House of Commons Hansard #45 of the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was industry.

Topics

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

9:20 p.m.

An hon. member

Half of it, wasn't it?

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

9:20 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Half of it. Let us take a look at the LMDAs that he is talking about. Let us talk about flexibility in the EI that he is talking about, or lectured us about, and this is the best part--

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

9:20 p.m.

An hon. member

Is there any?

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

9:20 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

I am not quite sure, but let us see if he has got his own punch-line for this one. The LMDAs that were negotiated, one that was recently done in Newfoundland as I mentioned earlier which the minister brought up, they are job creation projects, and in that they got topped up EI. They do not get extended EI, which is what they want in this particular situation, like if we have labour trouble in Newfoundland and Labrador. It does not provide the very necessity of it.

Let us talk about EI in and of itself. There are currently three pilot projects that exist that will expire in the month of October. On behalf of the government, can the member stand in the House and assure us with respect to each and every one of those three programs, particularly the one about the best 14 weeks and getting rid of the divisor rule, that those programs will continue beyond October to provide harvesters, plant workers, crew members, these people the right to keep their standard of living?

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

9:20 p.m.

Conservative

Rodney Weston Conservative Saint John, NB

Mr. Chair, I will say that I did enjoy the question from the member opposite. To see the passion in the way he asked the question, I really enjoyed it, I really did.

I was pointing out very sincerely that there is flexibility built into the programs that our government and former governments, as my colleague across the way actually pointed out for me as well, have maintained, because we understand. Governments have understood in the past and continue to understand that this is a unique situation. This is an industry that does require flexibility. This is an industry that is not the same as the traditional forestry industry. It is not the same as the traditional manufacturing industry. There are certain circumstances that need to be taken into consideration.

I merely pointed that out. I pointed out the fact that the province of New Brunswick, the province that I live in and that I am most familiar with, has been taking advantage of this situation and trying to use it for political gain in what seems to be an election year.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

9:20 p.m.

Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission B.C.

Conservative

Randy Kamp ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans

Mr. Chair, that was a great speech. I think all of us on this side appreciated it, so I want to thank my colleague from Saint John for that.

He told us a little bit about how the labour market agreements will be of assistance to fishers. Nobody is denying the fact that many will find themselves in some difficult situations this year. I just wonder if he could also tell us about some other efforts that our department is making in order to reduce the operating costs, provide flexibility and so on so that we could help them on that side as well.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

9:20 p.m.

Conservative

Rodney Weston Conservative Saint John, NB

Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for the opportunity to talk a little more about some of the flexibility that our government has built into, whether it be the regulations around the industry or around the program funding that has been provided by the government. There are many different aspects to that flexibility.

I am remiss for not mentioning our economic action plan. This past year we saw record funding and investment throughout Canada. There has been a fund that I know all the members in the House have been very pleased to take advantage of. It is called the community adjustment fund. It is another fund that is in place to stimulate the economy and for communities that are hard hit and hard done by to go forward and prosper. This is a great opportunity to bring that to the attention of the House.

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9:25 p.m.

South Shore—St. Margaret's Nova Scotia

Conservative

Gerald Keddy ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Trade

Mr. Chair, I cannot believe that the opposition is here for the debate this late at night and cannot get up on a question or comment for the hon. member. He has such great answers that I guess they are bereft of anything more to say.

My question is quite simple. I know that he is concerned about the situation with crab and for New Brunswick fishermen. It is a dire situation and we all understand that, but there are no easy answers. The Liberals would seem to think that if they give money to their friends anytime they get in trouble, maybe they will vote for them again, but the reality is we have a difficult situation with the crab. The minister is on the right track.

Would the member like to add anything to that?

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9:25 p.m.

Conservative

Rodney Weston Conservative Saint John, NB

Mr. Chair, I can understand why my hon. colleague's view is jaded in that sense, because it has been the practice in the past to use these things for political gain. It is understandable that people would question that in the past, but today we have a minister who has made a decision with a sound basis to sustain the industry.

It is a very noble and understanding decision that she has made with that basis in mind. She wants to ensure that this industry continues into the future, that the resource is there for many years to come. I commend the minister for that.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

9:25 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Mr. Chair, I listened with great interest to the debate and I noticed the extreme differences in quotas over the last number of years. We have experienced that in Newfoundland and Labrador of course. We know what happens when fishing quotas get out of whack. We have seen extreme measures taken with the cod, for example, in Newfoundland going back to 1992.

The federal minister for Newfoundland in those days, Mr. Crosbie, was very successful in achieving programs to alleviate some of the problems that existed there. I am wondering why we have not seen that kind of program here.

What is happening to the science budget in the Department of Fisheries and Oceans that we cannot have more accurate information on an ongoing basis? There has been severe criticism of the reductions in the science program, and I wonder if the member could comment on that.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

9:25 p.m.

Conservative

Rodney Weston Conservative Saint John, NB

Mr. Chair, I want to caution members of this House from making the comparison between the collapse of the cod fishery in Newfoundland and what is happening today in the snow crab fishery. It is not the same situation whatsoever.

The point has been made several times this evening that the crab fishery is a cyclical fishery. It will rebound, but measures have to be taken to preserve the stocks, to preserve the biomass, to ensure that the future of the industry is sustainable. The cod was certainly a different situation altogether.

I want to go back to the decision the minister made and the fact that the minister did consult with industry and with the provinces. This was not a surprise to anyone. For members opposite to even suggest this evening that this was a decision that was taken in haste, that this was a decision that was made without any thought or consideration for the fallout, it is not appropriate. It is not acceptable whatsoever.

This decision was made on a sound basis with the same methodology, the same science that has been used for many years. The decision was made based on that. The minister took the decision with the best interests of the industry at heart.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

9:25 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Chair, I would like to begin by thanking my colleague from Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte. For several weeks now, he has been urging the government and the House leaders to give us this opportunity to talk about the Atlantic fishery, especially recent changes to the snow crab fishery. These changes resulted in significant cuts to the TAC: 63% in one year. My colleague from Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte has an important responsibility as our party's fisheries critic. For some time now, he has been asking the government important questions about why it waited so long to take action before this crisis started. His dedication to the fisheries has given us this opportunity tonight to talk to our colleagues about some very important issues.

It is important that the minister is so attentive to the issue this evening. I have enormous respect for the office of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, not only because my father was the first person to occupy it when the department was created in 1979, but because I think all of us who care about the fishery and about coastal communities on all of Canada's coasts understand the important responsibility the man or woman who occupies the office holds in the livelihoods of thousands of families and coastal communities that depend on her decisions and the decisions of the government.

With a lot of sincerity, the minister's interest in this issue is important to all of us. The tone of tonight's debate tells us that there is in fact a lot of common ground on all sides of the House. Members who have the privilege of representing regions that have a large concentration of fishers, who benefit from the economic activity in the fishing industry, understand that we need to work together to try to arrive at solutions that are reasonable and progressive.

I hope that in tonight's brief discussion I can offer my views on some possible solutions to what is a very serious crisis in the east coast shellfish industry.

I mentioned the significant cuts to the TAC. There is no doubt that a single huge cut like that poses a major challenge not only for fishers, but also for those who work in processing plants. Plant workers are often the unintended victims of these cuts.

In the past, my colleagues have often talked about trying to accommodate the seasonal nature of this work, which is completely dependent on the crab fishery, an unstable industry. One strategy involved employment insurance.

However, we believe that the government can do more to support plant workers by recognizing that employment insurance is critical to the economic survival of workers' families and their communities. However, the government also needs to recognize that economic diversification in coastal regions is critical. There are literally thousands of families that depend on jobs related to processing. The major reduction announced by the minister will have a devastating effect on these families because they will not be able to accumulate enough weeks of work to qualify for employment insurance. Even people who do qualify do not usually get enough weeks to make it to the next season.

One of the great challenges in managing an industry as difficult as the snow crab industry is the whole question around the sharing of the quota. The government made a decision to reduce, in a dramatic way, the quota this year. My colleague from Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte has been very articulate that it should have done so in a more measured way. It should have begun the reduction earlier and not waited so long for one sudden drop as we saw this year.

However, if we are to be fair with the government, we need to recognize a decision the minister made, which is certainly important for my constituency. Her decision was to maintain the permanency of the access given to the non-traditional fishers. These are inshore fishermen in my riding and others along the coast, including in the minister's own riding. The minister and I are separated by the Northumberland Strait. From my house in Grande-Digue, New Brunswick, I can see the lights of Summerside on a clear evening. Therefore, the minister knows, as well as I do, the importance of the lobster industry in communities like she and I represent. That is why it is important to thank the government and recognize that its continuation of a previous government's decision to maintain a permanent sharing arrangement is very important for the stability of this industry.

The lobster industry in my constituency has been very affected over recent years. Fishermen, for example, around the Confederation Bridge, those who fish out of Cape Tormentine, Murray Corner, even Petit Cap, tell me that one of the real challenges for them has been the Confederation Bridge. Various surveys around siltation, tidal patterns and water flow have indicated that the lobster grounds in and around the bridge have been severely affected. These fishermen are forced to go much further north to set their traps at a time when fuel prices can be prohibitive. Landings have come down dramatically. As members know, even from some communities, for example, in Kingston, Ontario, the lobster landings have gone down to a price that is also very low. This has led to serious economic hardship. That is why the government missed an occasion to do something important around the lobster licence retirement program.

The minister understands there is considerable pressure from fishers on both sides of the Northumberland Strait to look at measures that will reduce the fishing effort. That will help fishers who are basically eking out a very modest living and who often are unable, for example, to employ a helper on a boat for an extended period of time. My colleague from Saint John referred to some of the changes made with respect to groundfish in Newfoundland and Labrador.

In area 25 the lobster fishery is in that kind of crisis. This important effort to reduce the fishing effort through a licence retirement program is serious. Rather than asking the fishermen's union to borrow money from a provincial government and use crab revenue, which is dramatically diminished, as a way to finance an inadequate plan, the government could have put up public money. It could have successfully given the younger fishers a chance for a more prosperous future and allowed older fishermen to retire from the industry with some dignity.

That has been missing in the government's plans. The crab crisis makes it worse. At the end of the day, all of us on this side want to stand with those fishing communities that are going through a very difficult time. We want to support the plant workers through active measures and employment insurance that meets their needs. However, we also recognize that an immediate licence retirement program offers the best hope to answer the critical need in the lobster fishery that I represent. I hope the minister will see fit to implement such a plan.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

Egmont P.E.I.

Conservative

Gail Shea ConservativeMinister of Fisheries and Oceans

Mr. Chair, I have one question for the hon. member.

First, I point out that he has talked a lot about the lobster fishery. The problem with overcapacity in the lobster industry is not something new. It is has been around for some time. I have heard about it as long as I have been a politician, which is probably about 10 or 12 years now. There was plenty of opportunity to do something about it in the past number of years.

A $50 million pot of money has been set aside for sustainable building plans for all these lobster fishing areas. If rationalization is important to that LFA, then it can use some of those funds to go toward that program. These programs are totally made in the lobster fishing area itself and by the lobster fishermen.

I know he has been close to the crab fishery in New Brunswick for quite a while. New Brunswick is where the highest concentration of area 12 crab fishers reside. Could he give the House a little history of the economic health of the crab fishery? How has it performed since it started?

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

9:40 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Chair, the minister outlined the $50 million fund that she announced in either Esquiminac or Neguac in my province of New Brunswick. There is a problem with that fund. At the time, I thought that if the government was allocating money for sustainability in the lobster fishery, on the face of it, that made sense. We had asked the government for a program like that. Groups like the Maritime Fishermen's Union, which represents the inshore fishermen in my area, had been calling on the government to do that.

I have spoken to a number of fishermen in my constituency, fishermen the minister probably knows, from Murray Corner and Cape Tormentine. They are people like Gary O'Hanley and Bernie Briggs, president of the Botsford Professional Fishermen's Association, who the minister will probably know from her time in the provincial Government of Prince Edward Island. They are people like Steward Murray, who sadly passed away this year. These fishermen had recognized the need for a rationalization program, as the minister noted.

The problem was the program was designed so nobody could qualify. The $50 million announcement on a wharf in the constituency of Miramichi on a summer afternoon was a great announcement. Unfortunately the fishermen who had applied under this program came to see me this winter and spring. They had these nice letters explaining why they did not qualify. They did not have a certain percentage of their income that was dependent on lobster, or they were 3% less than the cutoff or their landings had not gone down by the requisite percentage.

At the end of the day, these fishermen are in very difficult economic circumstances. The government designed a program that was no doubt well intentioned, but unfortunately missed the target. It announced a $50 million fund. Out of a total of $50 million, $15 million is allocated and only $8.5 million gets out the door. It is all taxable money. The government recuperates a considerable amount of that money.

At the end of the day, though it may have had all the best intentions in the world, the government, with respect, missed the target. The fishermen who I represent were very frustrated by their inability to access that fund. I wish there will be more flexibility and more money to actually achieve the objective next year.

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9:40 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Mr. Chair, the member for Beauséjour rightfully reflects the views of so many in this industry. There are many who want to remain, who want a viable, strong industry to support them, their communities and the families around them, and there are some who do want a reasonable opportunity to exit and pursue other opportunities.

The minister echoes those same comments by suggesting that there is an opportunity through a $50 million fund to build up a plan, to be able to think through some future financing, to potentially put in a restructuring plan down the road. The problem is that there are two ways to restructure the fishery. One is through a compassionate, responsible, well-ordered rationalization plan through public funds. The other is through the stark, deep, dark, very painful experience of a sheriff's order for foreclosure. That is the other way this is going to occur. The problem is that with the economics of this fishery right now, far too many are facing the latter rather than the former.

With the economics of the fishery, prices being as low as they are, with market demand still slumped due to the global economy and the slump in market prices, this industry is not healthy. The economics of the industry are reflected in the economics of the individual enterprise. They will not be able to sustain themselves to participate in an organized, reasonable restructuring plan as proposed by the minister down the road. What they are going to see is the sheriff's office coming with a foreclosure statement.

Will the member for Beauséjour reflect for us all what the experience has been with the lobster income support program? There was $15 million allocated and $8.5 million ultimately spent. We initially reacted when the announcement was made, saying $15 million would not be enough. We reacted when the eligibility criteria were announced, saying $15 million would never be spent. The latter is exactly the truth. In a time of deep, dark crisis, only half the money was spent.

Will there be a lobster industry? Will there be an opportunity for people to participate in an organized, responsible way to rationalize themselves in this industry, or will foreclosure statements be posted on their doors?

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9:45 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Chair, again the member for Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte has zeroed in on exactly the problem. If one is cynical, one could think that the government actually thought the rationalization plan should be trustees in bankruptcy, sheriffs arriving with forfeiture orders, taking people's leased trucks on the backs of tow trucks and seizing assets of a fishing enterprise.

I cannot pretend to know every region of the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence, but in my own riding, and the fishing industry is obviously very important to me and the communities, I can say that there are a number of older fishermen, people who probably do not have debts on their boats and have paid off the debt they originally had when they bought their fishing enterprise, who are basically participating marginally in a viable fishing enterprise.

Some of them cannot afford helpers and many of them are in fact fishing alone. The captain or the skipper goes out on his own on a boat, which represents some safety challenges. These are often older fishermen.

The reason they are in this industry is that the government has not allowed them to find a way to exit the industry. It does not have to be an exaggerated, indefensible, federally funded buyout program, but there has to be a reasonable way to remove these people from the industry, give them some dignity in retirement and allow the younger fishermen who want to stay in the industry or become professional fishermen to have the prospect of earning a reasonable living, to be able to borrow money, improve their boats or buy new ones, to perhaps get into other fishing activities in order to diversify their enterprises. None of that is possible because of the economic circumstances in which these people currently find themselves.

The minister knows and cares about the fishing industry. I have no doubt that the minister, who has very considerable knowledge about the Atlantic fishing industry and has served in the government of her province of Prince Edward Island, as I say, has exactly the same fishing circumstances as I do on the other side of the Northumberland Strait. She understands and cares about this industry. I have no doubt about that.

What I think is unfortunate is that central agencies in her government, perhaps the Minister of Finance or the President of the Treasury Board perhaps do not know what a wharf looks like, and at the end of the day she was not able to get an effective plan that I am sure she wanted for her constituency, for mine and for the important fishers of this industry. I hope to work with her to continue the progress that can be made to support these communities.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

9:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Mr. Chair, we live in a fantastic country where a member of Parliament from Alberta can get up and engage in a debate on the snow crab fishery and the shellfish industry in Atlantic Canada.

I really enjoy the time I spend with my colleagues here tonight, most of whom are on the fisheries committee.

In spite of some of the rhetoric we hear and some of the drama we see from members in the House, I think fishermen, whether they live on the east or the west coast or whether they are involved in the freshwater fishery across our country, can all take some comfort in the fact that, while parliamentarians appear to disagree for political reasons, we generally all agree that the state of the fishery is so important to all the affected communities that we often come together and form a good consensus on the policies that affect so many Canadians' lives.

My background is that I am privileged to have had an opportunity to go to university and get a zoology degree in fisheries and aquatic sciences. I have worked as a professional fishing guide. I have worked as a fisheries technician for the Alberta fish and wildlife department. I have worked as a conservation officer and as a national park warden enforcing the Fisheries Act.

I will keep to my notes on the facts pertaining to the scientific end of things because that is where I am most comfortable in having my discussions.

I would like to provide some important context about the science that lies behind the snow crab quotas allotted by Fisheries and Oceans Canada to the licence holders.

Canada relies on scientific data to make informed decisions about the management of all stocks, whether they are freshwater stocks, finfish stocks or shellfish stocks, and that definitely includes snow crab.

It is impossible to determine the precise number of snow crab in the Gulf of St. Lawrence at any given moment, just as it is impossible to determine how many walleye there are in Pigeon Lake in Alberta. We do not know exactly how many there are. They do not have passports. They do not register. We do not even know how many Canadians are living in Canada. We even guess at that.

Simply put, no perfect method exists to estimate the exact size of any wild stock. Science uses wildlife management. Species management relies on a variety of techniques to make our best estimate. Our best hope is to apply those scientifically proven methods in a consistent and meticulous manner to provide the best estimate of abundance with the technology presently available and to continually strive to improve sampling and analytical methodologies. That is precisely the approach followed by Fisheries and Oceans Canada in the snow crab fishery.

Prior to the 1980s, fishers were the primary source of data about the health of snow crab stocks. At that time fisheries officials would review log books and reported landings to estimate the size of the snow crab stock.

These methods documented sizeable swings in the annual snow crab harvest in the southern portion of the gulf. From its humble beginnings in the mid-1960s, the harvest grew to exceed 33,000 tonnes in 1982, then dropped to 13,600 tonnes in 1987, and fell below 9,000 tonnes three years later. Since then landings have continued to fluctuate significantly.

In 1988 scientists introduced a new assessment method, which was based on conducting a census of snow crab abundance using an annual trawl survey. While the method has been significantly refined over the years, it still adheres to the same rigorous scientific protocols. Here is how it works.

Following the close of the fishery each year, a crew of scientists travels to a series of 300 sites in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. The sites are chosen carefully, and samples are gathered from all four areas where commercial fishers harvest snow crab. Each snow crab is accurately measured and counted and returned to the sea.

The scientists aim to measure the relative abundance of various categories of crab. For example, it is important to know the number of mature females, which are not retained in the commercial fishery, as well as the commercial-sized and undersized males. This information enables researchers to estimate the current number of commercial-sized males, those with a carapace size of at least 95 millimetres, and it also enables researchers to predict the number of crabs expected to mature and recruit to the fishery in the next few years.

All of this data is then subjected to sophisticated analysis using geo-statistical methods. This analysis enables scientists to estimate, in a relatively accurate manner, not only the overall size of crab stocks, but also how the stock is likely to change in the short term.

Tracking of annual fluctuations in snow crab stocks is crucial for two reasons: one, because the estimates from this year influence decisions about catch quotas for future years and, two, because snow crab populations tend to fluctuate according to a relatively predictable cycle.

The reasons for this regular fluctuation are not completely understood, although each cycle tends to last approximately 10 years.

The 2005 fishery marked the peak of the most recent cycle, and the stock has been in a declining phase since that time. Given this reality, many stakeholders were understandably concerned about the results of the latest sampling.

This year, as is always the case, data from the trawl survey along with the analysis were subject to a science peer review. In February stakeholders of a number of groups participated in this peer review, and DFO scientists and fisheries management officials were joined by their counterparts from the provinces, the fishing industry and first nations communities.

Scientific experts in the field of crustacean stock assessment from within and outside DFO were also invited. During the last peer review, an expert from the United States National Marine Fisheries Service participated.

The review confirmed what many already suspected, that the stock is still in its declining phase. The commercial biomass of snow crab in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence was estimated at 26,100 tonnes for the 2010 fishing season. This represents a 46% decline from the figure for the 2009 fishery. The review also indicated that the stock is not expected to start its increase before 2012.

Although these facts may be unwelcome, they must not be ignored. Five years ago, during the peak of the cycle, the estimated biomass exceeded 84,000 tonnes and the 2005 quota for the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence was set at 36,100 tonnes. Each year since then, both the biomass levels and the annual quota have fallen gradually. Last year the estimated biomass was 48,000 tonnes and the quota was set at 20,900 tonnes. Anyone familiar with the snow crab fishery had every reason to expect a further reduction this year.

The sampling, analysis and review processes are all reliable and sound. The methodology is well established, credible and dependable. The analytical models are compliant to scientific standards for correlating resources and geography.

For more than 20 years, Fisheries and Oceans Canada has relied on these estimates to set appropriate quotas. Fisheries management groups around the world follow similar processes.

The same information is used for much more than setting catch limits. Stakeholders rely on the data to develop and implement their own fishing strategies. Many commercial fishing groups, for instance, use the data to determine how much time and effort they should invest in crab harvesting in a given season and which areas they should target.

Sharing data is the essence of modern science. Science is increasingly at the centre of fisheries management not only in Canada but also around the world. The reason for this is simple. Basing management decisions on scientific data offers the best way to conserve the ocean's renewable resources in an era of rising demand for those same resources. In our quest for sustainable fisheries, science remains our best ally.

The guiding principle of sustainable fisheries management is caution. The precautionary approach, as it is called, acknowledges that while our understanding of fisheries and ocean habitats is limited, the consequences of long-term overfishing are all too familiar: the collapse of fish stocks and crises in coastal communities have resulted.

The truth is that science offers the best hope for understanding the world we live in and for achieving a sustainable snow crab fishery now and well into the future.

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9:55 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Mr. Chair, I appreciate that the member talked about scientific research because that is what I wanted to ask about.

I am hoping that Fisheries and Oceans will put more research money into the north Pacific to deal with the dramatic decline in the north Pacific salmon.

However in relation to the east coast, I appreciated the statistics the member gave on the snow crab.

I wonder if the member could let us know how much research money has been put in over the last two years and in this year's budget for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, for the east coast. Second, could he give a similar story on lobster to the one he gave on the crab?

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9:55 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Mr. Chair, I do not need to look up the numbers in the budget estimates for the hon. member. He can do that.

We just had department officials before the committee answering questions pertaining to the estimates, so those numbers are all publicly available. I do not have them off the top of my head. I do remember, however, in the committee that there were not very many questions from the opposition members directed at the officials regarding scientific spending. I can only assume, therefore, that the members of the opposition are satisfied with the money that is spent on the fishery.

I do not quite understand what he is asking so far as the lobster fishery is concerned because it is a different fishery altogether. We have seen a change in the science when it comes to the escape mechanism in traps and so on. These things were actually rejected when science was put forward saying to the fishing community that they needed to increase the minimum size.

It is no different than when I was a fisheries technician. We looked at slot sizes for walleye. I worked for several years on a walleye minimum size experiment. We collected the information. We tagged walleye. Doing a market capture experiment is the way we would estimate the biomass. With that experiment we would run into a lot of frustration with anglers and we would run into frustration with commercial fishermen.

Years after this decisive action was taken as a result of the information we gathered, we have much more productive fisheries now in Alberta. We have much larger fish. We protected the reproductive stock.

That is what we have done with the lobster as well. We have increased the carapace sizes in the various lobster fishing areas to make sure that the right size lobster is being harvested, that there is enough biomass there to reproduce. The same thing needs to happen with the crab fishery as well. We need to have enough females there to ensure that the stocks can continue on in the future.

We have seen a decline. It seems completely normal to me. The year 2005 was the peak year and on a 10-year cycle that would mean that we are about halfway through the very bottom of the trough. It is not expected that we are going to come up, as I said in my speech, until 2012, which means that a competent minister, such as the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans of this government, has to take the measures that are appropriate for conserving the fish stocks for the future.

ATLANTIC SHELLFISH INDUSTRYGovernment Orders

10 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Mr. Chair, the member for Cape Breton—Canso as well as the member for Beauséjour and myself have been complimentary of the minister's decision to ensure that those who are new entrants to the southern gulf crab fishery are not penalized by their date of entry into the fishery.

The minister took a very deliberate decision. She basically upheld a decision by the former Liberal government, recognizing the legitimate place of new entrants into the fishery. She said that the new entrants would be guaranteed a stable position within the snow crab fishery in the southern gulf not only for this year but for five years straight right up until 2014.

From our side that seems like a very responsible position to take. We applaud her for it.

I would like to ask the member, should that principle also apply with other fisheries as well? There has been some suggestion in the northern shrimp fishery that the minister may actually turn herself around in this and apply a last-in first-out principle instead of actually saying that we will institute a fair increase, fair decrease principle in terms of allocations.

There is some concern in the industry that the minister may in that instance choose a last-in first-out instead of using the model that she used for the southern Gulf of Saint Lawrence crab fishery, the model used for her own constituents, which is regardless of the fisher's date of entry into the fishery, there is still a place and the fisher will still share a proportionate share based on the previous percentage of the quota.

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10 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Mr. Chair, given my vast experience on the east coast because we seem to travel there as a committee with the annual crisis in some aspect of the Atlantic fishery, whether it is lobsters, last year, or small craft harbours, the year before, I look very much forward to hearing from Atlantic fishermen. I certainly enjoy their hospitality and the insight I get out there when I actually talk to the people involved in the industry.

My understanding is that the shrimp industry is quite a bit different insofar as the policy, as far as whether it is last-in first-out or whether it is what currently happens with the crab fishery or the lobster fishery in their allocations. Each of those fisheries is quite a bit different.

We could have a debate on this if the hon. member proposes that we should investigate this and see if there should be a change in the policy, but right now the agreement has been well known by the shrimp fishermen. It is a different industry. The policy on how those fishermen are treated as far as their licences are concerned is completely separate and different than the crab fishery. If we want to have a debate on that some day, I would be more than happy to.

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10 p.m.

South Shore—St. Margaret's Nova Scotia

Conservative

Gerald Keddy ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Trade

Mr. Chair, I have two questions if I have time. My first question is quite simple. I have been in the House for a number of years. I represent a tremendously strong fishing area in South Shore—St. Margaret's. Part of the challenge of trying to regulate the fisheries for the current minister, the previous minister and ministers before that has been the fact that we do not have a modern fisheries act.

We tried in the last Parliament to modernize the Fisheries Act. Of course, the Liberals preached doom and gloom. They swore that would be the end of the fishery as we know it. So this is the reality for the shellfish industry. We have a 19th century act trying to control a mid-20th and late 20th century resource, primarily lobster and crab, for an export market in the 21st century. How do we square that and make that all work? Because that is what we inherited from the Liberals. That is what they refused to change.

How will we ever, under the existing act, have a fishery that works in the 21st century?

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10:05 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Mr. Chair, we have a lot of legislation in this country. It was good legislation at the time based on what we had. For example, the same thing could be said for the Navigable Waters Protection Act, which had not been amended since 1872, the original date that legislation came into effect.

I have to give credit where credit is due. The previous minister, minister Hearn, had a lot of courage in a minority Parliament to bring forward the Fisheries Act. Unfortunately, we never had an opportunity in two Parliaments. It was hoisted and we never had an opportunity to debate, go across the country, talk to fishermen and engage them on this.

Unfortunately, department officials, the science and ministers, along with the government are held to account by the laws that are passed. I and most of the members of the House would argue that the Fisheries Act of 1868 might be a little bit past its best before date. It has worked relatively well--

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10:05 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

There's no amendment.

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10:05 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

When we take a look at some of the issues that are facing this country now, and I do not know why I am being heckled on this. It does not make any sense to have a question regarding the Fisheries Act because it is something that we all agree needs to be looked at.

There are recent court decisions in British Columbia where constitutional battles are taking place right now deciding who is responsible for what. All of these things are the result of governments, whether provincial or federal, doing the best that they can dealing in the context of old legislation. It is time that we actually put aside the partisanship that we see so much when it comes to this issue and look for the best interests of fish, the best interests of Canadians, and have an intelligent debate to modernize the Fisheries Act.