House of Commons Hansard #14 of the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was senate.

Topics

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for his comments and ringing endorsement. That is exactly the goal that we are seeking to achieve here.

We want to have the Prime Minister testify in a forum where there is no opportunity for deflection, diversion or pivoting, just the straight, unvarnished truth. Canadians deserve that.

The hon. member clearly sees that and I thank him for his support.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, the essence of the motion, if passed, would compel the Prime Minister to come forward and testify under oath. The issue before members of Parliament is whether they believe the Prime Minister has and should come clean with Canadians on this issue. I wonder if the member could provide a very brief comment on that.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Mr. Speaker, it is well past time. Canadians are paying attention. They want the Prime Minister to come clean. They are not satisfied with the answers they get in question period. One day Nigel Wright resigned, one day Nigel Wright was fired and today he is no longer on the payroll. This is wordsmithing.

It is time to drill down into the facts. It is time to get into a forum where the unvarnished truth can come out. That is what is needed. That is the purpose of the motion. This is what Canadians want.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre Saskatchewan

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure once again to stand in this place and debate a motion brought forward by my colleagues in the third party. It should be no surprise to the members of this place that I certainly will be voting against this motion. There are several reasons for that, only a few of which I will touch upon today in my limited time.

Primarily, I will be voting against this, as most members should, because this is nothing more than a political stunt. The motion brought forward is something the Liberals brought forward hoping will embarrass the government and to try to cause damage to the government, and this is nothing new. I do not begrudge the Liberals the fact that they are bringing a motion forward that they think can gain them some political favour; that is what happens in this place. However, I find it unfortunate that we are doing so at their first opportunity in this new session of Parliament, when there are so many other important issues to debate.

Not only that, I do not know if I am the only one who recognizes the absolute delicious irony in the motion that the Liberals brought forward. What they want to discuss is the fact that there was a $90,000 cheque paid inappropriately, I admit, but paid back to the taxpayers of Canada to try to stem the abuse made by one of our senators. We can contrast that to the Liberal Party's track record. It is the party that perpetrated and embodied the largest political scandal in Canadian history. I speak, of course, of the sponsorship scandal in which millions of dollars was stolen from Canadian taxpayers and that money was then diverted into Liberal bank accounts. Was any of that money repaid? I can answer that partially because the Liberal Party of Canada did agree—

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the member is making very strong allegations that should at least be substantiated to a certain degree. Is the member prepared to indicate what Liberal bank accounts he is specifically referring to?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I am not sure that is a point of order. The hon. member for Winnipeg North can certainly ask questions during the question and comment period.

The hon. parliamentary secretary.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, if the Liberal members would have shown the same level of enthusiasm trying to get to the bottom of the sponsorship scandal as they have with this motion today, we might have found out where those bank accounts were held.

According to the results and conclusions of the Gomery commission, we know that millions of dollars were stolen by the Liberals and funnelled back into Liberal accounts primarily in Quebec. Even though the Liberal Party admitted culpability and repaid a million dollars of the money that was stolen, there are still tens of millions of dollars that have been unaccounted for. Justice Gomery noted that there was $40 million that he could not account for, the reason being that the terms of reference set by the Liberals when they established the Gomery commission prevented Justice Gomery from going beyond this narrow perspective. Therefore, he was not able to pursue the trail of that missing $40 million, that stolen $40 million.

I would suggest for members opposite that if they truly want to deal with corruption and stolen money, money that was taken from taxpayers, they only have to look at themselves and try to explain to Canadians why that stolen money has still yet to be recovered.

However, I digress. We all know the credibility problem the Liberals have on that issue. I will not spend too much more time on that.

Besides the irony that I note in this motion, I also note with great interest why, outside of for the obvious political partisan reasons, the Liberals brought forward a motion such as this today. The reason is quite obvious to me. It is because they have nothing else to speak of. They have no policies on virtually anything that is of importance to Canadians. This was their opportunity had they wanted to speak to the Canada-Europe trade agreement. They could have offered critiques, suggestions and analysis. They chose not to. Why? Because they have no position. They have no position on the economy, on the environment and on health care.

The only position and policy brought forward by the Liberal Party to date under the leadership of their new leader, the member for Papineau, is that he would like to see a policy that legalizes marijuana. Whether that is an appropriate policy is up for debate and probably will be debated at some future time, perhaps even in this Parliament. However, I find it passing strange that would be the first policy that the new Liberal leader decided was worthy of comment.

If Canadians were to be well-served by the Liberal Party, or any member in the House, we should have a debate that deals with issues that are of importance to Canadians. The economy is the number one issue that all Canadians are still gripped with. There is a lot of worldwide uncertainty about the state of the economy. We are not out of the woods yet. However, rather than deal with an economic issue, the Liberals decided to bring forward a motion to the House on this day that they believe would do nothing more than advance their political partisan purposes. I will let them live with that, but I would have thought the new leader would expect more of his caucus than to leave this motion on the floor.

I know it is the proper practice of the House to deal with a motion before us, even though I think it is frivolous and a political stunt, so let me try and set some of the record straight.

What we have heard in this Parliament by many members of the opposition, not just the third party but also the official opposition, is a lot of unfounded allegations and a lot of spin. There have been many attempts to try and torque an issue beyond any sense of normalcy. Therefore, let us examine what we know. Let us deal with the facts as we know them, facts that have been confirmed.

First, we know there was an inappropriate payment by Nigel Wright of $90,000 to cover the inappropriate expenses claimed by Senator Mike Duffy. That is indisputable. That is agreed upon by everyone, including Mr. Wright.

Second, we know, confirmed by Mr. Wright and the Prime Minister, that Mr. Wright acted alone. It was his decision to provide a $90,000 payment to cover Mike Duffy's expenses. He did not inform the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister has stated this in the House on many occasions. Nigel Wright has confirmed this.

Nigel Wright, frankly, has no reason to do anything but tell the truth on this issue. It is not in his best interest to say that the Prime Minister was unaware of this payment. He simply stated the facts and told the truth. The Prime Minister has confirmed that.

We know now that Mr. Duffy tried to get the Prime Minister to agree to repay his expenses. The Prime Minister refused. On February 13, he had a conversation with Senator Duffy and he told him that he must repay his own expenses. To the best of the Prime Minister's knowledge, that is exactly what happened. Senator Duffy went on national television and said that he had repaid it and that he had taken a mortgage on his house to repay the money. We know this is a lie.

The facts are simply this. Mr. Wright acted inappropriately. He made a decision on his own. The Prime Minister was simply unaware of it until May 15, when he heard media reports. As soon as the Prime Minister was aware of what had transpired, he went public to confirm it.

Is this a cover-up? Clearly not. How can he cover something up when he admits that a transgression had been made and that improper payments had been made? It simply does not make sense.

Let me deal with a couple of examples that underscore what I have been saying about how the opposition attempts to spin a story like this out of control and how it likes to torque up its rhetoric to try to make a situation that should never have occurred in the first place sound even more ominous and more sinister.

There is one example that the members of the opposition have been fond of raising in the last couple of weeks and that was, in fact, just raised by the previous speaker on the Liberal benches. Somehow, there is this great flip-flop on behalf of the Prime Minister as to whether Nigel Wright resigned or was fired. To me, that is largely irrelevant. What we know is that Mr. Wright met with the Prime Minister after the story of Mr. Wright's payment came to surface. They both agreed that what he did was wrong. They both agreed that he had to leave the Prime Minister's employ.

Was it a resignation? Was it a dismissal? It does not matter. The issue is what he did was wrong and he had to leave. They both agreed. For that reason, Mr. Wright is no longer employed by the PMO.

The members opposite seem to think, for some reason, that the differentiation they point out between a resignation and a dismissal is something that should concern all Canadians. Why? What is at issue is whether Nigel Wright should have paid the price for his actions, and he did. The Prime Minister was insistent upon that. Nigel Wright agreed with it. Whether he officially resigned, or whether he was asked to resign or whether he was dismissed is of no consequence, as I argue it.

The fact is that he admitted a wrongdoing. He informed the Prime Minister that he had kept the information secret from him, and the Prime Minister agreed with Nigel Wright that it was unacceptable. Both of them agreed that he could no longer work in the Prime Minister's Office.

Where is the controversy? Where is the furor that the opposition is trying to raise, based on dismissal versus resignation? That is why I say it is largely irrelevant. What is relevant is that what Nigel Wright did was wrong and he had to pay a price, as does Senator Duffy.

As the Prime Minister and many others in this place have noted on several occasions over the last few weeks, not only did Senator Duffy inappropriately claim expenses which he did not incur, he has still not repaid that money. The taxpayers have recovered the money, but that was because of Nigel Wright's actions. Senator Duffy still has not repaid the money.

Nigel Wright paid the price for his wrongdoing. Senator Duffy should do the same.

Let me give yet another example of how the opposition is trying to torque this story into something larger than it needs to be, how it is trying to take small examples of words, of actions, and make a point that somehow this proves the Prime Minister's involvement in all of this; because it actually makes no sense whatsoever.

The latest thing coming from members of the opposition, and I find this fairly amusing, is that they are defending Nigel Wright and saying the Prime Minister somehow threw him under the bus. On one hand, the opposition members have continually said the Prime Minister must come clean, be more forthright and candid in Parliament about what occurred, yet when the Prime Minister did exactly that by saying he was deceived by Nigel Wright, the opposition members are now saying the Prime Minister is changing his story and throwing Nigel Wright under the bus. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The facts are these, as corroborated by Mr. Wright himself. Mr. Wright did not tell the Prime Minister of his plans to secretly repay Mr. Duffy's expenses. That is a deception. Frankly, I think the world of Nigel Wright. He is a man of extraordinarily high character. Unfortunately, in this particular case, he exhibited extraordinarily poor judgment. He made a terrible mistake and it has cost him. He has admitted his mistake.

When the Prime Minister answers questions in this place by saying that he and the Canadian public were deceived by Mr. Wright, he is merely stating the facts. He is simply telling the truth. Once he had done that, the opposition members found yet another reason to criticize the Prime Minister, asking how he could, weeks ago, call Mr. Wright honourable and now throw him under the bus by saying he has deceived him. Well, he did. Nigel Wright did not tell the Prime Minister about his plans to give a personal cheque to repay the obligations of Senator Duffy. I am sorry. As much as I am a fan of Nigel Wright, I say that is deception. Nigel Wright admits he deceived the Prime Minister, and he admits he was wrong in doing so.

While I know the opposition members are seized with this issue and spend almost all of their time in question period trying to embarrass the Prime Minister and our government, the facts are very clear. Number one, a $90,000 cheque was given by Nigel Wright to cover the improper expenses claimed and received by Senator Duffy. Number two, the Prime Minister was not aware of this plan to use Nigel Wright's personal resources to repay the money. Number three, both Nigel Wright and the Prime Minister agreed that it was inappropriate that he continue to work in the Prime Minister's Office, that it was appropriate that he be sanctioned, and sanctioned he was.

The final issue that should be of importance, not only to members of the House but to all Canadians, is that the actions of certain senators in the other place should not be tolerated. Those actions have proven to be unacceptable, improper and potentially illegal. We will see what the results of the RCMP investigations into some of the senators' actions say about that.

Without question, not only should they be required to repay the inappropriate expenses they have taken from the Canadian taxpayer, but they should be sanctioned. That type of action, abusing the public taxpayers' funds, should not be tolerated by members of this place and certainly not by members in the other place. Our position, which we have been stating from the outset, is simply that because wrongdoing was uncovered by certain senators, they have to have consequences attached to their actions. There should be sanctions.

Those sanctions, in our view, are to remove those senators from the public payroll. Hopefully later today, we will find that the Senate itself, as an institution, agrees with our position and has taken remedial action to remove these senators from the public payroll.

I would only ask that members of the Liberal caucus in this place tell their members of the Senate caucus in the other place to join with us and our senators in demanding sanctions for wrongdoing, because that is what it comes down to; nothing more, nothing less.

When the public purse is abused, when taxpayers are abused, when wrongdoing has been uncovered, sanctions and repercussions must occur. We are asking for that. Canadian people are asking for that. We simply ask Liberals to join with us in administering those sanctions.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the deputy House leader with great interest, as always, and I have to say that we do sometimes find common ground. He began by saying that he thought this motion by the Liberals was perhaps a political stunt. On some level, I have to agree with that.

I mean, it is true that, while our leader had exchanges with the Conservatives 43 times last week, the Liberals only asked three of 45 questions on this issue; so why this motion today? The member is right: it is the NDP that has been taking this issue seriously and that has been taking leadership on this file.

Moreover, we know that the Liberals voted against the NDP motion to restrict senator travel and partisan activities. That too puts their motivation into question. Of course, we know they want to deflect attention from their own corruption in the Senate with Liberal senators like Mac Harb.

I do have a question for the deputy House leader.

We see him rise a lot in the House. People watching this debate here today will remember that he often stands up and tables documents in the House on behalf of the government. I wonder whether he would agree today to table all of those documents in this House that are related to the issue of the Prime Minister's knowledge of Nigel Wright in the Duffy affair. I wonder whether he would agree today to stand in the House and table all documents, so that we can ascertain when the story will actually stop changing.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, there is, of course, a procedural mistake that my colleague on the opposition benches makes. Since I am not a minister, I could not table those documents even if I had them.

I will point out, as we have pointed out many times in this House, that our government and the Prime Minister's Office is co-operating fully with the RCMP investigation. We make no bones about the fact that there is an investigation. We will do whatever it takes to co-operate with officials as they try to determine exactly if, for example, there are charges to be laid against certain senators. We will certainly co-operate with any request the RCMP makes to provide documents. That is, without question, something we have confirmed many times.

I know the member opposite is trying to play a few political games here, but the reality is that our government is co-operating fully. We want to ensure that, if there has been wrongdoing on behalf of certain senators in the other place, if there has been fraudulent activity, if there has been misappropriation of funds, not only are they sanctioned by the senators themselves but the appropriate authorities make their sanctions known, and we hope it is done quickly.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I know the parliamentary secretary to be of very strong character, and he has done a lot of good work here in the House of Commons.

I guess the challenge for me is why we are not waiting for due process. I know people are angry and there is all this political fallout, but at the end of the day, we as parliamentarians would not be respecting process.

If things were going along, the investigation was being done and all of the information was apparently coming forward, why was it not possible for the government to let the RCMP complete its work so that due process is seen?

All of us as parliamentarians, and the parliamentary secretary in particular, have argued on behalf of due process on many issues many times and have been quite successful. To see the rush to judgment now is an issue with which I have great difficulty.

I have no sympathy for the violations; and whatever comes will come because they deserve it. The question is: Why is it that the Senate cannot wait until the RCMP is finished its work and then take the necessary action?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for her kind comments about my character.

Even though I believe her to be sincere in her comments about believing that due process has not been achieved, I have to argue that, in fact, it has. This issue has been percolating in the Senate for several months now. There was an audit completed by Deloitte & Touche that has clearly indicated that abuses were made, that improper expenses were claimed and received by senators. That is due process.

She referred to the ongoing RCMP investigation. I tend to agree with her: let it do its work because it is investigating whether criminal charges should be laid. The wrongdoing on behalf of these senators has already been established. They took money improperly from expense claims that they did not incur. That is indisputable. Therefore, how can the member opposite suggest and argue in this place that due process has not been followed?

What we and our colleagues in the Senate are suggesting is that those senators who have been proven to have taken improper expenses be sanctioned, be removed from the public payroll. That is not to say that they will not have their day in court. If the RCMP chooses to lay charges, they will have due process in our system of law in this country. However, the fact is, and it is indisputable, that wrong expense claims were made, improper payments were made, and we have to take action now. That is our obligation.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Independent

Dean Del Mastro Independent Peterborough, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate the member for what I would call an outstanding speech in the House.

I have to question the member about the hypocrisy of this motion before the House today and who has brought this motion. If we look at the party, it is the party of the sponsorship scandal, a party that has refused to be clean and straight with Canadians about where that money went and what riding associations in Quebec actually benefited from it, and there are over $40 million still outstanding. We look at a party whose members, some of whom are still in the House today, paid rent payments to family members—something that is a matter of fact—from the House of Commons, and paid that money back after being caught. I cannot say who paid it back or who it was paid back to, but I am told that it was paid back. It is this party, the Liberal Party, that has brought this motion to the House.

The abuse of the public trust in terms of the public funds, especially for members who are well paid—they are well paid in the other place, too—is despicable. I would like to hear the member's comments on that.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. friend, the member for Peterborough, for his comments.

As I mentioned in the body of my speech a few moments ago, I found it at least to be—perhaps being gentle on the Liberals—deliciously ironic that they raised this. My friend used the term “hypocrisy” and that is probably more accurate. Yes, the Liberal Party of Canada has a history of abusing the taxpayers' trust, not only in the sponsorship scandal but, as my friend points out, there have been a couple of instances where Liberal Party members have been found guilty of abusing their own housing allowances and have been forced to repay the money, I suppose, to the House of Commons, which forwarded the expense payments to them in the first place.

It just reinforces and underscores what I was saying from the outset, that this motion is nothing more than a political stunt on behalf of the Liberal Party. There is no substance to this. It is trying to create an embarrassment. It is trying to cause some discomfort on our side as a result of this. If Liberals truly felt that they had something to add to the discourse in the House, they would have provided for the House a motion to debate on something substantive, whether it be economic policy, environmental policy, foreign policy or anything. Unfortunately, since they have no policies on any of those issues, this is the best they could do. Shame on them.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Mr. Speaker, with the sponsorship scandal, after the Bloc Québécois gleaned some information, it asked over 400 questions in the House, people started to testify, emails circulated and journalists got information out. What happened next? The Gomery commission was set up.

Now we have a Senate scandal, “Senategate”. I have heard and we all have heard the information that is circulating about it. The Prime Minister's credibility is at stake because his story is different in almost every question period.

Why are the parties in the House not doing what the Bloc Québécois has been calling for from the start, as was done with the Gomery commission and as they are doing in Quebec City with the Charbonneau commission? An independent public inquiry should be set up and require the Prime Minister and the people involved to testify under oath. Witnesses will have to give their answers on the spot and provide the relevant documents. Right now, it is a mess and a shambles.

Why is the government not setting up this kind of independent public inquiry?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, I would just point out the difference between what we are talking about here, the Duffy affair, and the sponsorship scandal. It is almost like night and day. The situation we have here is that $90,000 was repaid to taxpayers, albeit inappropriately. All of the parties involved admitted their culpability. Nigel Wright said that yes, he did it. He said that it was wrong, but he did it.

With the sponsorship scandal, we had Liberal Party members denying their involvement. It took a commission, headed by Justice Gomery, to find out exactly what happened. That was far different from this. This was $90,000 improperly repaid, and admitted to, as opposed to a systemic attempt on behalf of the Liberal Party of Canada to defraud taxpayers and deny its involvement.

That is the difference. That is why there was a Gomery Commission. That is why there is no need for one here.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Edmonton—St. Albert.

Given that I only have a few minutes to talk, let me pick up on the point the government just made. When we look at the Gomery inquiry, there is a difference between the style of leadership of former Prime Minister Paul Martin and the current Prime Minister and what is taking place inside the office.

When former Prime Minister Paul Martin recognized that the public, Canadians, wanted to see action coming from the prime minister, he delivered on that. He was not intimidated. He was not scared. He was not running for cover. He acknowledged it and took it upon himself to do the right thing. That is what we are challenging the current Prime Minister to do: the right thing.

In the last week, I have been canvassing in Pinawa, which is in the Provencher constituency. I have had the opportunity to meet with individuals at my local McDonald's and with many other constituents. I can tell members that what is top of mind is the Prime Minister's Office.

The official opposition has been dismal in terms of addressing this issue today. It wants to focus its attention on being critical of the Liberal Party and exaggerating that we asked three questions versus their 20 questions, or whatever number it is.

The Liberal Party has been up every day asking questions on this issue. The opposition's drivel makes no sense. My advice to the official opposition is to focus on the issue at hand, and the issue at hand is the Prime Minister's Office.

I do not believe what we are hearing from the Prime Minister on this issue. Canadians are not believing. When I knock on doors or meet with people, the response I get is that they cannot believe what has taken place. Everyone is aware of it. There has not been one individual on whose door I knocked who did not want to talk about the Prime Minister's Office and what was happening with regard to the Senate scandal. There is a keen interest in trying to get to the truth.

We have disgraced Senator Mike Duffy. People have been following that for months. I can tell members that in many ways, Mr. Duffy actually has more credibility on the issue, in terms of being truthful, than our current Prime Minister. It is a fact that Canadians are losing confidence in the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister's Office.

This is not some trickery, in terms of the motion. Only the New Democrats and the Conservatives would say that it is a gimmick. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are challenging the government. We are providing an opportunity for the Prime Minister of our land to make a very clear statement. If he wants to redeem himself in the minds of Canadians, the best thing he can do is go under oath, because the Prime Minister has been very selective with the truth. One day we hear that Mr. Wright was the only individual within the office who knew. Then we find, because of the RCMP investigation, that there were a dirty dozen of them. There were 13.

How many people actually did know about it inside the Prime Minister's Office? All the Prime Minister originally said was one: Mr. Wright. Now he says a few people. Then he talks about how tough he is getting with these individuals who hid it from him, Mr. Duffy and the other two senators.

What about those other 13 people who have all been roped into this? They are playing prominent roles in other ministries. There has been no action against those individuals.

He is being very selective in what he is telling Canadians. That is the best-case scenario.

We know that Mike Duffy was told to lie. He was supposed to say that the money he was borrowing was for a mortgage. Who was the one who told him that? That came out of the Prime Minister's Office. That is a fairly serious allegation.

The government representative stood up and said that we have other issues before us, such as the European Union and health care, which I am not sure he mentioned, and other issues. Yes, those are all important issues. However, I would suggest that the integrity of the Prime Minister and of the Prime Minister's Office are of utmost importance.

New Democrats want to focus on saying that it is only them. I would suggest that we need to start focusing on what the resolution says. It is fairly simple. It is saying, in essence, that we want to provide a forum in which the Prime Minister of Canada can come before a committee and provide testimony. The key is that it would be under oath. I believe that Canadians, not just the members of the Liberal Party, would support the initiative to see the Prime Minister testify under oath, given the magnitude of the issue before us today.

The question is why we do not have members of the Conservative caucus standing up defending their Prime Minister or indicating what they would like to see. What have we got to lose by allowing this motion to pass? If the motion passes, the Prime Minister would be afforded the opportunity to go before a committee of his peers for three hours. We would have live coverage. Why live? It is because Canadians are interested. It is almost like a daily soap opera. Canadians are following this issue, and they want and deserve to know the truth. That is why we want to ensure that it is televised and that the Prime Minister is obligated to explain things under oath. We have consistently argued that. We want to see the Prime Minister acknowledge the importance of that.

Tomorrow we are going to have a vote on this issue. The member from the Conservative government said that he wants the facts. Canadians also want and deserve the facts.

If they have nothing to hide, why would they not support this motion? This motion is just trying to ensure that the Prime Minister has an opportunity to redeem himself in front of all Canadians and members of the House.

Why would one not support that opportunity? That is my challenge to members of the Conservative Party.

If they vote against the motion, then what is it that they want to hide? Why do they not want Canadians to know the full truth? Why do they not want a Prime Minister to be afforded the opportunity to be able to redeem himself to all Canadians?

I challenge the members to support the motion. It is a good motion.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Oak Ridges—Markham Ontario

Conservative

Paul Calandra ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and for Intergovernmental Affairs

Mr. Speaker, it is funny listening to the member talk about Paul Martin. Let us remember that Paul Martin was under the illusion that he was going to win 280 seats. The Gomery commission was more about trying to ruin the reputation of Jean Chrétien than it was about trying to get to the bottom of what happened in the sponsorship scandal.

Last week the Liberals were talking about how immature the NDP was for bringing the motion forward with respect to the activities of the Senate, but as has been rightfully pointed out by members of the opposition and as I said earlier today, while I do not necessarily agree that this should be the priority of the opposition, the NDP have made it their priority. They get up and ask a lot of questions and their leader asks a lot of questions in the House because it is a priority for them.

However, the Liberals have been completely silent and absent. Now they are trying to tell people that it has to go to the ethics committee for further investigation where the Liberals will get one question. Therefore, what they are saying again is that they want the NDP to do the work that they are too embarrassed to have their leader do.

That is what they are really saying. That is what the motion is about. The Liberal leader is so embarrassed by the fact that he has been outclassed in the House of Commons by our leader and by the Leader of the Opposition that he either wants to try to regain the spotlight or he wants to get it off the table because he is going to continue to fight for the status quo in the Senate. Canadians do not want that.

How does this member reconcile the fact that he thinks it is so important to get in front of the ethics committee, when his member at the ethics committee will get one question? How does one question get to the bottom of such an important issue for the Liberal Party?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, the question is ridiculous, quite frankly.

The member says a few questions is all we have asked. He sits there and has been answering or attempting to answer or filibustering the questions that the Liberal Party has been asking every day. The member goes on some tangent about pizza and whatever else to avoid accountability on the issue.

The Liberal Party does not have to apologize for anything, whether it is the leader of the Liberal Party or the member for Wascana or any other member of the caucus. We have been aggressively pursuing this issue, whether it is inside the House of Commons or inside the Senate chamber. That is the reality of it.

The member wants to talk about strength of leadership. He made reference to former prime minister Paul Martin. Paul Martin did not go running. He did not attempt to hide. He was prepared to face the truth. Most importantly, he wanted Canadians to know the truth. That is what we want.

We want this Prime Minister to do the right thing and allow Canadians to know the truth, to demonstrate some of the leadership that goes along with the responsibility of being the Prime Minister, and to take responsibility.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

NDP

Marc-André Morin NDP Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Mr. Speaker, we see what the debate has come to.

We see the passion with which the Liberals are standing up for their future retirement home and, on the other side, all the energy the Conservatives can put into trying to preserve the pool of labour they need at election time to travel across the country at taxpayers' expense.

What Canadians want right now is for the Prime Minister to take responsibility for the people he recruited himself. If he cannot speak to his integrity, he could at least speak to his judgment in hiring those people.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I want to conclude with this. It is very important that we do not allow the government of the day to change the channel.

I say that with all sincerity to my New Democratic colleagues. The core issue here is in fact the cover-up attempt and the misinformation, not telling the full truth, inside the Prime Minister's Office.

We should not let the PMO's office and the Prime Minister off the hook. The motion is very clear. We want to see, on behalf of all Canadians, the Prime Minister testify in committee under oath. That is what we believe is important. That is the reason we brought the motion forward. We hope and trust that the New Democrats will see it for that and vote in favour of the motion tomorrow.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Edmonton—Strathcona, The Environment; and the hon. member for Nanaimo—Cowichan, Aboriginal Affairs.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Edmonton—St. Albert.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Independent

Brent Rathgeber Independent Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour and a rarity, I suppose, for me to rise to participate in a debate. I thank my friend from Winnipeg North for sharing his time with me and allowing me to put a couple of comments on the record regarding this very important motion.

I come to this issue with a slightly different perspective than previous speakers in that I was elected as a Conservative, as I think members of the House know. I support the Prime Minister, although no longer unequivocally since I left his caucus. I now have taken the position that, as an independent member of Parliament, I will examine government bills and legislation on a piecemeal basis and support those that I think are meritorious and for the benefit of my constituents and oppose those that are not. That applies, of course, to opposition motions as well.

When I look at the opposition motion that we are debating here this afternoon, it is with some reluctance that I have come to the conclusion that I have to support the motion. I am reluctant for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it has come to this, that the Liberal opposition has had to use one of its opposition days to raise a motion to compel the Prime Minister of Canada to appear before the access to information and ethics committee to testify under oath as to what he did or did not know concerning what is consuming the Canadian public as the Wright-Duffy scandal.

It is sad that it has come to this point because I believe in responsible government. In the British parliamentary system, the government is responsible to Canadian citizens through this elected chamber. Canadians elect parliamentarians, 308 of us currently and there will be a few more after the next election, and our job is to hold the government to account. Had the government been more forthcoming with respect to what it knew and did not know, I do not believe the motion would be necessary. The fact that it is necessary I find very regrettable.

I, too, hear from hundreds of constituents on topics regarding virtually every aspect of government. However, in the last six months no single topic has dominated the emails, phone calls and casual conversations with my constituents more than the so-called Senate scandal. However, it is not a Senate scandal. The problems with respect to the Senate expenses are big problems, but they are, in my view, the least significant aspect of all of this. As offended as I suspect most Canadians are that senators are alleged to have claimed housing and travel expenses they were not entitled to, and they are outraged at that, the bigger issue in my view and in the view of Canadians and constituents I have talked to is the Prime Minister's involvement with respect to one of those senators, that of course being Senator Duffy.

The bombshell was dropped in this place on May 14 or 15 that the former chief of staff to the Prime Minister had cut a cheque in the amount of some $90,000 to reimburse Canadian taxpayers for Senator Duffy's ineligible expense claims. That raised many questions, not the least of which was what the quid pro quo was. What did the Prime Minister's Office and the chief of staff expect that senator to do in exchange for this very generous gift of $90,000? Of course, we have heard all sorts of allegations and suggestions.

The senator has indicated in the other place that there was some massive conspiracy orchestrated by the Prime Minister's Office to make that scandal go away, which was becoming a political scandal, and therefore, I suspect, salvage the reputation of a senator who at one time was a very loyal and valued member of the Conservative caucus and the Conservative Party, especially on the fundraising circuit. The problem I have with all of this, from what I hear in the other place and in question period on a daily basis, is that none of this qualifies as evidence.

There are many lawyers in this room and we should be very concerned about what is happening in both chambers of Parliament. Everything is protected by privilege, none of it is under oath and none of it is subject to cross-examination, yet very serious allegations have been made. It has been suggested that the Prime Minister's Office may have breached the Criminal Code of Canada and the Parliament of Canada Act with respect to influencing a sitting legislator. That is a very serious charge that, if made out, could result in jail time for those convicted.

On the other side of the equation, of course, are three senators whose very offices are held in the balance of a vote that I suspect is going to take place within 90 minutes. They have not been criminally charged, but they have been accused of being, shall I say, “creative” with respect to their expense accounts.

Again, there is all sorts of contrary evidence with respect to those suggestions. There appears to be more or less compliance with the audits that were undertaken, but the legislative committees that examined those audits came to different conclusions and made certain orders. Some of those orders have been complied with, and in the case of Senator Duffy, under some fairly unorthodox matters.

This is where I wish, quite frankly, in the House of Commons during question period that Canadians and parliamentarians would get the answers that we deserve. We believe in responsible government. We have had responsible government in this country since before we were a country. In 1848 in Nova Scotia, Joseph Howe was the premier of the then colony of Nova Scotia, the first colony anywhere in colonial Britain to achieve responsible government.

It is a very simple concept. The government, the cabinet, the executive is responsible to the democratically elected chamber, which is this place. Therefore, it is in this place that, all things working out as they should, the Prime Minister ought to, in my view, answer the questions from the opposition, from the third party and from members of his own caucus if they were so inclined to ask with respect to what the Prime Minister knew and when he knew it.

I have consistently believed the Prime Minister, and I have been very public about this. I have been asked many times and I have always indicated that I believe the Prime Minister's version of events, that he was kept in the dark regarding this highly unusual, unorthodox and possibly illegal transaction between his former chief of staff and a sitting senator. However, I am not sure that ends it.

We live under the parliamentary concept of the convention of responsible government. The Prime Minister is responsible for the operation of two departments of that government: one is the Prime Minister's Office and the other is the Privy Council Office. The Prime Minister is responsible to this democratically elected chamber for what goes on there.

Based on the dribs and drabs of information that we have received during question period, we know that there were some very unorthodox activities, possibly illegal activities, between the then chief of staff and three sitting senators. It is incumbent upon the Prime Minister to answer not only for what he knew or did not know, and he has been very clear about what he did not know, but also to answer for the operation of the department that bears his name. He is the PM in the PMO, the Prime Minister's Office.

It is a systemic breakdown of a system with no checks and balances, even within the Prime Minister's Office, involving a rogue chief of staff and apparently several other individuals, a few according to the Prime Minister and up to 11 or 12 according to some media reports. That this type of systemic breakdown could occur where that number of individuals would be involved or at least have knowledge of an operation and could somehow keep the Prime Minister unapprised of it, I think, is worthy of examination.

The Prime Minister ought to come forward with some candour with respect to what goes on in his office. How can this type of activity go on without him knowing about it?

I was elected as a Conservative. I am one of those who came to Ottawa on a so-called “white horse” to clean up government. I believe in the Prime Minister, but I would think that he would want the opportunity to salvage his reputation and that of his government by appearing before a committee, since the Conservatives do not seem to be inclined to do it in the House of Commons during question period.

Admittedly, question period only allows for very brief questions and even briefer answers, and seldom are they ever really answered anyway. However, a committee, where people have multiple rounds of questions and can follow up, would be an opportunity for the government to come clean and for the Prime Minister to restore the integrity of his office.

I think it is important that the Prime Minister do so because the integrity of the Prime Minister is fundamental to Canadians' belief in their government.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, this shows that, when you are in power, people come knocking on your door to abuse that power. No political party will ever be immune from that type of situation. The Duffys of this world will always show up at politicians' doors. The question is how you handle that type of situation.

Clearly, like the Liberals in the past, the Conservatives do not have an answer. I hope that we who aspire to take power will come up with a better answer. However, the last thing you want to do when faced with corruption is to suggest a partisan solution. Right now, what the Liberals are suggesting is to put the Prime Minister on the spot, not find a solution to corruption. That is probably the crux of the issue.

I urge my Liberal colleagues to realize that they are not finding a solution to corruption. What they are suggesting is to put the Prime Minister on the spot and hide their problems. However, the problems of the Liberals and the Conservatives, as well as our problems in the future, will be the same.

On that note, I would like to know how the Liberal Party is going to come up with a long-term solution to all those problems and put a stop to the attempts at corruption.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Independent

Brent Rathgeber Independent Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Mr. Speaker, I do not speak for the Liberal Party, so I cannot answer that question. I can comment on what the member indicated earlier on how we restore confidence in Canadians that the government of the day is responsible and acting in an open and transparent method. I do not have an easy answer to that question.

During the 45 minutes per day of question period in this chamber, it has been almost exclusively consumed with this issue since we came back after Thanksgiving. The nation's business is really being put on a shelf as this chamber, especially during question period, is almost entirely consumed with this one issue.

I do not know what the perfect method is for the government to convince Canadians that it is open and transparent. Question period does not seem to be working, so that is why I support the motion to have the Prime Minister appear before a parliamentary committee.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I recognize in my hon. colleague an integrity that is all around him when he talks. He is talking from a position of someone who has had tremendous hurt and pain as a result of his political choices and he stands here and fights on behalf of democracy and integrity in this chamber.

The fact that the Liberal motion is asking for the Prime Minister to be honest with Canadians and with all of us in Parliament does not seem so difficult. It is unfortunate that it has taken a motion from the House to possibly make that happen. I realize we are talking about integrity.

Does the hon. member have any questions or suggestions as to how else we might accomplish getting the Prime Minister to be honest with Canadians?