House of Commons Hansard #181 of the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was nation.

Topics

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend the hon. member for his speech.

In his opinion, will the paternalistic tone of this bill appeal to first nations and improve our relationship with them in any way?

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Tarik Brahmi NDP Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Speaker, certainly not. This tone will not result in greater confidence.

We want the first nations to have more control over their own destiny and we want to see more economic development in their communities.

My colleagues raised the following argument: if other companies are given an unfair competitive advantage over a first nations business, one reaction may be to move that business outside the first nations sphere. Such action could produce the opposite of the intended effect, or in other words, it could result in less economic development in first nations communities and the relocation of certain companies. These companies could generate revenue and economic development for people who need it and who need schools and basic services—things that the people of my riding take for granted.

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Speaker, the Conservatives often play populist politics. They react to specific incidents and then introduce legislation. This is no way to manage a country and create laws.

What does the hon. member think about the approach the Conservatives are taking by reacting to incidents reported in the newspapers and then creating legislation that applies to all aboriginal communities in Canada? Does he think this is the right way to legislate?

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Tarik Brahmi NDP Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question, even though he sometimes tries to take my speaking time, which is perfectly natural.

He mentioned populist politics, but in this case, we are also talking about lobbying. Some groups that take it upon themselves to speak on behalf of taxpayers have a certain agenda, and the government is reacting to that agenda. There is probably a populist aspect to it, but there is also a lobbying aspect, which, in my opinion, is inconsistent with this type of bill. Instead, the government should be seeking to improve our relationship with aboriginal communities.

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Mr. Speaker, we are discussing Bill C-27 today, after it was examined by the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

The government says the purpose of this bill is to improve the financial transparency of the first nations. I am going to ignore the irony of the situation, where we have the government talking about financial transparency. Everyone is aware of how grotesque that situation is without any comment being needed.

So this bill is supposed to enhance the financial transparency of the first nations by making it mandatory that their financial statements be prepared and disclosed. The information to be disclosed includes the details of the annual remuneration paid by a first nation, and by any entity that it controls, to its chief and each of its councillors, acting in their professional and personal capacity.

In addition to the obligation to report the salaries paid to chiefs and band councillors, the bill makes it mandatory to disclose complete audit reports and publish those documents on the first nation’s website for 10 years.

On this side of the House, we consider many points in this bill to be problematic, and I think the members who spoke before me have summarized them very well. For that reason, I am instead going to focus not on the content of this bill, but on the administrative burden it represents for many first nations communities.

First, the band councils already submit audited annual financial statements under agreements with the government. This bill therefore serves no purpose other than to make everything even more complicated.

According to the figures in the Auditor General’s 2006 report, a first nation has to produce, on average, 200 reports a year, when some communities have populations of 700 or 800 people—fewer than 1,000 people. This may raise some eyebrows.

If there still is not enough transparency, when first nations communities are being made to write an average of two reports a week, I would venture to suggest that the government perhaps needs to rethink the entire system. That would be more useful and more effective than adding another report on top of all the rest.

I watched the speech the member for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar gave when she introduced the bill; she had introduced the previous version of this bill in the last Parliament. According to her, the communities “go to great lengths to make this information available to community members. They display it on their community websites. They feature it in householder mailings. They post it in band offices.”

So the member is saying that chiefs and band councils are completely aware of the importance of transparency toward the members of their communities, and in fact they are already doing this very well without needing to be reminded by a humiliating and coercive bill.

A number of witnesses, including John Paul, a member of the Membertou First Nation, testified at the committee and also confirmed this. That witness told us: “…transparency, and disclosure of information...is very important to our leadership.... Over decades our community has provided full disclosure of our complete audit, and more recently on our website,...the complete details of compensation to all the members of council.”

I am going to digress for a moment. What about communities that, like those in my area, do not have Internet access at home? They will be forced to disclose information for 10 years on the community's website even though the community does not have Internet access. That is one of my questions that nobody has answered.

What have we learned from my Conservative colleague who introduced the bill in the last Parliament? We have learned that the chiefs and first nations elected officials recognize the value in ensuring the actions and decisions of elected officials are clearly visible to all and to the community. They recognize that their citizens share a fundamental right to know how their money is being spent. In fact, several first nations go to great lengths to make this information available to community members. Therefore, why is there a need for this humiliating and useless bill?

The bill finds its roots and origins in the racist assumption that all first nations are either corrupt or incompetent. I reject both of those assumptions. We need to stop those assumptions for good.

Band councils are already accountable to the government and they get the information out to their members. Why are we debating this bill? Is it because someone in the government decided that a 201st annual report would be amusing?

In the 2006 Auditor General's report, it was mentioned that 96% of first nations file their 200 annual reports on time, without any problem. The Auditor General's report did not include any kind of comment or criticism. Everything was fine. Only 1.7% of all first nations were put into third party management by the government because of financial management problems.

Are we talking about a chronic lack of transparency on the part of first nations? No, quite the contrary.

If one were to look at numbers and statistics, one would see there is nothing wrong with first nations' financial transparency. Of all first nations in this country, 96% submit their audits on time, without comments or criticism from the auditor. The lack of transparency is so minimal that I wonder why we are discussing this bill.

The truth is that all these reports, most of which are not even used by federal organizations, are a waste of time for first nations band councils, which could use that time to meet their population's needs. Yet, today we find ourselves debating the usefulness of a 201st annual report for our communities. Abitibi-Témiscamingue has five Algonquin First Nation communities, and some of them are seen as models of sound management and leading examples of development.

Take, for example, the Abitibiwinni band on the Pikogan reserve near Amos. Chief Kistabish and the council work very hard to ensure their community's prosperity and sustainability. Incidentally, they recently signed a historic agreement with their neighbours and a mining company. The Abitibiwinni band works in concert with stakeholders in regional development. Getting to this point took years of mutual trust. Now, the government is trying to stir up suspicion and misunderstanding.

Our Algonquin communities in Abitibi-Témiscamingue have nothing to gain from such a bill.

Other examples include Eagle Village from the Anishnabe Nation. Chief Madeleine Paul and her band council work so hard to ensure a healthy and wealthy community for future generations. She has to deal with the opportunities brought by a rare earth mining development and the danger of having Lake Kipawa polluted if things are not done properly. The Timiskaming First Nation and the new chief, Terence McBride, are also striving to seek new partnerships for their development.

I sincerely believe that there are other priorities. As we have seen, the financial transparency of first nations is not an issue in the vast majority of cases. Most are aware of the need for transparency and are already being transparent.

Most of my colleagues who have already spoken mentioned this, but I would like to talk about something that is extremely shocking to us: the lack of consultation with the first nations on this bill.

On a related note, and to conclude my speech, I would like to quote article 4 of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples:

Indigenous peoples, in exercising their right to self-determination, have the right to autonomy or self-government in matters relating to their internal and local affairs, as well as ways and means for financing their autonomous functions.

I remind all of my hon. colleagues that it is truly worthwhile to visit the first nations communities to see just how financially transparent they are, how proud we can be of how these communities are managed, and just how interested community members are in what is going on. A great many people go to band council meetings to find out exactly how their money is being spent. If we compare that to attendance at municipal council meetings in non-aboriginal cities and towns, I think that we can be proud of our aboriginal communities. People are interested in what is being done with their money, and these council leaders do their jobs diligently and provide all the information. It makes absolutely no sense to demand a 201st annual report, when they are already doing everything they can.

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

Noon

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to put a question to my colleague, whom I congratulate on her speech.

The Conservatives often talk about red tape. They say they have to eliminate it as much as possible, but when the time comes for action, they do exactly the opposite. Bill C-377 generates even more red tape for the unions. And now the government is generating even more red tape for aboriginal people as well.

What can my colleague tell us about the Conservatives' doublespeak? When the time comes to take action, it does exactly the opposite and generates more red tape for communities.

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Sherbrooke for that question.

The communities do have a lot of reporting requirements. Compared to what is asked of municipalities of 800 inhabitants like those in my riding, the fact that aboriginal communities are being asked to prepare all these reports is incredible, when they live in poverty and difficult conditions in many instances. We are asking them to deal with more red tape. There are ways to ensure the financial transparency of first nations communities without asking them to prepare more annual reports.

If federal government members travelled to the communities to see things for themselves, they would understand. When you take the time to travel, to go to those communities and to see the money that has been invested there and the repairs that have been made, you can see whether a community is properly managing its money.

The government might not need as many reports if it took the trouble to go and meet with them and talk to them.

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member asked how first nations without a website would be able to publish the requirements that are asked for in the bill. The legislation calls for public disclosure, consolidated financial statements and schedules of remuneration. Most of the data that is asked for, with very little additional data, is already supplied by people. It is not an onerous task. They are not required to pick up houses and move them or anything. It is entry off a keyboard. It is pretty straightforward.

It is important to note that posting documents on a website is insufficient to discharge a first nation's duty, but the first nation may charge a fee for providing copies if another first nation enters the other first nation's information. The fees may not exceed the cost of transmission. What was mentioned by the hon. member was a lot of little things that amount to very little and would in no way affect information transmission to members of the band. That is what the act is all about, to increase the information for band members.

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Mr. Speaker, as I said in my speech, chiefs and band councils already submit financial information to the members of their communities. The members of the communities thus already have access to that information; that is already being done.

In my riding, for example, band chiefs are currently negotiating with mining giants that want to open mines on traditional lands. If the government decides that all the financial figures related to the contracts signed with mining companies have to be published on the Internet, then every time these people negotiate and try to get good contracts for their members, someone will point out that it says on the Internet that another first nation accepted such and such an amount. Companies will therefore tell bands to accept their offers and to keep quiet because what they are offering them is good. However, it does not work that way.

In no communities other than first nations communities would people be compelled to reveal what they have negotiated with big corporations. People who live in communities of 800, who have no diplomas or basic university degrees, are being asked to negotiate with big corporations and to publish the results of their negotiations on the Internet. That is utterly unacceptable, and no other community in Canada would be asked to do that.

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I rise today to speak to Bill C-27. One of the things that I like about the bill is that it demonstrates very clearly the difference between two governments: a Conservative government and a Liberal government. In the Liberal government we saw a different approach to dealing with the important issues facing our aboriginal and, in particular, first nation communities. In the Conservative government we see an approach that the government knows best and that there is no need to do any sort of genuine consultation.

When I posed the question to the Conservative member on what sort of consultation was done, the member made reference to a previous bill and said that at committee we heard hours of debate. I believe he made reference to the fact that there were chiefs who made presentations at committee. I suspect that many members of the Conservative caucus have received a great deal of feedback on Bill C-27 or the bill that Bill C-27 is replacing because the Prime Minister prorogued Parliament a couple of years ago.

In the answer the government member continuously talked about post-introduction of the bill. Therein lies the difference between a Liberal government and a Conservative government. The Liberal government recognized the importance of working with first nations before we even introduced the legislation. Therein lies the difference.

If we look for leadership within the first nations prior to introducing the legislation or even prior to the drafting of the legislation, it is there. It needs to be emphasized that there is very strong leadership in our first nation communities. If the government chose to capitalize on that leadership, we would have better legislation than we have today. Unfortunately, we have the legislation, but it enables individuals like myself to demonstrate the difference between two ways of governing. One way has demonstrated far more success, that being for example the Paul Martin government in the creation of the Kelowna accord, which I will get to in a few moments.

Transparency and proactive disclosure are something that Canadians love and most politicians talk a great deal about. It is nothing new. It is something that is advocated but it is not only for first nations. I was a provincial MLA for many years and I tried to get to the bottom of how much money the NDP provincial government was paying the chair of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. At last count, I tallied over $500,000 for one individual working within the civil service. The numbers we were hearing were well in excess of that. I remember trying to find out how much the provincial government was paying in pensions for that position. If we want to talk about challenges, there are huge challenges in terms of trying to draw out how much money is being allocated for one civil service position. Trust me, I could talk a great deal. The issue is accountability, not just for first nations—

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Order, please. The hon. member for Palliser is rising on a point of order.

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK

Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, I do not know if there is a question in this or not. I think we are into minute four with an impromptu speech—

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Order, please. The hon. member for Winnipeg North is up on debate rather than questions and comments. He is in fact halfway through his 10-minute speech.

The hon. member for Winnipeg North.

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I trust that the time for the point of order will not be taken out of my time.

The truth can sometimes make people feel a little uncomfortable but that is the reality. It is not just about the need for more accountability and transparency within our first nations, the provincial governments or, moving on, the national government. We just need to look at this huge budget bill that we are talking about.

There are huge needs out there that need to be met around the whole issue of accountability and more transparency. We have seen that there is a need for more accountability and transparency with first nations but that is nothing new, just like it is not new for other levels of government.

This is where I will mention the Kelowna accord. Members will be familiar with the Kelowna accord. It is something agreed to under former prime minister Paul Martin, through months of discussion and dialogue with representatives and stakeholders from coast to coast to coast, which in good part was led by first nations themselves. Ultimately, a report which was agreed upon. A consensus that was achieved. Paul Martin, as the prime minister, took great effort in ensuring that our first nations communities led the dialogue in many different ways. As a result, we achieved the Kelowna accord.

People should be aware that within the Kelowna accord was an accountability framework. If we look at that accountability framework, it included a first nations auditor general. What sort of an impact would that have had?

I would argue that many of the concerns that people who live on reserves or off reserves have in regard to accountability, including the leadership of our first nations, would have been addressed through that first nations auditor general. This had support and it was encouraged through our first nations.

What did the government do when it had the opportunity to implement, for the first time, a first nations auditor general. It chose to tear up the agreement. It completely discarded what it was that the previous government had put in place, which would have taken into consideration the sensitive issues surrounding financial transparency and accountability.

Let us look at the whole issue of reports. The government seems to want to place the burden for reporting on first nations. On the surface one would say that there is an obligation for some sense of accountability and that part of that accountability means providing reports. However, what we also need to recognize is that the Canadian Auditor General has seen that the federal government has already put the burden on first nations in the number of reports it continues to demand that the first nations surrender.

If the government were genuine in wanting to achieve what it hopes to achieve with Bill C-27, it should have listened to what the Auditor General of Canada said in terms of easing the burden of some of the reports that are being requested. It should have taken that report, sat down with the leadership of our first nations people and come up with legislation that would have factored in what the Auditor General said. If it had listened to what our first nations leadership was saying, it could have brought forward better legislation for which the government would have received not only the support of all parties in this chamber, but would have had a much better base of support from the many different stakeholders.

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to my hon. colleague, but for the folks back home to know the difference between fiction and reality, we should look at the Liberal record. The member talks about how the Liberal government was one that listened to and spoke with first nations. I worked with the first nations in Quebec under a Liberal government and I was in this House under the Paul Martin government. The Liberals had their road map for progress, their round table for change and their blueprint for dialogue but things got worse every single year in the communities with which I worked.

I worked in Barriere Lake when an agreement was signed with the federal government in 1997, the memorandum of mutual intent. The government broke that agreement as soon as it signed it. It deposed the band council and used the same kind of brutal tactics that the present Conservative government does.

I know my hon. colleague is new in this House but I would remind him that the Kashechewan crisis of 2005 was as disastrous as the Attawapiskat crisis. At the time, we had the health minister from the Liberal government say, “We don't have federal water standards; we can't be held accountable”. He needs to get his facts correct.

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that the member would take such an attitude. If he wants to talk about the New Democrats, all he needs to do is look at the province of Manitoba where aboriginal communities are suing the provincial NDP government because of its irresponsible approach to flooding issues. The people are not even allowed to live in their own communities because of provincial NDP neglect. Do not try to take the high road as if the New Democrats are so gracious and they have the moral—

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Order, please. I would remind all hon. members to direct their comments to the Chair rather than to their colleagues. I appreciate this is an emotional—

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Four majority governments in Manitoba.

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Order, please. Questions and comments, the hon. parliamentary secretary.

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Kenora Ontario

Conservative

Greg Rickford ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development

Mr. Speaker, earlier, one of the member's colleagues mentioned the Kelowna accord. We know a couple of things about that document. First, it was an 11th hour document when the Liberals were effectively on their way out the door because Canadians had rejected their version of accountability and transparency.

I am seeing some furrowed eyebrows down there and I am sure that is more out of frustration than anything.

Second, the Kelowna accord was not actually in a budget so it remains to be seen as to whether there was a genuine attempt here to deliver on some of the things.

Third, our government has gone far beyond the Kelowna accord, not just in terms of resources but in terms of the kinds of legislative tools that would bring a modern first nations economy up to speed with many regions of this country.

This bill is important because accountability and transparency are central tenets of self-governance. It is a relationship between the chief and council and its citizens. It would get rid of the issue of having to go to the minister for this kind of public information.

Given the LIberals' poor track record on this, does the member not think that kind of accountability and transparency is what is important here, not the kind the Liberals delivered in days gone by?

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I happen to have in my hands the actual Kelowna accord, just in case the member never received it.

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Table the budget that it was in.

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, he is asking for the tabling of the document. I would ask for the unanimous consent of the House to table the accord.

If government members or New Democratic members were to read the document, they would see that it is a document that the House of Commons should never have torn up, that it should have respected and acted upon it. It would have dealt with not only financial issues but a wide variety of issues. This is something on which Paul Martin, as prime minister, working in consultation with leaders of our first nations communities, was able to come up with a consensus and bring to the House of Common, which meant that there was widespread support for this document. That cannot be said, especially when it comes to consulting, with regard to the government of the day. That is why I say that it distinguishes a big difference between the Paul Martin era of governance versus what we see today.

Mr. Speaker, I would ask for leave to table the Kelowna accord.

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Does the hon. member have unanimous consent to table the document?

Motions in AmendmentFirst Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.