House of Commons Hansard #27 of the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was cyberbullying.

Topics

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I want to make it clear that the residents I represent in Winnipeg North recognize the degree to which cyberbullying is so harmful to society as a whole.

Today we have legislation before us. However, if the government were genuine in wanting to pass legislation to deal with the issue, I believe it could be done in a fashion that would receive all-party support.

In terms of expediting this issue so that we could have legislation passed through all the different levels before Christmas, the key is that we have to be able to take the issue of cyberbullying out of the bill that is being proposed and bring it forward as a stand-alone bill. All members of this House could accurately represent their constituents and see this type of legislation pass to become the law of the land if we recognize cyberbullying for what it is.

Cyberbullying is a horrific crime that needs to be dealt with through all-party support. Would the member not agree that singling out that issue and passing it would be the most effective way to get something done between now and the end of this year?

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question. I agree with him that cyberbullying is serious enough to warrant being examined separately and should have its own bill. From the title, you would think that the bill before us is just about cyberbullying. However, when you look at the bill more closely, you see that it addresses many other fairly contentious issues. I wanted to point that out.

The NDP's position is that we must study many issues set out in this bill individually.

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Mississauga—Erindale Ontario

Conservative

Bob Dechert ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice

Mr. Speaker, I listened to my colleague's speech and to his answer to the previous question. I think he said splitting the bill into two pieces, one with just the Criminal Code offence of cyberbullying and another with the investigative powers in it, would be a good idea.

I wonder if he could tell us if he has had an opportunity to read the federal-provincial-territorial report on cyberbullying, and in particular recommendation 4 that report, which talks about the investigative tools that are absolutely necessary to allow the police to gather evidence so that they could actually lay the charge and convict someone of cyberbullying. If it were simply stripped down to the offence itself, obviously there would not be.

I wonder if he could explain the comment by his colleague, the member for Windsor—Tecumseh, when he said they know a number of investigations that have gone on and have failed and of a number of charges that have been laid and have failed simply because the terminology in the code was not up to modern-day standards. I wonder if he could tell us which of the recommendations in recommendation 4 of the Cybercrime Working Group report he would not include in the cyberbullying bill.

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his question.

The only problem is that this specific bill includes measures that are fairly invasive of people's privacy. These measures have been introduced before. Given that the Conservative government is very right-leaning, this bill could lead to government interference and people being monitored a bit too closely. The only concerns there could be are about surveillance because the Conservatives introduced these measures in the past with very little success. Now, they are trying again, despite the fact that Canadians oppose these measures.

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to rise in the House to speak to Bill C-13.

The first part of the bill is very clearly a critical issue that we have been dealing with in Canada. I would hope that every member in this House would support expedited action, across the board, to prevent cyberbullying and the inappropriate, illegal, non-consensual distribution of sexual information, in particular related to children.

I welcome the fact, as do my colleagues, that the government is finally coming forward with a more reasonable bill, and that we do not have the slinging of insults. We appreciate the respect being given to this matter and the more respectful bill, and perhaps it is because the bill is now being tabled by the Minister of Justice. We hope we will have a better balancing of rights to privacy and the rights of children, and other people who are harmed by inappropriate acts through the Internet.

I do wish to bring to the attention of the House that this is not the first time that members of the House have sought action on the issue of cyberbullying and action, particularly where youth have been harmed, and in some cases have committed suicide, because of extensive bullying.

I would like to bring to the attention of the House the motion M-385, tabled by the member for Chicoutimi—Le Fjord in October 2012. It was debated in this House. The member recommended that there be a broad-based strategy on dealing with cyberbullying.

It is noteworthy that just before I rose to speak a member across the way referenced the report on cyberbullying that was put together by federal, provincial and territorial ministers of justice and public safety. The very first recommendation is that the working group acknowledged the benefits of a multi-pronged, multi-sectoral approach to the issue of cyberbullying and called for action in a comprehensive manner.

That is very appreciated. Obviously, the justice ministers and the public safety ministers across this country recognize that we need to have clarification in criminal law. However, we need a lot more than that.

The member for Chicoutimi—Le Fjord recommended that. He recommended a broad-based strategy that all members of the House could develop together and, heavens forbid, reach a consensus on the measures we need to move forward on. Very sadly, the Conservative members all voted down that motion.

Also, members on this side brought forward Bill C-540, a private member's bill, from the member for Dartmouth—Cole Harbour. In that bill, he recommended the creation of an offence to produce or distribute intimate images of an individual without their consent. That was the response to the tragic suicide of Rehtaeh Parsons in his province.

In addition, another member on this side, the member for New Westminster—Coquitlam, tabled Bill C-213, which very succinctly addressed the matter of communication for the purposes of child luring.

Very clearly, the members of the official opposition strongly support action by the government to address child luring and to address and punish any cyber crime that would lead to bullying and could cause serious harm or suicide of our children.

Canadian families would clearly be grateful for expedited action, certainly the families of the victims of previous bullying incidents would. Most importantly, we would like to prevent any such incident from ever occurring again. I think all members of the House would concur with that.

What we want to do is to protect our families from harm. I concur. I join with my colleagues in strongly supporting the first provisions of this bill, which deal with and address cyberbullying. I am certain that we did our best to try to suggest to the government that it would be wise to expedite these measures by dividing the bill.

We may need to strengthen the investigative powers but, as I will speak to later on, we need a lot more than stronger criminal law; we need to make sure that our enforcement officers are fully capable of actually taking action on these matters.

However, as I mentioned at the outset, the most important measures we need are ones to prevent these acts from occurring at all, not simply taking enforcement action after the fact.

Why do we have these issues? Why are Canadians, in particular legal experts and privacy experts, raising concerns with the majority of the provisions of this bill? I am informed that 37 of the 47 clauses of the bill do not directly relate to cyberbullying. Therefore, it appears eminently reasonable that we would have further debate on those provisions to expedite the cyber crime provisions.

One of the matters that was of deep concern to Canadians from coast to coast to coast, in particular legal scholars, was the previous provision of a bill that was tabled in the previous Parliament. It would have allowed for intervention into accessing Internet material without a warrant. When objections were raised, the then minister of public safety accused anybody who had raised any concerns or had proposed amendments to the bill of being pro child pornography. That caused the government to ultimately withdraw its bill, and I think appropriately.

We are encouraged that the government has moved forward now with a more reasonable bill. However, legal experts are raising some concerns with the direction the bill is taking on the way it is imposing conditions on warrants. Those are critical matters.

We have long-standing legal precedents on when it is appropriate to allow for the seizing of material and where it might be a violation of a charter right. The prerequisites to obtain a warrant have been long debated in the courts. If we are to move in any way on shifting the burden on having to show cause before obtaining a warrant, it justifiably merits a good discussion in committee over those matters. However, the government has decided that it does not want to divide the bill, so unfortunately all matters will be going to committee.

I previously mentioned the matter of the warrantless disclosure. An equally concerning matter is the possibility for Internet providers to voluntarily disclose information. I would suggest that is a matter that also needs to be looked at closely. People exchange information of a private matter day in and day out. There should be some level of protection when there is an exchange of that information.

As I only have a few minutes left, I would like to speak to a matter that comes from my personal experience. I was involved for many years in the field of environmental enforcement. One of the lessons I learned from that is that the best way to deter a crime is to have a high probability of detection and punishment.

In order to make that happen, most agencies now, when they are developing legislation, are simultaneously taking a look at the capacities of their enforcement agencies to deliver. They ask whether they have enough personnel and whether they are appropriately qualified. This is an area that police and enforcement officers have been identifying for quite some time, that it takes very special skills and training.

I have not seen the government come forward with a parallel skills, training and capabilities strategy. I would encourage it to move expeditiously on that, so that the moment the bill becomes law, the government is immediately capable of enforcing that law.

In closing, the bill is going in the right direction, generally speaking. However, it will be important for particular matters, including the changing of the burden of proof and warrants, to be explored at committee with the appropriate experts.

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Mississauga—Erindale Ontario

Conservative

Bob Dechert ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice

Mr. Speaker, my colleague made some very interesting points in her speech.

I want to ask whether she is aware that there is a significant difference between Bill C-13 and the previous Bill C-30. For instance, all production orders, all search warrants, for retention of any of this information that would be important for the police and prosecutors in order to properly prosecute a case for cyberbullying, is subject to prior judicial oversight. I wonder if she could tell us whether she knows that or if she has a comment on that.

Also, I wonder if she could take a look at recommendation four of the Cybercrime Working Group report, which she referred to in her speech, and tell us which of those investigative powers she thinks is valid. The Cybercrime Working Group report said that all of those investigative powers were needed in order to support an offence of cyberbullying.

Could she take a look at those to see if she is prepared to accept them as part of the cyberbullying bill, or does she still want those separated into two different bills?

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, that is a very fair question. I spoke to those matters, but I am happy to address them again.

We are hearing the government state that it has majorly shifted and that the bill now requires warrants. The issue that is still outstanding is what the burden of proof is for those warrants and whether the government is inventing a different burden of proof in these matters. That is a matter that merits legal expertise and discussion at committee, to give reassurances to Canadians.

On the matter of recommendation four from the intergovernmental report, I will note specifically that it recommends improved judicial oversight. That is exactly the matter that we wish to discuss. Is it in fact the same level of judicial oversight that we would normally anticipate in the judicial process, or is it being varied? If we can be reassured on that, then I think there would be fewer objections to the bill.

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, through lines of questioning I have been able to emphasize how important it is that we have legislation.

It could be a private member's bill. I made reference to the Liberal member for Vancouver Centre. Members of the Liberal Party have been very clear that cyberbullying is a horrific crime and we need to take action and bring in legislation that will deal with the issue.

I want to pick up on the point that the member referenced in terms of deterring crime. This is something we are not necessarily seeing from the government. To use the example of schools, if we want to prevent cyberbullying from taking place in the first place, taking a proactive approach within the school system, the curriculum and so forth, could go a long way to preventing some of these horrific crimes. That is not to mention the workforce and so on, but just to focus on the school boards.

I would ask the member to comment further. She made reference to deterring crime and that not only is government responsible for bringing in legislation where it is necessary but also for providing good solid programming to prevent some of these crimes from taking place.

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, another of my colleagues is going to address the question about the need for more educational programs.

However, the issue of deterrence is different. Prevention means there are education programs in schools and communities, in the government, on websites and so forth. Deterrence means there are provisions and penalties in law that will deter.

However, the most critical piece is that there has to be some kind of reasonable probability that the crime will be detected. That means there needs to be some kind of strategic risk-based strategy on how the government is going to focus its resources on enforcing this bill. That is what we have not heard from the government. Frankly, we have not heard that from the government in every bill it has brought forward and that I have spoken to. A law is fine, but if the appropriate resources and a strategic plan are not in place to target the crime and provide a deterrent, then it is all for naught.

One of the things that the government might consider adding is innovative sentencing. That occurs in regulatory offences, and maybe it would be appropriate in this case as well.

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the terrific member for Sackville—Eastern Shore. It is a great honour to share my time with him.

We have been talking a lot about the bill. At the end of my comments, I will talk about some of the concerns I have about how this bill has been put together by the government and the concerns that we have heard from my colleagues about other aspects of the bill that have been included.

What I would like to talk about is what most of us have shared in the House: our concerns about cyberbullying and the influence of the Internet as a tool used by those who want to frighten, abuse and intimidate people.

Three names come to mind in recent past. We have lost the lives of some very vulnerable young people. Amanda Todd, Rehtaeh Parsons and, in Ottawa and indirectly related to the issue we are talking about, Jamie Hubley. These are names that brought this issue to the forefront and I want to mention their names because it was really quite something when we lost these young people. There was an outpouring of sentiment, but it also caused legislators like us to reflect on what we could do. That is very profound, because, as we know, that does not always happen. It was a moment where we saw members of Parliament and members of provincial legislatures try to look at how we could deal with this issue.

I would like to take it and relate it to what my friend from Edmonton—Strathcona was talking about. Let us take another look at this, beyond the scope of this law, and talk about the issue a bit more. We need to look at the fact that it is not just the Internet.

Before I was elected as a member of Parliament, I was a teacher. On many occasions, I had to deal with young people who were very isolated. They were people who came to me because they were feeling vulnerable. There were a number of cases where I had students who were contemplating suicide. Because they had no one else to turn to, as a teacher, I ended up being the person who they dealt with.

It always took me by surprise how few resources there were for young people to turn and get help. That is something we can work on with the provincial governments, providing people with assistance. It is not just about the Internet. It is about the fact that people are isolated. When I was teaching, there was certainly a concern about how the Internet was being used. Now we have social networking, which is part of the issue we are talking about now. It is interesting. There is a paradox. This young generation is the most connected generation in the history of the world. My sons can Skype with someone on the other side of the world and connect with people. The paradox is that we have the most connected generation, but we also see some of the most isolated young people ever.

As we have heard many times, the technology is such that people can go inward if they are in a cycle of depression, if they feel isolated, or if people are intimidating or bullying them. They can just go into the virtual world. Mr. Speaker, you are a parent. You know that the virtual world is fraught with all sorts of danger and concerns. We need to address that. As others have said, and we agree with them, the bill is about making some changes in the Criminal Code, but it does not solve the problem. We have to look at prevention as well.

When I was teaching, I worked with the Media Awareness Network. It is a fantastic not-for-profit group that deals with media literacy. I was able to avail myself of its resources when I was in the classroom. What we did was talk with young people about the messages they were getting in the media, now on the Internet and social networking sites, with which they were bombarded.

They are being bombarded with messages about how they should behave, what they should do and what they should buy. For young women, in particular, it is about how they should look. They are being pushed to consume things or buy things to somehow become a better person, when we know that the essence of someone's personality is about the values they carry and the influences they have to make them better people, not how they look, what they buy or what they consume.

I look at the curriculum in our schools, the resources for young people and it is not enough. We can do our jobs as parents, but let us be frank about this. When kids reach adolescence, they actually turn away from their parents and are more influenced by their peers. In this virtual world that has been created through the Internet and technology, with Facebook, Twitter, et cetera, there are obvious temptations for people to reach out to others to essentially give them confidence in who they are. This is where we saw the problems for the people I mentioned, like Amanda Todd.

Just recently, we heard from Amanda Todd's mother, who was speaking about media awareness, I believe it was last week in Winnipeg. What she was saying to parents, educators and everyone was that we needed to connect with each other to help our young people. Yes, we need to ensure we know what our young people are accessing on the Internet, on Facebook, et cetera, but we also need to have that human dimension. That is where we need to see our schools and our communities reaching out to people to bring them in and for those who are feeling vulnerable, to offer opportunities for them to share with us what their anxieties are.

I have talked to numerous educators. My wife is a teacher as well. What we have noticed lately is that there is much more anxiety among young people now than there ever was. Again, it is connected to how people are connected. They are feeling bombarded by Facebook, with Twitter and texting, where people who want to lash out or isolate someone can do it without really facing someone. That is the whole problem here. It is the anonymity.

Therefore, there are a lot of anxious young people. We see this in the skyrocketing number of them who are being identified with anxiety disorder. This is, frankly, what we should be looking at because once people are feeling anxious and they turn to social media to find friends and community in a virtual world, we then see where they can really descend into chaos. We see luring happening there. We see people who try to pretend to be friends draw people in and then abuse them.

If we are going to understand the issue that we are talking about today, we need to go beyond just changes to the Criminal Code, which of course we support.

Let us see the federal government work with our partners at the provincial level to come up with really smart media awareness programs that are well resourced, and I mentioned the Media Awareness Network is a terrific resource, if we are to help young people be aware and be literate when it comes to what they are confronted with on line.

This is not about the government doing it for them. Let me be clear about that. This is about the government resourcing groups that are already working on these issues. It means that we all take this issue with a lot more depth than just saying we will change the Criminal Code and that will somehow fix it. It means we have to look to those who are victimized.

I will just underline a couple of groups that are obviously important here. I think of trans-youth and gay and lesbian youth. I think of those who are different because of the way they look, or the fact that they may be introverted. We need to reach out to them.

I wish Bill C-13 was just about that. I wish the government had not brought in these other measures, which we have some concerns with about privacy that have been noted.

What I want to finish off with is, let this not be the end of this issue. Let us look at how we can better reach out to young people. Finally, a smart suggestion would be to reach out and listen to young people, because they will have as many ideas as we have on how to help young people who are so isolated.

My final recommendation would be for the government to work with the provinces to actually create spaces to hear from young people, for them to make recommendations on how to combat cyberbullying, as we call it, but deep isolation. Therefore, at the end of the day, we can say that we have been able to help prevent these horrific, tragic deaths we have seen, in the names of Rehtaeh Parsons, Amanda Todd and Jamie Hubley.

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Mississauga—Erindale Ontario

Conservative

Bob Dechert ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice

Mr. Speaker, my friend is quite right: bullying and cyberbullying are about more than just Criminal Code provisions. They are a social issue that needs to be addressed by schools, by non-governmental organizations and by community groups. In fact, he is probably aware that the government has supported for over two years several programs developed by the Canadian Centre for Child Protection on just the issue of bullying and cyberbullying. The government has provided over $10 million for these programs. The Canadian Centre for Child Protection operates two websites: cybertip.ca and needhelpnow.ca. They provide counselling and preventative information to young people about the threat of social and consequences of social media.

The member mentioned the sad case of Jamie Hubley. Has he heard these words from his father, Allan Hubley, about Bill C-13? On November 20, he said:

When we were younger, you always knew who your bully was, you could do something about it. Now, up until the time this legislation gets enacted, they can hide behind that. Not only does it start to take the mask off of them, through this legislation there is serious consequences for their actions.

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for pointing out the resources that exist, and obviously I support those initiatives. Mr. Hubley is a local councillor and I have joined with many in our community to go public and talk about the issues within our community. Many of the students within Jamie's school were responsible for either being bystanders or participating in the deep isolation for a young gay man. We need to address that.

I would finally point out that, along with some of the resources that my colleague mentioned, there is also a terrific group called “Digital Voices”. It is another group that is working together to give strategies to young people. What it talks about is “stop, think, connect”: stop and think about what they are saying, what they are doing online to young people; then connect with people if they are feeling deeply isolated. These are the kinds of things we need to continue to talk about.

Finally, I will just underline that I had a youth summit just two weeks ago to hear from young people about what they thought we should be doing, not just on this issue but on the economy. If we start really listening to young people and having them as part of the decision making, we will go a long way further than we have already.

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, there is no shortage of individuals and advocates who really want to see action being taken on the cyberbullying issue. I suspect all members of Parliament would love and welcome the opportunity to see legislation put into place as early as before the end of this year. That would be most helpful.

My question for the member is this, and we have heard this suggestion in the House over the last couple of days, whether it is the Liberal Party or the New Democratic Party, who have said it. Could we not take out certain aspects of the current legislation and then allow that to ultimately pass through so we are dealing specifically with the issue of cyberbullying in which all Canadians want to see some action? Would the member expand on that point of how quickly we could pass something through all levels that are required to be passed in order to have something effective for cyberbullying before even Christmas time of this year?

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, yes, that is why we have moved to split the bill and then to get it passed at all stages as quickly as possible.

I want to leave with these words from Carol Todd, Amanda Todd's mother, about what happened. She said, “She got trapped in the Internet.…Someone convinced her she was beautiful…that she should be her friend…and it turned out to be someone quite evil.

That really stuck with me. What I am saying is that yes we can put those provisions in and yes we should support them. However, at the end of the day, we have to look at what this young woman was going through and ask ourselves what we were doing as a community. What were we doing as a society to allow someone to become so isolated? Our work has to continue on helping people who are isolated. That is why we should set up ways for young people to inform us and the government and give them the space to effect what goes on. We should do that in all our communities and that is the challenge I put out to all my colleagues, as well as to the government formally.

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Ottawa Centre for a very respectful speech in regard to this very serious issue of cyberbullying. A couple of our NDP colleagues have already moved legislation forward in this regard in order to discuss and combat the scourge of cyberbullying that is affecting our country.

When I was a little kid growing up, we always heard the expression “sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me”. Now it is “gigs and bytes you may not like”. That is what I heard the other day.

The reality is that this is a new era now, one in which our young people are communicating back and forth at lightning speed, in many cases with people they do not even know. In many cases, these are people who prey upon them.

For years now, I have had legislation on the books that came from former MP Chris Axworthy on Internet child pornography. In it we were basically trying to get the Internet service providers to have some responsibility to monitor the sites and, when something of that nature came forward, to inform the police and make sure that appropriate action was being taken.

There is no question that this legislation is a good start. We hope to get it to committee in order to get it split and be able to move it very quickly, as my colleagues on both sides have said very clearly.

However, I want to focus on something that is a little more personal in terms of the family.

We can have all the legislation that we want. We can have all the enforcement, punishment, and everything else that we could have in terms of this issue, and yes, it would deter and possibly stop some people from doing it, but it will not be the end of it all.

If we look at drunk driving, we see tough measures against it across the country, but people still drink and drive. The United States has the death penalty in certain states, but the reality is that murders are still happening. The reality is that we can have the toughest cyberbullying legislation in the world, but it will not eliminate it completely. It would deter it and reduce it, but it would not eliminate it.

However, what may assist these young men and women when they feel the effects of cyberbullying is the conversation with their parents and their peers.

I have two daughters, aged 25 and 22, who grew up with the Internet and all of that kind of technology, but my wife was very clear and careful to ensure that a conversation took place on a regular basis about being very careful of what they typed into computer and being very careful about what they looked at on Facebook, and now the tweets and so on.

That conversation has to take place. The government or opposition members cannot be the sole source of remedying this situation. This has to be a national conversation across the country. I encourage all families, all legal guardians, and everyone else to have that national conversation with their children so that they understand the dangers and the threats of the Internet and what happens on Facebook when they post pictures or say certain things that can be interpreted in the wrong way.

When I grew up in Vancouver, I grew up in a group home. My parents had over 400 children come to our home over 23 years. Some stayed with us for a few hours, some for a few weeks, a few days, or a few months. Some even stayed for a couple of years.

The one thread that connected each and every one of those kids was love and respect. All these kids did not feel the love and they did not feel they had any respect. They did not feel they were contributing members to our society. They all felt that it was their fault. They all felt that it was a burden. When a 10-year-old tells my parents, “I can make more money on Davie Street in 20 minutes than I can working at home for a week”, there is a serious problem.

These kids are vulnerable and subject to anyone out there that will prey upon them. This is how cyberbullying works. Just as it was in the old days, they prey upon those who may be vulnerable. They prey upon those who may be a bit curious as to what is going on. Then the children get into that vortex or trap, and the next thing is they become victims.

Amanda Todd, Rehtaeh Parsons from Nova Scotia, and Jamie Hubley in Ottawa were three beautiful young people who had a tremendous amount to offer. They had the opportunity to become great citizens of our country. Who know what they may have been able to have done with their lives? Unfortunately, with the pressures they felt, they felt they had no other way out, for lack of a better term, than to end their own lives.

When a young child commits suicide, it affects not just their own family, and again my condolences and thoughts and prayers go out to all those families and friends; when a young child commits suicide, it should affect every single Canadian citizen. As my colleague from Ottawa Centre said so clearly, “What were we all doing?” What responsibility did we have when these kids were starting to look for help? What responsibility do we have, not just as politicians but as friends, as neighbours, as family members?

We cannot just avoid it and say that it is the school's responsibility or the government's responsibility. It is our collective community responsibility to reach out to the disenfranchised in our society.

The LGBT society, for years and years, has advocated just to have normal relationships with the rest of society. For years, society has put them down because they were different.

I represent one the largest Black communities in Canada, the original Black community of Preston. For years and years, the racism that community had to face was unconscionable. In many cases, in certain areas, it still exists.

We have a long way to go. I go to many schools, and we always hear the word “tolerant”. We hear that we are tolerant of each other. I am asking all parliamentarians and all Canadians to throw that word out. We should get the Webster dictionary to throw that word away. We should be celebrating our diversity. Whether someone is from Asia, Africa, Europe, or elsewhere, and whether someone is aboriginal, gay, straight, lesbian, or transgender, it should not matter.

We should all be equal under God's eyes. We, as parliamentarians, should set the example of equality for all. Whether one is disabled, young, man or woman, child or senior, it does not matter: we should all be treated equally in this regard. We should respect one another. We can disagree, but we do not have to be disagreeable.

I am hoping that that national conversation will take place so that no more Amanda Todds and no more Rehteah Parsons have to happen, and that when these young children feel they are under a tremendous amount of pressure, they can not only go to their parents but should be able to reach out to the general society, and we should be there with open arms, saying “We know you have a concern and a problem, and we are going to help you walk through this.”

This legislation is important. It is critical that we get it done right. Apparently there are 37 provisions in this bill that have nothing to do with cyberbullying, so I am hopeful that when the bill gets to committee, the committee members can agree with expert advice to ensure that we get it right the first time.

I am sure not one parliamentarian in this House wants to make a mistake on this one. It is too critical to get it right. However, even if it is the gold-plated model and it gets sent through and it is done, it may not prevent future cyberbullying. What may do it is going back to the personal responsibility that we all have in our community, right across this country and for that matter internationally, to ensure that when someone feels pressure and feels there is no other way out except to commit suicide, we are able to help them.

A friend of mine works at the Kids Help Phone. Even though she is not permitted to tell me the specific nature of the call or the names, when these kids call that number, I know that my friend goes home literally a changed person every night because of some of the calls she takes. She volunteers for that. These kids are reaching out for help.

I am hopeful that we get the legislation right. The government will have our support when it is done correctly, and we will get it to the committee, but on top of that, we need to ensure that all of us—family, friends, parents, and community members right across this country—work together collectively to ensure that we all take responsibility in the raising and the future and the care of our children.

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech. He is certainly one of the gentlemen of this place. I had the pleasure of working very closely with the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore on the veterans committee and it was a pleasant experience indeed, even though we are in different parties.

The hon. member referenced the fact that 37 of the 47 clauses in the bill are taken from the e-snooping bill of Vic Toews, which we were promised would not come back. The clause that is most troubling, frankly, is the one that would give immunity to holders of electronic records if they voluntarily disclose them. This would include telephone companies and Internet service providers. However, that disclosure is not limited to investigations around cyberbullying; it is wide open.

My question to my hon. colleague is on the breadth of the legislation. Does he have any concerns with respect to the e-snooping and online surveillance capacity of the legislation?

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, the member is absolutely correct.

We have to make sure that we get the legislation correct and that it deals with what we are talking about in terms of cyberbullying. The legislation contains other components that are not related to cyberbullying. We are hoping that the government will understand that, take those provisions out and have them discussed in a separate piece of legislation. That would enable us to focus strictly on the matter at hand, which is cyberbullying.

We should not muddy the waters on this one. We owe it to the memories of Jamie Hubley, Amanda Todd and Rehtaeh Parsons to get this right, and especially for their families.

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

Mississauga—Erindale Ontario

Conservative

Bob Dechert ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice

Mr. Speaker, I want to commend the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore for his speech.

There are a couple of quotes that I remember from his speech. He said that all parents need to have a conversation with their children about cyberbullying and about bullying in general. We absolutely agree with that. I think everyone here agrees with that. He also said that it is our collective community responsibility to give young people the tools they need to protect themselves against any form of bullying. I commend him for that, and I think we all agree with that as well.

Earlier we talked about the Canadian Centre for Child Protection and the things it is doing with NeedHelpNow.ca. The member for Ottawa Centre mentioned Digital Voices. These are all tools that are available now to help people.

The member also mentioned 37 clauses that have nothing to do with cyberbullying, but I do not think he is correct. If he looks at recommendation 4 of the working group report he would see that they require data preservation demands and orders, new production orders to trace a specified communication, new warrants of production orders for transmission data, improved judicial oversight while enhancing efficiencies in relation to authorizations, as well as warrants and orders and other amendments to existing offences to give the police the investigative power they need to in fact make the cyberbullying provisions work.

I submit to the member that if we were to take out many of the provisions he is highlighting in that number, the cyberbullying bill that we are all here to debate today would be toothless and unenforceable.

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, the last thing I would confess to is having a legal mind, but I do know that when the bill gets to committee we will be inviting those experts who understand the legal technicalities of the warrants, the search premises and all the stuff within the parameters of the bill.

It is rather ironic that I am talking about cyberbullying when I myself do not even use a computer, smart phone or BlackBerry in any way, shape or form. However, the reality is that many of my colleagues and friends do, as do their families and kids.

Whatever provisions are added or deleted, at the end of the day what is most critical, and I am sure the hon. member would agree, is that the bill is done right, that there are no court challenges, that the Supreme Court years down the road will not strike it down because of some technicality.

We have to make sure of that collectively. It would not just be the government's fault. It would be all of our faults if we do not get it done right the first time.

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to start by applauding my many colleagues who have worked tirelessly to address cyberbullying. The hon. members for Chicoutimi—Le Fjord and Dartmouth—Cole Harbour both feel strongly about that issue and have shown admirable dedication. The member for Gatineau also spoke on this issue on Wednesday. In her eloquent, nuanced and compassionate speech, she explained that politicians have a duty to take action on this issue.

I would like to touch on two topics today. First of all, this cyberbullying bill does talk about cyberbullying, as one would expect. However, it also touches on a wide variety of issues that have nothing, or very little, to do with cyberbullying. As these issues are covered in the bill, they must be discussed, although we would have preferred to stay focused on the most pressing issue.

The most pressing issue, of course, is cyberbullying. The traditional bullying that used to happen face to face in schoolyards has now become an after-school, underhanded and often anonymous activity. By its very nature, this type of bullying can occur at any time rather than only during the school day. There is no refuge; victims know that the violence will keep on going even if they try to ignore or escape from it.

Everybody can be a victim and it can happen anywhere. We know, however, that the victims are most often our children. With the current technology, it is all too easy to conduct heinous and malevolent attacks, a behaviour that likely reflects a more generalized malaise, as well as a lack of goals and optimism in our society. This new and violent phenomenon has a long-term impact on the lives of thousands of young people, as well as other individuals and families.

As is the case for any phenomenon that affects the health, safety and well-being of Canadians, elected officials must recognize the problem and take action. It is no longer a question of this being a good initiative, it is a question of our responsibility as elected officials. It is our duty to work together to identify the most effective legislative response as quickly as possible to help those who are persecuted and are suffering even today. It is our duty to not create distractions that could delay the implementation of measures, or even worse, undermine this objective.

Therefore, I wish to salute the people in this chamber who have tackled this issue, recognized the importance of this problem and listened to parents and those working in the schools. I am referring to the member for Chicoutimi—Le Fjord in particular, who channelled his long-standing passion for this issue into Motion No. 385 to create a national bullying prevention strategy. Unfortunately, in spite of my colleague's motion, we still do not have a strategy. I continue to hope that the government will move forward on this issue.

My colleague, the member for Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, made a point of meeting with the families and stakeholders following the death of a young girl whose name we are unfortunately all familiar with. This is a human tragedy that has been given a great deal of media coverage in recent months. We must also recognize the good intentions of our colleague from Vancouver Centre, who has also worked on this issue. We should also note this government's good intentions, because it is consulting the provinces and territories in order to find solutions. Everyone here agrees that we have a responsibility towards those who are victims of cyberbullying.

Bill C-540 illustrated the urgent need for action and, to that end, sought a consensus among parliamentarians devoid of any partisanship. The Conservatives told us that we had to be patient because there was work to be done, with the provinces and territories in particular, before such a bill could be passed. In the case of such crucial issues, it is good to hear about co-operation rather than confrontation.

In the end, the government introduced a bill very similar to the one brought forward by my colleague from Dartmouth—Cole Harbour. Bill C-13 would make it an offence under the Criminal Code to publish, distribute, transmit, sell, make available or advertise an intimate image of a person, knowing that the person depicted in the image did not give their consent, or being reckless as to whether or not that person gave their consent. The bill also allows courts to make an order to seize and electronically destroy the images and mentions the recovery of expenses incurred to obtain the removal of such images.

It becomes apparent that these clauses, in large part taken from Bill C-540, actually make up a small portion of Bill C-13. They account for roughly six or seven of the bill's 47 clauses. According to this Tuesday's Le Devoir, only three of the bill's 65 pages actually deal with cyberbullying.

I get the urge to end my speech right there, to sit back down and to rise again on a completely different subject, so that I can address the 40 or so other clauses in the bill that deal with completely different issues.

It is not a single bill we have before us, but two, three or even four bills.

It is as if, in response to the SARS crisis of 2003, the government had insisted on abolishing VIA Rail before moving to establish the Public Health Agency of Canada. It makes no sense. It is like holding an urgent public issue hostage.

The second part of Bill C-13 amends not only the Criminal Code, but also the Competition Act and the Terrorist Financing Act. It deals with banks' financial data, the theft of telecommunication services and telemarketing.

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

It is my duty to interrupt the hon. member, as it is now time to move on to private members' business.

It being 1:30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper.

The hon. member will have about 15 minutes remaining to conclude his remarks the next time the bill is before the House.

Financial Administration ActPrivate Members' Business

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

moved that Bill C-473, An Act to amend the Financial Administration Act (balanced representation), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, the government recently prorogued, so here we are once again, debating my bill, Bill C-473. I am pleased to speak to this bill today and to speak on behalf of the thousands of Canadian women who aspire to a high-level career.

I would like to begin by saying that I would have preferred to see this issue settled sooner. I would have preferred that its legislative course had not been interrupted by prorogation. That way, today we would be taking action, not still debating.

The issue of equality between women and men in a fair and equitable Canadian society was always at the heart of my previous professional life and now, today, as a politician, I am truly proud to be able to contribute to this cause.

As introduced in the House last February, Bill C-473 proposes a simple but effective improvement to the current legislation governing our public financial administration.

Specifically, the bill would give Canadians balanced representation on the boards of directors of crown corporations. It is a corrective measure to help us reach our goal of parity on the boards of directors of Canadian crown corporations.

The question of gender equity in the management of our crown corporations is not unknown to Canada's Parliament. In the House, the Senate and committees, the fact that still too few women are involved in the management of our political institutions and Canadian businesses remains an important problem that we must consider if we want to be able to say we live in a society with equal rights.

I remind members that this bill has to do with equality of representation and affects only crown corporations, not private companies. Since Canadian women are taxpayers just like men, it is as though they are shareholders of crown corporations, just like men.

Their taxes go towards crown corporations, so it makes since that, as shareholders, they should have the right to be heard, considered and represented in proportion to their demographic weight in society.

In spite of this, and while Canadian society has made many strides toward women's rights in recent decades, the figures show that the government lacks the vision and will to make this issue a priority.

The most recent data show that over 2,000 Canadians occupy positions in more than 200 crown corporations, organizations, boards of directors and commissions across the country.

Of all the positions available on the boards of directors of these organizations, only 27% of senior management positions are occupied by women. The situation is even worse for presidents of boards of directors. The most recent figures show that only 16 of the 84 presidents are women.

Sadly, we are a long way from the equal representation that would reflect Canada's demographic makeup and offer professional growth and development opportunities to our talented women.

With women as 27% of directors of crown corporations, we are far behind the 40% reached in most Scandinavian countries. Other countries such as Spain, France and the Netherlands have introduced incentives for other kinds of institutions.

As our country has evolved, it has established a robust democratic process for appointments to fill available positions on the boards of our crown corporations.

Ministers manage the appointments within their own portfolios, and submit their nominations to the Governor in Council.

As part of the selection process, criteria are established to define the essential qualifications for a given position. A number of mechanisms are used to attract a large number of potential candidates, such as the Governor-in-Council appointments website, executive recruiting agencies, newspapers and specialized publications. Canadians who express an interest are evaluated according to the requirements of the position they apply for.

In regard to the balanced representation issue, one of the problems our society had to address was that, in the past, there were not enough women with the necessary qualifications to meet the requirements of the position. This problem disappeared over the years, with mass education for Canadians and women's access to post-secondary studies.

These days, according to a number of experts who have looked at the issue, one stubborn problem that persists is that we are still looking for candidates in traditional recruitment pools, where men are still in the majority. Two factors we thought had almost disappeared from contemporary society are still very much in place: the “old boys' club”—the traditional recruiting network for executive positions—and the familiar “glass ceiling”, which, unfortunately, is still hard to crack for women aspiring to professional careers at the highest levels.

My bill proposes an indirect approach to eliminating these two stereotypes. Once the boards of our crown corporations have to comply with gradual gender representation quotas, those responsible for recommending appointments will have to show their creativity and willingness to expand the limits of their recruiting methods and broaden their search for candidates with the required skills to non-traditional recruitment pools.

Canada has a highly qualified female workforce, and we can be proud of that. Our working women include more than 60,000 professional accountants, 20,000 lawyers, over 16,000 engineers, thousands of university professors and hundreds of actuaries. There are therefore plenty of women with the talents and skills required to fill these positions. All we need is to be given the resources, as a society, to go out and recruit them.

Now, the question is why the government would create quotas rather than voluntary incentives. It must be said that some groups and organizations have come out against this kind of mandatory reinforcement measure. The justification that is usually given is the fact that the government should not become involved in the choices of outside organizations, like businesses.

First, let us remember that my bill does not affect any organizations other than crown corporations. I would like to remind hon. members of this again because, unfortunately, the Conservatives tend to want to discredit my bill based on the fact that they took action by setting up an advisory committee in 2012 in order to find ways of increasing the number of women on company boards of directors.

However, my bill has nothing to do with corporate governance. What is more, the committee was supposed to provide the government with clear recommendations in the fall of 2013 and still has not done so.

In short, I would like to point out that the problem of unbalanced representation on the boards of crown corporations will not be resolved through proposed solutions that deal with corporate governance. Let us not confuse the two subjects. Let us work together to find appropriate solutions that will show the government's real desire to change things by taking action to achieve more balanced representation, meaning more women, on boards of crown corporations.

Members should also understand that the proposed choice of quotas is based on the results of careful reflection by experts, published studies and consultations with professional organizations. That reflection also took place in the light of results observed in other countries, where the problem of balanced representation has been addressed in one way or another.

On this point, I would like to share with my colleagues some more enlightening remarks by Anne Golden, chair of the Conference Board of Canada from 2001 to 2012, who noted that at the current pace, [the way things are going,] it will take 151 years to achieve equity at the top of the organizational ladder if the government does not step in with a mandatory measure.

Another clear example that justifies the establishment of quotas rather than voluntary measures is Norway's failure in this area. In 2003, Norway was the first country to pass legislation providing for gender equality on the board of directors of public limited companies. The legislation extended to crown corporations and came into force in January 2004.

To get to this point, it is important to know that the government had originally tried to negotiate voluntary quotas with the private sector to reach 40% representation of women on boards, with an ultimatum that restrictive legislative measures would be introduced should the desired gender representation not be attained by July 2005. A survey by Statistics Norway showed that by the deadline, only 13% of companies complied with the voluntary quotas, with women representing only 16% of board members.

As a result, legislation was applied to public limited companies. That legislation came into force in January 2006. This example shows that voluntary measures simply do not work.

Quebec, an example from our own backyard, is worth mentioning, since it has been very successful. Quebec is the only province to have passed legislation aimed at achieving gender equality on crown corporation board of directors since 2006. Efforts in this regard have proven successful, to say the least.

In December 2011, the deadline by which crown corporations were to have achieved gender equality within the five-year period, 141 women and 128 men held positions on the board of directors of 22 Quebec crown corporations. Women made up the majority, or 52.4%, of directors appointed. Unfortunately, balanced representation in the number of women and men appointed to the board of each crown corporation subject to the act still needs to be achieved.

In the case of both Norway and Quebec, the legislation did not cause any problems or result in any additional paperwork. Needless to say, crown corporations are obviously very well managed.

Imposing quotas, which could be temporary, could prove to be an effective tool in making our public institutions more democratic. Given how hard it is to achieve gender equality without corrective action, it is the government's duty to bring in effective methods to correct this injustice. Things will not simply change over time.

I would like to share with my colleagues some other important things I have thought about. I hope that they will consider this when we vote in the next few weeks. A 50/50 quota is the most neutral gender-based measure. It avoids all discrimination. Quotas do not discriminate. They compensate for the current barriers that prevent women from exercising their fair share of representation.

Women, as citizens, have the right to balanced representation, especially when the taxes they pay are used to finance the crown corporations. Women who sit on boards of directors add different points of view, diverse knowledge and a change in the dynamic. It is good for business.

These days, Canadian women are just as qualified as Canadian men. It is very important that the government hire outside of traditional, male-dominated recruitment circles. Imposing quotas has not caused any confusion, injustice or problem whatsoever in the jurisdictions where they have been applied. That is why I think using quotas is the best solution for the boards of directors at crown corporations, when we have such a success story in our own backyard.

I may have focused till now on the legislative measure proposed in my bill, but I would now like to discuss the time it is taking to achieve equality between the sexes when it comes to our financial administration. Various approaches have been adopted by countries that have implemented similar measures and, in the case of Quebec, the provincial government gave itself a five-year timeframe.

In light of the examples we are familiar with and in order to maximize the chances of success, Bill C-473 proposes a realistic six-year timeframe. The current figures have female representation hovering around 27%, so it would be realistic to put in place the tools necessary to reach 30% in the next two years, 40% in four years and, ultimately, parity in six years.

Obviously, if a board of directors were composed of an uneven number of members, it would stand to reason that there would be an imbalance in the female-male representation.

Before concluding my speech and moving on to questions and comments, I would like to take the few minutes remaining to invite my colleagues from all parties to take advantage of this unique opportunity to showcase the skills and aptitudes of female professionals across Canada.

It is my profound belief that, with this bill, Canada has an opportunity to emerge from the stone age, position itself as a global leader in gender equality, and catch up with many other G20 countries.

Giving competent women an opportunity to realize their full potential and contribute to the development of their community is a question of fairness, rights, democracy and economic prosperity. Everyone wins, and I do hope my colleagues here today will come to the same conclusions as I have on the matter.

Financial Administration ActPrivate Members' Business

1:45 p.m.

London North Centre Ontario

Conservative

Susan Truppe ConservativeParliamentary Secretary for Status of Women

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would just like to mention that crown corporations operate at arm's length from the government and that we on this side of the House believe in having women on boards.

Statistics show that companies that have women on their boards are more profitable, but that does not mean that we have to legislate quotas. Women have earned the right to be appointed based on their hard work and their experience, not simply because they are women.

As Parliamentary Secretary for Status of Women, I am proud to say that since 2007, more than $46 million has been approved through the women's program at Status of Women Canada for projects that promote women's economic security and prosperity. We believe that a more competitive, corporate Canada requires appointments based on merit and excellence.

There are many very qualified women across Canada. I have had the privilege of meeting many very talented women in my riding of London North Centre. For example, there are three female presidents of our hospitals, but there are many more just like them. I know that they would not want to sit on a board simply because they are female and someone needed to fill a quota. It is an insult to women.

I would like to ask the member opposite why she thinks women are not qualified enough to sit on their own merit when they sit on a board.

Financial Administration ActPrivate Members' Business

1:45 p.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, I find the minister's arguments quite offensive. First off, a great number of Canadian women are qualified, overqualified even. The number of female graduates of public administration programs has risen since 1988. These women are ready to head crown corporations. No one is forcing them to do so. We merely need to give them the right to.

I would remind the minister that these are ministerial appointments. Until now, the Conservatives have done very little to advance the status of women. They made drastic cuts to Status of Women Canada and have reopened the abortion debate. I do not believe we need any lessons from the Conservative Party.

Financial Administration ActPrivate Members' Business

1:45 p.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would first like to congratulate my colleague on her bill and her speech. There is no doubt that we have made some progress toward greater gender balance and equality. Much remains to be done, however. What my colleague's bill proposes are quotas.

I would like to point out that quotas are in place in countries like Norway, Spain and France, just to name a few. My colleague has aptly defended the idea of establishing quotas to achieve gender parity on corporate boards.

In her opinion, what still needs to be done to achieve gender parity?