House of Commons Hansard #124 of the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was chair.

Topics

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:05 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON

Madam Chair, as my colleague should know through repeated answers to her questions in the House these recent months, our government has no intention of reducing ozone monitoring at our three principle Arctic ozone stations in Alert, Resolute and Eureka.

My colleague should know since she questioned our lead scientist, Dr. Karen Dodds, on this matter that there are considerations of some streamlining at the southern ozone monitoring stations, which will not compromise in any way the quality of the excellent work our scientists are doing.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Madam Chair, the southern stations are Kelowna, Stony Plain, Bratt's Lake, Churchill, Egbert, Goose Bay and Yarmouth. I would like to ask the minister which ones will be streamlined.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON

Madam Chair, I put that question to Dr. Dodds recently, and those decisions have not yet been taken.

This is a continuing process. We will ensure, as I have reassured this House any number of times, that ozone monitoring in all its dimensions will continue. Canada will continue to host the World Ozone and Ultraviolet Radiation Data Centre in Montreal and provide world-class service.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Madam Chair, will the minister specify how many of the Brewer stations will be supported under the new budget?

For the record, they are Alert, Eureka, Resolute, Saturna Island, Stony Plain, Bratt's Lake, Winnipeg, Downsview, Montreal, Goose Bay and Halifax.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON

Madam Chair, as I said, with regard to our three Arctic stations, we will continue operating there as we have. With regard to the southern stations, again it is our scientists who make those decisions, not the minister.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Madam Chair, there is still no answer since September.

What is budgeted for CORALNet lidar operations, whether at their existing locations or in support of the oil sands monitoring plan?

Several scientists are required to fully operate and analyze data from CORALNet network. How many scientists will be supported for working with CORALNet under the new plan?

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON

Madam Chair, again, as I have informed my colleague a number of times in the House, LIDAR is not used in Environment Canada's ongoing air quality monitoring, but we will maintain our capacity for possible future applications. It is an important technology, but at the moment, there are no clients in Canada who wish to avail themselves of the technology. However, as I have said, we will maintain our capacity in this area.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

I will try again, Madam Chair.

How many scientists will be supported for working with CORALNet under the new plan?

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON

Madam Chair, my colleague seems to have more information about a new plan which is not in the firmament.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

No answer on the number of scientists, Madam Chair.

Last week's report by the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development reinforced what we already knew. The Conservative government lacks a plan on federal contaminated sites with clear measurable expectations. In fact, the report said there was no lead agency on the file, there was a lack of standard site closure reporting system, and there was a risk that contaminated sites would not be addressed.

Parliament does not even know if it got value for its money because a performance measurement and reporting system does not exist.

With the bulk of funds going to four large project sites and the total estimated financial liability for federal contaminated sites $500 million higher than the amount of dedicated funding that remains, how does the government plan to protect the health and safety of Canadians with the other 10,000 sites that need to be cleaned up when it does not have the money to do it?

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON

Madam Chair, my hon. colleague's question is, if anything, more under-informed than the comments offered by the environment commissioner a week ago.

As I have explained, our government has invested $3.5 billion in a federal contaminated sites program. However, the program is aimed only at the largest, the most seriously contaminated, locations.

Overall in Canada, there is a list of perhaps 22,000 contaminated sites, most of them relatively small. However, the lead agency in each of those cases is either the federal department or the agency which has the responsibility. There are 16 bodies which have the lead in this case. The federal government's lead is on only the most seriously contaminated sites. The environment commissioner did compliment us on our work to date. We have closed 42% of the major contaminated sites that we have targeted. We are halfway through a 15 year program, and we will proceed.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Denise Savoie

That ends that round.

I will now go to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission B.C.

Conservative

Randy Kamp ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and for the Asia-Pacific Gateway

Madam Chair, I would like to focus my comments on environmental assessment and the work of the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency. This, of course, is a key part of the environment portfolio and a very important part of what the federal government does. The funding being considered as part of the main estimates is necessary for the continued application of the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act, and preparation for the implementation of the proposals in Bill C-38 should that legislation receive royal assent.

Environmental assessment sits at a crucial intersection between the environment and the economy. Environmental assessment is a way to ensure responsible resource development. It allows the Government of Canada to assess and mitigate the environmental impacts of projects that represent billions of dollars of potential investment for Canada.

While founded upon the best of intentions, the current federal process is overly complex and dated. Accountability is spread across government, and there have been inconsistent application and delays as a result. This situation actually harms the economy. Project proponents face unnecessary costs. Investment decisions are put off. Jobs for Canadians are put on hold. The argument can be made that this actually harms the environment, too.

Limited government resources are consumed by unnecessary process steps and the need to assess small projects that pose minimal risk to the environment. There are also few enforcement provisions. The current law is based on concepts and approaches from the late 1980s. It is time to build on our record and move forward. It is time to modernize federal environmental assessment.

A responsible resource development plan sets out a path to modernization that relies on four pillars: one, making reviews more predictable and timely; two, reducing duplication; three, strengthening environmental protection; and four, enhancing consultation with aboriginal peoples. The new Canadian environmental assessment act supports all four pillars through responsible and certain timelines, better integration of federal and provincial responsibilities to avoid duplication, fair and consistent enforcement measures to ensure the environment is protected, and an explicit requirement to ensure that changes to the environment that affect aboriginal peoples are assessed and mitigated.

Environmental assessment is receiving much attention, inside and outside the House, as part of the debate on Bill C-38, the jobs, growth and long-term prosperity act. Let me take this opportunity to set the record straight on some of the myths that have unfortunately dominated this debate.

The first myth is that the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency budget has been cut by over 40%. Perhaps members have heard that. The opposite is true. At a time of fiscal restraint, the agency's capacity has been protected. Its budget is in fact increasing by 5% as a result of budget 2012. Additional funds are being provided for consultations with aboriginal peoples. Fundamentally, the provision of funding to the agency will ensure that it continues to provide Canadians with high quality environmental assessments.

The second myth permeating this debate is that environmental assessment is somehow being gutted by Bill C-38. A brief comparison between the current law and the bill is in order to explain this point. As I just noted, the government is providing additional funding to the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency because we expect it to do more, not less.

For an environmental assessment to be required under the current act, there has to be a federal decision associated with the project. No decision means no environmental assessment, even though there might be serious effects on matters within federal jurisdiction. The bill proposes to address this gap. An environmental assessment may be required when there are adverse effects within federal jurisdiction and the project is on the project list or specifically designated by the minister. A federal decision about the project is not a prerequisite.

When there is a federal decision associated with the project undergoing an environmental assessment, the environmental effects of that decision will be assessed. This is a requirement today. This is a requirement in the updated act.

The current law requires follow-up programs for major projects. These follow-up programs verify if mitigation measures are protecting the environment. Unfortunately, application of this requirement has been fragmented across government. Follow-up information is not being put to the best use possible.

The bill proposes to fix this problem. Follow-up programs would be mandatory after all environmental assessments. The results would flow to one of three responsible authorities: the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency, the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission and the National Energy Board. These bodies would use this information to help manage unanticipated environmental effects and improve the practice of environmental assessment.

A final area of comparison relates to enforcement. The current law has no enforcement provisions. This is a very significant shortcoming. As parliamentarians we expect bills to be enforced when they become law. Bill C-38 proposes to make this the case for environmental assessment through several measures.

The act would prohibit a proponent from proceeding with a project identified in regulations unless it underwent an environmental assessment or the agency decided that one is not required. At the end of an environmental assessment, proponents would have to comply with the conditions set out in a decision statement. Federal inspectors for the first time would have the authority to examine whether conditions in an environmental assessment decision statement were met. Finally, there are proposed penalties for violations that range from $100,000 to $400,000.

Bill C-38 proposes to close gaps in what projects can be subjected to a federal environmental assessment. It would strengthen how follow-up information is managed and used. New enforcement powers would be provided. All of this adds up to a strengthening of environmental assessment in a significant way.

Now I would like to turn to the third myth. Some are saying that the government has not consulted nor heard from Canadians on how to improve environmental assessment. There has been a wealth of input from various sources under both this government and the previous government. Let me run through some of the highlights.

In 2003, the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development issued a report entitled “Beyond Bill C-9”. Among other things, the standing committee recommended creating a system of environmental assessment permits. Bill C-38 proposes to do so through the enforceable environmental assessment decision statement.

The standing committee also recommended that the agency look into the use of regional environmental assessments as a means to deal with cumulative effects of multiple projects and activities. This examination of the potential of regional studies was done in cooperation with provinces and territories through a task group of the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment in 2008-09. The result can be seen in proposed provisions for regional studies.

In 2004, the government appointed the external advisory committee on smart regulation. Environmental assessment was the issue that generated the most complaints from stakeholders during this study of the broader federal regulatory system.

The smart regulation committee recommended the creation of a single federal agency for environmental assessment, better integration of federal-provincial assessments, timelines and more emphasis on follow-up programs. Proposals consistent with the spirit of these recommendations are all found in Bill C-38.

In 2009, the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment also issued a discussion paper and held consultations on the issue of one project, one review. The outcome is reflected in the bill's proposal for substitution and equivalency.

These new tools allow provincial environmental assessments to substitute for, or be recognized as equivalent to, a federal review as long as the substance of requirements of the act are met.

The Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development members, many of whom are in the House tonight, reviewed the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act this past year. The majority of the committee's recommendations have found their way into the bill, including the use of a project list to avoid requiring assessments of small projects, such as a blueberry washing facility.

This project list approach includes a safety net authority for the Minister of the Environment to require the environmental assessment of a project not identified in the regulations. This power could be used in unique circumstances where a relatively routine type of project is of concern because of its proposed location, for example, in a sensitive environmental setting.

Two standing committee reports, a public consultation by federal and provincial governments and a blue ribbon committee have all contributed to the development of this important bill.

We have listened to what is being said about environmental assessment over the past decade. We are moving forward to protect the environment while promoting jobs, growth and long-term prosperity for all Canadians.

Madam Chair, I know the Minister of the Environment is also interested in matters relating to fisheries. In fact, we co-operate on a number of different areas and his department enforces section 36 of the Fisheries Act.

It is somewhat sad that, even with the best of intentions, we can have the best regulations but if there is no way to enforce those regulations we will not get anywhere. One of those anomalous situations is when, for example, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans issues an authorization for some work to be done and attaches conditions to that authorization and then someone does not abide by those conditions of the authorization, there is no ability in the current Fisheries Act for that to be addressed. So there have been many calls, maybe because of that and other things, to improve the current habitat enforcement provisions. The responsible resource development plan announced a number of measures to enhance compliance and enforcement and I wonder if the minister could outline some of those for us.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:25 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON

Madam Chair, I thank my colleague from Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission for shining some very clear light on the constructive improvements to the Fisheries Act.

The responsible resource development act seeks to modernize and strengthen environmental protection for natural resource developments in Canada. Our government made the first round of reforms to the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act in budget 2010, when we started the process of providing predictable timelines for project assessments. We are continuing this process in a government-wide approach now, including assessments conducted by the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, the National Energy Board and the Department of Fisheries.

At the end of these assessments, proponents will be unable to proceed unless they comply with conditions set out clearly in the assessment. As I told the House a few moments ago, failure to comply with mitigation measures can result in significant monetary penalties from $100,000 to $400,000. These penalties help give teeth to our already effective environmental protection regime.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:25 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC

Madam Chair, as I mentioned, we have worked collaboratively on responsible resource developments and the focus of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans is on the protection of commercial and recreational aboriginal fisheries. I wonder if the Minister of the Environment could comment on that focus and tell us whether he agrees.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:25 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON

Madam Chair, as my colleague knows, but I think I should share with this House, there are a number of provisions that provide and enable enhanced protection. These include establishing ecologically sensitive areas, such as a critical spawning habitat for salmon or other species, and if any activities are proposed within these areas, proponents would be required to submit plans for review. As my colleague said, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans may then require higher levels of protection for such areas.

Other measures include increased fines and penalties for offences, the creation of enforceable conditions for ministerial authorizations and a duty to notify requirement that states that proponents shall report an occurrence that results in serious harm to these important fisheries.

Our government made these reforms, in 2010 with regard to improvements in the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act and we have built on those with regard to the responsible resource development legislation that is now before this House.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Denise Savoie

This completes this round of questions and comments.

The hon. member for Beauharnois—Salaberry has the floor.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 p.m.

NDP

Anne Minh-Thu Quach NDP Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Madam Chair, my questions will concern the cuts.

The cuts to the environment portfolio announced in budget 2012 total $88 million in ongoing funding.

What programs will be eliminated?

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON

Madam Chair, I would like my hon. colleague to amplify a bit further her interest in the programs of the department.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 p.m.

NDP

Anne Minh-Thu Quach NDP Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Madam Chair, in fact, it would be the minister himself who could enlighten us on this matter. What we want to know has to do with the full environment portfolio: what programs are affected and how many jobs will be cut in total, given these cuts of $88 million in ongoing funding.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON

Madam Chair, we are focusing on the essential services of the department, which we have looked at very carefully. We have made some very tough choices with regard to programs that do not relate to the core obligations and services provided by Environment Canada. Those programs will be trimmed and the affected staff will be treated in a considerate and respectful way.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 p.m.

NDP

Anne Minh-Thu Quach NDP Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Madam Chair, it seems to me that my question was very clear. It is the minister who is responsible for his department. A total of $88 million will be cut, and we want to know which programs will be affected by these cuts. Could he please list the programs?

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON

Madam Chair, it is a very large and multi-agency department. However, now that I get the gist of my colleague's question, the answer is that our budget is remaining relatively flat from the 2010-11 budget year to 2011-12. There are some very slight changes. I do not know where she got the figure that she is referring to.

Environment—Main Estimates, 2012-13Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 p.m.

NDP

Anne Minh-Thu Quach NDP Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Madam Chair, it is a little absurd that the minister himself is not capable of assessing programs that will be slashed by his own department, under his authority. Eighty-eight million dollars seems like a lot of money.

His team is incapable of putting their fingers on the figures, despite the fact that there are three people with him who are supposed to come up with the answers. So I will switch topics and give the minister some time to come back to that a little later.

I will now talk about Environment Canada's Report on Plans and Priorities, which was recently published and details personnel requirements on a program activity basis for the next three years.

In fact, 94% of the job cuts fall under one single program, which deals with climate change and air quality. The staff working for this program will be cut back by 14% over a mere three-year period.

The programs' objectives concern the health of Canadians and the economy. If these objectives are important, why get rid of so many jobs?