Debates of Dec. 6th, 2012

The House resumed from November 2 consideration of the motion that Bill C-429, An Act to amend the Radiocommunication Act and the Telecommunications Act (antenna systems) be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Radiocommunication Act

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise this evening to talk about the rules governing the placement of telecommunications towers.

I would like to congratulate my colleague, the member for Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, on behalf of all Canadians, mayors and MPs who are dealing with this problem and have been calling for some time for a transparent consultation process so that the public and elected representatives will be able to provide input regarding the location of telecommunications antennas.

To demonstrate the scope of the phenomenon, in Montreal, for example, there are approximately 2,000 structures with antennas. In Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, it is estimated that there are approximately 35 structures of this type. Moreover, some towers can easily house approximately 50 different antennas. The rapid proliferation of wireless applications and of new service providers is bringing increasing pressure to bear on existing infrastructure.

Canadians must be consulted because erecting telecommunications antennas raises a number of issues that directly affect their daily lives. The matter of aesthetics and respecting the built heritage is obvious: nobody wants to have that kind of structure in their backyard. But it is also a question of public health.

Moreover, it appears that the effects of these antennas on our health are not entirely known. Option consommateurs, for example, considers that the standards developed by Health Canada and imposed on service providers by Industry Canada are inadequate, and has argued that they only apply to the amplified thermal effects of radio frequencies that are emitted and not to non-thermal effects in the long term. Most Canadians I have met share this opinion and think that the current safety provisions are inadequate.

To illustrate the frustrations that Canadians and local elected representatives face, allow me to describe something that recently occurred in Saint-Eustache. I am singling out this case, but there are hundreds of similar cases across Canada. I could also list several other comparable cases in Rivière-des-Mille-Îles.

In the summer of 2011, residents of the des Jardins neighbourhood got the surprise of their lives when they saw a 27-metre telecommunications tower go up behind the car dealerships on Dubois Street, which is adjacent to a residential area. When questioned by angry residents, the elected representatives of the City of Saint-Eustache had to admit they were powerless. The negotiation process between Rogers and the municipality took place in 2010. The company first informed the City of what it needed to improve its network. The municipality proposed a number of available municipal lots, but the proposed lots were not suitable in the opinion of the Rogers engineers.

Faced with a deadlock, the telecommunications company turned to the private sector to find a location for its tower. Canadian law requires that for each telecommunications tower project of this type a 30-day public consultation must be held. All residents living within a radius of three times the height of the tower must be informed by letter and invited to comment by regular mail or email. Nobody voiced any opposition during the 30-day period. Industry Canada was therefore able to authorize the Rogers project. How is that possible?

The municipal council argues that, “neither the City, nor the provincial government have jurisdiction in this file,” and that, “since residents are consulted in this kind of process, it is they who are entitled to object to such facilities being built in their neighbourhoods.” The city has reminded residents on several occasions, by way of resolutions, that the council opposed the decision.

Rogers, for its part, claims that it met its regulatory obligations by contacting residents who were directly affected, by being courteous, and by mailing a copy of the consultation to the city.

In my opinion, the legislation and the circular published in June 2007 by Industry Canada governing the installation of antennas poses two problems. On the one hand, telecommunications companies are not forced to share existing towers. Competition is fierce and the companies do not want to share their infrastructure. This is understandable. However, legislators need to bring them back into line. This is public property. Its use comes with responsibilities.

The CRTC must be given the power to adjudicate disputes regarding the sharing of telecommunications towers.

The other problem with respect to the law is that consultations are not really public, to the extent that most of the time, residents and municipal elected representatives have not knowingly given their consent or had time to organize themselves.

The bill introduced by my colleague amends the Radiocommunications Act and stipulates that the construction of all new antenna bearing structures be preceded by a study to examine the option of using existing infrastructure. If this is impossible, all new construction projects involving pylons, towers and other antenna bearing structures, however high, must be subject to a public consultation.

The general idea is to halt the proliferation of antennas by forcing telecommunications companies to reach agreements to share existing facilities. In cases where it is impossible to use existing infrastructure, the bill requires that public hearings be held and forces developers to ensure they have the support of the municipalities before they proceed with their projects. In keeping with this legislation, developers will no longer be able to install antennas without taking into account the concerns of municipalities and their residents in the development of their projects.

Moreover, the bill introduces new obligations in terms of public consultations. For instance, a public consultation must be held on the construction of towers or antenna-bearing structures, regardless of their height. At present, towers that are lower than 15 metres are exempt from public consultation. Industry Canada must then publish confirmation that the public consultation process was respected.

In my view, the bill is a balanced approach that helps find a middle ground between the interests of citizens, municipalities and proponents. We hope to regulate the installation of new antennas, but we do not want to hinder the development of the industry. We want proponents to respect municipalities' lead-time and to respect and consider the concerns of the municipalities and their citizens.

This strategy is completely in line with the NDP's approach. For instance, I like the fact that it aims at strengthening the framework for the development of telecommunications towers by co-operative measures, among proponents, municipalities and citizens. In addition to promoting discussion and co-operation among all parties, the bill would provide the CRTC with the authority to intervene in order to minimize the effects of a new antenna in a community.

I also appreciate that the bill is flexible enough to allow for an antenna to be put up quickly, if necessary. Since there may be certain antenna systems that are not detrimental to the municipality or citizens, the bill provides that an exemption from public consultation could be established by local and government authorities.

Moreover, I have been told that the Canadian Wireless Telecommunications Association is drafting a non-binding protocol on the installation of telecommunications antenna. Wireless providers know that many people are grumbling about the current process, and they are trying to avoid legislation that is even stricter by preparing a framework for self-regulation.

However, history has shown that telecommunications companies have to be persuaded simply to respect their legal obligations. I am thinking, for instance, of the carriers' reluctance to comply with their own regional coverage improvement plan. How can anyone believe that a self-regulation system would allow citizens' interests to come before the interests of these huge corporations?

As I have been told that I have only one minute left to finish my speech, I would like to emphasize the fact that the industry must acknowledge that my colleague's bill makes sense for a lot of reasons. The industry should also work with him to make it better, because the alternative is likely to hurt even more. We have already seen, for instance, in Repentigny, where the city demanded that an antenna be dismantled, that a less heterogeneous approach could also be detrimental to the industry.

I am interested in hearing my colleagues’ comments and questions.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in this House today to support Bill C-429, An Act to amend the Radiocommunication Act and the Telecommunications Act (antenna systems), introduced by the hon. member for Châteauguay—Saint-Constant.

This bill is particularly important because it affects each and every one of our ridings. I am pleased that we have the opportunity to examine this issue today.

This bill seeks to legislate the implementation and construction process of antenna systems, and to ensure the balanced development of telecommunications antennas, among others, by involving local authorities in these processes.

As we know, the telecommunications industry is growing in Canada, and we all benefit from it because we can fully enjoy its services.

This industry is essential to ensuring that Canadian businesses remain competitive and that every citizen can remain in constant contact with people around him, both on a personal and professional level.

As members of Parliament, and given the importance of BlackBerrys, emails and other forms of communication in our daily lives, we are all very aware of the importance of the telecommunications industry in our lives and in the lives of our constituents.

However, we have to admit that the current development of telecommunications towers in Canadian municipalities is poorly managed, and that the regulatory framework established by Industry Canada is unable to meet the concerns of thousands of citizens and hundreds of municipal officials.

Indeed, Industry Canada's directive CPC-2-0-03, which governs the telecommunications industry, does not include any compulsory public consultations for the construction of towers less than 15 metres high, and does not require the involvement of local authorities in the implementation process of telecommunications antennas.

Moreover, while this directive includes sanctions for non-compliance with the established regulatory framework, it seems Industry Canada does not impose these sanctions on offenders.

In June, at the last convention of the Federation of Canadian Municipalities held in Saskatoon, I had the opportunity to attend a panel on telecommunications antennas in municipalities. The participants included Bernard Lord, Industry Canada officials and, of course, municipal councillors and mayors from all regions of the country. What I heard at that panel was not particularly good nor very flattering for Industry Canada, quite the contrary. There was a lot of frustration and discontent directed at Industry Canada officials and Mr. Lord.

All that frustration convinced me of the urgent need to review the existing regulations to better harmonize the implementation process of telecommunications antennas in our municipalities.

Bill C-429 seeks to respond to the frustrations felt by citizens and municipal officials by regulating the siting and construction of antenna systems, while also democratizing the process by involving the land-use authorities, that is the municipalities, as well as citizens in the decision-making process.

First of all, this bill simplifies the application process for the shared use of antenna sites by telecommunications companies, in order to limit the unnecessary proliferation of new towers in our municipalities, which seems to be happening all across Canada.

Bill C-429 also grants the CRTC oversight power and the authority to rule on disputes regarding tower sharing, which will have the advantage of creating a single forum independent of government to resolve any disputes that arise between telecommunications companies.

In addition, the bill compels these companies to hold public consultations before constructing any tower, regardless of its height, except in cases where the construction will not hurt anyone.

For instance, my riding of Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier has some very isolated, rural municipalities. I am thinking of places like Rivière-à-Pierre, where there is no cellular service. No companies serve that region. I can assure you that the people of Rivière-à-Pierre would very much like to have a telecommunications tower in order to have cellular service in their municipality. I have no doubt that that exception would easily apply in that municipality, since there is an urgent need there.

Lastly, Bill C-429 would also require proponents to consult the local land-use authority, namely the municipality, in order to determine the local requirements and ensure that the siting of a telecommunications antenna fits in with the municipality's local development plans.

When we talk about local requirements, we are talking about a public consultation process that has already been established by the authority, discussions regarding possible tower locations and the response to reasonable and relevant concerns of the municipality and community involved. Nothing outlandish is being requested—quite the contrary.

It is important to remember that land use falls under provincial jurisdiction and is delegated to the municipalities. It is necessary to ensure that they are able to fully exercise their jurisdiction over their own land, and it is absolutely essential that antenna systems are developed collaboratively in keeping with the municipal or rural land use plan.

The purpose of the bill is certainly not to harm the industry, which is extremely important to Canada. What is more, there will not be any regulatory duplication, as some of the members opposite suggested. In fact, the existing requirements will be replaced with those set out in Bill C-429, so that particular problem will simply resolve itself once the bill is passed.

The bill introduced by the hon. member for Châteauguay—Saint-Constant addresses a clear demand from municipalities and individuals who currently have no recourse at all when a telecommunications tower is erected in their municipality in a place that neither members of the community nor municipal officials find suitable.

This problem is not specific to the telecommunications industry. In fact, a number of other areas of exclusive federal jurisdiction are experiencing the same problem, since the government refuses to exercise its jurisdiction and regulate it fully, under the pretext that it does not want to harm the industry. However, the government is forgetting all the people who are directly affected by this, individuals and municipal officials, who have development plans for their cities and who, sometimes, in certain regions, have to protect farmland, which is becoming increasingly rare. All of these considerations need to be taken into account but are ignored in areas of exclusive federal jurisdiction.

I have in mind an example that affects my riding in particular, and that is the aerospace industry. The existing regulations for the construction of private airports are fairly similar to those in effect for telecommunications antennas. This area is largely unregulated, which means that private developers have a great deal of latitude and can pretty much do what they want at Canadians' expense.

Private airports, specifically, can be put anywhere in a zone considered undeveloped, without the need to consult with elected municipal officials and the public. For antennas over 15 metres it amounts to the same problem. There is the case of the unwanted construction of a private airport in Neuville. Despite opposition from hundreds of citizens and the municipal council, petitions, protests and multiple calls on Parliament to have the minister ask the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities to conduct a study to address the harmonization issues between federal and provincial areas of jurisdiction, nothing has been done and the public has no protection or recourse. This is the same situation.

The protection of land and farmland, and land use are all exclusive provincial jurisdictions, but that fact is overlooked to the benefit of rich private developers, whether it is to build telecommunications antennas or airports. It is the same situation here, and it is a problem. That is why I thank the member for Châteauguay—Saint-Constant for introducing this kind of bill. He is forcing us to think about the needs of the provinces and municipalities and their responsibilities towards the public. It also enables us to better protect our own constituents, the people we represent.

Bill C-429 responds to a real need. I hope it will be supported by members of all the parties in the House. The public and the Federation of Canadian Municipalities clearly support my colleague's bill. I hope that members from each party will do the same.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to participate in this debate today. I thank my colleague from Châteauguay—Saint-Constant for bringing forward Bill C-429, which would help alleviate a lot of the problems that many of us are experiencing in our local communities. I thank the member for his diligent work on this issue.

This is an issue that, when we delve into it, we find right across the country. Many communities have been faced with the difficult challenge of suddenly finding there is a cellphone tower popping up in the middle of their neighbourhood, near a school, near a residential community, in the middle of a residential community. Then they find out that if it is under 15 metres, they cannot do anything about it.

We had that situation in my community of east Vancouver. Because of the diligence of local community members who brought this to my attention and to the attention of the local member of the legislature, MLA Shane Simpson, we found out there was a problem in our local neighbourhood. We immediately went to work and started to look at the regulations or lack thereof, about what we could do. It was through the incredible hard work of local neighbours, people like Janice, that information became available in the local community. They were as surprised as anyone to find out that, without their knowledge, a cellphone tower had been erected adjacent to a low-rise apartment building at Hastings and McGill, slap bang in the middle of a residential neighbourhood, and there was virtually nothing they could do about it.

I immediately wrote to the Minister of Industry and the Minister of Health to inquire why the rules and regulations exempted these cellphone towers and that the municipality, the city of Vancouver, that wanted to be involved had no recourse to deal with the telecommunications companies that put these towers in east Vancouver and other neighbourhoods. I also raised it in the House in December 2010. I was very dissatisfied with the responses I received from both ministers.

I and Shane Simpson, the MLA, decided to proceed with a public forum in our community and to bring in the telecommunications wireless companies and the city of Vancouver to have a discussion about what should be done with the cellphone tower. Councillor Raymond Louie, who took a lot of time and interest in this issue, in responding to the concerns in the local communities, and particularly the city of Vancouver deputy city manager, Sadhu Johnston who came to our meeting, as well as the medical health officer, worked very closely with us as elected officials, with the local community and with the cellphone companies to find a resolution. It was only because we were able to get the parties together in a voluntary way that we were finally able, after more than a year's work, to get a resolution and a voluntary agreement from the company in question that it was an inappropriate location for a cellphone tower.

We had a good resolution in that one instance. However, what is not being addressed is the ongoing issue across Canada of these cellphone towers, what they are doing in local and urban communities and residential neighbourhoods and the fact that Industry Canada has really not responded. One of my constituents wrote me an email on this recently. She says, “Industry Canada are impossible to talk to. It is quite literally like talking to a brick wall. Canada is essentially allowing the cellphone companies to self-regulate”. She too makes the point, as my colleague just did, that this has been a very big topic of discussion for municipal councillors at the Federation of Municipalities.

The municipalities are asking for a very rational change. They have asked that municipal consultation be required on all towers that are to be installed.

On my part, I also brought forward Motion No. 154 to this effect in the House, calling on Industry Canada to change the current regulations so that telecommunications companies seeking to install cellphone towers must have municipal consultation regarding all towers being installed, and public consultation regarding those within 500 metres of any tower being installed. In my motion, I also called on Industry Canada to allow communities to develop their own regulation and consultation rules to prevent impacts on residential areas and areas adjacent to schools, and also to require a public review of the statistics of what is going on with these cellphone towers.

What I found out when I first started dealing with this a couple of years ago is that it is really quite incredible the number of towers that are going up across the country. Moreover, no one seems to be keeping track of them, particularly the towers under 15 metres tall. They can just go ahead and do it without the involvement of and consultation with municipalities being required.

I do think it is a very serious issue. There are also health concerns that need to be addressed. I know that many members in my community were also very worried about the health impacts of being so close to some of these towers. In fact in Vancouver the Vancouver School Board has policies to ensure that these cellphone towers, where they are over 15 metres tall, are not adjacent or close to schools.

I know there is a lot of concern. In fact there is now a citizen movement of sorts across the country to raise awareness about the issues, both from a health and a municipal perspective, and the fact that there seems to be a complete lack of regulation and attention to this issue by Industry Canada.

I am very glad that this bill is before us today, because I do feel that the bill has been very carefully put together and will address many of the concerns that have been expressed to me by my constituents.

I really want to appeal to members on all sides of the House to look at this bill on its merit. It seems to me that this is the kind of bill that is not partisan or political in any way. It is actually responding to a very real issue in local communities, whether the MP concerned be Conservative, NDP, Liberal, Bloc, or whatever.

As members of Parliament, surely we should be responding to this issue, be willing to find solutions and be looking at this bill as a possible solution. I do hope very much that this bill can get through second reading and go to committee, because I know there are people who would very much like to come forward as witnesses and who would like to speak about the work that is being done at a local level. I am sure the Federation of Canadian Municipalities would also like to come forward. I am sure that the cellphone companies themselves would like to come forward to have a discussion about this.

What we do not want to happen is this issue being pushed under the carpet and ignored. I know there are MPs from all parties who have actually dealt with this issue. I know there are constituents phoning, emailing and organizing in local communities.

Let us respond to this issue in a non-partisan way. Let us take this bill, get it to committee, have a thorough examination and actually address something in a practical, rational and realistic way. I am hopeful that members will support this bill and we can respond to our constituents' concerns about these cellphone towers.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first I want to thank the Union des municipalités du Québec and the Federation of Canadian Municipalities for effectively supporting my bill. I also want to thank the majority of other groups of municipalities in the other provinces, which I contacted and which also were enthusiastic about this legislation.

I also want to thank all the hon. members who used their right to speak, in most cases, to support my bill, with the exception of some government members who, during the first hour of debate, raised some objections which I would like to address.

First, in his speech, the hon. member for Ajax—Pickering basically raised six points to oppose the bill. He said that Bill C-429 would increase the administrative and regulatory burdens.

In this regard, I would like to say that there is no regulatory duplication, since existing directives would simply be replaced and included in the act. Also, if the regulations included in Industry Canada's directive had been properly respected, perhaps we would not be debating this bill today, because the country would have probably experienced far fewer problems.

Some members did not support the bill. They said that some requirements in this legislation would make the existing regulations more vague. The Telecommunications Act and the Radiocommunication Act are framework laws that require very few specifics. Details about their implementation are included in the regulations. I think government members are well aware of that. Therefore, they are trying to pretend that this legislation would create chaos. The issue of uncertainty was also raised.

I think this is a denial of the current situation. In recent years, few bills proposed by opposition members were supported by the members opposite, and that is regrettable. They raise all sorts of objections that are questionable to say the least.

This bill does not create a huge administrative burden, as claimed earlier. I think it is perfectly normal for some documents to be presented to strengthen transparency among telecommunications promoters. Presenting a document explaining the reasons to not share an antenna site is already a requirement in the directive. Therefore, it does not create a new administrative burden, or a need for a new service at Industry Canada, as claimed by the hon. member for Ajax—Pickering in his speech.

The Conservatives are also claiming that the current regulations are effective because promoters follow Industry Canada requirements to the letter. In my opinion, this is a total denial of the current situation. Many problems have been experienced across Canada. It has been quite some time since certain members opposite have gone out to meet with people from municipalities grappling with these problems.

I believe that the current regulations are not really effective because they are not enforced. Penalties are also not applied. With this bill, I am putting the regulations into the legislation and adding some provisions.

The Conservatives are also claiming that dispute resolution is much more effective and accessible. It is time that the Minister of Industry listen to the stakeholders and talk with Industry Canada.

In closing, I find that the Conservatives' arguments against the bill are rather weak. I am asking my colleagues to evaluate the bill properly. It is not a huge bill that would make matters worse. It will have the opposite effect. This bill will not solve all the problems plaguing cities and their residents. But it will improve the current situation.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And five or more members having risen:

Pursuant to Standing Order 93 the recorded division stands deferred until next Wednesday, December 12, just before the time provided for private member's business.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

The Economy

[Bruce Hyer, Independent, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Mr. Speaker, there are big problems with the Conservative government's economic plan. The government has given us the largest trade deficit in Canadian history and the largest budget deficit in Canadian history. It has stalled economic growth, stalled unemployment to way over 7%, with youth unemployment double that, and now the Communist Chinese are allowed to control our key resources.

The government is heading Canada back down the road to economic colonialism where we are the colony and the empire builders are speculation investors in multinational corporations, some of them controlled by Communist China.

The Conservatives are turning the clock back so that we are merely a source of raw materials to build value-added wealth and jobs in other countries. Some plan. We continue to be hewers of wood, drawers of water and miners of raw materials like potash, aluminum, diamonds, nickel, platinum, gold and hydrocarbons, but more and more the shots are called abroad. In the energy industry, over 40% of oil production is foreign owned and growing. Natural gas is at 46% and growing and foreign ownership of the top 20 energy companies is 50% and growing.

Some are saying that is great and others are asking why we are not optimizing and maximizing our economic and social benefits through creativity, value-added industries and real leadership that stands up for Canadian jobs, our long-term economic interests and Canadian autonomy over our natural resources.

Let us hear what some noted Canadians think. Jock Finlayson of the Business Council of British Columbia said:

Most economists would argue that at least a portion of non-renewable resource revenues should be saved. Here, Canada's record can only be described as lamentable.

“Since we cannot be a low-cost producer, we should move up the value chain”, said Kevin Lynch of BMO Financial Group.

The Canadian International Council said:

Canada is increasingly dependent on the export of raw and semi-processed materials, trading low-value-added commodities for high-value-added technology.... [We must] look beyond China so we do not repeat the error of putting all our eggs in one basket....

Alison Redford, the premier of Alberta, said:

We need to ensure that our actions are fiscally responsible and fair, not only to this generation but to those who follow and this means doing what's right for the long term, and not the next election cycle.

The Conservatives are fond of quoting, often in the House, Adam Smith, author of The Wealth of Nations. He defined the invisible hand of the marketplace. I wonder if many Conservatives have ever actually read his book. He had huge caveats for his invisible hand theory, saying that: one, it only applies if there are large numbers of small and medium-sized businesses in a sector, none of which can significantly control supply, demand or price; two, corporations are a handy but potentially evil invention that exist by government charter and that those charters should be revoked if they do not meet broad national economic and social goals; and, three, corporations should never have the same rights as citizens.

What comes first, the rights of large multinationals, including Communist Chinese ones, or the rights of Canadian companies, Canadian workers, Canadian taxpayers and Canadian families?

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary for Multiculturalism]

Mr. Speaker, I find it disappointing that the member for Thunder Bay—Superior North would distort the facts and talk down the Canadian economy. We all know that the global economy is going through a very challenging time. We need to look no further than the United States or Europe where political gridlock and instability too often threatens or delays vital economic and fiscal reforms. However, in a fast changing global economy, which remains turbulent, we are also facing increasing competition from emerging economies such as Brazil and India.

This means that Canada cannot become complacent. We need to stay focused on the economy, keep taxes low and help create jobs in Canada by implementing positive pro-growth measures. That is exactly what our Conservative government has been doing since we were elected in 2006, making positive decisions to grow Canada's economy for today and tomorrow. It has proven successful.

While the members opposite would distort reality to suggest otherwise and bash Canada's economy, the facts are crystal clear. We are on the right track for Canada's economy. Let us go over some of these facts. Since the end of the global recession in July 2009, Canada has seen employment grow by approximately 820,000 jobs, the best job growth record in the entire G7. What is more, since we were elected in 2006, Canada has created over 1.4 million net new jobs, also the best record in the G7.

The OECD and the IMF predict our economy will be among the leaders of the industrialized world over the next two years. The World Economic Forum says our banks are the soundest in the world and have been for five straight years. Our net debt to GDP ratio remains the lowest in the G7, by far. All three of the major credit rating agencies, Moody's, Fitch, and Standard and Poor's, have reaffirmed Canada's top credit rating.

However, if all those facts are not good enough for the member opposite, I want him to listen to what some independent third-party observers are saying about Canada. These observers are, in fact, pointing to Canada and our economic leadership as a model to follow.

OECD Secretary-General Angel Gurria says Canada is well prepared. “You have been better prepared and therefore you've weathered the storm a lot better. You are well prepared now. Your fiscal policy, your monetary policy, your financial system [is] in better shape. And therefore, you are doing better in...the world economy.”

Canadians should listen to these trusted, impartial and independent observers when looking at the state of Canada's economy, not the bashing of it from the other side.

[Bruce Hyer, Independent, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the benefits the member is talking about must be going to some of his large multinational oil companies. His economic plan is cutting the front-line services that my constituents need in order to pay for billions in wasteful corporate tax cuts, which do not create jobs here in Canada.

In my riding, seniors are being told to go online to receive services. Small businesses have to wait many hours on 1-800 lines to get simple questions answered. Veterans Affairs is being slashed, impacting the support our veterans need and that they deserve. Our Citizenship and Immigration office in Thunder Bay is now closed. Service Canada will lose staff that handle EI in Thunder Bay. Our Veterans Affairs office will close. Our Coast Guard communications station is closing under the new budget. CRA will close our service counter. The Grain Commission is seeing the loss of 40 Thunder Bay jobs and no inward inspections of grain.

Is this good management?

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

Mr. Speaker, again, I am disappointed that the member for Thunder Bay—Superior North would talk down Canada's economy instead of having an honest debate that acknowledges the reality of the situation.

There are many global challenges and uncertainties still confronting the economy, especially from Europe. The global recovery is not yet complete and challenges remain, but Canada due to the strong economic policies of our Conservative government, such as Canada's economic action plan, has been better prepared and achieved better results than our peers in the industrialized world.

Sadly though, the member opposite voted against these measures. He voted against key support for the economy and Canadians, and chooses to talk down Canada's economy and not support it.

Citizenship and Immigration

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise this evening to talk about what I believe is an important issue. The government has been negligent in dealing with the consequences of a decision it has made. It regards the health services that are necessary for the refugees who are in Canada. These are bona fide refugees I am referring to.

Earlier this year, the minister made a decision to cut off certain health benefits to those refugees, at a substantial cost. We have had stakeholders from coast to coast to coast come out as strong advocates for these very vulnerable individuals, appealing to the government to reverse its decision.

We have since found out that the government did not do its homework. There was no consultation whatsoever done with the different provinces and the stakeholders prior to the minister making these cuts. The minister used the excuse that it would be incorporated into the budget, and that is the reason why no consultation was done.

Therefore, I brought forward a motion to the citizenship and immigration committee, of which the parliamentary secretary and I are members, to have the committee study the impact of these cuts by the minister of immigration. I brought forward the suggestions each member had received from front-line doctors who treat refugees and wrote to the committee members asking for the opportunity to come to the committee to detail proof of the adverse outcome of this reckless policy decision.

We have stakeholders who want to come before the committee. I brought forward the motion so that the committee could listen to what would actually happen as a direct result of the decisions made by the minister of immigration regarding refugees.

My question now is this. At the very least, why will the government not afford the opportunity to those who generally care about our refugees to come before the citizenship and immigration committee, so at least they can be heard? The government would then have a better understanding of the ramifications relating to the cuts that were made to refugee health care.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary for Multiculturalism]

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite knows a lot of the facts behind this, as we both sit on the standing committee.

I am pleased that the member has given me the opportunity to speak to this important issue. It allows me to provide the facts to Canadians. The NDP and the Liberals have been shamefully and purposefully misleading Canadians about this issue.

No government has done more to help those fleeing persecution than this government. Canada welcomes one in every ten resettled refugees in the world. That is more than almost any other country in the world. Our Conservative government is increasing that number by 20%. We are also increasing funding by 20% to help refugees settle in Canada.

Our doors have always been open and continue to be open to immigrants and genuine refugees. However, Canadians have no tolerance for those who abuse the system and our generosity.

These changes are all about fairness. Canadians have told us loud and clear that they want us to put a stop to illegal immigrants and failed asylum claimants receiving gold-plated health care benefits that are more generous than the benefits Canadian taxpayers receive.

These genuine refugees who the government sponsors to come to Canada and who the United Nations has found to be in need of protection, having spent years living in refugee camps around the world, have seen no changes to their health care coverage.

Asylum claimants who are still awaiting a decision on their claim would now receive care that is on par with what average Canadian taxpayers receive through their provincial government. However, our Conservative government has listened. We will no longer provide coverage, as taxpaying Canadians do not receive this coverage. This means that they will no longer receive free prescription drugs, eye care or dental care.

If the Immigration and Refugee Board finds individuals to be in need of Canada's protection, they would then become permanent residents and receive coverage through their provinces. However, the people most affected by the changes are illegal immigrants and opportunist asylum claimants. Under our changes, we would no longer provide benefits to this cohort unless it is to protect public health and safety. We will no longer pay for free braces and eyeglasses for those who refuse to respect our laws and leave Canada.

Our changes are fair and reasonable, and the response from hard-working Canadians has been overwhelmingly positive.

The member's question allows me to point out yet again that the Liberals and NDP want illegal immigrants and bogus asylum claimants to continue to receive better health care benefits than their own constituents. The taxpayers and seniors in their ridings, who have paid taxes their whole lives, have funded these benefits.

Unlike the Liberals, our Conservative government is committed to fairness and respect for hard-earned tax dollars. We will not tolerate abuse of our overburdened health care system by bogus claimants.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, we just heard the member reciting the talking points worked out by the Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism with the Prime Minister's Office, many of which are just not true.

The issue is that many bona fide refugees are being denied necessary assistance. We are not talking about bogus refugees, and so forth, in the government's terminology. Unfortunately, there are genuine, bona fide refugees who require health care services. Doctors and health care workers are requesting that the government at least listen in committee.

Will the committee listen to what the doctors have to say?

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

Mr. Speaker, again let me be clear. These changes are about restoring fairness to the system. Unlike the NDP and the Liberals, we do not believe that illegal immigrants and bogus asylum claimants should continue to receive gold-plated health care benefits more generous than those received by the Canadian taxpayers and seniors who fund these benefits.

Our changes ensure that genuine refugees and asylum claimants receive health care coverage similar to what the average Canadian taxpayer receives. No longer will we fund supplementary benefits, such as prescription drugs, eye care and dental care. Canadian taxpayers do not receive these benefits through their provincial coverage and it is not fair to ask them to foot the bill.

I urge the member to speak to his constituents and he will quickly learn that Canadians agree with our reasonable changes to restore fairness to the interim federal health program.

Abortion

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, there is tremendous irony in having this debate scheduled today, December 6, the National Day of Remembrance and Action to End Violence Against Women. We in the NDP made it clear today in the House that we demand action from the government to end violence against women and also, very importantly, that it work toward achieving equality for women in Canada.

There is no doubt that in recent decades great gains have been made, but we are losing ground. One of the areas in which that is clear is reproductive rights, which is fundamentally about women having control over their own bodies, women having a say over their own future, and our recognizing that this is part of their achieving equality. I remember growing up knowing that women and men in Canada fought to ensure that women could have that kind of control over their own reproductive rights. As a young woman now 30 years old, I am better off that decisions like those happened years ago.

Perhaps the most disturbing part of this conversation is that Motion Nos. 312 and 408, both back-door attempts at reopening the abortion debate, have been presented to the House and the Canadian public. There are all sorts of efforts being made to introduce other spin on these motions or legislation being put forward, when in reality everyone knows that it is about reopening the abortion debate. I would note that that debate took place in the late 1980s with the Supreme Court ruling, and it is something that Canadians have moved on from. We gauge that from the conversations we have in our constituencies. We know it from the polls. We know that this is something that Canadians have moved on from. In fact, when it comes to equality, so many Canadian women want to see the government taking specific action to achieve equality rather than rolling the clock back.

Many of us were encouraged that Motion No. 312 was defeated, thanks to the NDP's leadership. Unfortunately, many government members, including the Minister for the Status of Women and the minister of international aid, a department that is involved with funding around reproductive rights around the world, both voted to reopen the abortion debate. Then we found out a few hours later that yet another government backbencher was attempting to do the very same thing. To so many of us, this speaks to the double-speak of the Prime Minister telling us that he does not want to reopen the debate and yet there is another private member's bill attempting to do the same thing.

When will the government either come clean with its agenda or listen to the majority of Canadians and move on to achieve true gender equality for women in Canada?

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice]

Mr. Speaker, let me be clear. The government is opposed to reopening the debate on abortion. The issue has already been voted on by Parliament, and we do not believe that the issue should be reopened.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the succinct answer. Unfortunately, as I noted, key government members took a different position, the opposing position, to reopen the abortion debate. Despite the fact that the Prime Minister has repeated that line, we have yet another private member's motion, Motion No. 408, under a different window, trying to reopen the abortion debate.

I would be interested to know from the member, but very importantly as well, from the government, whether or not they will throw out Motion No. 408, or will they continue to fan the flames of a debate that Canadians want to move on from and roll back the clock on women's rights?

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I will repeat in French that the government has no intention of reopening the debate on this issue. We are opposed to reopening the debate on this issue and that has already been voted on. We believe that the matter is closed.