House of Commons Hansard #84 of the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was provinces.

Topics

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Daniel Paillé Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Madam Speaker, I heard the amendment proposed by the hon. member for Outremont. Unfortunately, his amendment simply did not hold water, it did not make sense.

We presented this motion because a federation exists between equal people. We are not opposed to federations; it depends on how people are treated. Usually, federations are created by people who consider each other equals. It can be a group of friends, neighbours or merchants. It can be a group of people who are different but who, in all equality, have decided to pool together a number of things. That is the principle and the basic principle is that none of the members of a federation takes precedence over the others. That is the very basis of that political concept.

Let us go back to 1867. It was determined, in a number of territories, that certain governance powers should remain close to citizens. Those entities which are now called the provinces—Quebec was one them—decided to do in their own way everything that affected their citizens directly and closely. That is why the establishment of cities, for instance, has nothing to do with the federal government. It is entities from Quebec and the other provinces that decided to create their own municipal bylaws.

The provinces decided they would keep education and health under their responsibility, as well as social affairs, culture and language, particularly in Quebec, for business relations with entrepreneurs, individual investors and small and medium size businesses, because they felt they were in the best position to look after these matters. They also decided to share a number of things that did not directly affect people or the public, such as the army, defence and borders.

I come from a family of entrepreneurs, of grocers. When I was very young, my father was an independent grocer. He was in control of his grocery store and no one could tell him what to do. At one point, we joined a co-op, a federation. It was called Les Épiceries Lasalle. Later on, it became Les épiceries Metro, and we pooled a number of things together. However, I can assure hon. members that no one, neither the Metro federation nor any Metro grocer could say anything to the owner of our family store. They had a say about things that were decided together, but certainly not as regards anything else.

As far as the federal government’s appropriation is concerned—and here is where we come back to our motion—I get the sense that the federal government finds it easier to ask for forgiveness than to get permission. It encroaches and then takes a wait-and-see approach: if people complain, we will tell them that they have nothing to complain about; and if they do not, we will move in on such and such an area of jurisdiction and present it as a fait accompli. There have been many examples of this.

Let me now turn back to the very nature of power. If one has certain powers, one's principles determine whether one keeps or shares them. Things get a little trickier when it comes to using these powers. Money, taxes and levies are required. Things get more nuanced, and discussions or even disputes ensue.

If the money is coming from elsewhere, not from our own pocketbooks, we may be less critical. When children get a Christmas present, it comes from Santa Claus, not from their family. When they are really young, it is the parents who control the purse strings and decide what is best for the child. You often hear children say that they would like this or that, but Santa Claus does not listen to them for their own good. That is all well and good when the child is young and does not have any money, but what happens when the child is a teenager? It is a little tougher, and among adults it is a different story altogether. Everyone here has had the experience of giving children gifts. What do you do when these children are older? You give them money or a check and tell them to use the money as they see fit.

So there is a certain level of maturity required when wielding these powers, which are a gift from someone else. When it is my money and my taxes, I am not going to have someone come along and tell me what to do with it. Nobody is going to tell me how to spend my money. And that is when big problems crop up. There is a difference between being given a house, a car or a cottage with a mortgage, and having a mortgage-free one. At some point, you will ask whether you can decide that you do not want it because you would rather manage the tax field or mortgage yourself.

In Quebec, every government—be it the Parti Québecois government of which I was a part, or the Liberal government the member for Outremont was in when he was in Laval—has repeatedly observed that this spending power was never given to the federal government to be used as it is currently being used.

The result is that the federal government loves to spend. It decides to do this or that because it thinks it is good for Quebeckers and Quebec families. Where does it get the cash? From the pockets of Quebeckers. That is where it gets its taxes. No more water can be squeezed out of a sponge than there is in it. At some point, poor Quebec taxpayers start wondering which government is theirs.

If a survey was done across Canada asking Canadians which government was theirs and who their Prime Minister was, they would instinctively say the Government of Canada. In Quebec, though, it would be the Government of Quebec, regardless of who the Premier was and the government in power. We identify much more with Quebec than with Canada.

The federal government invades our tax room. Tax room is a space where there is income from which the government can decide to take a portion. We would rather look for tax room among people earning more than $150,000 or $250,000. We said so last year in our pre-budget submissions.

If other provinces do not want that, it is okay, they can do things their way and use their tax room as they see fit. If the Canadian provinces want to give more powers to the federal government, they should do it and give the Government of Canada taxing authority. They may regret it though. In Quebec, that is not how things work. In Quebec, the fiscal imbalance led to the Government of Canada’s excessive use of too much tax room. We made the decision in Quebec to pay for social services, education, day care and health care. At some point, there is very little tax room left. It is all gone. When two governments are in the same tax room, we have what is called a fiscal imbalance. It does not come out of nowhere. It happens when governments cannot agree to come to terms on a certain tax room and use it well.

When a government takes advantage of tax room, it is because it is entitled to do something with the money it collects. When there is tax room, people give their government the ability to collect taxes and provide services. When one of the two parties does not merely offer but imposes services and says things will be done its way, and it wants to fund these things with money from our pockets, at some point, a huge problem arises. The fiscal imbalance in Canada was never resolved, regardless of what our Conservative friends might say. We are always aware of that in Quebec. I repeat: all Quebec premiers, whether from the PQ, the Liberals or even the old Union Nationale, have agreed that the fiscal imbalance problem has never been solved. Never. It is an illusion.

While we wait for a majority of Quebeckers to get behind the idea of having a government that uses the entire fiscal room and adopts its own measures in relation to health, social services, education, culture, languages and everything else, what are we doing in the Bloc Québécois? We are working, and for example, under the leadership of the member for Saint-Lambert, we have introduced Bill C-507, which is up for consideration in the House. At the press conference I held with my colleague, I said it was a reasonable accommodation. It is our way to say yes, let us do that while we wait for Quebec to be a sovereign country. What do we say about that? We say that in Quebec, we should have the sovereign, inescapable right to take all of our powers, to prevent the federal government from allowing new spending, to get the federal government out of areas where it has no jurisdiction, and to stop this kind of behaviour. There is one other aspect that we must keep in mind and that is that money must come with those measures. What kind of money? We are not expecting a cheque, we are expecting fiscal room. If someone is delighting in the cheque they got from their parents, or cash as a gift, when they became a teenager or an adult, and then keep expecting such handouts the rest of their lives, at some point they will be waiting a long time. What does a person do? They say: “I am going to create my own fiscal room, I am going to be independent and I am going to create my own wealth.”

That is what Quebec wants. The federal spending power should be limited to what it originally was; it should withdraw from the entire room it has invaded since then; and the government of Quebec should get a transfer of tax points and be able to work with them, either by giving the money back to the taxpayers or by using it according to its own standards. We have seen that in the past. The Government of Canada took one or two points off the sales tax. At that time, and that was the same government we have now, the Government of Quebec used it by returning it to the taxpayers of Quebec. That was its decision. Did we agree? That is not the issue, here. It was the government that decided. Personally, I would have liked to use it differently, but we respect the authority and power of the Government of Quebec. It is the federal system that we have a problem with.

Just now, they were making fun of the Bloc Québécois’ new guru, but it has to be said that there are mirages in life. Sometimes, there are flashes of brilliance. Sometimes people see UFOs and are convinced they have seen them.

This is what the member for Beauce said:

Ending the federal spending power, eliminating the federal programs that violate the division of powers, and transferring tax points to the provinces would be the right thing to do from several perspectives.

That is what he said. The speech is on his website, and in it he also said:

Instead of sending money to the provinces, Ottawa would cut its taxes and let them use the fiscal room that has been vacated. Such a transfer of tax points to the provinces would allow them to fully assume their responsibilities, without federal control.

That is not a new guru. That is someone who saw a UFO, and who claims that that is the way it should be. That is what he might have thought, but it will not happen. The Government of Canada simply does not want to go that way. It is telling us that if are not happy, we either accept it, or we go away and become sovereign and independent.

Is it the same everywhere in Canada? No; some provinces are perhaps fine with the federal government having control over certain things. Good for them. We do not want that. That is where we differ. When there are conditional transfers, we refuse them. Who has power over whom? That is the question.

Is this a more sensitive issue in Quebec? Perhaps not. Is it different in Quebec? Yes; it is different because we are different. That must be accepted. We will remain in North America. We will continue to do business with Canadians and Americans. We will continue to trade. Canada has Quebec to thank for being so open to the world. However, a nation does not let someone else control its culture, its social development, its education or economic development. Is that simple enough? We cannot accept that Canada acknowledges we exist, but that it retains control over us. In Quebec, we say that we exist, so we will control our own affairs.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Guimond Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Madam Speaker, I congratulate the hon. member for Hochelaga on his excellent speech, and I thank him for his contribution to our party and to Quebec over the years and particularly since his election, last year.

My colleague is the Bloc Quebecois finance critic. Immediately after his election, he met his fellow members and toured Quebec, to fully understand our needs and our interests.

I represent a rural riding where regional development is very important, and we are noticing incredible interference on the part of the federal government in this area. I would like to get my colleague's take on this. If Quebec had total control over its regional development, what difference would it make for a region like eastern Quebec or the Lower St. Lawrence?

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Bloc

Daniel Paillé Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to mention the tribute paid to the hon. member earlier this week by his peers. We recognized his great qualities and his contribution to Quebec's agricultural community. He and I are two totally different persons. Yet, we are alike in that we both aspire to a sovereign Quebec.

I used my father's grocery store as an example, but we could also take his own farm. In addition to being an MP, my colleague is a farmer. Would anyone tell him what to do on his farm? No. In eastern Quebec, in the Gaspe Peninsula, in the Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean, in the North-West of Quebec, in Montreal and in the Eastern Townships, we could tell farmers and the agricultural community that all our revenues and taxes go to a single government, in Quebec City. That is where agricultural policies and support programs would be developed. We would not have to fight with someone who is 5,000 kilometres away. That is the difference. We would be our own masters and we would be the ones deciding what to do with all the taxes and duties.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière Québec

Conservative

Jacques Gourde ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services and to the Minister of National Revenue

Madam Speaker, our government, led by our Prime Minister, is the only one that can serve the interests of Quebec. For instance, we made a commitment in the 2006 election campaign to restore the fiscal balance between Ottawa and the provinces.

We kept our word and fulfilled that commitment in budget 2007, which was supported by the Bloc Québécois. In May 2006, the leader of the Bloc commended our position and said: “The government's firm commitment to address the issue and eliminate the fiscal imbalance is a major step forward for Quebec...” Now the Bloc is questioning that major step forward, for purely partisan purposes. Quebeckers deserve better. They want their elected representatives to talk about the economy, not sovereignty.

I have a question for my hon. colleague. Can he tell me why his party wants to eliminate the federal spending power, even though he supported budget 2007?

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Bloc

Daniel Paillé Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Madam Speaker, in response to the hon. member for Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, I would say I agree with one sentence he said near the end of his prepared statement. He probably departed from it when he said: “Quebeckers deserve better.” Yes, Quebeckers do deserve better than what you people are offering. Besides, you will realize this during the next election, my friend, when you are thrown out.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

Order.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Bloc

Daniel Paillé Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Madam Speaker, I was giving an impassioned response.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

Passion is quite acceptable, but I would ask the hon. member to address all of his impassioned comments to the Chair.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Bloc

Daniel Paillé Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Madam Speaker, I would be pleased to address my comments to you because that is much more pleasant. I apologize for addressing the hon. member for Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière directly, but I thought he had addressed me directly.

As for Quebec's interests, people know that in the past six general elections, the majority of Quebeckers voted for the Bloc. Bring on the seventh election and we will see who gets trounced.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Madam Speaker, I see that in the motion, the Bloc is siding with the hon. member for Beauce. There could not be an MP any further to the right.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

An hon. member

Yes, that is true.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Look at that. The hon. member from the Bloc agrees with me.

Is the Bloc taking a new direction? This summer, when we were talking about Statistics Canada's census long form, the leader of the Bloc was prepared to cut employment insurance benefits from people who did not fill out the form. He was prepared to take away from workers the employment insurance benefits they need to feed their families. Right in front of the media, the leader of the Bloc said he was prepared to take away passports or employment insurance benefits, the very livelihood families depend on.

Where does the Bloc stand today? Where does the leader of the Bloc stand today? Is he on the right now? We are certainly seeing that once again today in the Bloc motion, which sides with the hon. member for Beauce. I am starting to get worried. Quebeckers should be worried and start asking questions.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Daniel Paillé Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to reassure the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst. I love his speeches and I would like to reassure him.

No, we have not turned to the right like the hon. member for Beauce. We will not be joining him. In my speech, I said that he was deluding himself. He thinks that is how Canada might think, but in 1867. That Constitution no longer exists. The Liberals repatriated it in 1982, but no Quebec government has ever accepted it.

So I want to reassure him, because when he speaks so passionately, he goes red, and I would not like to see the hon. member have a problem here in the House. So let me reassure him that we have not taken a turn to the right.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Beauport—Limoilou Québec

Conservative

Sylvie Boucher ConservativeParliamentary Secretary for Status of Women

Madam Speaker, I completely agree with what the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst said about passports. The Bloc Québécois made our blood boil this summer. I want to keep my passport; I see it as a benefit.

Can my esteemed colleague opposite explain to me why the Bloc wants to do away with the spending power at the same time as he is asking the federal government to increase all transfers to the provinces?

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Daniel Paillé Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Madam Speaker, I will just say to the hon. member for Beauport—Limoilou that it is our money, and I pay taxes to Canada. I keep paying and I abide by the law. There have been two referendums, and even though one of them was stolen from us, we accepted the result and we continue to pay our taxes. Transfer payments are part of the existing structure. I want to do away with the federal spending power because it is not used in the way I want. I want to control it, because I feel sure that the hon. member for Beauport—Limoilou would, at home in an independent Quebec, be better able to ensure the development of her fellow citizens than is presently the case with two layers of government. Sadly, when that happens, the hon. member for Beauport—Limoilou will no longer be here.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Nepean—Carleton Ontario

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs

Madam Chair, it is a great pleasure to rise in the House today to discuss this important matter. I would like to thank my colleagues for having raised this issue.

It is interesting to see that today, the Bloc is attempting to support a theory that it opposes in practice. Every day, the Bloc rises in the House of Commons to advocate for a bigger role for and more spending by the federal government, a bigger role for the federal level, which means a bigger role for Quebeckers.

The Bloc wants the federal government to spend more, and consequently wants it to get more deeply involved in employment insurance, the arts, education, health, equalization payments, sports, and the list goes on. Every day, we see the Bloc rising in the House in order to ask for more money and more federal expenditures for all Canadians, including Quebeckers.

In fact, I cannot even think of one single occasion where the Bloc asked for a reduction in spending or the elimination of a federal program.

Given that record, it would be appropriate to change the name of their party and call it the Centralist Bloc. It is really one of the most centralist parties in the House of Commons. It is not difficult to understand why the Bloc is ready to work in a coalition with the Liberals, a party that is also a centralist party, and the New Democrats, the most hyper-centralist party in the House.

The three coalition parties support the infinite expansion of federal programs and expenditures. Thus, the Bloc motion we are studying today would forbid practically all of the demands made by the Bloc each and every day.

We Conservatives focus on real results rather than rhetorical and contradictory debates. Take the results we have already delivered for Quebeckers, such as a seat at UNESCO, the resolution of the fiscal imbalance, and the parliamentary recognition of the Quebec nation.

In addition, we are completing the implementation of our economic action plan. This plan worked extremely well. It has been recognized around in the world as having allowed us to avoid the worst repercussions of the global recession, which were much more serious in other countries.

Thanks to our plan and our Prime Minister's actions, we were able to avoid the worst consequences, which we saw in other countries. We have created almost 400,000 jobs since our economy started to rebound from recession-related losses.

We funded thousands of projects throughout Canada, including in Quebec. It is interesting and even encouraging that, despite having fought against these projects, the Bloc Québécois is now saying that they should be extended.

It is interesting to note that the projects our government funds in Quebec under our economic action plan would have been prohibited by the theory now being advocated by the Bloc Québécois. It is passing strange that the Bloc wants to forbid the very same projects that it now wants to see extended. I do not know how you can extend a project you wish to prohibit. These are the contradictions of the Bloc Québécois. They are inexplicable.

I will continue to talk about the concrete results our government is delivering for all Canadians.

I want to talk about the tax-free savings account, probably one of the most revolutionary tax changes in modern Canadian history, the most important change in tax savings since the introduction of the RRSPs.

As I understand it, the Bloc Québécois is not fond of the tax-free savings account, but we in the Conservative Party have introduced this vehicle for savings. How has it worked? Do members know how many Canadians have opened tax-free savings accounts? Five million Canadians have opened tax-free savings accounts and they have accumulated, in one year since those accounts have opened, $18 billion in savings.

All of the interest, dividends and capital gains on that $18 billion will all be tax free, meaning it will go back in the pockets of the hard-working and responsible Canadians who set it aside for their futures. They will have the ability to take that money out and use it to invest in a new home or to purchase a second residence. After they have done that, they will be allowed to put that money back in the account without any penalty and, when they put it back, they will be able to once again fill the room that they vacated when taking it out, and, of course, enjoy into perpetuity tax-free gains on their money.

I just finished describing the benefits to the savers of these accounts, but what about the benefits to the overall economy? When people put this money into their tax-free savings accounts, they are not just sliding it under their mattresses and waiting for it to collect dust. They are actually investing it in companies through mutual funds that invest in equities. Those companies are then able to hire more people with that money and to create more jobs, more wealth and more growth for our country.

Sometimes people will put it in savings accounts at banks. Those savings accounts are then used by the financial institutions to lend out that same money into the economy to a small business person or to someone else who needs it, so that they can go off and create economic opportunities and jobs. Therefore, the $18 billion are an investment into our Canadian economy and it is a tax-free benefit that will literally pay dividends for generations and generations to come.

We have also introduced reductions in taxation on job creators. When I say job creators, I mean the companies that go out and hire thousands of people in order to carry out the daily operations of their enterprises. We are lowering their tax rates from 22% to 15%, a one-third reduction, which will mean that Canada will be the lowest taxed place in the G7 to carry out business, and by business I am referring again to those job creators.

Because of those policies, we have created 400,000 jobs. As the House leader of our government often says, that is 400,000 phones that rang, and when a person picked it up the voice at the other end of the line said, “You have the job. You are hired”. That is probably the most joyous phone call an unemployed Canadian could get.

Our focus over here is on lowering taxes on job creators so that job creators can do what they do best. In other words, we believe the government should lay off the job creators so that job creators can create jobs, rather than having the government tax those job creators who then have to lay off employees. That is the approach of our government and we will continue to create jobs through our policy of lower taxes.

However, our tax reductions have not been limited to job creators. We have cut taxes for consumers by lowering the GST from 7% to 5%. We have lowered income taxes. We brought in tax credits for kids' sports, students' textbooks, tradesmen's tools, seniors and passengers' bus passes. All of these activities now have special tax credits that help people keep more money as they go about their daily lives.

We had a very successful home renovation tax credit, that created thousands of jobs in the renovation, roofing, carpentry and, frankly, the forestry sector. The Bloc Québécois voted against it and after voting against it, it claimed that it was its idea in the first place. In fact, all the opposition coalition parties voted against the home renovation tax credit at various times and later claimed that they had come up with the idea in the first place.

It is an interesting way to come up with an idea, by voting against it, but that is okay. We consider it encouragement. In fact, we are quite flattered when people who have opposed our ideas in the past want to adopt them as their own in the present.

We have done all of this with the view to help middle class, ordinary families to put dollars back into the pockets of normal, everyday working people. That is why we brought in a different approach to child care, which was a $1,200 per year child care allowance.

Now, the Bloc Québécois wants to introduce a bill in the House on spending power, a bill that would eliminate the Canada child tax benefit. The Bloc Québécois is saying that the federal government should no longer provide this benefit. The Bloc Québécois members are saying that this program encroaches on the jurisdiction of another level of government.

With this motion, the Bloc would eliminate this child tax benefit. The Quebec MPs who worked on implementing this program, including the member for Lévis and the two members for Beauce, have never mentioned Quebeckers calling their offices to complain about this benefit. Every Quebec family is in favour of the Canada child tax benefit. The same goes for my constituency. All my voters are in favour of this extremely popular program, which has given children a choice. The Bloc wants to take this choice away from children by introducing a motion that would deny the federal government its spending power in this area. I would like to know how many of their voters would be happy about the cancellation of this benefit, as the Bloc Québécois proposes.

We have a great opportunity to hear from one of the best MPs in the House, the hon. member for Lévis—Bellechasse. I would like to share my time with him and I hope he will continue to speak about this topic.

The Conservative Party will continue to meet Quebeckers' expectations and to respect every provincial jurisdiction, as it has always done. We are going to continue to meet the expectations of families, taxpayers and all Canadians.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

I regret to inform the member that it is too late to announce that he wishes to share his time.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Madam Speaker, I listened carefully to the speech by the Conservative member, whose job is to create diversions. He spoke about measures such as the Canada child tax benefit. He even spoke about TFSAs. That is a diversion tactic.

I remind the member that on December 19, 2005 in Quebec City his leader, the Prime Minister, made a formal commitment regarding the federal spending power. With his hand on his heart, he said:

I have said many times, even since the election of this new government, that I am opposed and our party is opposed to federal spending power in provincial jurisdictions. In my opinion, such spending power in the provinces' exclusive jurisdictions goes against the very spirit of federalism.

How can the member say today that he is opposed to a Bloc Québécois motion that is clearly in the spirit of the comments made by the Prime Minister on December 19, 2005?

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

Madam Speaker, we have kept all of our promises and followed through on all of our commitments to Quebec. I would like to know whether there is a single program that we are currently funding that the Bloc Québécois would want to see cancelled. We work well with the Quebec government, with its consent, to deliver thousands of projects included in Canada's economic action plan.

Why does the Bloc Québécois rise daily and repeatedly to ask the federal government to increase spending and expand programs that fall directly under provincial jurisdiction?

At the same time, it says it wants to eliminate the role of the federal government in those areas. The Bloc must decide where it really stands. Question period is in an hour, and I imagine that a Bloc Québécois member will rise to ask for more money or another federal program for Quebeckers. Then that member will vote in favour of a motion such as this one, which conflicts with those very actions. The Bloc Québécois really must choose one or the other. Otherwise, we will be fully justified in continuing to refer to it as a centralist party.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to commend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs for his excellent speech, his vision, and his understanding of the issues in Quebec and Quebec's importance in the Canadian federation.

I would also like to tell him that I share his vision and that I am opposed to the motion put forward by the Bloc Québécois today. This motion is based on a narrow, simplistic and ideological vision, which has been keeping Quebec on the backbenches for far too long.

Fortunately, with this government's help, a number of members have been able to initiate major changes for Quebec, such as correcting the fiscal imbalance. This was done here, with Conservative MPs from Quebec like my hon. colleague from Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister of Canada. This was done thanks to a government which understands and respects Quebec and its prerogatives, and wants to maintain the kind of spirit of open federalism it has shown in recognizing Quebec as a nation.

I have a very simple question for my hon. colleague. We know that the Liberals slashed transfers to the provinces. They unilaterally patriated the Constitution, which is absolutely scandalous in a country like ours. We in this government are busy working. As members know, on top of Canada's economic action plan, which was supported by the Conservative members but opposed by the Bloc, we have maintained transfers to the provinces at record levels, be it for health or education, at a time when we were going through the worst economic crisis ever.

My question is for the parliamentary secretary. It is true that Quebec has never received as much money in transfer payments from the Canadian government as it has under the current Conservative government?

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

Madam Speaker, there can be no doubt that the Conservative Party, together with members such as the hon. member from Lévis—Bellechasse, is meeting Quebeckers' expectations. Every day, the Bloc Québécois and its leader rise in the House to ask the federal government to play a more significant role in Quebeckers' lives.

I have some quotes here. On December 15, 2005, the Bloc asked the federal government to play a more significant role in education. On February 21, 2008, it asked the federal government to play a more significant role in post-secondary education. In 2006, it claimed it was in favour of child benefits, but those benefits would not be allowed if the Bloc Québécois motion were carried today.

It is interesting how, every day, the Bloc Québécois asks the federal government to spend more on the arts and in other areas. I have never seen the Bloc Québécois oppose federal spending. It is in favour of all expenditures and it wants the federal government to contribute. It even demands more federal spending and a bigger government in Ottawa.

This is all part of the fundamental Bloc paradox. The party claims to be pro-sovereignty, but it has been here in Ottawa for 17 years. This shows Canadians that their country does work and that Quebec plays an extremely important role. We are very proud to have Quebec as part of our proud, united country. As a Canadian, I am celebrating with the hon. members here the great success that Canada represents.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Madam Speaker, in today’s Bloc Québécois opposition day debate on federal government spending power, there is nothing new.

We have been calling for limits on federal government spending since 1993. Successive Quebec governments, from the time of Robert Bourassa through to the era of Jean-Jacques Bertrand—not to mention every member of the Parti Québécois—have consistently called for limits to be set on the federal government’s power to spend.

In fact, allow me to quote a former Quebec premier. He said, “Quebec continues to believe that this power to spend in solely provincial areas of jurisdiction should quite simply not exist, and that the federal government just needs to let it go.”

And it was not a sovereignist who said that. Robert Bourassa, a federalist, made the statement in 1970. So this is nothing new. One certainly cannot label Mr. Bourassa a sovereignist, and yet I hear the Conservatives, Liberals and even occasionally the NDP saying that the Bloc only moved this motion in order to promote Quebec sovereignty. Of course we are sovereignists. However, this motion is simply about limiting the federal government’s spending power.

When the time comes to vote on Tuesday, I hope that members, and in particular members from Quebec, will realize that this request to limit federal government spending power has been made repeatedly by Quebec for many years.

It is also important to remind members of this House—particularly Quebec members on the government side and those in the Liberal party who, when power appears to be within reach, seem to once again favour highly centralist positions—that there is a strong consensus in Quebec that Ottawa must stop interfering in areas of jurisdiction that are not its own.

I would also like to mention something that I failed to indicate at the start of my speech: I will be sharing my time with the member for Joliette.

Now, back to the debate. As I said, all governments—from Jean Jacques Bertrand’s to Robert Bourassa’s, right through to Jean Charest’s, as well as all the sovereignist PQ governments—want control of all the tools they need to better meet the needs of Quebeckers; there is unanimous agreement that federal spending power must be limited.

Over the years, Ottawa has cheerfully gone about spending money in areas of jurisdiction that are not its own, areas that are the responsibility of Quebec and the provinces. And yet, this spending power that Ottawa has appropriated for itself across all of these areas, which are supposed to be the exclusive purview of Quebec and the provinces, causes problems and raises numerous obstacles.

The result is that Canada dictates to Quebec much of what it should or should not do in all its fields of jurisdiction. That is the big problem. That is an issue because in Canada there is more than one nation. There is the Canadian nation and the Quebec nation, recognized here in the House, symbolically of course, not to forget the aboriginal nations.

Through the spending power, the Canadian nation imposes its views on the Quebec nation. Every time Ottawa creates a program or spends in a field of Quebec jurisdiction, it is Canada deciding how Quebec society will be organized and structured and how programs will be implemented in Quebec. In many cases, whether in regard to health, regional development or education, there is all kinds of duplication.

Sometimes we have debates here about big national mental health programs, but in Quebec, all the regions and local community service centres, as well as the provincial health and social services department, have their own programs. The result is duplication, which costs huge amounts of money, instead of investments in improving health. All kinds of money is wasted. Every time Ottawa sets conditions before making transfers to Quebec, it forces the Quebec government to implement Canadian priorities rather than Quebec priorities. That is the problem that always arises.

Here is a case in point. Parental leave is a major issue that the Bloc Québécois debated in the House for many years. Nearly 20 years ago, the Government of Quebec wanted to institute a suitable parental leave system. The problem was that Ottawa was already using its spending power to intercede through employment insurance. To create its program, Quebec therefore had to get the money already being used by Ottawa. At the time, Ottawa refused. In 1996, the Quebec National Assembly voted unanimously in favour of these parental leaves. Still Ottawa said no. We all remember the Liberal government of the time cutting social programs. Unfortunately, the Liberals apparently still embrace this centralizing approach because the signs are all that they will vote today against the Bloc motion, although I hope not. So the Liberals have learned nothing. The Conservatives made false promises, and the New Democrats have centralizing policies, a little like the Liberals, and are prepared to poke their noses into jurisdictions that are none of their business.

To come back to parental leave, five years later, the National Assembly unanimously passed the bill creating parental leave. As you will have guessed, Ottawa, true to form, again said no. We had to be patient, at that time, and wait five more years to see legal action by the Government of Quebec and the election of Paul Martin’s minority government, with the Bloc Québécois at its heels, for Quebec, after 23 years of hard-fought battle, to finally achieve its parental leave program. All of the members from Quebec who are present here can confirm this. That program is very popular and it is no accident that the number of births has been rising since it was implemented. This is one example, but let us not forget that there is not a single area under Quebec’s jurisdiction that has not been invaded by Ottawa.

The Conservative member made me laugh when he talked about family policy. He said that if we limited the federal spending power, we could say good-bye to the child tax benefit. We are only talking about transfers. That money, which is paid by Ottawa, would be better managed by Quebec in a family allowance program, for example. The Conservative members turn a deaf ear and act like hypocrites when they say they are in favour of limiting the federal spending power, as their leader said during the election campaign and in various speeches since then, with which the member from Beauce seems to agree. We see here that the Conservative government could take advantage of all the positions it has taken in recent years and vote in favour of the motion by the Bloc Québécois.

We are talking about areas under Quebec’s exclusive jurisdiction, family policy, health, education, or regional development. These are examples of mistakes made by the federal government. In 2008-2009, the federal government spent over $60 billion in areas that are within the jurisdiction of Quebec and the provinces. That figure is quite telling. It also shows that the fiscal imbalance has not been resolved. As the Séguin report said, the problem of the federal spending power is closely connected with the discussion of the fiscal imbalance.

In closing, I urge all members in the House to vote in favour of this motion, which Quebec has been calling for for many decades.

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Madam Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for his excellent speech.

We have been debating since this morning and it feels good to finally hear something rational and logical, to have a coherent discussion. This morning, the NDP pathetically tried to say that the Bloc is taking advantage of this opposition day to talk about an issue that has been of concern to it since 1993 and that was brought back into the news recently by the hon. member for Beauce, and that suddenly, the Bloc has become a right wing party and a fan of the hon. member for Beauce. The utterly ridiculous thing about that is that the NDP will be voting with the Conservatives. If we follow their partisan logic, the NDP is becoming a right wing party since its members are voting with the Conservatives on this motion. This rationale only goes so far.

Does my colleague think that the strategy the NDP used this morning is nothing but a diversion to avoid speaking to the heart of the matter, namely that it is a centralizing party to the extreme? We saw that recently with the social housing bill, where they voluntarily excluded the possibility of opting out for Quebec. They had done that in the past for other bills and they chose not to take that route.

Is this not just a diversion and is that not the most centralizing party in the House?

Opposition Motion—Federal Spending PowerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Madam Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for that excellent question.

I was in the House and I heard the NDP speech. I was not very surprised, because the NDP considers itself a very progressive party. We saw that it was very aware of Quebec's need to opt out of social housing programs. We also saw this when the vote on gun registry was held. A very progressive party would have taken a stronger unanimous stand on that issue.

All the federalists—the NDP, the Liberals and the Conservatives—are against giving the Quebec nation the right to make its own choices and determine its own future. They have also opposed all the governments of Quebec since 1970. Even earlier, Jean-Jacques Bertrand, a former premier of Quebec, did the same thing. So it is not surprising to see the attitude of the NDP and the other parties in the House toward Quebec's needs and interests.