House of Commons Hansard #138 of the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was senators.

Topics

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Order, please. I would like to remind all hon. members that I appreciate people have passionate feelings about this subject, but I would encourage members to pay attention to the Chair and to keep to the time limits so more members might be able to participate in the debate.

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Conservative

Steven Fletcher Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his comments on the tone of the debate. When we talk about democracy, it is important to respect each other's points of view.

The main difference between my presentation and the member's is he probably cannot hear me without the microphone, but I can certainly hear him without one. His passion is very evident.

I did not quite catch what the question was, but everything that needs to be said I have already said. I would call upon the NDP and Liberals, people who love Canada, to help the government ensure that our democracy not only remains strong but becomes stronger. The government has proposed realistic changes to the Senate with regard to term limits and senatorial elections that are doable, realistic without causing a constitutional quagmire and, of course, representation by population in the House of Commons, something that all Canadians support.

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise with pleasure to speak to the motion from the New Democratic Party on democratic renewal. I am disappointed, however, that New Democrats have chosen these leftovers from their 2008 campaign to be debated together, which really goes around the ability to debate either one of them in a substantial way.

New Democrats made their decision to focus on these issues now, in the face of the Minister of International Cooperation not telling the Parliament of Canada the truth, the recent electoral fraud that is before the House, the government's mishandling of the evacuation of Canadians from Libya and the overriding attitude of secrecy of the government, when it is very clear there is no appetite to open the Constitution at this time.

Liberals also believe it is also disingenuous that the motion does not really address the fact that constitutional talks would have to be reopened. In fact, a very expensive referendum would be in no way any more than a polling result in terms of its binding nature.

Yesterday, Chantal Hébert said that the NDP is taking the wrong road on Senate reform. Here is what she wrote:

This article was written before the debate on the motion, which was to have taken place yesterday in Ottawa. The debate was postponed to today.

Two hours might sound like precious little time to devote to a cause that has the sympathy of scores of Canadians including—at one point in the not so distant past—Prime Minister Stephen Harper—

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

I want to remind all hon. members that they ought not use the names of members of Parliament. They cannot do indirectly what they cannot do directly.

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Ms. Hébert goes on to say:

...but in the circumstances it’s really 120 minutes too many.

For many parliamentary scholars, fixing the Senate is one of the top 10 measures needed to address the democratic deficit.

But if the NDP seriously believed the Senate to be a major priority, it would advocate a return to the constitutional table rather than promote a referendum on its abolition.

The upper house cannot be abolished or substantially reformed without a constitutional amendment requiring the support of most and probably, all the provinces.

She also said:

[The] NDP Leader ...argues that a referendum would at least set the stage for a national discussion on the Senate but recent experiences have shown that election campaigns are at best rickety stages for such debates.

Yesterday, the Hill journalist, Dale Smith, also commented that it was disingenuous to go about proposing a referendum without acknowledging that this proposal would mean reopening the Constitution. He went on to say that he had even had some NDP MPs tell him that the Senate did good work, before they launched into a convoluted and unicorn-filled discussion about how they would supposedly replicate that good work in the Commons, reformed by proportional representation. He said that was a much longer story for another day.

However, because it is not an elected body, that somehow negates its usefulness. Never mind the fact that because senators are not electioneering is a big part of why they do their good work. The Supreme Court is not elected either, but vanishing few people dismiss it as an unelected body.

We believe there are many other proposals such as electing the Senate by proportional representation. There are many ways of going about this without having pure abolition. I think a lot of us do believe the Senate, and particularly its committees, has done good work.

In my years in Parliament, I think of the good work done by many of the senators themselves. It is almost like one-person commissioners going out and listening to Canadians on important things, like Senator Yves Morin on science and technology and health research, Senator Keon, Senator Dallaire, Senator Landon Pearson for children's rights, Lucie Pépin, reproductive rights and military families and Joyce Fairbairn on literacy and Paralympics. It was almost like they had a mandate. There are many reforms that could do that in a clear appointment system, which would allow us to fill the second chamber with people with expertise, non-existent in the House at the time.

The Liberal Party favours Senate reform that reflects sound public policy and respects the Constitution. By initiating what are likely to become broad constitutional negotiations with the provinces to deal with Senate reform now is simply not where the current priorities of Canadians are, either in terms of substantive democratic renewal, or the broader challenges on which the federal government should focus.

Right now the Conservatives are moving two bills through Parliament at a snail's pace, by their own design, which really amounts to a piecemeal approach to Senate reform. While we would not completely rule out some form of these proposals on Senate term limits and provincial and territorial Senate elections, the Conservatives have failed to properly consult with the provinces on these bills or with the Supreme Court of Canada on potential constitutional implications.

Abolishing the Senate would require a resolution of Parliament, together with the approval of at least seven provinces, representing at least 50% of the population of Canada. Some constitutional experts have even contended that unanimous consent of the provinces would be required.

As for electoral reform, the issue is in need of serious and comprehensive dialogue with Canadians about whether the current system is, for all its faults, working, and if not, what needs to be fixed or what is to replace it. We believe there is lots of support for various approaches to electoral reform.

Last week in Alberta it was very clear. Many Liberals in Alberta are very keen that their votes count in the House of Commons. Green Party members across the country care about this. I think the federalists in Quebec have been often worried that more people there can vote for a federalist party and they can end up with a separatist majority. This kind of distortion in result is worrying to people and although we welcome that dialogue, I believe it would be premature to start prescribing alternate systems at this time.

The NDP motion restricts the options for reform to a mixed form of proportional representation and direct district elections and this kind of change requires a broad consensus that does not currently exist.

I have to look at today's debate from a practical point of view. To abolish the Senate, as the NDP is proposing, we would have to amend the Canadian Constitution. Constitutional law prohibits the federal government from unilaterally making changes of this magnitude. It would require the support of at least seven provinces, and perhaps all 10 provinces. Constitutional experts do not agree on how to go about abolishing the Senate. It would surely require the approval of at least two-thirds of the provinces with a population totalling at least 50% of the total population of the provinces, or the 7/50 formula.

Four provinces—British Columbia, Ontario, Saskatchewan and Manitoba—have said that they are in favour of simply abolishing the Senate. However, Quebec and the Atlantic provinces have already indicated that they would be opposed because they see the Senate as a means of protecting minorities and regional interests in Parliament.

All this should be looked at in the context of a government report on democratic reform released in February 2007. Participants in focus groups were opposed to major constitutional changes requiring the consent of the provinces out of fear of opening a Pandora's box.

As for proportional representation, the first past the post system being used at the federal and provincial levels offers many advantages, but the results do not reflect the electorate's choices. That is why certain Canadian provinces have tried to change their electoral system.

The citizens’ assembly that was launched in British Columbia in 2003 recommended using the single transferable vote, or STV, system. British Columbia's version of the STV system had seats grouped into regional ridings with multiple MLAs, and the number of MLAs from each party would reflect its share of the votes received. Many women find the STV system hard to accept because it in no way guarantees more female members.

On October 23, 2003, Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty announced the creation of the Democratic Renewal Secretariat, which mandated a citizens’ assembly to examine the electoral system. In May 2007, the citizens' assembly recommended a mixed member proportional system. Under this system, a person votes for a local member and for a party, which is elected by means of the first past the post system. The local member represents an electoral riding, while the votes for the parties, in conjunction with the number of local members elected from each party, determine how many list members each party will receive in addition to its local members. In October 2007, this reform received only 36.9% of the vote, far less than the 60% required to make the referendum result binding.

Commentators said that the result reflected the electorate's skepticism about political parties. The lack of transparency and democracy in every political party deterred people from voting in favour of the referendum question.

It is upsetting today that we are spending the time of this chamber rehashing the NDP platform from 2008, and many commentators have commented that we cannot possibly do justice to either of these and they both require a serious conversation with Canadians, not a top down prescription.

It is also interesting at this time of the electoral fraud accusations from the public prosecutor that we actually look back to the Gomery Commission and ask the NDP and the government of the day, what are they doing about these recommendations that Lawrence Martin reminded us of in his September column? Where is the Appointments Commissioner? Where is the reduction of the size of the Prime Minister's Office and the Privy Council Office? Where is the re-establishment of the integrity of the access to information process, or the vetting system that sees Ottawa officialdom gagged unless given approval by PMO–PCO? Where is some semblance of power to the cabinet or the prime ministerial pledge not to make pivotal decisions, such as income trusts and Québécois nation status, without prior consultation with that body?

What about opening up the executive branch of government to media scrutiny that could include the daily briefings in Langevin Block? What about re-empowering the increasingly cheapened committee system, starting with having government members understand that they must represent the public good, not just their party's talking points? What about reforming question period and the antiquated convention that shrouds the decisions taken by the Governor General in total secrecy?

I have been across the country convening round tables on democratic renewal from Moncton to Vancouver, and not once did any of the participants ask to open up the Constitution. It is the third rail right now in our conversation on democratic renewal. There is no question that people are concerned about the all-time low voter turnout. There is no question that people are concerned about the all-time high cynicism in the population. There is serious concern about negative advertising and the way that the party in power seems to be employing the Republican voter suppression techniques, that all government is bad, all politicians are bad, and it does not matter if we vote. The real voter suppression that attempts to drive down voter turnout actually ends up being good for the Conservative base.

It seems a bit astounding that the bill on increasing advance polls, brought forward by the government last April, has stagnated since April 26 last year. We have seen nothing about trying to increase voter turnout. We think that the youth of Canada need to know that the government would prefer they did not vote, that tenants did not vote, and that we need to be putting in place things that can rectify that.

Across this country, it was very clear that Canadians were reminding us of the Prime Minister's previous comments in the Reform Party foundational document that said that they believe in accountability of elected representatives to the people who elect them, and that the duty of elected members to their constituents should supersede their obligations to their political parties.

On all four topic areas of parliamentary reform, citizen engagement, electoral reform, and party reform, there is no question that Canadians understand there is a lot to be done. The very definition of “good governance”, according to my hero Ursula Franklin, is that government must be fair and transparent, and that it take people seriously. That needs to apply not only here in government and in Parliament but in our riding associations. People will not believe that we will govern that way if we do not conduct ourselves in a better way. That includes abiding by the Elections Act.

The three guiding principles of best possible representation, best possible transparency, and best possible information with which to make decisions, really have been promoted, in each of the places I have been, by terrific round tables on representation, openness, transparency, and information. People came forward with all kinds of ideas about improving Parliament's ability to hold government to account: the idea of democracy between elections, gender balance, aboriginal-provincial-territorial relations, electoral reform, and Senate reform.

The lack of openness and transparency of this government is of huge concern to the people of Canada, as is its refusal to move forward on whistleblower protection and indeed the scandal of the person put in charge of so-called whistleblowers within the government. The role of the media is of huge concern also. The long form census, the ability of officers of Parliament to have their budgets and the legislation to support them, the independence of advisers, the firing of those who do not agree with the government, and the muzzling of civil society are issues I have heard raised at almost every round table.

We know that the government has blurred the roles between government and Parliament with government ads being confused with partisan ads, two prorogations, and the blurring of confidence votes. There is also the fact that the U.K. cabinet office, before the U.K. election, said not to do what Canada had done in terms of threatening an election every time what was asked was not received. It is a travesty.

If we look at the index page of the Conservative Party platform for 2006, the government has done nothing in terms of making qualified government appointments and cleaning up government polling, advertising, and procurement contracts. It is a litany of not.

I believe that we need to work together with all of the parties to actually figure out what we can do together. As the leader of the official opposition has said, “We must be able to put limits on the power of the Prime Minister of this country”.

As Jim Travers has said, “It has taken 500 years to wrestle power from the king and 50 years to get it back into one man's office”.

It has to stop right now The country is appalled at such things as electoral reform, inserting “nots”, the long form census, detainee documents, costs of prisons, and oaths to secrecy. We need to open this up. The democratic deficit is in allowing citizens, MPs and cabinet ministers in.

I am sorry that the debate today is on something not as important as the things that I have just discussed.

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:25 a.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of comments and then a quick question.

The member has tried to put us down somehow because we are bringing back things that we ran on in 2008. Does she not still believe in what her party believed in, in 2008? We do. We still think that there should be a pharmacare program in this country. We still think that CPP should be adequate for people to retire on. We believe the Senate should be abolished and PR brought to the House of Commons. I do not understand how the member thinks that is somehow a problem.

We have heard from a representative of the party who is the status quo apologist-in-chief who said that the Liberals will defend the system because, for the most part, they created it. The Conservatives have just perfected it a little more in terms of making the Senate a great place for partisan activities.

The member also said that they do great work over there because they are not partisan. Is it not interesting that both the existing or former Conservative and Liberal national campaign co-chairs are on the Senate dime? When did they have time to go off and do all these good things?

If we need a committee to do good work, we can appoint it and pay them properly to do it. However, senators have no right having a say in the laws that are made in this country.

My question to the member is this. Will the member acknowledge and admit that the proposal in the referendum in Britain is not proportional representation, but actually a perfection of the first past the post? Will she acknowledge that there is a world of difference between the kind of proportional representation that we and Fair Vote Canada support versus what is happening in Britain?

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Mr. Speaker, I believe that what is being proposed in the U.K. is not mutually exclusive with moving on to full proportional representation. It is a first step. It is not mutually exclusive. I do believe it may be because the citizens have such difficulty letting go of a hard-held wand that we need to do a much better job explaining to Canadians the distortion in the system that is not truly proportional.

I do believe that the member is also absolutely correct. My reflection on the activities of the Senate predated these extraordinarily über-partisan appointments of this Prime Minister in terms of the Roméo Dallaire appointment. This is pure partisan obfuscation of what should be a sober second thought. I do feel badly that the people there, and the people in this House more recently elected, do not understand that this is not the norm.

The normalization of the partisanship is an absolute destruction of this chamber that was designed for hon. members.

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that the member referred to democratic reform as leftovers. She also made a comment about Chantal Hébert who thinks that democratic reform is not important. Chantal Hébert only thinks what Liberals think. If the Liberals think something is important, she thinks it is important. It is unfortunate that she would use Chantal Hébert who also said that this opposition day motion is not important. That is a real shame.

I would like to know how that member of the Liberal Party feels about Senator Raymond Lavigne, who is on trial for allegedly using public money to commit fraud? Could she tell me if that is a good thing for democracy in Canada?

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Before I go to the member for St. Paul's I want to clarify one matter and this has been raised before and that is the issue of identifying specific members of the Senate. There is no hard and fast rule that in this chamber we cannot refer to members of the Senate, but when we move toward the point where we are criticizing individual members or accusing specific members of the Senate of something, there is a tradition in this place that we do not do that in the context that the member of the other place does not have an opportunity to defend themselves.

On this basis I will allow the question and I will go the answer, but I would urge all members to be mindful of this because I anticipate that this issue may arise more times today. Specific reference to the good work in the Senate or people in the Senate is not disallowed, but there is a line somewhere and I would ask all members to be mindful of that when they are asking their questions.

The hon. member for St. Paul's.

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Mr. Speaker, Chantal Hébert is one of the most professional journalists on the Hill. She criticized our government when she felt that we were doing wrong. Today she is criticizing the NDP for bringing forward something that might require constitutional change without acknowledging that in the motion. She is saying there are many other things before us right now that are more important than this debate. This chamber can do nothing about this issue on its own.

Obviously in any assembly one, two or three people will bring dishonour to an institution and that is really what is happening right now with the charges of electoral fraud. It is also very sad to see parliamentarians being brought into that kind of debate and dishonour.

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake, MB

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank you for your caution about making disparaging comments about individuals in the other place despite some things that might have happened to certain individuals in the other place. We want to improve decorum here and we have to stay away from those types of snide comments.

I want to question the hon. member about the whole issue of proportional representation. She has been around the world and has seen other governments that have proportional representation. My experience with it is that it has not been well received.

I was recently in Ukraine where it has gone from direct representation to proportional representation. The people do not know who they are electing because they are people on a partisan list. They are extremely partisan and political when they are functioning in their house. There is no way for those individuals in their electoral districts to contact their representatives because they do not have any representatives. They do not know to whom they should turn to get the assistance they need in dealing with government programs and government issues like we do as members of Parliament here day in and day out.

The hybrid systems like we see in Mexico and New Zealand are creating a double-tiered system. There are directly represented members of parliament who do all their constituency work, do all their committee work, do all their work in the house, and then there are people appointed off a list. The NDP is criticizing the Senate because its people are bagmen and people who have worked in a party headquarters so that is why they get to the Senate. The people on a party list who end up in a country's main chamber are a bunch of political hacks. They are hyper-partisan. Those individuals who do not have work in their ridings cause all sorts of commotion in their house and chamber.

I would like the member to comment on that.

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think the member knows that in the world there are only three countries with pure first past the post systems left, the U.K. which is moving to change it a bit, the United States and ourselves, and that there are systems around the world that work and ones that do not. I agree with the member that the ones where it is purely proportional and no one really knows who their member of Parliament is would not work in this huge country. People do need to know their members' address, where they come from and know the regional issues. We would, I assume, in any electoral reform keep individual riding members.

The debate that we would have with Canadians is about the lack of proportionality and the lack of Liberal members from Alberta when they can get up to 20% of the vote, and the fact that in 1993 the Conservative Party had 20-plus per cent of the vote and only two seats. People understand that there is a distortion and that we need to have a proper conversation with Canadians as to what might work to fix that.

The Green Party put forward an interesting idea which would be that there would be a best losers list, where they would have had to have been a candidate in the last election, knocking on doors and listening to people, that if we were going to get three members from Alberta, they would be three of our candidates as opposed to a predetermined party list, as was the proposal in Ontario. I have to admit that until we move on party reform, we are not going to get the kind of support for electoral reform--

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Order, please.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Quebec.

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, I rise today as the Bloc Québécois critic for democratic reform to speak to the motion moved by the member for Hamilton Centre. The NDP member's motion contains many elements, including the holding of a referendum on the question of amending the Referendum Act in order to abolish the existing Senate and to appoint a special committee for democratic improvement made up of 12 members. The motion also defines how the special committee would operate. Today I would like to focus on point (a), which is the most important and which reads as follows:

the House recognize the undemocratic nature of the current form of representation in the Parliament of Canada, specifically the unnecessary Senate and a House of Commons that does not accurately reflect the political preferences of Canadians;

I would like to examine this point from two angles: the undemocratic nature of the current form of representation in Parliament, specifically the House of Commons, and the unnecessary nature of the Senate. In that regard, we quite agree with the NDP.

Bills on democratic reform have been coming up over and over again for the past few sessions. This time around, we have Bill C-12, which aims to change the formula for calculating the number of members per province to increase the total number of members to 338. The distribution of new seats would be as follows: five more for Alberta, seven for British Columbia and 18 for Ontario. That would give us a total of 338 members, compared to the 308 we have now. This bill, if passed, would have a direct impact on Quebec's weight in the House of Commons, which would drop from 24.3% to 22.19%. Quebec would be even more marginalized compared to its current weight in the House.

It is of the utmost importance to maintain Quebec's weight in the House because Quebec is the only majority francophone state in North America and because Quebeckers are a unique linguistic minority on this continent. Louis Massicotte, a political scientist at Laval University, published an article on federal electoral redistribution entitled “Quelle place pour le Québec? Étude sur la redistribution électorale fédérale”. It is also more important than ever to protect our language and our culture when negotiating free trade agreements. We are talking about the cradle of the Quebec nation, which this House recognized in November of 2006, although, in practice, this means nothing to the Conservative government.

Make no mistake. If the government is insisting on increasing the weight of these particular provinces, it is because they are its stronghold or because it hopes to make political gains there. By going forward with this democratic reform, the Conservative government is claiming that it wants to respect democracy. However, the Conservatives are not fooling anyone. They are masters of flouting democracy. For example, they prorogued Parliament to avoid votes. They failed to follow the House's orders to submit documents, in particular, documents on the transfer of Afghan prisoners. They refused to appear before parliamentary committees. They recommended that unelected senators vote against bills that were passed by a majority of votes in the House, thus going against the will of the people. In 2008, they also failed to abide by their own legislation on fixed election dates.

The government is blatantly misleading the House and the public, as in the case involving the Minister of International Cooperation. I could go on but there are other points I would like to make.

Any recommendation in the House made by a special committee should not only take into account the current demographic weight of Quebec in the House of Commons, but it should also ensure that this weight is maintained because under no circumstance should Quebec's weight be any less than it currently is in the House.

In its current form, the Senate is unnecessary. It is a vehicle for partisan politics. Ever since the minority Conservative government came to power, it has been using this vehicle to introduce bills that the House of Commons opposes, in order to go against the will of the House of Commons. I cited a few examples, but there are many more.

Going against the will of the elected members of the House of Commons is completely anti-democratic in that this opposition comes from people whose legitimacy comes from a partisan appointment, unlike the legitimacy of the members of Parliament, which comes from the people.

We do not have to look too far back to find an example. Just consider Bill C-311. Bill C-311, An Act to ensure Canada assumes its responsibilities in preventing dangerous climate change, was supported by the Bloc Québécois and the majority of the legitimately elected members of the House of Commons. The bill imposed binding greenhouse gas reduction targets to ensure that Canada respects the IPCC recommendation and the requirement to submit a significant action plan every five years. The Prime Minister allowed the Senate to deny the will of the Parliament of Quebeckers and Canadians by allowing Conservative senators to defeat Bill C-311 without even studying it.

Yet, during the last election campaign, the Prime Minister declared that an unelected chamber should not block bills from an elected one. He then did an about-face and is now making use of the Conservative senators. He made sure that he appointed the majority of senators to the Senate to ensure that they would block bills or motions that Parliament had adopted and sent to the Senate and that they would introduce bills before members of Parliament even had a chance to speak to them.

When the seats of Liberal senators opened up, the Prime Minister made sure to appoint loyal Conservatives. By allowing their senators to vote against Bill C-311 without even studying it, the Conservatives created a precedent, a first since 1930, and showed a flagrant lack of respect for our democratic institutions.

The Conservative senators also managed to block certain bills passed by the House and sent to the Senate to be studied. Take, for example, Bill C-288, regarding the tax credit for new graduates working in designated regions, introduced by my colleague from Laurentides—Labelle, or Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), which would require Supreme Court judges to be bilingual. The Prime Minister could be confident that the senators would vote against these bills. In both cases, the Senate blocked the bills. On May 5, Bill C-288 received the support of a majority of MPs in the House of Commons. For the second time in less than three years, it was sent to the Senate. Since then, it has only been debated twice. Bill C-288 would help thousands of young people who want to study and remain in the regions, some of which are struggling economically.

With Bill C-232, the Conservatives were trying to buy some time. They kept delaying study of the bill until they had a majority in the Senate. The Conservative government is taking advantage of the fact that it controls the Senate in order to dictate its agenda. It is one thing for the Conservative government to oppose a measure, but to recommend that the Senate prevent debate on these two bills is unacceptable.

This shows the Conservative government's contempt for the will of the democratically elected parliamentarians. I should point out that the Liberals were no better and also used some schemes to delay passage of bills. Nonetheless, they never went as far as the Conservatives are going. In 2006, by the way, the Conservatives campaigned on reforming the Senate and making it more legitimate. That was one of the Prime Minister's promises.

That is why this Conservative government introduced a bill to reform Senate terms and limit them to eight years. That bill does nothing to reform this outdated, archaic institution where appointments are strictly partisan. That bill does nothing to remedy the nature of the Senate. The Prime Minister has transformed it into “a permanent office for his organizers, a waiting room for his Montreal candidates, and an absolute circus by the use of his surprising appointments, to describe them politely”, according to Vincent Marissal from La Presse.

The democratic deficit in the Senate and its extraordinarily partisan nature derive from the choices made by the Fathers of Confederation in 1867. From an academic standpoint, the upper house or senate in a federal system must represent the federated entities alongside a lower chamber, in our case, the House of Commons.

According to Réjean Pelletier, a political scientist and a professor in the political science department at Laval University, it is clear that this is not the case in the Canadian Parliament. In 1867, the Fathers of Confederation could have chosen the American model, where senators are elected by state legislatures and all states have equal weight, with the ability to elect two senators for a six-year term.

Instead, the Fathers of Confederation copied the British House of Lords and thus made the Senate a chamber that reviews legislation passed by the House of Commons. So the Senate is a chamber of sober second thought that moderates the overly democratic ways of the lower house, which is subject to pressure and emotional pleas from the public. But it no longer plays that role. What is more, senators were supposed to be appointed by the crown.

The idea of representing and defending the interests of federated entities did not come up in the discussions prior to the signing of the British North America Act. And from that stems our objection to the Senate, with its lack of legitimacy and representation.

Given that the Senate has become a partisan tool for the ruling Conservative Party and that it lacks both legitimacy and representation, it is not surprising that the public is angry about senators' spending.

According to an article by Stéphanie Marin in the January 27, 2011 edition of La Tribune, it would cost $90 million a year to keep the Senate in place. I do not remember the exact number, but I believe that 60% or 70% of Quebeckers supported abolishing the Senate.

We also learned in January that some senators are incurring excessive if not extravagant expenses. Conservative senators have not stopped sending mail-outs despite the fact that, in the spring of 2010, the House of Commons prohibited members from sending these types of mail-outs outside their ridings and specified that the Senate should follow suit.

It is important to note that the total printing budget for the Senate increased from $280,500 to $734,183 in 2008-09. Last month, the senators gave themselves the right to use taxpayers' dollars to continue to send mail-outs in which they can attack members.

To remedy the representation and legitimacy deficits and truly reform the Senate—to create a Senate where senators are actual representatives of Quebec and the provinces who are appointed or elected by legitimate authorities in Quebec, such as Quebec's National Assembly, and in the provinces and where there is equal representation for Quebec and the provinces resulting in a truly effective and non-partisan upper house as they have in other countries—we would have to proceed with a constitutional reform that would require agreement from seven provinces representing at least 50% of the population. We know that this would be practically impossible because we would have to reopen the Constitution.

The Bloc Québécois does not oppose this motion given that the Senate, in its current state, is unnecessary and that the current method of democratic representation has many shortcomings, such as the ones I have already mentioned. However, the Bloc's support for this motion is conditional upon the inclusion of two basic elements. First, Quebec's political weight must not be reduced at all as a result of any democratic reform. Second, under Quebec's referendum legislation, a referendum must be held in Quebec on the abolition of the Senate.

I would like to make two amendments to the NDP's motion. I move, seconded by the member for Vaudreuil-Soulanges:

That the motion be amended:

(a) by adding after the words “the next general election,” the following:

“with the understanding that, in Quebec, such a referendum will be subject to Quebec law, in accordance with the current Referendum Act and as established as a precedent by the 1992 Referendum on the Charlottetown Accord,”;

(b) by adding after the words “recommendations to the House” the following:

“that in no way reduce the current weight of the Quebec nation in the House of Commons”. .

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

It is my duty to inform hon. members that an amendment to an opposition motion may be moved only with the consent of the sponsor of the motion. Therefore, I ask the hon. member for Hamilton Centre if he consents to the amendment being moved.

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NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I concur and accept the amendment.

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

The amendment is in order.

Questions and comments. The hon. member for Hamilton Centre.

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, by way of questions and comments, I have two quick points.

First, the policy with regard to accepting the current weight of the seats in Parliament being frozen moving forward as a policy that we have already accepted is predicated on the fact that it was not that long ago that this House unanimously agreed with this statement, “That this House recognize that the Québécois form a nation within a united Canada”.

We all accepted that. For us to turn around within a year or two and diminish the actual weight of the Quebec seats in this House, in our view, is contrary to the spirit of that motion that was passed. It was done for a reason. I am very comfortable accepting the amendment because it is consistent with our policy on this matter.

Second, with regard to the referendum being allowed to be held by Quebec legislation under the current Referendum Act, during the Charlottetown referendum in 1992, Quebec was allowed to do that. Therefore, since we still have the same law and that precedent exists, we are prepared to accept that, almost see it as an exception, as long as it is understood that it is done so without prejudice and that, during the course of reviewing the Referendum Act, we remain free to accept a policy that may or may not allow that to happen in the future.

I just wanted to explain why I support the amendment. It is my understanding that in return we do now have at least two of the four parties in this House that are prepared to accept this motion.

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11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, we did in fact have consultations with the NDP and we agreed on the proposed amendments. We will never give up. The government recognized the Quebec nation and now it needs to walk the talk. That is important to Quebec. Quebec is a nation, by virtue of the significance of its francophone population in North America and its distinct culture.

The bill the government wants to introduce would increase electoral representation from outside Quebec, for example, in Alberta and British Columbia. We must be very careful, since Quebec's weight would decrease. I am calling on all members of this House to be vigilant. If Quebec is recognized as a nation, we must also recognize that its weight in the House should not be reduced below its current level.

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11:55 a.m.

Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia Manitoba

Conservative

Steven Fletcher ConservativeMinister of State (Democratic Reform)

Mr. Speaker, the Bloc has brought forward an amendment dealing with the abolition of the Senate but it then complains about the diminishment of Quebec's representation in Parliament. If the Senate is abolished, Quebec will lose 24 parliamentary seats. In fact, supporting the NDP motion would mean that Quebec's representation in Parliament would be diminished because Quebec has 24 senatorial positions, which is four times as many as Alberta, B.C., Saskatchewan or Manitoba, and is as many seats as Ontario has in spite of Ontario being, by population, a larger province.

I do not mind that Quebec has as many Senate seats. That is why the Senate is there—

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

Noon

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

The microphone seemed to go off for about the last 30 seconds of the minister's question.

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Noon

Conservative

Steven Fletcher Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB

That is a shame because those comments were very profound.

By supporting the abolition of the Senate, the Bloc is supporting a reduction of Quebec's political weight in Parliament because Quebec would lose 24 seats in Parliament. It is very hypocritical for the Bloc to support the motion.

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Noon

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would invite the Conservative Party spokesperson for democratic reform to read the motion carefully. We are not talking about abolishing the Senate, but rather about abolishing the Senate in its existing form. The Senate has been reduced to a propaganda tool, the Prime Minister's robotic arm. In the Senate, they do not even look at the bills that have been democratically passed here in the House and then sent there. It will decide to reject a bill without even examining it. Unelected senators introduce bills that run counter to the political will. The Prime Minister wanted to reform the Senate. The NDP member's proposal constitutes reform. He is calling for the House to appoint a special committee to improve our institutions. I wonder if the senators from Quebec care more about Quebec's interests or the interests of the government currently in power. We could work on finding ways to make the Senate more acceptable and more respectful of what happens here in the House of Commons.

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Noon

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate my colleague from Québec on her comments and more generally on how she handles her duties as the Bloc Québécois critic for democratic reform. I would also like to thank my NDP colleague for accepting the Bloc amendment.

I would like to respond to the Minister of State for Democratic Reform, who said that the Bloc could expect a 25% reduction in the number of parliamentarians because there are 25 senators from Quebec. The minister did not seem to notice that the only difference is that, in Quebec, no matter what our party, we are democratically elected by the people we represent. Ours are not political patronage appointments. That is what my colleague was trying to show and to make the minister understand. He does not seem to understand that.

If an election is called—likely this fall—the 308 people elected to this place, no matter what parties they belong to, will deserve to be here and their legitimacy will be conferred by the people, unlike senators who are appointed as a political reward.

Although I am being told that my time is up, I would like to mention some cases: Brian Mulroney appointed his hair stylist and the manager of the Ritz-Carlton; the Liberals appointed Viola Léger, the actress from La Sagouine, and Jean Lapointe, who still makes movies. I could go on for the rest of the day.

Opposition Motion--Representation in ParliamentBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

Noon

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, what more can I say? This motion would ensure that the Senate is more respectful of the decisions that are made here in the House of Commons. We no longer want unelected representatives voting on bills that were passed here in the House of Commons. We no longer want that attitude towards representatives who were elected by the public. That is undemocratic. the Conservative Party should be happy to see such a bill because that was what the Prime Minister wanted during the 2006 election campaign as well as the last one. He promised to reform the Senate and to never use senators to overturn the votes held here in the House. Yet he has done the complete opposite. It is clear that the Conservative member responsible for democratic reform is not taking that into account.

A promise was made. Therefore, we are debating it today and the NDP has decided to move forward.