Debates of Nov. 5th, 2013

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Mr. Speaker, the opposition House leader likes to smear everybody. He would like to bring the Liberals and the Conservatives in rather than focus on the issue at hand.

It is about the characters who are involved on that side of the House in this scandal and about that Prime Minister knowing about it. It is about Gerstein, Tkachuk, Stewart-Olsen, Novak, Perrin, Woodcock, Hemmen, Rogers, Jenni Byrne, and Senator Finley. What do all those individuals have in common? They are members of the Conservative Party. That is where this problem resolves, and the problem sits at the feet of the Prime Minister.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, let us clarify this. My friend read out a list of all these senators who have done really bad things. Some of them have stolen things and are being investigated by the RCMP. However, his list stops short by party affiliation. As soon as he runs out of Conservative senators who have stolen from taxpayers, he cannot go to those Liberal senators who have done the exact same thing. Does he not understand how that contradiction, that hypocrisy, might rub Canadians slightly the wrong way—that it is okay to do something as a Liberal that is not okay to do as a Conservative? That does not make any sense.

That is why for decades New Democrats have stood in this place and argued that the system itself is the problem. The privileges that are given to senators, writ large, to enjoy as they please on the so-called honour system will feed the very scandal that is now at the feet of the Prime Minister, with the RCMP knocking on the Prime Minister's Office seemingly every week.

To simply suggest that this is just a one-off scandal, that Mac Harb did nothing wrong, and that Lavigne, who is another Liberal senator and is in jail, did nothing wrong because they are Liberals reminds me of the Gomery inquiry, when if it was being done in a cause that was aligned with the Liberals, then it was okay because it was a Canadian cause.

Theft is theft. Breaking the public trust is breaking the public trust. Why not simply address it in the motion before the House? Why not simply agree that reform, and perhaps abolishment, is the right cause?

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Mr. Speaker, if those Liberal senators and those Conservative senators have done something wrong and have been charged by the RCMP, yes, the full extent of the law should come down on them absolutely. No one said it should not, and no one is saying they should get away with this just because they had a Liberal brand or a Conservative brand. The full extent of the law should come down on these senators.

However, the motion before the House today is about the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister's Office, and his involvement in this. There are lots of angles to this story, but today we are talking about the Prime Minister, what the people at the Prime Minister's Office knew, when they knew it, and their responsibility. We are not dragging down the whole Parliament on Guy Fawkes Night, coming in here and burning the whole place down and burning down the Senate. That is not what we are talking about on this Tuesday on Guy Fawkes Night.

We are talking about the Prime Minister's Office, who was involved, and the characters who are still there, such as the Ray Novaks of the world. He is still the chief of staff. He was in on this scheme, knew about it, and was promoted to chief of staff. That is the issue.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Liberal opposition motion, as moved by the hon. member for Wascana, states:

That the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics be instructed to examine the conduct of the Prime Minister’s Office regarding the repayment of Senator Mike Duffy’s expenses; that the Prime Minister be ordered to appear under oath as a witness before the Committee for a period of 3 hours, before December 10, 2013; and that the proceedings be televised.

There are two reasons for this motion. The first pertains to Canadians' right to know the truth about what we can call the cheque scandal. It is impossible to get the truth from the government and the Prime Minister either inside or outside the House. The government is ducking the issue, refusing to answer, only giving little bits of information at a time and constantly contradicting itself. That is why the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics must look into this matter and call all of those involved, including the Prime Minister, and have them testify under oath as witnesses.

The second reason for this motion is that the situation calls into question the Prime Minister's integrity, openness and ability to tell Canadians the truth. The very role of Prime Minister is affected. I do not know whether the Prime Minister is aware of this, but more and more Canadians do not believe him and see him as secretive.

In our political system, the person who holds the office of Prime Minister has so much power and so many ways that he can profoundly affect the lives of Canadians and how the country operates that we cannot have the slightest doubt about his honesty and openness. We may disagree with his values, decisions or style, but we must never doubt his honesty and openness.

In the cheque scandal, the Prime Minister is either telling the truth—and he must demonstrate that such is the case in order to dispel the doubts—or the Prime Minister is hiding things that must be brought to light and that could call into question whether he is worthy of his office. Canadians have the right to know which it is. They have the right to know the truth.

Let us forget for a moment about the role of Prime Minister and think about an ordinary citizen. What does any honest and unfairly suspected person do when his integrity is called into question? He hastens to show that the allegations are unfounded and that he is an honest person. He puts everything on the table to clear his name.

However, if this person does not have a clear conscience and has something to hide, what does he do? He dodges the issue, obfuscates and does everything he can to throw up a smokescreen and blame his accomplices. Is that not exactly what the government and the Prime Minister are doing—ducking, obfuscating, throwing up a smokescreen and blaming their accomplices?

This has to stop. The government must come clean, the Prime Minister must come clean and they all must appear before a parliamentary committee, under oath, as there is no other way to get at the truth.

Let us go back to the sequence of events as we know it.

On December 3, 2012, questions were raised about Senator Duffy's housing claims. Among other issues, Senator Duffy was claiming his longtime Ottawa residence as a secondary residence and his cottage in P.E.I. as his primary residence.

On December 4, 2012, the Prime Minister's then chief of staff, Mr. Nigel Wright, emailed Senator Duffy. The email said that he had been told that Duffy complied with all applicable rules on expenses and noted that “...there would be several Senators with similar arrangements”. It concluded, “This sure seems to be a smear.”

On February 13, 2013, the Prime Minister told Senator Duffy to repay, according to Senator Duffy because the optics were not good with the party base. Nigel Wright was present at the meeting. Then Nigel Wright offered a $90,000 cheque to Duffy. Funds were wired to Duffy's lawyer on March 25.

On March 4, 2013, Duffy's lawyer sent Conservative Party lawyer Arthur Hamlton an invoice for $13,560 for his legal fees related to the Senate expense repayment deal.

On April 4, 2013, Arthur Hamilton sent a cheque to Duffy's lawyer for $13,560.

On May 15, 2013, the payment by Nigel Wright was eventually made public.

On May 19, 2013, Nigel Wright is no longer the Prime Minister's chief of staff.

On June 5, 2013, in the House of Commons, the Prime Minister said that Nigel Wright made the decision to give Mike Duffy a $90,000 cheque, that it was Mr. Wright's decision, and that it was not communicated to the Prime Minister or members of his office.

On October 24, 2013, the Prime Minister said in the House that Mr. Wright had admitted that what he did was wrong, that he had taken responsibility for his actions, and that he informed very few people.

Therefore in June the Prime Minister said that only Wright knew of the money, and in October he said that a few people knew. RCMP affidavits filed in court show that numerous Prime Minister's senior staff knew about the $90,000 and that they were involved in the cover-up.

The Prime Minister has stated that on February 13 he ordered Mike Duffy to repay his expenses, but from that date until May 16—three full months—we are told the Prime Minister was never briefed on his hand-picked star senator, nor did he ask any questions. During that time, $90,000 was paid to Senator Duffy, Duffy's $13,000 legal bills for the cover-up were paid by Conservative donors, a Deloitte audit was subverted, a Senate report was corrupted, and a false story was concocted by the PMO about a bank mortgage.

The Prime Minister needs to come clean with Canadians and tell them when he first heard that his staff, for which he is accountable, had counselled Mike Duffy to lie.

This weekend Senator Irving Gerstein, chairman of the Conservative Fund of Canada, stated that he refused a request by Wright to repay Duffy's bogus expenses. This statement directly contradicts statements made by Nigel Wright's lawyers in an RCMP affidavit, which stated that the party was prepared to pay $32,000 but declined to pay when the bill reached $90,000. Who is lying, Nigel Wright or Senator Gerstein?

In his role as chairman of the fund, Senator Gerstein reports directly to the Prime Minister. Are Canadians supposed to believe that Gerstein failed to mention this PMO conspiracy that he was involved in to the Prime Minister during their many meetings over many months?

Now let us consider the number of senior officials who knew about the Wright-Duffy deal. Wright told the RCMP that he informed the following people of the $90,000 cheque: Conservative Senator Irving Gerstein, chairman of the Conservative Fund of Canada; Benjamin Perrin, the Prime Minister's personal lawyer in the PMO; David van Hemmen, formerly Nigel Wright's assistant, now policy adviser to the Minister of State for Finance; and Chris Woodcock, director of issues management in the PMO at the time, and now chief of staff of the Minister of Natural Resources.

Duffy alleges that Woodcock wrote the line that he used on national television, which was that Duffy took out a bank loan to repay his housing expenses. It was a line that Senator Duffy has said was designed “...to deceive Canadians as to the real source of the $90,000”.

He also said that Woodcock even followed up with Duffy the day after the bank to ensure that he was sticking to the line.

It has also been reported that Patrick Rogers, then legislative assistant to the Prime Minister and now director of policy for the Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages, knew of the $90,000 cheque.

Additionally, it has been reported that Jenni Byrne, former director or political operations for the Conservative Party and current deputy chief of staff to the Prime Minister, knew of the Conservative Party's plan to repay Duffy's expenses when they were thought to be $32,000.

Senator Duffy has also provided documentation to show that Conservative Party lawyer Arthur Hamilton was involved in the paying of Senator Duffy's legal fees.

Who else knew about it?

The Prime Minister himself must answer, rather than trying to pin the whole affair on Nigel Wright alone. It is disturbing that the Prime Minister dramatically changed his version of the facts with regard to Nigel Wright's departure.

Let us return to the sequence of events.

On May 16, the PMO issued the following statement, “Mr. Wright will not be resigning...Mr. Wright has the full support of the Prime Minister”.

On May 19, the PMO issued a statement from the Prime Minister, which said:

It is with great regret that I have accepted the resignation of Nigel Wright as my Chief of Staff. I accept that Nigel believed he was acting in the public interest, but I understand the decision he has taken to resign. I want to thank Nigel for his tremendous contribution to our Government over the past two and a half years.

On June 5, the Prime Minister stated the following in the House of Commons:

—it was Mr. Wright who made the decision to take his personal funds and give those to Mr. Duffy so that Mr. Duffy could reimburse the taxpayers. Those were his decisions. They were not communicated to me or to members of my office.

On October 25, in a radio interview, the Prime Minister stated, “As you know I had a chief of staff who made an inappropriate payment to Mr. Duffy. He was dismissed”.

On October 29, the Prime Minister stated in the House of Commons, “on our side there is one person responsible for this deception, and that person is Mr. Wright, by his own admission”.

First, the Prime Minister defended Nigel Wright for five days, from May 15 to 19, then he let him go “with great regret” on May 19. Lately he has said that he fired him for lying.

Fewer and fewer Canadians believe the Prime Minister because he keeps changing his story.

Like all other aspects of this sordid affair, the Prime Minister has not provided Canadians with the truth.

In conclusion, what is at stake?

First, paying a sitting legislator money to do something has the potential to be illegal. It has been reported that Duffy had to agree to stop talking and to stop co-operating with an audit as a condition of payment.

Second, there is a cover-up. That cover-up starts with the source of the funds. Duffy alleges the PMO wrote lines designed to deceive Canadians as to the source of the money, mainly that he took out a bank loan.

Who is involved in this cover-up? All the key players I mentioned must testify under oath before the committee. The Prime Minister must also testify under oath before the committee because Canadians have the right to know the truth.

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech.

The Senate has never been a chamber of sober second thought or particularly representative of the regions, which it should have been, according to the Fathers of Confederation. It has always been a haven for the cronies of the party in power, no matter which party that is. Blue or red, things have always been the same.

The Liberals, through this motion, are saying they want to preserve the status quo, although they will be removing a few bad apples from the Senate. The problem is that there is an increasing number of bad apples. I feel that the whole orchard is contaminated. It is becoming hard to find any apples that are not rotten. I am sure there are some. I do not mean to say that everyone is crooked, far from it, just that there are too many problems.

I wonder why the Liberals seem to be defending the status quo regarding the operation of the Senate. Given that there are so many problems and that this institution is decaying and falling apart, would it not be in the public interest to simply abolish it?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we have colleagues in the House, especially on the Conservative side, who have huge problems and have not always followed the rules or the laws. Does that mean the House of Commons should be abolished?

I am afraid the NDP has not realized that it is helping the Prime Minister by throwing him a lifeline. Instead of making the Prime Minister the central issue, instead of trying to find out whether he is telling the truth or not or whether the person holding the highest political office in the land is honest and straightforward, the NDP is giving him the chance to say that the problem lies with the Senate and that the government will be reopening the Constitution because of Mike Duffy's improper spending, which is completely irresponsible.

My colleague should realize that it is also possible to reverse the situation. We could be putting his leader in the hot seat, with what happened in Laval in the 1990s. Maybe this should happen one day.

However, at this time, this is a diversion the Prime Minister is trying to create at the expense of my hon. colleague's leader. The only thing that truly matters at the moment is whether our country is being led by an honest man.

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the member clearly thinks that the problem is only between Mike Duffy and the Prime Minister. However, the New Democrats know that it goes beyond that. The Senate structure is fundamentally flawed. Just look at the years of partisan Senate appointments for party cronies and failed candidates.

We have to wonder about someone like Percy Downe—who was former prime minister Chrétien's director of appointments—and his role within the Senate Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration, on which he currently sits. This appointment continued in the tradition of Liberal patronage. Mr. Downe charged a $5,000 expense to his hospitality budget for pens and playing cards. That is reminiscent of the sponsorship scandal.

Could the member explain how Liberal senators giving speeches at partisan activities falls under the Liberals' definitions of accountability?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if the member's question was about who is doing the most to make Parliament as a whole more transparent, the answer is clearly the Liberal leader. He has made suggestions to make Parliament more transparent, and these are being implemented in the Senate by the Liberal Senate caucus. We could say that Liberal senators are showing more transparency than NDP members, but that is not the issue at hand.

The issue at hand is whether our Prime Minister is telling the truth. Did he know about the $90,000 cheque that was given to a parliamentarian to buy his silence, something that is very serious and potentially illegal?

The Prime Minister first said that only his former chief of staff, Mr. Wright, knew about the cheque. Now he admits that other people were aware, but he refuses to say who, because he is starting to get caught in a spider's web.

That is what is going on and that is why the Prime Minister must come testify in committee under oath.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my Liberal friend.

We agree with him and his party about the scandal involving the PMO, but we need to address the root cause of the problem. The Liberal Party feels that the system works well and that the status quo should be maintained. We feel that if the current system remains in place, there will be more cases like Mr. Duffy's. There might be a Liberal Mr. Duffy involved. That is the problem.

My friend, whom I consider to be a true democrat, does not believe that there is something fundamentally wrong. It is ludicrous to think that the Senate is good. It is impossible to be a democrat and also think that the Senate is a good system for a modern, advanced, free country such as ours.

Yes, this is a good motion, but the Prime Minister and his party are remaining silent and will vote against it. That is the problem at the heart of this scandal, and this motion alone will not fix it—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

The hon. member for Saint-Laurent—Cartierville.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his support for the motion.

However, I would ask him to ensure that the Prime Minister does not wriggle out of this. I would be pleased to talk to my colleague about whether Canada's Senate should be elected, appointed or abolished, particularly once the Supreme Court renders its opinion.

In the meantime, I hope that we can clarify the fundamental issue here, namely who knew about the hush money that was given to a parliamentarian, who in the Prime Minister's entourage knew about it and whether he knew about it. We need those answers sooner than later. That is why we have moved this motion.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I certainly want to ask my colleague a question with regard to his comments and contribution to the debate today.

As we know, there have been a lot of contradictory responses in the House of Commons around what has been happening in the Senate, who was responsible, who should be responsible, the actions they took and the time frames in which those actions were taken.

We heard the Prime Minister say over the weekend that he could not care less. I would like to ask my colleague today if that is the same approach he sees from the Prime Minister when it comes to his commitments around the Senate that go back almost seven years.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will answer the same as I did for my NDP colleagues. The issue is not about reform of the Senate. I would be very pleased to discuss that and the reasons why it was not realistic to go ahead alone as a Parliament without working with the provinces, including her province, the province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

The key issue is this. Do we have a Prime Minister who is saying the truth to Canadians about the possibility to have bribed a parliamentarian, something that is potentially illegal?

We should not offer the Prime Minister any ability to dodge this question. He should answer it in a straightforward manner.

Frankly, if it were me or any Canadian whose honesty was in question, we would be all over the place saying, “I am honest and I will prove it”. Why is the Prime Minister doing the exact opposite? Does he have anything to hide?

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to hear that my friend from Labrador is also interested in the idea of what to do with the Senate, although the Liberals are focused on one aspect of it today.

At the heart of this was a fundamental lack of democracy in which senators did not feel that they owed anything to anybody. Mike Duffy, Pam Wallin, Brazeau and all the rest down the line did not feel accountable to anybody. They also felt their job was why the Prime Minister put them there: to raise money for the party.

Does my friend think that is honourable work for senators to use taxpayer money for fundraising activities for a political party, as the situation is now for Conservative and Liberal senators?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it certainly is not acceptable to use public money for partisan purposes and we are against it.

However, we are also against the possibility that the PMO, and maybe the Prime Minister himself, is involved in a tactic to cover-up an attempt to bribe a parliamentarian and to buy his silence. This is so serious that I urge my colleague to not give any diversion to the Prime Minister to focus on this issue. I would be so pleased, in another forum, in another context, to discuss with him the way we may have a Senate that would be workable for Canadians as to have a House where all the MPs would be honest and would not play games with their expenses.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to participate in this Liberal opposition day motion.

As my colleagues may know, I used to work for the Royal Bank. Perhaps that is why I find the whole aspect involving the Royal Bank most disturbing. Of course, it is not the Royal Bank's fault, but this does involve the bank.

We learned during the Watergate days—and I am old enough to remember—that it is the cover-up that is worse than the crime. That lesson from Watergate has lasted since that time through several scandals. If ever there was a cover-up in its most obvious form, it is this allegation that agents of the Prime Minister were responsible for giving Mike Duffy instructions, up to the last seconds before he appeared on television, on precisely how he was to lie to the Canadian people.

We can think of cover-ups of various kinds, but I cannot think of a more obvious example of a blatant cover-up than that. It is bad enough that Senator Duffy did not tell the truth. When he received the $90,000 cheque from Nigel Wright to repay, he did not acknowledge that but rather he claimed that he had acquired a mortgage from Royal Bank to pay back the money. I am certainly not defending Senator Duffy for that, but what is more important in this situation where we are dealing with the integrity of the Prime Minister and his office is not the fact that Mike Duffy, by his own admission, did not tell the truth, but rather that he was acting under the explicit orders of people in the Prime Minister's Office, or so, at least, it is alleged by Mr. Duffy.

Think of it. Agents of the Prime Minister instruct by email, in gruesome detail, the exact lines that Mike Duffy is to use on television to hide the fact that he received this money, allegedly, from the Prime Minister's chief of staff. He was to tell Canadians in a sombre serious way that he and his wife, who I believe was with him on television or at least she was involved in this story, had borrowed money from the Royal Bank to get a mortgage and he was using the proceeds of that money to pay back his debt. I believe that this is just one of many reasons, and an important reason in my view, why the Prime Minister has to come clean and why he has to testify under oath, so that we as Canadians and as parliamentarians can get to the bottom of this story and find out what indeed is the truth.

I do not think we know with certainty that agents of the Prime Minister did act in this way. That has been alleged. There are alleged to be emails. I am not certain that the proof is there. That is one more reason why the Prime Minister, who is responsible for his employees in his own office, has to testify on this and on many other matters.

That is my small contribution as a former employee of the Royal Bank who feels a certain amount of outrage on this subject. With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will now cede the floor to my colleague, the member for Vancouver Centre.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

If the hon. member for Markham—Unionville has completed his remarks that is fair. We would now proceed with questions and comments to him and proceed through the sequence of speakers. The next slot on the speaking agenda may or may not be for the Liberal caucus. If the member would like to proceed in that way that is fine. If he would like to continue with his remarks that would also be acceptable.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I would be happy to take questions, Mr. Speaker.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, since the hon. Liberal member said he was a former bank employee, I would like him to comment on what he believes is right or wrong.

According to documents made public this month, the RCMP said:

...Harb could have put the Royal Bank of Canada “at risk” when he took out mortgages on homes in Cobden and Westmeath, properties he designated as his primary residences and used to claim living expenses from the Senate.

It further goes on to say:

In a sworn statement, RCMP Cpl. Greg Horton says Harb put a $177,000 mortgage on the Cobden home on the same day in October 2007 that he sold a 99.99 per cent share of the property to Magdeline Teo, a diplomat from Brunei, for $567,000.

Would the hon. member who used to work for the Royal Bank please comment on this? Does he think it is appropriate for a Liberal senator to do something like this?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, whether I worked for the Royal Bank of Canada or not is kind of irrelevant. I think a number of my colleagues have already suggested to this member that he can present the motions he wants and he can debate the subjects that he wants, but Mr. Harb is not and has not been for some time a member of the Liberal caucus.

The focus of the motion, in case my hon. colleague has not noticed, is on the Prime Minister. It is not on any particular senator or ex-senator. The focus is on the Prime Minister. He is the leader of our country. The idea is that he has to testify an oath so that Canadians can understand whether he is telling the truth, and so that they can have their confidence in his leadership restored or otherwise, depending on his testimony. That is the focus of our motion.

I would suggest that the NDP might keep its eye on the ball a little bit more.

[Annick Papillon, NDP, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the Liberals' motion. Of course everyone is talking about the Prime Minister right now. Everyone is talking about whether a certain act was committed or not. Everyone wants to know what really happened. I understand and I agree that the Prime Minister has some explaining to do.

However, I have a question for my hon. Liberal colleague. All Canadians agree, and the Liberals and NDP agree that what was done on the other side of the House is simply unacceptable. So why did the Liberals vote against the NDP motion to restrict the partisan activities and travel on the part of senators? That motion made a lot of sense and would have allowed us all, as parliamentarians, to move forward. Why did the Liberals vote against that motion and why are they proposing another one? If we cannot agree, how can we possibly move forward?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I very much liked the first part of my colleague's comments, because she agreed that it was important to focus on what the Prime Minister did and that he should testify publicly about this. She said that herself and I agree. Then she talked about things that have nothing to do with what we are discussing today. I would therefore suggest to her, as I suggested to her colleague, that she stick to the topic of debate currently before the House.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Liberals are pushing an open door with respect to the actual motion. We have asked literally dozens of questions with regard to the Prime Minister and his switching stories and switching versions of events from day to day.

There is something remarkable here. Let us all admit that the Prime Minister has done something quite remarkable. He has made Senator Duffy believable and somehow sympathetic. It is incredible that someone who has admitted to perhaps ripping off the taxpayer looks more believable than the Prime Minister does. I did not think it was actually possible.

The root cause of all of this is that a system has built up over the years from an era gone by that allows Liberal and Conservative senators alike to abuse the public's trust. He has to admit this, and I am sure that he does in private. It has happened. Some of them have gone to jail. He does not know Mac Harb now, but he certainly did when he was helping to fundraise millions of dollars for the Liberal Party of Canada. We have friends one moment, and sometimes they are not so friendly. Ask Nigel Wright.

Is not getting at the fundamental root of the Senate issue in this particular scandal, which the Prime Minister has himself in, relevant to today's debate? Does he somehow think he can parse these things—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Order, please. Before I go to the member for Markham—Unionville, I would just remind all hon. members to pay attention to the Chair for the signal when their time is complete. If they would like to make a presentation on the matter, the floor is available to all hon. members.

The hon. member for Markham—Unionville.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, a small suggestion or correction to my hon. colleague, it is not so much that Mike Duffy is more believable than the Prime Minister but I would perhaps admit that he is less unbelievable. There is a subtle distinction there.

On the question of what is important, Senate reform versus the Prime Minister, I think both are important. There is nothing more fundamental to a country than the integrity of its leader. That is what is under debate right now. Senate reform is an important topic and it will have its day in court. However, right now, an increasing number of Canadians are concerned that their Prime Minister, the number one leader of this country, may not be telling them the truth.

I am not saying he is not; I am not saying he is. However, it is a fact that many Canadians are fearful that he is not. If there is a fear that the leader of the country is not telling the truth to the people of the country, that is a matter of primary importance. That is the focus of the motion. That is why we are demanding that the Prime Minister testify under oath to Canadians on this important topic.