on the issue in Juristat: Returning to Correctional Services after Release: A Profile of Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal Adults Involved in Saskatchewan Corrections from 1999/00 to 2003/04. That appeared in vol. 25, no. 2, published by Statistics Canada in Ottawa in 2005.

I do not think that the Conservatives get it. They will be targeting a poor and disadvantaged segment of the population. We all know that. I will not elaborate on that now. My NDP colleague from Vancouver has already discussed the huge problem with aboriginals and minorities several times.

They are the ones who are going to pay for an unfair, unacceptable law that makes no sense. We will keep on opposing it. Mandatory minimum sentences are not the answer.

Last but not least, I want to make the point that mandatory minimum sentences subvert important aspects of Canada's sentencing regime, including the principles of proportionality and individualization—the member for Lévis—Bellechasse should not move, because I am going to explain what these two big words mean—and reliance on judges to impose a just sentence after hearing all facts in the individual case. What this means is that the government is trying to direct the judicial system by introducing laws that will require judges to impose mandatory minimum sentences.

What the Reform Conservatives and part of the Liberal caucus do not yet understand is that the problem is not when offenders go into prison, but when they come out.

These guys—90% of inmates in federal prisons are men—go to prison after the judge has explained to them why he imposed a three-year sentence, for example. The judge explains his reasons and talks about rehabilitation. In some cases, he may tell the offender that it is not appropriate to talk about rehabilitation, because there is not much chance that rehabilitation will be available for him. The judge will also tell him that it is important that society be protected and that, as the offender does not seem to have understood that, he is being sent to prison for three years.

Imagine the judge's surprise when, eight months after handing down a three-year sentence, he sees the guy in the street. The judge calls the police and explains that he sentenced the offender to three years in prison. The judge is told that the offender was a model inmate. The judge replies that he had trafficked in drugs and had been given a three-year sentence. Yes, but he went before the parole board, and because this was his first offence and he was not a bad guy, he was released.

There is the problem and that is what the Conservatives do not understand. It is simply that prisoners do not serve their sentences. One day the Conservatives and part of the Liberal Party caucus will have to realize that the problem is not when offenders go into jail but when they get out.

There absolutely must be respect for judges. This bill does not respect judges; it imposes minimum sentences. All the necessary tools were already in place.

I know we must refer to specific sections and clauses. Let the Conservatives go and look it up. They did not read section 718 of the Criminal Code carefully. They should reread it. It sets out the sentencing principles to be followed by a judge when imposing a sentence. It talks about rehabilitation, the protection of society and the risk of recidivism. All the criteria are found in that section and judges are familiar with it.

When a guy appears in court for drug trafficking for the fourth time, will the judge give him a conditional sentence? Of course not. Only a few Conservatives believe that.

I was a lawyer for 30 years and I can say that when I went before a judge with a client charged with his fourth trafficking offence, there was no question of obtaining a conditional sentence. The judge would speak to the individual, explain to him that it was clear he had not yet understood, and explain why he was giving him such and such a sentence.

Respect for the judiciary is extremely important as is the principle of sentencing. We are not the ones saying it. The Supreme Court of Canada has acknowledged that incarceration should usually—I say usually—represent the criminal sanction of last resort and that it may be less appropriate or useful in the case of aboriginal offenders.

I cite the Supreme Court ruling in the Gladue case in support of this argument. The Conservatives do not get it and do not seem to want to understand that there must be respect for judicial discretion.

Imposing minimum sentences solves nothing and does not reduce the crime rate. There is no study showing that, and goodness knows I did try to get hold of one. I started by asking the minister, then his staff, and then all the deputy ministers and representatives in the Justice Department, but no one could provide a study that proved that minimum sentences solve anything.

The problem with Bill C-15 is that it has the effect of depriving judges, when passing sentence, of the discretionary power to properly determine the penalty that best balances the fundamental objectives of sentencing.

I will try to put it in simpler terms for some of my Conservative colleagues so they can understand. The more you imprison people, the less you solve the problem. If they do not get that, it is a pity. They can come up with tons of bills, but there is no room in the prisons. They just need to go and check that out. It is not hard to do so, so let them go and check it out.

There is a provincial jail in the Quebec City area, another near Amos and one near Hull. So they do not need to travel far, there is one just across the river and it is filled to overflowing. It is chock full. They do not even know where to put inmates awaiting trial or sentencing. The problem is that they are filling up the prisons but offering nothing to inmates.

When we look at Bill C-15, we see one aspect, that the individual can receive a lesser sentence—the judge will not be obliged to impose a minimum sentence—if he successfully completes a treatment program appropriate to his condition. The problem is that there are no treatment centres. It is all very well to put it into a bill but there are no treatment centres.

The problem with the member for Lévis—Bellechasse is threefold: one, he does not hear two, he does not listen; three: he will repeat it back all wrong. There is no appropriate treatment centre. There is no money for it. They will send people to prison but they are not able to provide appropriate treatment. We are hearing this from the penitentiaries.

Does he know how it works? The member for Lévis—Bellechasse still does not understand. With a three-year sentence, an individual is eligible for parole after one third of his sentence. Eight times three is 24, so after eight months, he is eligible.

That individual has no prior offences, it is his first sentence and his first time in prison. What happens in such cases? It takes four months to even look at his case. What happens then? He is sent to the Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines federal reception centre, put in a corner and observed. Officials will wait a little and analyze his case in order to choose the appropriate treatment. Then, after three or four months, a decision is finally made: he is sent to a minimum security prison or a maximum security prison.

The problem is that there are no services for him in the meantime. If he is eligible for parole after serving a third of his sentence, what happens? He had a two-year sentence—eight times three is 24—so he has four months left to serve. What will he do? He will go play cards and he will not be offered any services. None. That is the problem that the Conservatives just do not understand. Mandatory minimum sentencing solves nothing.

I know I am nearly out of time, but if I could pass along a message to our friends in the Liberal party, I would say they should reconsider their position and have another look at this bill, which solves nothing and will not reduce crime rates. I will not waste my time on the Conservatives, who will understand nothing of this. The only way to make the Conservatives understand that minimum prison sentences are useless is to beat them in the next election, and that is what we are all hoping for.

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12:40 p.m.

Fort McMurray—Athabasca Alberta

Conservative

Brian Jean ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to address this issue.

I was curious about issues presented by the hon. member. He seemed to have two different issues in his comments, one in regard to minimum sentences and the other in regard to having enough facilities and enough concentration on rehabilitation.

I also had the opportunity of being a criminal lawyer in northern Alberta where 25% of the population is aboriginal, and I have seen the large proportion of aboriginals in that particular area who go to jail. It is not acceptable.

Many of those aboriginals are my family members. I remember one in particular who spent two and a half years in jail for a simple assault. In fact, he was rehabilitated. He spent time in Drumheller, in the correctional centre there, and he came out rehabilitated. He now has a wonderful family with five children, and he is doing very well. He is sober. Things are looking much better for him.

Indeed, I have had the opportunity to see it both from a family perspective and also as a criminal lawyer. I had a very active practice there.

I saw inconsistencies across the country. I saw individuals being convicted of a trafficking charge in Vancouver receiving a fine, and individuals with a trafficking conviction in Alberta receiving a year in jail for the same type of offence.

I think we need to stand up for victims in this country and we need to have consistency across the country. I want to ask the member, particularly because I do have the experience, why is he not in this particular case standing up for victims? He is talking about criminals and about not enough being put aside for rehabilitation.

By the way, this government has allocated a tremendous amount of money for new prisons and rehabilitation, and we are looking at different ways to help prisoners once they are in there.

We want to stand up for victims before it happens, before there is a re-offence. I am wondering why in this particular case the member is not thinking about the victims instead of the criminals.

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12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Speaker, the member might be a lawyer, but he did not learn from the right people. It is not complicated. We are not here to talk about victims. We have other ways of addressing victims' rights, such as help centres for victims of crime, some legislation and even an ombudsman. That is not the problem.

Whether my colleague likes it or not, the Criminal Code, which he would do well to reread, does not apply to victims. That is not my fault; that is the way it is. If he thinks that he can protect victims with a bill that imposes minimum prison sentences, I wish him luck. He will not fix anything.

The problem is that minimum prison sentences to not solve anything. Rehabilitation centres will offer some solutions. When we make rehabilitation our priority, we will start thinking about it more seriously. Yes, we need time-outs and prison sentences in extreme cases, but not for first offences.

Yes, I agree that trafficking drugs is not a good thing, especially not near schools. We all agree on that. However, we have to ask ourselves why it happens near schools. I know that my colleague from Lévis—Bellechasse does not get it, but if it is happening near his school, then maybe there is a problem in the community.

Unfortunately, victims often get stuck in a system, but this bill is not about protecting victims. It would be wrong to say that we are protecting them.

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12:45 p.m.

NDP

Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON

Madam Speaker, the member for Abitibi—Témiscamingue quoted the Conservatives from 1990. I have not been here for very long, and I would like to ask him what caused the Conservatives to change their minds. In 1990, they would have been against this bill, but today, they are in favour of a bill that provides for minimum sentences.

Can he explain the difference between the 1990 Conservatives and today's Conservatives?

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12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Speaker, the answer is very simple.

I thank my colleague from Nickel Belt, my riding neighbour or almost.

The answer is simple: they tailor their policies to win votes. They think that if they touch the right nerves, the public will be more on their side. They would have the public believe that they are solving problems, even though that is not true. They will not solve any problems; they will just create new ones. They will no longer be here, but I would love to see some of these members again in 10 years to see how they solved the problem. I am not at all sure that they will be successful.

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12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Madam Speaker, this discourse has been absolutely fascinating, and I want to say a couple of things.

As a result of my 16 years working in drug and alcohol programs as a physician and also working in jails, the fact is more than 70% of the people in federal and provincial institutions have a substance abuse problem and often a psychiatric problem in addition. It is called “dual diagnosis”. The majority of those who traffic, usually low-level drug dealers, traffic to earn money to pay for their addiction problem. The underlying problem for most of the low-lying drug dealers is this addiction problem. The bill will matters a lot worse.

Does my colleague not think we have to introduce solutions that will treat individuals, prevent drug abuse and also ensure, particularly in provincial institutions, that individuals have the substance abuse treatment, the skills training and the psychiatric treatment they require?

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12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Speaker, my colleague from Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca is quite right, but it is too bad he has not said that to the rest of his gang. He is quite right. Is the government thinking about rehabilitation and social reintegration? No.

My colleague should talk to the other Liberals, because he is quite right. Rehabilitation systems must be implemented, and that means reintegration and treatment in detention. People wind up in prison because they have serious problems. Of course, I agree that there are true criminals, but 80% or many of these criminals should not be in prison. They are there because of a great many factors.

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12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank my friend from Abitibi—Témiscamingue for his eloquent statement. I would like him to help me understand the Liberals’ position.

In committee, since they have had a new leader, they seem to be thinking in two directions, and the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing.

I would like my colleague to remind us what the Liberals’ position is.

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12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Speaker, the Liberals’ position is somewhat surprising, which is the least I can say in the circumstances and still preserve the dignity of Parliamentary debate.

They are opposed to the bill, although sometimes they are in favour of minimum sentences because they can be useful, but then again some could be opposed because sometimes rehabilitation centres present problems since there is not enough money.

I had a hard time understanding. I sat on the committee and I listened very carefully to the questions they asked. The questions from the Liberal Party were clear, but I have the impression— just a little feeling—that they felt an election coming on. I think the tough on crime ideology is somewhat attractive to them. They have a right-wing Liberal base that is a little risky and they are afraid of losing it. So they say they will support this bill, that they will try to amend it and that, after that, they will fight for rehabilitation centres.

Well that is not how it works. Unfortunately, the damage will be done and it will be irreparable. The Liberals who support this bill will pay the price, I guarantee it.

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12:50 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

If the member for Lévis—Bellechasse still wants to ask a question, I will give him the floor. Because he was named in the speech, I will give him a chance to speak.

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12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I would like to thank my colleague. I am very proud to represent the riding of Lévis—Bellechasse and Les Etchemins. My colleague from Abitibi—Témiscamingue must be jealous, because it is one of the most beautiful ridings in Canada. That is why we have a legislative agenda on legal issues that is constructive and progressive. I would also like to thank the member for the kind words he had for the Conservatives and the previous Conservative government. I am proud to be part of it.

That said, I am sorry my colleague has taken an ideological approach to the bill that is before us today. I expected, given that he really is such a great advocate, as we must acknowledge, that he would take a more pragmatic approach.

The 2010 Vancouver Olympic and Paralympic Games are on the horizon. We have street gangs. Unfortunately, we have them in all our communities, and these people manipulate young people, particularly young women. We see sexual exploitation, unspeakable and unacceptable things. We cannot close our eyes to these situations.

I call on my colleague to answer this question: how can he abandon those victims and let the criminals back out on the street before they have served their sentences, which terrorizes the victims? I call on my colleague to state why he is taking the side of the criminals and not standing up for the victims, as our government is doing.