House of Commons Hansard #131 of the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was sentence.

Topics

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

An hon. member

The Royal Bank of Canada

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Jim Maloway NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

The Royal Bank of Canada. There is a responsibility for the financial institutions to keep track of their deposit holders. They knew he was in the investment business.

There is a responsibility there. The Royal Bank should have been chased for its role and complicity in the loss of this money. I hope that the victims followed up on this.

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Mr. Speaker, I do not think anyone in this House will ever accuse that member of not being entertaining.

He has taken us from Manitoba to California to New York. What stuck out was the fact that apparently the NDP members are taking their marching orders from the experience in the United States, from Newt Gingrich, from Edwin Meese, and that is wonderful. It is almost a Republican-NDP coalition. A new coalition is taking root right here in the House.

I want to ask the member a more serious question. Earlier today it appeared that the Liberals dropped a bombshell on this House by, at least by implication, suggesting they do not believe this legislation should be retroactive. In other words, it should not apply to the Earl Joneses of this world.

I am wondering if the member could clarify for Canadians, right here in this House, whether his party is opposed to the retroactivity provisions, or will it make this provision retroactive to ensure Earl Jones does not get out after serving one-sixth of his sentence?

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Jim Maloway NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, I just want to complete my last thought on the previous question. Evidently the victims of Earl Jones have actually sued the Royal Bank. I wish them all success. I understand the case is still pending. I have good news for them and that is that in the United States there have been a number of Ponzi schemes where the victims have actually recovered a lot of their money.

In terms of what the member asked me, unlike our questions about providing cost estimates for this crime bill and other crime bills and getting absolutely no answers, the member is demanding an answer from me and I am actually going to give him the answer.

The answer is that at the end of the day it will be resolved by the courts. That is how this issue is going to be resolved.

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to speak to this bill. Since I spoke to the motion regarding the disposition of the bill yesterday, there have been some developments. However, I do want to take this opportunity to add some points which I did not have time to do yesterday, given the 10-minute limit.

I would like to focus on the democracy argument.

In terms of the Canadian democracy, we have an executive branch, which is the Prime Minister and the cabinet, which essentially, on a day-to-day basis, runs the government. The job of the Parliament of Canada and the members of Parliament who are not sworn into cabinet is to keep the executive branch in check. The executive is supposed to report to somebody. It is not a dictatorship. Yet, what we have here is a circumstance where the executive branch of government is attempting to circumvent the democratic process by invoking closure on a bill that is not urgent by anybody's definition of urgency.

The Conservatives had the opportunity last fall, with respect to Bill C-21, to approve Liberal amendments in the justice committee which would have eliminated the one-sixth accelerated parole review. This would have prevented Mr. Lacroix from being released, which is the reason we are here today, because of the public outcry about it. It would have prevented Mr. Lacroix, if they had voted for it, from being released. However, the Bloc and the Conservatives voted to defeat those amendments in the fall of 2010. Now, because of the public outcry over the release of Mr. Lacroix, we are here in an undemocratic environment with the executive branch of Canada's government attempting to stop Parliament from asking questions and from getting the information that is required. Those pieces of information that would be eliminated are important.

I am on the public safety committee and I have the notice for tonight's meeting. Because of the closure motion, the bill will be voted on this afternoon. Everybody knows that the bill will pass, because the Conservatives and the Bloc have teamed up. The Conservatives like to use the word “coalition”, so I will use it. They have teamed up to form a coalition on this piece of legislation to stop the democratic process.

It is not the first time either. In the past, the Conservatives attempted to reach a coalition deal with the Bloc to defeat the Martin government. They run their ads about coalitions. It is hypocritical for them to do that. Canadians should know this is something they have attempted to do before and they are doing it now with the Bloc. They are circumventing the democratic process.

In terms of the information that we must have, we need to know the costs that are involved. We will be asking for the costs.

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

An hon. member

Who is hiding what?

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

A minister just asked off mic, “Who is hiding what?” What is the government hiding in terms of the cost?

We will go to the public safety committee tonight after we have the vote on the bill, which will be successful, based on the coalition between the Conservatives and the Bloc. We will be sitting for four hours, until 11 p.m. or later. The way the motion is worded, if the amendments and study are not done within that period of time, the bill will be reported back to the House without any amendments.

They have already told the committee, “It does not matter what you do. It does not matter what you say. You have a certain amount of time and if we do not like what you are doing, the bill will come back to the House and will become law. So you are wasting your time anyway”.

We can go to the committee. The Conservatives can filibuster or there could be amendments, or no amendments, or whatever. We all know the bill will come back to the House. We all know that the coalition between the Conservatives and the Bloc will rush this bill through the House of Commons without proper consideration.

What are the costs? How much will this cost? They will not say. Tonight, in the public safety committee, I will be asking those questions. I will be asking: What will this cost? Why are we doing this? Why are we doing this now? What are the social implications of changing this law at this stage?

Maybe this is a good thing to do. Maybe the legislation as it is currently written should not be changed. Maybe the legislation should be changed slightly. The point is, Canadians will not have the opportunity to have their elected representatives provide that sober second thought in committee and in Parliament through proper debate, because the executive branch of government, supported by the Bloc, has invoked closure. In essence they are stopping the elected representatives of the Canadian people from properly considering this legislation in circumstances where there is no urgency.

I challenge the government. Why did it not do this for other measures? Where was closure invoked when it came to the economic crisis in Canada? We have had the worst economic situation in Canadian history since the depression. Where was closure invoked to help the Canadian people? Where was closure invoked for EI changes?

In March 2009 a motion was passed by the Parliament of Canada calling for EI changes to help Canadians weather the storm. The government ignored the motion, of course, which also is anti-democratic. There have been a number of instances. Paul Kennedy, Ms. Keen and a whole bunch of people who do not agree with the government are fired or their terms are not renewed, which is all anti-democratic. It is a pattern with the government.

We are in a situation where we will examine a piece of legislation under a gun tonight. We already know it will pass. We already know that amendments will not be passed. We will be faced with this without even knowing what we are doing.

If a closure motion is supposed to be for urgent matters, why have the Conservatives used it for this and only this and only after they refused to pass the amendments the Liberals suggested last fall? Those amendments would have prevented Mr. Lacroix from getting early parole. They could have done that then, but they did not.

After people found out they did not do that and Mr. Lacroix was released, now it is urgent to deal with the situation and invoke closure and anti-democratic processes. Once again, if the Conservatives like doing this and they say it is urgent, why do they never do it on economic issues? If they like to use an anti-democratic process to help Canadians, to protect Canadians, to take care of Canadians, why have they never used this when people are suffering, are unemployed, lack health care and pensions?

How about the Nortel pensioners? Let us talk about them for a moment. When they lost their pensions and medical coverage and did not get help in terms of bankruptcy proceedings, why did the Conservatives not invoke closure to help them? The Conservatives in the Senate were defeating that legislation because they did not care.

Where is the closure on other issues? It is not used on anything else. There are urgent matters that Canadians need to deal with. Rather than spending yesterday and today debating closure on a non-urgent piece of criminal justice legislation, why are the Conservatives not dealing with economic issues? We have the largest deficit in Canadian history. Why were we not discussing that yesterday and today? The cost of living is going up exponentially. Why are we not discussing that and how to help productivity?

We have the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs which have been replaced with temporary, part-time jobs, or as I referred to yesterday, McJobs. Why are we not discussing job creation plans?

We experience embarrassment on the international stage. There is the situation with the UAE and the environmental conferences where we have received Fossil of the Year awards two years in a row. Why are we not discussing environmental issues on an urgent basis?

If the Conservatives love this anti-democratic procedure, there are many issues on which closure could have been invoked. However, they are invoking closure as a form of damage control. They are trying to tell Quebeckers and other Canadians that they are upset that Mr. Lacroix was released early, but they are not, because they had a chance last fall to stop that. They could have accepted the Liberals' amendments in justice committee, as I mentioned, but they refused to do that. So, what is the urgency of this situation?

In terms of what has occurred since the comments I made yesterday, I now have a letter from the Quebec bar. I will read this letter into the record. It is addressed to the Minister of Public Safety, and as a member of the public safety committee, it was forwarded to me. It is with respect to the bill and it reads as follows:

The Quebec Bar would like to state its opposition to Bill C-59 concerning accelerated parole and conditional release, which you introduced in the House of Commons on February 9.

I will pick up on that point. February 9, 2011 is when the bill was introduced. This is not something that has been languishing for two years.

The earlier bill, Bill C-39, died with the prorogation. We had two prorogations that wiped the slate clean of all legislation that could have been invoked and in law earlier. Without those two prorogations, this would have been addressed and that law would have been amended a long time ago, rather than continually reintroducing the same bills in the House of Commons. It is an anti-democratic part of the pattern of the government.

Going back to the letter, it states:

Firstly, the Bar is opposed to the retroactive effect of the proposed legislation. Like the Association des avocats en droit carcéral du Québec, we would like to point out that some people chose to plead guilty after considering the advantages of accelerated parole. Changing the sentencing rules after these people have made their decisions and their choices is unfair and opens the door to constitutional challenges.

Forget for the moment whether one agrees with that paragraph or not. That is not even the point of today's closure vote and the debate that took place yesterday. The point is there is an issue that needs to be discussed. We need experts to speak about whether the retroactive provisions are constitutional according to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Constitution of Canada.

Yes, they do constrain the government. Conservatives may not like to think that, but they do. Experts should be testifying before the committee as to whether they are constitutional. If there is any reasonable doubt as to whether the provisions are constitutional, they should be either left out or there should be a reference made to the Supreme Court of Canada to let us know if they are.

It is absolutely unfair for the government to force people who have agreed to plea bargains to hire lawyers, spend money on legal fees, go to court and eventually seek a final ruling from the Supreme Court of Canada, if they can afford it, just to find out whether these provisions are constitutional. The minister has an obligation to provide an opinion and consider whether these provisions are constitutional, but how can that be done in a responsible manner when the government has invoked closure, there has been no debate and no witnesses have testified.

Based on the individuals on the witness list for tonight, which we have not heard from yet, I would be very surprised if testimony will be provided during the four hours allowed for the debate. I would be very surprised if anybody will have the expertise to comment about the constitutionality of these provisions.

In essence, the government is saying that it does not care and that it is going to invoke closure. It knows it made a mistake. It should have passed the Liberal amendments last fall that would have prevented Mr. Lacroix from being released. However, it did not do that, neither did the Bloc. They both voted against the amendments. Now it is trying to do something about it.

We are in a situation now where we will have a very short debate with no sober second thought and no proper consideration. Even if there is and even if the committee does not agree, it will come back within four hours anyway. It will be reported back to the House and then further amendments can be filed until 3 a.m. It sounds very urgent, but there is no urgency. The urgency was last fall when it was ignored and the Liberal amendments were defeated.

If this were urgent in those circumstances, why has the government not done the same for economic matters? The people listening at home, those who have lost their jobs, or their houses or cannot afford their mortgages or pay for their kids' various extracurricular activities, might ask why the government has not invoked closure on some type of economic legislation to help them.

Why is one-third or more of the government's entire agenda “law and order” when all empirical objective experts have said, for a repeated number of years, that crime rates have gone down? Why is the government trying to make people think that crime rates are going up and that it is taking steps to protect them when that is not what is occurring?

Today I had the honour of reading a statement into the House. Another example is Bill C-5, the international transfer of offenders act. Last week the Minister of Public Safety stood in the House of Commons during question period and criticized the Liberal Party for opposing provisions of that legislation, which deals with the transfer of Canadians incarcerated abroad who seek to apply to be transferred back directly to a Canadian prison. It is from prison in a foreign country for a crime committed in a foreign country against a foreign citizen to a Canadian prison. The transfer, in most cases, makes sense if people are in a foreign country that does not have proper rehabilitation. In some jurisdictions, I believe even in the United States, foreign citizens cannot get rehabilitation, so they will get nothing.

Since most of these people will be released back into Canadian society anyway, by definition it would be good for them to receive rehabilitation. However, a lot of them will not get it unless they are transferred back to Canada.

A key point is this. If they have committed a crime in a foreign country to a foreign citizen but they are not transferred back to a Canadian prison before their sentence has been completed, then when their sentence is over and completed in the foreign jurisdiction, because they have a Canadian passport, they can come back into Canada, free and clear. They will have no criminal record. There will be no ties upon them in terms of our parole system. It will be like they never committed a crime.

Imagine some of the serious crimes that could have happened abroad and they were incarcerated for them. There will be no record of it in Canada and there will be no ties on them in Canada if we do not bring them back and put them in a Canadian prison before their sentence expires.

Is that not logical to do? Is that not the best thing to do to protect Canadian safety? However, when that question was posed to the Minister of Public Safety last week, rather than answer it, he attacked. That is what the government does.

My colleague from Ajax—Pickering is the recipient of almost daily personal attacks. He asks questions in the House of Commons in a logical and lucid manner, seeking to get intelligent responses, facts and figures, but the government attacks him personally, trying to turn the channel and not responding to its shortcomings in this legislation.

When the Minister of Public Safety was asked the question last week on the international transfer of offenders act, which once again makes perfect sense for the protection of Canadians, his response was to say “You are not thinking about Canadian victims.”

Let us think about that for a moment. He says that we are not thinking about a Canadian victims. This is about Canadians incarcerated in a foreign country for a crime committed in a foreign country to a foreign citizen. In these circumstances, we have asked the government why those people would not be brought back to ensure they have rehabilitation. If they are brought back early, they will then have a Canadian criminal record, they will go through the Canadian parole system and we will have some controls. With that stem, we can ensure we minimize the risk they will commit the same harm to Canadians living here.

Members can check the record, but his response was that we were not thinking about Canadian victims. What is this? It is rhetoric. There is no logic to it. Why can we not get honest responses that deal with the issues? Why can we not have a reasoned debate rather than mudslinging and personal attacks on our Liberal critic for public safety?

I will finish this letter from the Quebec Bar Association. It states:

Secondly, the Quebec Bar believes that before this bill is passed, it should go through the same process as all legislation, including a thorough study of the advantages and disadvantages of the current legislation and an impact study of the proposed changes. The findings of these studies should be made public so that there can be an informed debate on this issue.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Once again, that was a February 15 letter from the Quebec Bar addressed to the Minister of Public Safety, asking for sober second thought, to follow democracy, to consider this and make a responsible decision. Conservatives should not try simply to do something because they failed to pass the Liberal amendments last fall, with the help of the Bloc, which would have stopped Mr. Lacroix from being released.

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Jim Maloway NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, we help the victims by not having victims in the first place.

The member for Random—Burin—St. George's spoke about the need for revamping the financial services rules in our country. I and others have dealt with that issue in a number of different ways over the last several months.

Does the member agree that the real exposure is to not have people take advantage of other people in the first place? People are able to do that because they are able to get around what few rules there are. In fact, we should have tougher rules so when people are holding themselves out as investment dealers, they actually have to be registered as investment dealers and under the supervision and responsibility of the banks with which they do the transactions.

I understand there is an outstanding law suit. The victims are hoping to recover some of their money from the Royal Bank.

In the United States a lot of the victims have recovered money and at the end of the day perhaps the losses are as little as 50¢ or 60¢ on the dollar. That is the proper way to look at the problem as opposed to dealing with it after the horse is already out of the barn.

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Mr. Speaker, absolutely, it makes sense to consider the entire justice bill and legislation with regard to protecting victims in these circumstances. Rather than dealing with early parole provision on an alleged emergency basis and invoking undemocratic closure, why are we not considering mandatory restitution orders, like in the United States or other jurisdictions, so these victims do not have to spend money on lawyers, or go to court and sue companies?

With regard to Earl Jones, where is the money? Why is there not a mandatory restitution order against him now so the victims know they can attach his assets? Why do they have to sue?

The maximum sentence for these types of crimes is 14 years. Why is the law not stronger? Where is the enforcement and investigation moneys that the government could put in? Why is the focus simply after the fact? I will tell the members why. Last fall the Conservatives and the Bloc voted in the justice committee to defeat the Liberal amendments that would have stopped this.

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Brampton West made an excellent presentation of the facts. We will spend a lot of time this evening looking at this bill before we report it back to the House.

The hon. member mentioned Liberal efforts to fix this a couple of years ago, to ensure that those who committed large-scale fraud would not eligible for these provisions. However, could he speak to some of the other things that we have been trying to advocate for with which we have been frustrated? As examples, there are the cuts that have been made to the RCMP task force on white-collar crime. Also, we have been sitting for literally four years in the House with bills killed through prorogation on lawful access, police officers saying that they need to have the tools to go after criminals through electronic media. Yet that bill is nowhere to be seen. This bill the Conservatives want to do in four seconds. That bill they were not interested in doing in four years.

As well, just this morning in committee we heard about cuts that had been made to the national police services that impact things like the sex offender registry and CPIC.

Could the hon. member talk about some of the things we feel need to be done on prevention and some of the other areas the Conservatives have cut that are important in preventing crime and making a difference?

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party believes in protecting Canadians, but there are two ways to do that. The government is focusing simply on damage control after the fact, after defeating the amendments in the justice committee last week, and now trying to change the parole rules.

Where is the money for enforcement? Where is the money for investigation? Why have the Conservatives cut money from the RCMP? Why do they ignore all of this?

My friend is right. Today when we were questioning the RCMP, we heard about further cuts to the RCMP. If we want our national police service to investigate these white-collar criminals and prevent them in the first place, which I would suggest is the first goal, then why are there continual cuts to these police services? Is it because the Conservatives do not have enough money? Then how about the $6 billion in tax cuts?

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON

It is quite interesting to hear the members from across the aisle talk so self-righteously about pieces of legislation they would like to see introduced. If we look at the agenda of the public safety committee, of which the member speaking and the member who previously asked a question are members, we see an agenda that concentrates on trying to dig up dirt on the G20 summit and other issues that bear no relation to the passing of legislation this House puts forward.

In his discussion and self-righteousness about passing legislation, I wonder why, as a member of the public safety committee, he would be supportive of all of this other activity besides dealing with legislation from the House on a timely basis.

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Obviously, discussions on the setting of agendas are in camera. To be honourable, we are not supposed to speak about that in the House of Commons and I am not going to violate that honour.

I will say that when it comes to setting the committee's agenda, we have divided it up approximately 50% between what the government wants to do and what the opposition wants to do. The government does not seem to be happy with that, which I understand because the government is trying to invoke closure and does not have much respect for the democratic process. The government thinks that maybe it should have 75% or 100% of the agenda rather than the 50%, which is actually more than the government's weight in the House of Commons.

Why does my colleague not think that studying something like the G8 and G20 summits is relevant? Does he think Canadians do not want to know why $1.2 billion was wasted in circumstances where London, England, spent $50,000 for security? Why would Canadians not want to know what the witnesses have admitted in saying that the government spent an extra $200 million because it divided the summit between Huntsville and Toronto, which was totally unnecessary?

Canadians have the right to know that the government chose to spend $200 million more by dividing it for political reasons.

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Speaker, we hear the government claim that it has to run this through rapidly. It prorogued Parliament twice and called an unnecessary election in 2005-06 and introduced all sorts of other crime-related bills, giving no priority to this one.

There is other procedural stuff the government could have done. It could have had a Conservative private member's bill brought forward, or even the Bloc could have done that. Yet here we are at the last minute having to scamper about to try to deal with this.

I wonder if the member could comment on other tactics that could have been used that would have been much more democratic than what we are faced with today.

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Mr. Speaker, we could have started with the Conservatives proposing that the public safety committee study this as a topic. They could have done that a long time ago. They could have done that before the first prorogation; they could have done that before the second prorogation. We had lots of time to do that, but they chose not to.

The Conservatives chose to wipe out the legislative slates twice and to reintroduce legislation. There was lots of time this House had to consider criminal justice legislation. However, after they voted against the Liberal amendments in the fall of last year, which would have stopped Mr. Lacroix, the public outcry was so strong that they and the Bloc, who both voted against the amendments, think they have to do something by invoking undemocratic closure.

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Mr. Speaker, after the last speech, I think we have heard it all now. Apparently England hosted the G20 summit and spent $50,000 for security. That was an exceptional feat. Certainly, if they were able to hold a summit and spend $50,000 on security, then yes we do have something to learn from them.

The victims of Earl Jones in Quebec are calling for action. Victims of white collar crime from coast to coast are calling for action. The victims said yesterday that they are petitioning all political parties in Ottawa to stand up for the victims of Earl Jones and to do the right thing and act now and support the passage of Bill C-59. Those parties even include the Liberal Party and the NDP.

Let me quote a letter that one of Earl Jones victims sent to the NDP member for Outremont:

We don't want to see this man out on parole as early as next December.... Please work with the other parties to come to a good conclusion for all of us that have been victims—

The letter continued that criminals who preyed on the most vulnerable members of our society should not be released just to save a buck. Was the cost of keeping criminals behind bars worth it? Absolutely.

That is an important comment, because we have heard a fair bit from members about costs, but that is a comment by a victim who says that in some cases perhaps the costs of reparation are suited to the victims.

I would not mind commenting on a speech from yesterday given by the member for Ajax—Pickering. In his speech he advocated 10 times for keeping white collar criminals out of prison. He quoted former U.S. congressman Newt Gingrich at least four times. He seems fixated on Newt Gingrich. The member made reference to the U.S. State of California six times. Not surprisingly, he mentioned victims zero times. As a member of the public safety committee, I have grown accustomed to members on the other side not referring to victims.

Another thing that I heard from the last speaker and from others is that we need to get this bill to committee, that we need to have a debate, that we prorogued this and we prorogued that. However, the fact of the matter is that all of these bills that would help victims, that would fight crime, that would get tough on criminals, just like the bill we are talking about today, could have been dealt with long ago.

Bill C-39 had its first reading back in June. It was referred to committee on October 20. We could have dealt with Bill C-39 before Christmas, but the coalition was more intent on a witch hunt against the RCMP, the Canadian Forces and the Toronto Police Service, the men and women who go to work every day to provide safety and security to our families, friends and neighbours. That was the coalition's priority. Last fall that was what it spent its time focusing on, when it could have focused on legislation that would have actually done something for victims. We could have got tough on crime.

We can go down the list of bills before the public safety committee right now. Bill C-5, the bill dealing with the international transfer of offenders, has been sitting in committee since the fall. It has been at committee for months. Bill C-17, the bill dealing with combatting terrorism, has been before committee for months as well. All of these bills could have been dealt with and been brought back to the House and been voted on and gone all the way to royal assent long ago. Bill C-23B, the bill to eliminate pardons for the most serious crimes, is still hanging around. No action has been taken. They are dragging their feet. Bill C-39 would have addressed the very issues we are dealing with today, but has evolved into Bill C-59.

When the opposition, specifically the Liberal Party, start talking about this and that and the other thing, these are the facts. They can be checked. They are all on the record.

The fact of the matter is that Bill C-39 could have been dealt with long ago. It was first read in the House in June. As I said, it was referred to committee in October, and because of the coalition's agenda and the witch hunt against the RCMP, the Canadian Forces and the Toronto Police Service, we have not heard much of these bills at all.

The government is trying to advocate on behalf of victims by pushing this agenda forward. However, it is being roadblocked at every turn and every step of the way .

Another point I would like to come back to is the costs. We have heard questions about the costs of this and the costs of that. I would also like to talk about victims. I have never heard anything from the coalition about costs when it comes to bills. This is the first time. It is great to hear. It is enlightening that it is starting to look at costs. It may want to consider the costs of the tax hikes it is proposing. However, that is a whole other topic for debate.

These schemers and fraudsters are not fools; they are highly intelligent individuals who are lacking moral fibre and who prey on their victims. They realize that if they are caught, they will get out. They know that. Therefore, when we look at costs, we have to complete the loop and follow the full circle and realize that once these fraudsters and schemers know that accelerated parole is no longer available for them any more, they will think twice before they go down the path of Earl Jones. There is no doubt about that.

Unfortunately, the coalition does not want to talk about that, as it does not suit its argument. As with everything else that I have mentioned in debate this afternoon, it does not suit its needs. However, the facts are right here; the facts can be checked. The fact is that when someone like Earl Jones or Lacroix knows that there will no longer be accelerated parole available, they will think twice. The next offender out there will take a long hard look and a second thought.

While we are talking about parole, let us take another look at what some of these changes will do.

Here is the current situation. Fraudsters who fleece hard-working Canadians of their savings are guaranteed to have their cases reviewed in advance by the Parole Board of Canada, so they can be paroled earlier than other offenders. That does not sound fair to a victim. White collar offenders, who might have destroyed the lives of hundreds of Canadians, are not in fact even required to apply for parole.

Can one imagine that? We have members here who are against this and are having an issue with it. We are just trying to say that we should have some fairness, that we should think about the victims before we send someone back out into the public.

The offenders do not need to lift a finger when they are trying to get back into society. Offenders who qualify for accelerated parole are not required to notify the Parole Board of Canada. In fact, the current Corrections and Conditional Release Act requires that the Correctional Service of Canada refer the cases of the offenders who are eligible for accelerated parole to the parole board before their day parole eligibility date so that they will be released as early as possible.

The other tragedy in all of this is that we do not hear one word from the victims. They are not allowed to make impact statements as to the effects of these offenders' actions on their lives, even the ruination or vaporization of their 30 or 40 years' of savings for their retirements with their families. That is shameful.

This bill needs to be passed today.

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

It being 5:15 p.m., pursuant to order made Monday, February 14, the time provided for debate has expired.

Therefore, the question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

All those opposed will please say nay.

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

In my opinion, the yeas have it.

And five or more members having risen:

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Vote #182

Abolition of Early Parole ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

I declare the motion carried. Accordingly, the bill stands referred to the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee)