House of Commons Hansard #114 of the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was right.

Topics

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

The only good thing he ever did.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I hear support for that from the Conservative side, which does not surprise me because it probably would have done the same thing. A least the current government probably would have done the same thing.

However, any analysis of the invocation of the War Measures Act says that it was wrong and unnecessary, which is quite clear, but that it targeted specific communities, whether it was the sovereigntists in Quebec, a number of the labour movements or other political activists on the left in Quebec, with absolutely no basis for them to be attacked by their government.

The charter says that we do not accept that and that we will put in place both the rules and the ability to enforce those rules.

If we were to go back and study the debate that went on for at least 10 years up to 1982 when we finally repatriated the Constitution and brought the charter into effect, the debate was between the supremacy of Parliament and the right of individuals within society to be protected from their government at times when they were being discriminated against. The War Measures Act is a good example, but there are any number of other ones, such as the treatment of the Japanese Canadians during the Second World War and the Manitoba school question in the early 1900s in terms of linguistic rights. We can look at what was going on in the fifties in Quebec with Premier Duplessis attacking the Jehovah's Witnesses simply because they wanted to practise their faith.

We can go through any number of examples where provincial and federal governments in Canada, prior to the charter governments, breached fundamental rights, fundamental civil liberties. That has not happened much since the charter came into effect but there have been attempts.

The other thing the charter has done is it has made it possible that individuals or groups who are being discriminated against or being abused by their government, whether at the provincial or federal level, have some place they can turn to for relief. It is the essence of democracy. I do not think anyone disagrees that the right of the majority rules as long as it respects the rights of the minority. We cannot have a democracy unless we have both those elements.

However, we also cannot have a democracy if people who are in the minority and who believe they are being discriminated against do not have some place to turn, a shield to protect them and a process to utilize that shield. The charter gave us that . We can go back to the bill of rights that Prime Minister Diefenbaker brought in. It was a simple bill of this House. It was not a fundamental law and it was not part of the Constitution. A couple of times in my practice I attempted to use it and, as always, there were very few exceptions, I always remember the Drybones case because it was one of the few exceptions where the court applied the principles in Mr. Diefenbaker's bill of rights and gave the first nations person some relief from what was clearly an abusive policy under the Criminal Code at the time.

I think that was the only case that occurred under the bill of rights where some relief was granted. Any other time it was invoked or an attempt was made to use it, which I think came into effect in 1962 or 1963, the answer was always no, that was a bill and that this law, which is using the minority, supercedes it. That was the situation we were faced with until 1982 and then in 1985 when the balance of the charter came into effect.

Since that time, if individuals believe they are being abused by either the provincial or federal government and they have convinced the court, whether it is under section 2 or sections 7 to 15 of the charter, they receive a fair hearing in the vast majority of cases and, if they are able to forcefully put forth the facts, they are granted relief in the vast majority of cases. As charter decisions evolved, the type of relief received also evolved.

It is a meaningful, useful document. It is that shield which, in the vast majority of cases now, protects minority groups in this country. Women's groups have used it extensively to establish their rights. We argue that men and women are equal in this country but the reality is that it has taken a good number of cases, several of them all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, to enforce those rights. The gay, lesbian, transgender community has used it.

In the case of same sex marriages, couples had to take their case to the Supreme Court because the Liberal government of the day tried to hide behind the charter by sending it off to the Supreme Court, even though clear messages had been sent by a number of courts at that time. To its credit, the Supreme Court ruled in some respect favourably but also sent it back here.

Unfortunately, and I hear it from the Conservatives but it was true with the Liberals, the charter does not only empower the courts, it also imposes a responsibility on this legislature. We, as legislators, have a responsibility under the charter to ensure, as we are drafting laws at this level of government, as do provincial governments, that the bills we pass are charter-proof.

The attorney general has a responsibility under the present system to ensure that every bill that goes through this House is analyzed from the perspective of the charter. We need to be more transparent and more accountable in that regard. We get opinions on any number of bills from the justice department that are questionable and that we do not assume our full responsibility as legislators that has been imposed on us by the terms of the charter.

Where are we at this point? There is overwhelming support in the country for this. It has worked extremely well. Members from the Commonwealth who use the Westminster system of Parliament, the concept of the supremacy of Parliament, and other countries that have similar bills of rights or charters of rights, tell us that they have looked much more to Canada as a model, not just in the drafting of their documents but, more important, because it is an ongoing process, they have looked to Canada and our courts for interpretation of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, as we did when we helped draft the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, that are true for the whole world.

No matter what kind of political background or economic system a country has, those fundamental rights should apply to everyone: the right to practice one's faith, the right to freedom of speech, et cetera. We can go down the list but we know what they are.

The rest of the world, at least within the Commonwealth, in particular those who work under the Westminster system, look to Canada and our courts for the interpretation. I have been critical at times but our courts have taken a middle road. They have not been overly activist by any stretch of the imagination but, at the same time, they have consistently upheld the charter and those fundamental rights for all Canadians.

I will use an example of where I have been critical of the courts. Under the right of association, I believe that interpretation should be extended to the right for people to strike, to withdraw their labour. It seems to me that flows logically from that right of association. If people have the right of association, then they also have the right to not associate, especially with regard to labour. Courts have not been willing to accept that in this country.

I could point to other things the courts have done that I would be critical of. For example, some of the rights that have been extended to corporations that give them similar rights to individuals has maybe gone too far. It has certainly gone way too far in the United States. Hopefully, we will not follow that model.

I raised my concerns and objections that I have to some of the interpretations. A fundamental mistake that the Conservatives and right wing ideologists make is that they say that this is a really bad decision and that the charter has fundamental flaws in it. Those two things are not logically sequential. People can say that they disagree with a decision, as the about to be member from Vaughan did when he said that the Hells Angels had benefited from the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I think that is factually wrong but, more important, it is wrong because what he was really saying was that he did not like the courts' interpretation of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. He was not attacking the charter, if he had thought about it, but I think he sometimes had a problem doing that in terms of understanding what he was really saying. What he was really saying was that he did not like that interpretation of the charter mostly around due process in the case of the Hell's Angels.

Some people have expressed opposition to the charter. Again, I will exclude my colleague from the Bloc in this regard because the Bloc does have a fundamental opposition to the charter, one I do not agree with. It is with regard to protecting French language rights in the province of Quebec.

However, when we hear people say that we must do something about the charter because it is fundamentally flawed, as we have heard the Prime Minister say, they are not really talking about that. They are really saying that they do not like the interpretations by our courts. It goes back to, as we know with the government in particular, the lack of trust in the judiciary. The government sees the judiciary as being way too activist in this country.

However, if we stand back at the international level and look at our courts, all the way from the trial level up to the Supreme Court, they have not been overly activists at all. My criticism would be that they have not been activist enough, particularly with some of the anti-terrorism provisions that we made. It took the courts until about 2006 or 2007, the federal court in particular, to begin to say that what was happening was fundamentally breaking fundamental rights. We have now begun to see them take on that responsibility that they are supposed to be doing under the charter.

I wish we would not have had this debate today because it was not necessary and there are any number of other issues. However, I want to say for the Canadian people who are listening and for the rest of my colleagues in this chamber, that there is no issue about whether the charter should be in existence in this country. It is absolutely necessary and it has an almost overwhelming 100% support from constituents right across the country.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Mr. Speaker, I was astounded to hear the NDP member say that the charter does not need defending. He skates by it by saying that the Prime Minister's egregious comments about the charter was really an attack on the judiciary.

Although I agree that thePrime Minister does not have any faith in the discretion and quality of our judiciary, he fundamentally attacked the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. His supporters fundamentally attacked the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The Conservative government took away funding for the court challenges program so that the minority groups that my friend spoke in support of, cannot find the means to get into court.

My friend should spend some time with Michel Doucet and retired justice of the Supreme Court, Michel Bastarache. He should understand how difficult it is to get a charter challenge just on language before the Supreme Court to use the charter to challenge government decisions.

Where is the fire in the belly of my friend? Why is he saying that the charter does not need defending? I would have expected more from him. I want to hear a fiery answer as to why he thinks, given the chance, that the charter does need defending, that we do need the court challenges program back and that the comments of the Prime Minister are anti-charter.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rarely take direction from a Liberal with regard to my passion or fiery speeches. I am not going to take instructions from those members.

If we sit the Prime Minister down and ask him where the fundamental flaw in the charter is, he does not have an answer for that. What he is really saying is he does not like some of the interpretations, even though he used the courts repeatedly for some of his own agenda and programs that he wanted to pursue prior to being a member and being thePrime Minister.

Getting rid of the court challenges program, the ability of groups to challenge the government, was clearly a mistake, one that we opposed at the time. It should be reinstituted the same as we need the law commission to be reinstituted and funded properly so it can do the work. A lot of the work it did helped in supporting and buttressing our fundamental rights and civil liberties. Both those programs should be reinstated and funded properly. I have no objection to that.

The reality is we will continue to have challenges under the charter, in spite of cutting these funds. I accept the fact that it will not be as effective. Maybe at some point in the future, the government will see that.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

Noon

Conservative

Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Mr. Speaker, the NDP justice critic knows that I am a supporter of the charter as is he. He also knows, as my friend from Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe pointed out, that occasionally members on this side of the House do disagree with certain decisions, certain interpretations of the charter. I guess that is one of the benefits of living in a free country. We do not always have to agree on everything.

However, I have a question for him. Yesterday, in the House, a bill passed on concurrence, extending human rights protection to certain groups that perhaps were not contemplated in 1982 when the charter came into existence. Would he not agree that in those types of instances, given the challenge of opening up the Constitution and amending it, which has been tried twice and failed miserably both times, it would be better to have those types of protections in legislation, such as the Diefenbaker Canadian Bill of Rights 1960, which is easier to amend and expand when needed?

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

Noon

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Speaker, I do not think we can go back to a simple bill guaranteeing rights in our country. It did not work. Anybody who practised law during that period of time knows this.

The reality is the charter, and we hear this phraseology all the time, is a living document. We expect much as we had before the charter, where judges could interpret what the fundamental rights were. They just were not doing it well enough. We now have that. We expect that new rights may very well be recognized as time goes on.

However, the charter and the interpretation of the charter in our country has been reasonably useful in doing that. The process is there. It has worked reasonably well in recognizing additional rights.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

Noon

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, since my colleague opposite has raised the issue, I would like to tell a quick anecdote.

I was taught by Pierre Elliott Trudeau. He gave 15 hours of lectures on Diefenbaker's Canadian Bill of Rights. He concluded that it had had virtually no effect because it did not have constitutional status. He bore that in mind when he created the charter.

I have a great deal of respect for my colleague who just spoke and I would like to ask him another question about a consequence of the charter. Does he think that the charter has deprived Parliament of its decision-making role on major social issues, for example, abortion, euthanasia or the protection of journalistic sources? We expect the courts to rule on these issues whereas, in many democratic countries, the elected representatives of the people debate these major issues.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

Noon

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Speaker, in response to that question, I would say no. We have governments that hide behind the charter, and the Liberals are a good example of that, especially when it comes to their policy on same-sex marriage. That is one example.

When we look at what happened here, the debate was quite broad, but it was forced. It was not necessary. My friend from the Bloc gave other examples. Among others, we had a debate on euthanasia because of a bill introduced by his party. I was against the bill, but we had the debate. I have been clear about this. Parliamentarians must not hide behind the charter. It is our responsibility. It is not the responsibility of the courts. It is the responsibility of parliamentarians in the House.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Madam Speaker, the quote from the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which I have in my hands, says:

Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

(a) freedom of conscience and religion;

(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;

(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and

(d) freedom of association.

The democratic rights section says:

Every citizen of Canada has the right to vote in an election of members of the House of Commons...to be qualified for membership therein.

It says:

Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada....Rights to move and gain livelihood.

The section on legal rights says:

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice....the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure....Everyone has the right not to be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned.

Upon arrest or detention, it says everyone has the right:

—to be informed promptly of the reasons therefor;

...to retain and instruct counsel without delay...and to have the validity of the detention determined by way of habeas corpus...

Could my hon. colleague comment on how important he thinks those rights are and whether he thinks the current government's position, particularly with respect to the G20 situation this summer, is in keeping with those noble principles?

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Madam Speaker, I will deal with it from two vantage points.

First, it worries me that we have a notwithstanding clause that allows governments to take away a number of those rights, even though they have to renew that bill every five years. That is scary.

Specifically with regard to what happened in Toronto, it seems to me that the provincial government had a very clear opinion that what it was doing was within the charter. I do not know how those opinions could be brought forward when we look at the provisions in the charter and at the history of the right of freedom of expression, the right to picket, and the right to demonstrate in our country. A number of those rights were actually recognized before the charter even came into effect. It is really hard to imagine that a lawyer gave it an opinion that this process was charter-proof.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to participate in the debate for many reasons, but for one reason in particular. The last time I participated in a debate in the House on the subject of the charter was at the time of its adoption. I think I am right in saying I am the only member currently in the House who had an opportunity to not only participate in that debate, which I did on the question of the resolutions and motions before the House at that time. I also had an opportunity to see the charter adopted as part of our Constitution in 1982. Therefore, it is an interesting time for me to be able to respond to some of the comments made by my colleagues.

Some statements have been made over the last while about the charter and the importance of it and about the important opportunity for us, as Canadians, to reflect on our constitution, on our basic values, on our rights, on our freedoms and on our responsibilities as well. We would not be having this debate if it were not the case that both the Prime Minister and the newly elected member for Vaughan and others have made comments that attempt to cast a shadow on the charter, that challenge the validity of the charter, that put our laws and our understanding of our rights and freedoms into some kind of a political quagmire where they do not belong.

I particularly enjoyed listening to my colleague from Windsor—Tecumseh. He is sitting in the same seat from which I delivered my speech in 1981, if that gives him any comfort. I appreciated his comments today and the very balanced way in which he made a presentation. The only disagreement I have with him is on the question of whether we need this debate. I think Canada does need this debate and this discussion because there has been far too much talk with far too little response about the charter from the members of the Conservative Party. Over the last 15 to 20 years, they have launched a very significant broadside against the charter and against the interpretations of the charter that have gone forward.

Some will say that they are not actually challenging the charter, that they are only challenging the courts. However, for the government of the day to start attacking the courts on a systematic basis is almost as unhealthy as saying that it will not attack the courts, but rather it will simply attack the constitution. It is important for us to understand what this new ideology taking shape and form on the opposite side means and the threat it poses to our sense of balance and to our sense of the importance of the entrenchment of rights and freedoms.

The debate that took place in the late 1970s and early 1980s was not something which happened out of the blue. There was a very long discussion in the country, not only about the patriation of the Constitution, about which we can continue to discuss, but also about the question of whether we in fact needed a charter, why we needed one and what the Canadian experience was that lead us to think we needed a stronger entrenchment.

Many of those arguments have been set out by my colleague from Windsor—Tecumseh, and I do not feel a compelling need to repeat them, except to make two points.

First, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was not imposed on the House by the prime minister of the day. It was adopted by the House. It was adopted by members of many different parties. It was debated, discussed, reviewed and analysed by every conceivable legal group in the country that looked at what the document meant.

Second, it was not simply an imposition of a set of rights that had never existed before. Rather it was a codification of those rights. It took rights which already existed which, in many cases, had already been applied by the courts. We then said that those rights were so fundamental that they should be entrenched and should have priority over all other legislation.

We all know what happened with the notwithstanding clause and the compromise that was eventually reached, but I want to note that it is of great interest to me, apart from the Province of Quebec, which has its own political issues with respect to the charter, the extent to which other provinces and provincial governments and the federal government have not in fact invoked the notwithstanding clause because of the value that we see in the charter.

So what did the Charter of Rights and Freedoms do? It did not just come out of nowhere. It was the product of the Canadian experience of situations in the past in which we, as a country, did not always recognize the importance of fundamental rights. The House recognizes that there are some very sad examples of people being jailed because of their country of origin and their culture.

My colleague from Peterborough is well aware of what happened to Italians interned in prison camps when war broke out in 1939-40. He knows that the decision violated the fundamental principles of our Constitution. We now know it too.

We all know what happened to the Japanese. Madam Speaker, consider your riding in British Columbia. We all know what happened to the Japanese who were interned in prison camps over there for years for no reason. Their property was seized by the Canadian government and they were denied recognition of what happened. Eventually, Parliament itself was compelled to respond and, after decades of experiences, recognize that injustice.

We have other examples. We have the notorious Alberta press case of the 1930s where the Supreme Court of Canada said that actually a province cannot require newspapers to print stories that are simply favourable to the government in response to criticisms that may have been in a newspaper. The government of the day, which was a Social Credit government in Alberta, tried to impose rules and regulations on the newspapers of Alberta with respect to what they could do. Our Supreme Court said “No, you cannot do that”.

Our Supreme Court over the years in the 1940s and the 1950s began making decisions that said very clearly there are rights and freedoms, there are due processes, there are things that have to be observed. However, we came to the conclusion that it was not strong enough.

That is why we passed the charter, which gave protection to basic freedoms, gave protection to due process, rights of search and seizure as referred to by my colleague, the member for Vancouver Kingsway when he did his recitation and his question to the member for Windsor—Tecumseh. We saw the examples. We cannot simply go into somebody's house. We cannot simply knock on the door and pick someone up without having any cause. There are things that have to be done.

However, these are not invented by the courts, nor in fact were they invented by the charter. There is a problem I have with the comments made by the elected member for Vaughan, who is not yet the member for Vaughan, Julian Fantino, and I know Mr. Fantino very well. I have known him for over 25 years. When he says, for example, “Who has reaped the greatest benefits from the Charter of Rights and Freedoms? I would argue that if it isn't common criminals, then it must be the Hells Angels”. He made those comments in his book, Duty: The Life of a Cop.

I would say to Mr. Fantino, what exactly is it in the charter that he objects to? Is it that there has to be due process? Is it that there have to be rights, that the police have to follow processes in order to carry on their work? Is it the application of law, the due process of law, to what it is that has to be done? What exactly is it in the charter that people object to? What is it in the wording of the charter that people say, this is wrong? The police should not have to follow the law. The police should not have to do this or that. I find that hard to understand. That is why this question now becomes so important.

If we take our rights seriously we entrench them in the Constitution, which is what we did. We then say that once a right is entrenched the only body in our system that can actually interpret that are the courts. We have given this job to the courts. We have said it is part and parcel of the courts' responsibility to deal with this.

Therefore, the suggestion that somehow the courts are acting inappropriately or that the courts are doing something that Parliament did not ask them to do is nonsensical.

We are not alone in this regard. Most other countries are moving to an entrenched bill of rights, to an entrenched charter, a charter that looks at basic freedoms, due process, equality rights, the rights of minorities and multicultural groups, and in the Canadian context aboriginal rights. I want to touch briefly on each of these in my comments.

With respect to equality rights, the courts have done a remarkable job of pointing out that majorities are not always as sensitive to minorities as they should be. Minorities want sincerity, clarity and equality from their fellow citizens. Unfortunately, they have sometimes had to go to court to assert their right to equality. As Canadians, we have to recognize that our majorities have not always responded appropriately. Equality rights are still important to us.

Even today when we come to equality rights, I think of the enormous progress we have made as a country as a result of this dialogue and as a result of the fact that we now have the courts playing a more active role.

I look at the legislation that has just been brought to this House by the Conservative Party, Bill C-49, in which the law states, boldly and bluntly, that there are two kinds of refugees. There is no longer one class of refugees. There are now two classes of refugees. The second class consists of those people who come over somehow in a boat or come over in a group. They are now to be rounded up and thrown into a detention centre for as long as a year, without much of a heretofore, without a review, without anything at all. They are to be abandoned without rights, without recourse, and to be treated completely differently from a separate class of refugees, whom the government has now designated in a different way.

We do not think that it is only up to the courts to deal with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We think it is up to Parliament to deal with it, and that is why I am very proud that our party has said that we will not support Bill C-49, because we believe that it is fundamentally wrong in the way in which it treats people, and in particular because it does not pass any test with regard to this question of rights and freedoms as set out in the charter.

I would also say that were it not for the charter, were it not for the interpretation of that charter by the courts, the first nations people, the aboriginal people, the Inuit and Métis people of the country, would be far worse off than they are today. We tried, in Charlottetown, to move the political understanding forward that would allow us to recognize rights that had not previously been sufficiently recognized, but I have to say that that political effort was not successful.

What we also know is that the courts have in fact played the role that we would want them to play in any society, in saying to the majority, actually, you have to pay some attention to the treaties that you have signed. You have to recognize that once you say in your charter and your Constitution that you are going to recognize treaty rights and that you are going to recognize existing rights, then the courts have a responsibility to determine what those existing rights are. They have taken that responsibility and taken that role, and they have taken it seriously and well.

I am very happy to express my support for this important motion from the member for Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe. Canadians believe it is important to strengthen one of the basic tenets of our political life. We have a Constitution and a Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I do not think that this should be a partisan issue. Unfortunately, some people still say they do not accept the entire Constitution, the notion of a Charter of Rights and Freedoms or the courts' responsibility to protect citizens' rights. Protecting citizens' rights also means that the courts must sometimes make difficult decisions, but at the same time, that is one of the reasons we need these protections.

Of course, there are going to be difficult cases. Of course, there are going to be requirements sometimes whereby our institutions of justice and, indeed, even our institutions of law enforcement, have to conduct themselves in a certain way in order to get to a certain result, but these are the protections that we require.

These are not protections for any one group of people. These are protections for all Canadian citizens and they are necessary and fundamental to our sense of what the phrase “the rule of law” means. The rule of law means respect for the law as that law is interpreted by Parliament, the courts and the legislatures, and that is the debate and discussion that we need to have.

What we do not need is the continued fraying of the overall commitment to the importance of rights and freedoms. That is something that strikes at the heart of our national life and the very heart of our situation.

For example, when I hear the Prime Minister say he agrees that there are serious flaws in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and that there is no review or accountability mechanisms for Supreme Court justices, what exactly is he saying? It is a fundamental principle of our democracy that the courts are independent. There is no review or accountability of the courts because that is what takes place in a dictatorship.

Political review or political accountability of the courts is something that happens in countries that have no respect for the rule of law. The independence of the judiciary is a foundation of the British Constitution. It is a foundation of the common law Constitution. It is a foundation of what we need to believe in and return to our belief in as a country.

Therefore, when people in the position of prime minister say there are serious flaws in the charter, what are they? They should tell us what they are. Is it due process the Prime Minister does not like? Is it the freedom of the press he does not like? Is it the freedom of speech he does not like? Is it recognizing the treaty rights of aboriginals? What is it?

When he talks about a review or accountability mechanism for the courts, what exactly is he talking about? Is he talking about judges who have to kowtow to the wishes of the government because he is not happy with what they do or say? This is what strikes at the heart of our Constitution. This is what strikes at the heart of our freedoms. It is time for this kind of loose rhetoric and talk to come to an end and it is time for all of us to recommit ourselves to the Canadian Constitution, to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and to what that means for all of us.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Battlefords—Lloydminster Saskatchewan

Conservative

Gerry Ritz ConservativeMinister of Agriculture and Agri-Food and Minister for the Canadian Wheat Board

Madam Speaker, I listened attentively to the member's speech. Of course, it seemed to go around in circles and not really land where I think he wanted it to land.

I am wondering how he and his party square the circle when they are so insistent on Canadian rights for economic refugees who are landing on our coast uninvited, as it were, at the same time his party stands in the way of implementing marital property rights on reserve. How does he square that circle?

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Madam Speaker, whenever I listen to a Conservative talk about going around in circles, I am always reminded that when one has two right wings, it is impossible to go in any other direction.

The member has equated two things that have nothing to do with one another. First, the hard fact about Bill C-49, which the member cannot get around, is that the government has for the first time in Canadian history decided that it is, by itself, going to designate what kind of refugees people are as soon as they land on the shore.

The member opposite has no idea who those people are. The member opposite has no idea whether they are economic refugees, political refugees or any other kinds of refugees, and neither do I. The determination process for that is independent of the government, independent of the minister and independent of me. The government is the one declaring who is an economic refugee and who is not, not me.

The question with respect to what are the rights or not on reserves is an important issue because it touches on the issue of the connection between equality rights and the aboriginal rights that are set out in the charter, which is a completely separate issue.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Madam Speaker, unlike my Conservative colleague, I listened attentively to my hon. colleague. I want to congratulate him on his speech which was full of power, full of respect for fundamental freedoms and liberties in this country. It reminds us of the absolute profound importance of rights, such as the right not to be detained or arrested without reasonable grounds, the right to be informed of the charges against one upon arrest, the right to retain and instruct a lawyer without delay. These are words in our Constitution, in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. These are the very rights that were violated en masse this summer in Toronto.

Members of the Conservative government shamefully refused to acknowledge that nor did they care to do anything about it. Instead, they chose to slough it off by saying that people should file a complaint with the police complaints commission. They abdicated their role as parliamentarians to help protect, preserve and enforce constitutional and charter rights of citizens of this country. They act as though it were none of their business. They act as though it were a police complaints commission's job to stand up for Canadians' constitutional and charter rights. It is shameful.

My hon. colleague is from Toronto and witnessed what happened this summer. Would he care to comment on how what he saw this summer squares with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms? Does he have any comment on the government's decision so far to not care one whit about those violations?

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Madam Speaker, I do not think anyone who saw what happened or who listened to the comments and explanations for what took place in Toronto at the events surrounding the summit could come away without being deeply troubled.

I do not know how the federal government can avoid its share of responsibility, because everyone in this chamber knows, and if they do not, they should know, that all of the activities of the police with respect to the conduct of how they would manage crowds and demonstrations was determined under the leadership of the RCMP and under the leadership of the Minister of Public Safety's department.

This was not some local decision taken by the Toronto police or by the Ontario Provincial Police. These decisions were made from a command headquarters at which the RCMP and the minister's office and people reporting to the minister were involved every second of the day. It is impossible for the federal government to say that it has no knowledge or responsibility in this matter and that it had nothing to say at all about how decisions were made and how certain incidents were handled. That is what is troubling me, that we do not have the sense of responsibility that should be widely shared.

The other thing I want to reinforce is the comment that was made by the member for Vancouver Kingsway's colleague who said that it is wrong to argue that it is only the courts which have responsibility for the charter. Every single one of us has a responsibility for the charter.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Peterborough Ontario

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Canadian Heritage

Madam Speaker, it is interesting. The member quoted Julian Fantino's book, Duty, but I wonder if he has actually read it. I wonder if he has actually considered some of the things that are in it, some of the heartbreaking stories that are in there from a person with 42 years of service in policing, someone who has stood up for victims and communities, someone who has looked in the eyes of people who have committed true acts of evil and watched them walk on technicalities. That is difficult. Julian Fantino has done that and he stood up for communities.

I want to say something about this debate today. This is not a big issue in my riding and I doubt it is a big issue in the member's riding either. At a time when economies in Europe are failing and everyone is talking about the economy and jobs and things that Parliament should be focused on, the Liberal Party is talking about what happened in 1982. I do not think that is a platform, but maybe the member can relate why we are having this debate today when people at home have real concerns about how they are going to get jobs, pay their bills and so forth. The member does not seem to have those concerns at all on his mind.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Madam Speaker, actually, I have those concerns on my mind all the time and I think the member for Peterborough knows that. I think he also knows it is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time. Sometimes when I listen to the answers from the members opposite in question period, I am not always sure that is the case.

With respect to the member's first point, I can only say that I have known Julian Fantino for a very long time. I have read his book. There are parts of the book that I agree with and there are parts of it that I disagree with.

I disagree very strongly with Mr. Fantino's points about the charter, not because the charter has not at some times been interpreted in a way that affects trials and the outcome of some trials, but because I think it is fundamentally wrong to take those outcomes, which could have happened without the charter, and I can give lots of examples where the courts could well do these things without the charter, and then say that it is the charter that is the problem. That is really where I disagree, because that begins to undermine the public sense that the police and others fully and deeply appreciate their obligation to conduct themselves under the Constitution and under the rule of law. That is where I disagree with Mr. Fantino.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Madam Speaker, I enjoyed the intervention from the hon. member for Peterborough. I found it kind of ironic. He said that we should be talking more about jobs and the economy. I spend a lot of time in this House debating, and 70% of what we talk about in legislation is about crime and punishment. What is it going to be? It is either that or the other thing. As a matter of fact, the member mentioned the importance of talking about jobs. If I truly believed the government's press releases about the jobs it is creating, it would not be much of an issue. For some reason the government keeps saying that jobs are an issue. Great, let us get on with it. Nonetheless, I digress for only a moment.

I would like to ask my hon. colleague about a program that was claimed as a model by the United Nations. It is the court challenges program, of which I am a big fan. Unfortunately, it went by the wayside under the current government.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Madam Speaker, on the court challenges program, it has been fundamental to our approach as Liberals to say that not only do we support the charter and the Constitution, but we also support the need for people to have access to the courts so they can have their rights enforced and the minorities who have been abandoned by the majority have a chance to have their say in court.

This program is of fundamental importance to minority groups and language groups alike because it enables them to go to court to ensure that our governments respect their rights. It is very important for people to get this support from their government. I await the return of a Liberal government so that we can reinstate a program to guarantee access to the courts.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Madam Speaker, I would like to begin by thanking the hon. member for Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe for moving the motion on the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the responsibilities of the Minister of Justice in relation to the charter.

I did find it somewhat unfortunate that the member went on to impose a vitriolic attack on our federal government. It really was inappropriate because we are talking about the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, a document that is so vital to the future of our country, defending the rights and freedoms of Canadians. It was unfortunate that he chose to make a general attack on government policy.

That said, it is important to highlight that the charter is one part of the framework at the federal level for the protection of human rights in Canada. In addition to the charter, Canada also has the Canadian Bill of Rights and the Canadian Human Rights Act as important human rights instruments. I would like to spend some time articulating how important those documents and instruments were.

In 1960 the Conservative government of John Diefenbaker passed the Canadian Bill of Rights, the first federal legislative enactment to specifically set out basic human rights for Canadians. The Bill of Rights set out a wide compendium of guaranteed rights and freedoms.

The Bill of Rights provided in section 1 that there existed, and continue to exist, without discrimination on the grounds of race, national origin, colour, religion or sex, the following rights and freedoms, and members should keep in mind that this goes back to 1960: the right to life, liberty, security of the person and the enjoyment of property and the right not to be deprived of them except by the due process of law; the right to equality before the law and equal protection of the law; freedom of religion; freedom of speech; freedom of assembly and association; and freedom of the press.

In section 2 of the Bill of Rights, there were further rights articulated: the right to be protected against arbitrary detention and cruel and unusual treatment or punishment; the right to be presumed innocent, which all of us take for granted today; the right to be informed promptly of the reasons for arrest, to retain counsel without delay and the right to habeas corpus; and the right to a fair hearing in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice for the determination of rights and obligations.

Section 2 also provided that only if an act of Parliament specifically stated that the act would operate notwithstanding the Bill of Rights could these rights be abrogated, abridged or infringed.

Again, this goes back to 1960 under a Conservative government that first took seriously the enshrinement of a code of rights for Canadians.

The Bill of Rights is not a constitutional document. It is an act of the federal Parliament.

However, even with the adoption of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in 1982, the Bill of Rights continues to have importance and significance. For example, the guarantee of a right to a hearing found in the Bill of Rights is actually broader than the equivalent right in the charter.

As well, there are some rights protected by the Bill of Rights which are not protected by the charter, for example, the protection of property rights. I know there are many Canadians who have asked for property rights to be enshrined in the Constitution. Section 1(a) of the Bill of Rights provides for the right of the individual to the enjoyment of property, and the right not to be deprived thereof except by due process of law.

The Bill of Rights was the earliest federal statute for the protection of human rights in Canada. It has long been regarded as the pioneer effort in safeguarding the civil liberties of Canadians. The Bill of Rights has continued relevance and importance in Canada's human rights framework.

The Canadian Human Rights Act is another part of the federal framework for the protection of human rights in Canada.

The Canadian Human Rights Act was enacted in 1977. The purpose of the act is to ensure equality of opportunity and freedom from discrimination in federal jurisdictions. The idea behind the Canadian Human Rights Act is that people should not be placed at a disadvantage simply because of their age, sex, race or any other ground covered under that act. The statute applies to the federal government, federal crown corporations and also federally regulated industries such as banks, airlines and railways.

The Canadian Human Rights Act prohibits discrimination in the areas of employment and the provision of goods and services on a large number of grounds, including race, national or ethnic origin, religion, sex, sexual orientation and disability.

While there is a certain extent of overlap between the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, there are also important differences, and the Canadian Human Rights Act plays an important and distinct role in the human rights framework at the federal level.

Let me turn to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. That charter is an important part of Canada's constitutional fabric.

In 1982 the parliament of the United Kingdom enacted the Constitution Act, 1982. Part I of that enactment was the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I note that in 1982, one month after the Charter of Rights and Freedoms became the law of Canada, I graduated from law school. Members can understand that in the previous three years we as law students spent a lot of time discussing the advisability of a charter, what a charter would entail and what protections it should provide to Canadians. I remember those days very well.

The charter has continued to be the salient human rights document in Canada.

Canada, along with many other countries in the world, had become a party to a number of international human rights treaties in the 1970s, for example, the United Nations International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. With the coming into force of the charter of rights in Canada in 1982, Canada was able to give domestic legal effect to the international human rights treaty obligations that Canada had undertaken. In addition, the charter was inspired by various international human rights treaties.

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms was proclaimed in force on April 17, 1982, 115 years after Canada first became a nation. The charter added to and expanded on the scope of protection offered by the Canadian Bill of Rights. The charter sets out the fundamental rights and freedoms of individuals and groups in Canada, and it is an integral part of Canada's Constitution.

The values and principles enshrined in the charter are essential to the promotion of a free and democratic society. These values include respect for the inherent dignity of the person, commitment to social justice and equality, accommodation of a wide variety of beliefs, respect for cultural and group identity, and faith in the social and political institutions that enhance the participation of individuals and groups in society. Essentially, the charter is an expression of the basic Canadian values that all of us hold dear.

The framers of the charter made it very clear, when the charter was enacted and brought into force, that the intention was not to create new rights; rather, it was simply to codify rights and fundamental concepts that have existed in Canadian law since 1867 and before that as part of the British common law tradition.

Concepts such as presumption of innocence, the requirement of proof beyond a reasonable doubt and the independence of the judiciary are all things that we have taken for granted for many years. The charter codifies these. These concepts have parallels in legal systems of other free and democratic societies, such as in the bill of rights of the United States of America.

The charter is an important component of the government's many legal obligations and a significant consideration in the conduct of its public affairs.

I would like to provide more elaboration on how the charter functions and the protections it affords to Canadians.

Section 32 of the charter provides that it applies to federal, provincial and territorial legislatures and governments. Thus the charter protects individuals from violations of their human rights and fundamental freedoms by government.

Essentially what is happening is that the charter regulates the conduct of governments across Canada vis-à-vis its citizens. This is something that is held up as a role model around the world, and many other countries have now emulated our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Indeed under section 32, the charter has been interpreted to apply to the full range of governmental activities, including administrative practices of officials and the acts of the executive branch of government as well as to enactments of Parliament or the legislatures in the provinces and territories.

Section 52 of the Constitution Act, 1982 came into force at the same time as the charter. This provision sets out a particular remedy that is available to Canadian courts. It provides that the Constitution is the supreme law of Canada and that every law that is inconsistent with it is, to the extent of that inconsistency, of no force and effect. In other words, if a court finds that a law violates charter-protected rights, it can rule that the law has no force. As well, section 24 of the charter enables courts, if they find that an individual's charter rights have been violated, to either exclude evidence from a trial or to grant the individual other remedies that are “appropriate and just in the circumstances”.

With regard to the specific rights and freedoms protected by the charter, the charter includes protection of the following: fundamental freedoms, democratic rights, the right to live and seek employment anywhere in Canada, legal rights, equality rights, the official languages of Canada, on which there is a whole section, minority language education rights, Canada's multicultural heritage and, finally, aboriginal peoples' rights.

It is important to note that the rights and freedoms in the charter are not absolute. They can be limited in order to protect other rights or important national values. Section 1 of the charter says that the charter rights can be limited by other laws, as long as those limits can be shown to be reasonable in a free and democratic society. Our Supreme Court of Canada has actually stated that a limit on charter rights is acceptable if the limit deals with a pressing and substantial social problem and the government's response to the problem is reasonable and demonstrably justified. Therefore a law that limits a charter right is nevertheless valid if it conforms with section 1.

The charter guarantees certain fundamental freedoms for everyone in Canada. These fundamental freedoms, which are set out in section 2 of the charter, consist of basic rights that Canadians have taken for granted for most of our country's existence. Since 1982, the charter has given these freedoms constitutional protection. They cannot be abrogated by the federal legislative branch. These fundamental freedoms include freedom of conscience and religion, freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of association.

Given that the media are an important means of communicating thoughts and ideas, the charter also protects the right of the press and other media to speak out. When we look around the world at other countries where there is no freedom of the press and we see the oppression that often takes place and the violation of human rights because the media cannot speak out, we know how valuable that protected right in our charter is.

All of these fundamental freedoms allow Canadians to create and express their ideas, gather to discuss them and communicate them widely to other people. These activities are basic forms of individual liberty and are important to the success of a democratic society such as Canada's.

While very important, as noted, these freedoms can be subject to certain limitations. For example, laws against child pornography and propaganda have been determined to be reasonable limits on freedom of expression.

Another category of rights set out in the charter is the democratic rights provided for in sections 3 to 5 of the charter. These rights include the right of every Canadian citizen to vote and to be qualified to run for office in our national Parliament and in the provincial legislatures.

It also requires that the legislatures have a term of no longer than five years, unless two-thirds of the members extend the term during a time of real or apprehended war, invasion or insurrection, and the requirement that Parliament and the legislatures sit once each year. In other words, our constitution and the charter limit the term of this Parliament to five years. That is the maximum length this Parliament can sit before we have an election.

In other words, the democratic rights sections of the charter contain rules that guarantee Canadians a democratic government and embody the basic democratic principle that a government must explain its actions to the people.

The mobility rights of Canadians are also dealt with in section 6 of the charter. Subsection 6(1) states that every citizen has the right to enter and leave Canada. Extradition laws place some limits on these rights. Subsection 6(2) provides that citizens and permanent residents have the right to move and take up residence in any province for the purpose of gaining or making a living. Subsection 6(3) makes it clear that provinces may decide to give social benefits, such as welfare, only to persons who have lived in the province for a certain period of time. I think most Canadians would find that to be a reasonable limit. They may also pass employment laws that require workers to have the necessary qualifications to practise their profession or trade.

In addition, subsection 6(4) allows a province that has an employment rate below the national average to create programs that favour its own residents.

Moving on to sections 7 to 14 of the charter, those sections set out the legal rights that apply to people in Canada. The legal rights protect us in our dealings with the justice system. They ensure that individuals who are involved in legal proceedings are treated fairly, especially those charged with criminal offences.

Section 7, for example, guarantees the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof, except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice. The right to protection against unreasonable search or seizure is protected by section 8 of the charter. The purpose of this section is to protect a reasonable expectation of privacy, something Canadians hold very dear.

Section 9 of the charter provides for the right not to be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned. Certain rights are applicable when an individual is arrested or detained: the right to be informed promptly of the reason, the right to retain and instruct counsel without delay and the right to habeas corpus.

When a person is charged with an offence, section 11 of the charter guarantees the following rights: to be informed of the offence, to be tried within a reasonable time, not to be compelled to be a witness, to be presumed innocent until proven guilty in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, and to the benefit of trial by jury where the offence is punishable by more than five years. The right not to be subjected to cruel and unusual treatment or punishment is protected under section 12. The right not to have incriminating evidence from a previous proceeding used in evidence against the person, except in prosecutions for perjury, is guaranteed under section 13.

Section 14 affords the right to an interpreter when the person does not understand or speak the language of the proceeding or if that person is deaf.

Moving on to section 15, that section protects equality rights. It is a section that makes it very clear that every individual in Canada, regardless of race, religion, national or ethnic origin, colour, age, sex or physical or mental disability, is considered equal. This means that governments may not discriminate on any of these grounds in its laws or programs. The courts have held that section 15 also protects equality on the basis of other characteristics. As we can see, the charter is an amazing document and we need to guard it.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Madam Speaker, by outlining the different sections of the charter, the member has illustrated the fact that not only did an incredible amount of work go into the charter, but collective wisdom as well as to what we could do as a country and society and why the charter is so important as a cornerstone of both our democracy and our Constitution and why it needs to be respected.

What the hon. member spoke of is something that all Canadians can be very proud of and respectful of: the fundamental rights that are there for all of us. Whether in times of need or for the most vulnerable in society, all of us need the protections provided by the charter. The charter is indeed a cornerstone of our democracy and what makes Canada the greatest country on earth.

In fact, the charter has been used by different countries around the world to emulate how to develop their particular charters of rights and freedoms. What worries me is when we start attacking and demeaning these fundamental Canadian institutions. We can be respectful of others with whom we might have differing opinions. There are differences of interpretation in how people apply the charter, and maybe we can be critical of how people have interpreted the charter, but overall, all of us as members of Parliament have a duty to respect one of the greatest cornerstones of our institutional democracy and our Constitution.

I would invite my hon. colleague to affirm that this is in fact the case and that we should work together in solidarity to support and honour one of the great landmarks of Canadian history, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Madam Speaker, my colleague will have found from my remarks that I take no issue with the Charter of Rights. It is one of the defining instruments under our Constitution.

I listened very carefully to his question and he referred to being able to have respectful disagreements. Presumably if there are those in society who want to take issue with the charter, that is also protected under the charter. That does not reflect my view, but there are some in Canadian society who would challenge certain aspects of the charter. They may challenge the efficacy of the charter or they may want it to be strengthened, and that is a healthy discussion to have in Canada.

That is why we have the protection of free speech, freedom of expression, in our charter. It is exactly for that very purpose, because democracy is dynamic. Democracy is something that has to be defended at all costs, and the charter does that. The charter protects the very right to disagree with policies of government, of non-governmental organizations, and of other players and stakeholders in our society.

So when there are those who want to discuss the charter and say they disagree with it, the charter in fact protects their right to speak out on that. I will defend that right while, at the same time, also being free to disagree and say I have worked with the charter for many years as a lawyer and have studied it as it worked its way through the legislatures when I was in law school.

I hope that answers my colleague's question. It is a very important document for Canadians.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Madam Speaker, I know my hon. colleague is a lawyer, as he pointed out, and knows that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms stands as an important bulwark to protect Canadian citizens against the state. It regulates governmental actors.

Section 2 states:

Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: ...

(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press;

(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and

(d) freedom of association.

Of course, there is also the legal right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure, the right not to be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned, and the rights on arrest to be informed promptly of the reasons and to retain and instruct counsel without delay.

In Toronto this summer, hundreds of Canadians were deprived of those very rights. We know that. Journalists were assaulted and forcibly removed, violating freedom of the press. Canadians who gathered peacefully to express their opinions in public, exercising their right to assemble and express themselves, were arrested and detained. Canadians were not told the grounds for their arrests and were not allowed to contact lawyers. I wonder if my friend is concerned about that.

He says he stands up for the charter and believes in it. Does he stand up for the rights of those Canadians this summer to have their rights respected, and will he join with the New Democrats in calling for a public inquiry to find out why there was such a mass violation of charter rights?

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Madam Speaker, unfortunately I think my colleague from Vancouver Kingsway is engaging in some historical revisionism by suggesting that all of the protest was peaceful at the G8 and G20 summits. That certainly was not the case. In fact, any Canadian who was watching television at the time knows there was violence to the extent of that there were some firebombs and numerous stores were vandalized.

Yes, it is true that there were some individuals there who wanted to protest peacefully. There were others who were simply intent on rioting and causing a disturbance.

It is up to the courts to determine whether the charter applies. I would not be surprised if some of those who were protesting in fact were intending to do it peacefully. We know there were others who were extremely violent.

Rather than engaging in the details of these specific arrests, because those issues are before the courts right now, what I want to do is encourage the member to understand that the charter is an instrument of balance. It is about protecting individual rights and balancing those against the right of the state to protect its citizens. It is all about balance.

Opposition Motion--Charter of Rights and FreedomsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Abbotsford for that wonderful speech on the history and chronology of the charter. Supplemental to my friend from Vancouver Kingsway, the hon. member, who chairs the justice committee, talked about balancing the rights of society to protect itself versus the rights of individuals who want to protest peacefully.

I wonder if the member might comment on section 1 of the charter, the reasonable limits on freedom of expression and freedom of peaceful assembly and how that might interplay in this debate between the rights of protesters versus the necessities of police action.