Debates of Feb. 25th, 2013

Response to the Supreme Court of Canada Decision in R. v. Tse Act

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the member might want to provide some comment on the fact that we pass a considerable amount of legislation through the House of Commons.

Many of us would argue that when government ministers bring forward legislation, there is an obligation for them to ensure the legislation is reviewed with the intention of meeting potential constitutional and charter challenges.

Would she want to comment on the importance of the ministers doing work prior to the introduction of legislation to ensure, as much as possible, that the legislation we are being asked to vote on is constitutionally correct?

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for his question, which is right on the mark.

A huge amount of background work must be done before a bill can be introduced, in order to avoid long, arduous legal action. It is easy enough to check if the legislation is constitutional. His question and comments are completely appropriate.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise here to ask the hon. member for LaSalle—Émard a question.

I would first like to congratulate her on her very pragmatic speech, which focused on the potential flaws of the bill and very clearly described the work that needs to be done in committee. It will not be enough to simply discuss it and come back here with exactly the same bill at third reading, not because the approach or the amendments were lacking, mind you, but because the Conservatives chose to ignore the opposition, cover their ears and forge ahead.

I would like to give my colleague the opportunity to revisit the matter and to comment on the fact that, first of all, we have very few days to do the work that needs to be done thoughtfully and thoroughly, and that secondly, by supporting this bill at second reading, we do in fact hope that it will be studied carefully and with an open mind by all members of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for her question.

Indeed, this bill is the result of a Supreme Court of Canada ruling, which means that this bill is a reaction rather than being proactive. Yet a bill should be proactive concerning issues that have been a problem for several years and continue to be a problem. So I think some work remains to be done in that regard. Unfortunately, because there is little time, because the government did not introduce this bill sooner, we do not have long to examine it.

We hope that at committee meetings, the government will listen to any clarifications that are given in order to ensure that we do not end up with a bill that is unconstitutional and contrary to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, as someone mentioned earlier.

Many experts can help ensure that this bill meets the needs of Canadians when it comes to security.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise today to say a few words on Bill C-55.

There are many thoughts I would like to share with members, albeit we are somewhat limited in terms of time.

I want to pick up on two or three themes. I always take great exception when the government does things in a fashion that ultimately is disrespectful to the functionality of the House.

It is a privilege to be a member of Parliament, and I value the role I get to play. I thank the constituents of Winnipeg North for allowing me to represent them. I am also very grateful for the Liberal Party allowing me to respond to the different bills and so forth.

When I look at what the government is doing here, I find it is once again somewhat disrespectful. We need to recognize that the Supreme Court of Canada made the decision that precipitated the legislation before us. This decision was not made a month ago or two months ago. This decision was made back in April 2012.

The government has known for months that it needed to change the legislation. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that could justify the delay it has taken in introducing Bill C-55.

What the government has done through procrastination is put the House of Commons in a position where, if we want to respect what our Supreme Court has ruled, there is pressure on its members to pass the legislation not only through second reading, but also committee, third reading and so forth, before April 13 of this year.

Today is the first opportunity to debate the bill. It is a significant issue. One has to question why the government—former Reformers and now Conservatives, as the members call themselves—has taken a different approach to dealing with legislation.

Members will recall the two massive budget bills in which the government, through the back door, made amendments to dozens of pieces of legislation. I am somewhat surprised that the government did not include this change. I guess the minister responsible did not think about it, or maybe he did not get the message from the PMO that the budget bill was coming forward. I am glad that at the very least the minister did not take advantage of the budget bill.

The government has been bringing in a record number of time allocation motions. I have a fairly lengthy list, and I will not go through the entire list. Some of these issues of time allocation were quite significant, whether it was on back-to-work type of legislation, the gun registry, a pension plan, the Canadian Wheat Board, Air Canada, Bill C-31, Bill C-27 or numerous other bills.

All of these deal with opportunities that members of Parliament have to provide due diligence and go through the legislation in a timely fashion to ensure the legislation is debated and that ideas will stem out from those debates, ultimately seeing it going to the committees and allowing them to do their jobs. Hopefully the government is then sympathetic to recognizing that its legislation quite often needs to be amended. Amendments come from many members on a wide variety of legislation.

Therefore, today we have a very short window. I suspect time allocation will be placed on this bill. However, there is a high sense of co-operation from opposition parties. On behalf of the Liberal Party, the Liberal Party critic was able to address the bill earlier today and indicated that we were very comfortable in seeing the bill go to committee. We recognize the importance of that.

That does not excuse the government of its irresponsible behaviour in not providing the House the respect that is necessary when dealing with legislation. It should be held accountable for taking so long in bringing this legislation before us.

However, the Liberal Party will behave responsibly and do what it can to get it to committee. We hope the government will be sensitive to possible amendments to the legislation. We recognize the bill does deserve attention at committee and understand that hopefully there will be some changes brought forward.

There are four things that Bill C-55 attempts to do.

It requires the ministers of public safety and emergency preparedness and the attorney generals of each province to report on the inception of private communications made under section 184.4. That is a positive request. It is something that the Supreme Court did not require. It is a reporting mechanism and there is great merit for it.

Bill C-55 provides that a person who is the subject of such an interception must be notified of the interception within a specified period of time. We must give thought to what the appropriate amount of time is. Hopefully that will come out in committee. We are very much aware of the importance of our charter and the protection of our privacy. There has to be a balancing of the public good and life-threatening situations and so forth. However, there also needs to be protection for individuals who ultimately might be subjected to a warrantless wiretap. I suggest the committee would do well to have some dialogue as to whether it should be 90 days or less than that and what the arguments and concerns are. It would be interesting to hear what the stakeholders would have to say on that point.

It would narrow the class of individuals who can intercept a wiretap. My understanding is that it is more general today. What the government wants to do is narrow it to include police officers. Hopefully, we will have some dialogue at committee stage regarding contracting out. Many municipalities hire private services related to security and policing. How will they be incorporated, or will they be incorporated?

Again, there is an opportunity with respect to the limits of those interceptions for offences listed in section 183 of the Criminal Code. We can appreciate that when that type of authority is issued, we should be very careful in terms of when and for what circumstances it would be utilized. Two things that come to mind are life-saving measures or kidnappings. These are the types of things where timing is of the essence. There might be a requirement for us to ensure that law enforcement officers are able to get the necessary information as quickly as possible.

The minister and others have talked a lot about section 184.4. That is really what we are talking about and that is what the Supreme Court made its ruling on. In going through some notes and, in particular, comments by judges, I thought I would share two that are really important to recognize and are related to section 184.4, which deals with the warrantless wiretapping provisions.

The first quote was said by one of our court judges:

—the privacy interests of some may have to yield temporarily for the greater good of society — here, the protection of lives and property from harm that is both serious and imminent.

I find that to be a most appropriate statement. This is why I raised this a few minutes ago. It is important for us to take a look at the most appropriate time frame. When someone's telephone conversation is being tapped into and the individual is not aware of it, what is an appropriate amount of time between the law officer making a recording of a conversation and the individual's right to know that recording was in fact made? From what I understand, the bill suggests 90 days.

The judge has correctly pointed out the importance of this to the public. We need to recognize that it outweighs the private interest. However, in the same breath, it is still important the private interest be protected in some fashion.

The second quote is as follows:

Section 184.4 contains a number of legislative conditions. Properly construed, these conditions are designed to ensure that the power to intercept private communications without judicial authorization is available only in exigent circumstances to prevent serious harm. To that extent, the section strikes an appropriate balance between an individual’s s. 8 charter rights and society’s interests in preventing serious harm.

I wanted to read those quotes because I believe very passionately in the charter. I believe the vast majority of Canadians over the years have recognized how important it is to protect and refer to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms because we have taken ownership of that over the last 30 years. We need to do what we can to always reflect on that.

Earlier today, I had the opportunity to ask a number of members a very important question that many took for granted, and I want to use a couple of examples.

I am the critic for citizenship and immigration. I have been frustrated by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration and some of the legislation he has brought forward. The question I posed to members earlier was related to the obligation of government ministers, with regard to the changes they are proposing at the draft stage, to get a better sense of whether these changes would meet the requirements of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms or pass a constitutional challenge. This has been an important issue for me because it has been raised in committee on several occasions. In fact, there is a group of lawyers and doctors in Toronto that is going to the Federal Court questioning the constitutionality of the decision made by the minister to cut back health care services to some of the most vulnerable in our society.

We have challenged the minister on that and it is now going to a federal court. We are not confident that the minister knew what he was doing when he brought in that change. Through Bill C-38, the minister made changes that ultimately excluded hundreds of thousands of skilled workers. Again, we questioned that. Not only does it come across as a very cruel and inhumane policy change, but when the minister brought in the change it was, and is being, challenged by a federal court. In fact, there was a ruling made by one court in Ontario indicating that the minister was wrong. I am not sure where this is at within the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, but that is another issue.

Then we had the issue of detention, which is where committees really are of benefit. We had a minister who was going to put people in a detention centre without any real right of appeal for a year, but at committee stage we were able to make some serious changes to that proposal. However, it took a whole lot to do it. Again, we had presenters at committee who said that this would not meet a constitutional challenge. That is important.

In looking at the justice area, I always thought that Bill C-30 was an interesting bill when it was introduced. I understand that the government has now withdrawn Bill C-30, but one of the arguments in that regard was that it did not go far enough in its provisions to give police officers wiretapping power over Internet services. Now Bill C-30 has come to a standstill, with the government backing off from it for a wide variety of reasons. That said, I question whether or not the current section 184.4 is something that would have been able to deal with many of the measures suggested in Bill C-30. Is that one of the reasons the government is not moving forward with the legislation? If so, one could question why it brought forward the bill in the first place. What happened regarding the exploitation of children on the Internet? Is that issue addressed in section 184.4? I am interested in knowing the answer, as I do know there was an attempt to deal with that issue in Bill C-30.

When I look at Bill C-55 as a whole, I do see merit in it going to committee, where I am interested to see what will take place. Hopefully, there will be some discussion relating to Bill C-30 because there might have been possible amendments to it that would benefit Bill C-55. Canadians are concerned about the exploitation of children over the Internet. I do not know to what degree Bill C-55 could assist in extreme circumstances in dealing with that issue.

We look forward to the bill going to committee. I hope and trust that the government will look at bringing legislation in a more timely fashion to the House and allow members the necessary diligence, without being rushed to pass bills to meet a deadline such as the Supreme Court's decision.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Before we move on to questions and comments, it is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, Employment Insurance; the hon. member for Québec, Search and Rescue.

The hon. member for Halifax.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the member for Winnipeg North made a number of good points in his speech, including the value of a full debate in the House and for changes to be made to the legislation if new evidence comes out at committee.

That made me think about the court case R. v. Tse, which prompted this legislation. In that case, witness testimony at committee was quoted to try to determine what Parliament's intention was when this section of the Criminal Code was originally introduced in 1993. That speaks volumes about the value of the work we do here. It is about what happens at committee and what we say in the House about this legislation; it is not just about the vote. The debate really matters.

With a Conservative majority on committee, is my colleague confident that the committee would adopt any recommendations? The government does not have a good track record on that front. What does he think?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the member makes a good point. For example, I can recall a very heated discussion of mine with many different stakeholders about the Air Canada Public Participation Act and how people had referred to what took place at committee because the committee went even further in explaining what was in the legislation. In essence, the legislation guaranteed jobs in Winnipeg, Mississauga and Montreal. When those jobs or positions were lost, we referred to what the legislation said and at committee we started to pull the comments. It was amazing how much more clarity that provided to the issue and how it reinforced our point that Air Canada was in violation of the law.

I do agree with the member's comment that committees do matter. What takes place in committee and the context in which bills are explained, especially when ministers or government members provide further detail and consensus is developed, assists us in going forward.

I would like to think the government would be sympathetic to amendments but I can understand why members would feel discouraged, for the simple reason that it is difficult with a Conservative majority government to get any amendments passed. On one occasion at the justice committee, we had to leave it to the Senate to make some changes even though the government was aware that the changes were necessary.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I think we all want to make sure that the Criminal Code complies with the charter. The fact that the Supreme Court of Canada has given the government and the Minister of Justice a full year to try to make sure that it does puts a great burden on us as parliamentarians to ensure that any legislation we pass will survive a subsequent charter challenge, should it come to that.

I am concerned because paragraph 90 of the Supreme Court of Canada decision refers favourably to the view of Mr. Justice Dambrot in the Riley case that “a legislative reporting requirement such as s. 195 that does not provide for active oversight of wiretapping generally, far less any particular use of the wiretap provisions, cannot be a constitutional requirement of a reasonable wiretap power...”.

I am wondering if the bill is likely to fail another charter challenge. In the opinion of the member for Winnipeg North, does it need an amendment to provide some active oversight of wiretapping more generally, taking the view of the Supreme Court?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I believe that the government already has a fairly decent sense of what issues concern opposition members. We want to see legislation that would pass any constitutional or charter challenge. It will be up to the government to recognize the value of making some changes.

If committee members and stakeholders are given the opportunity to present their views, any of our misgivings about what is in the legislation will be overcome. As the Liberal Party critic, I have addressed some of the issues referred to by the leader of the Green Party and I suspect that these will be discussed at committee if the government accepts the need for some amendments to the legislation for it to withstand any constitutional or charter challenge.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member could perhaps speak about one of the weaknesses of this legislation.

A private conversation can be intercepted only in emergency situations. Yet, according to the law, this state of emergency can last for a period of three years, which seems to me like an extremely long time to respond to an emergency. In theory, we would hope that, in the weeks following the interception of these communications, the police would ask a judge to make that interception legal.

Why can this operation continue for three years?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, doubtless we need to ensure that there are adequate safeguards to protect someone's right to privacy. Within the proposed legislation, there is an obligation on the law officer or agency to inform a person who, for example, has had their phone line tapped, within 90 days I believe. We are open to hearing what the stakeholders have to say on that.

Everything depends on the need. There is no doubt that section 184.4 is needed, but safeguards are also needed. That is what we are really asking for.

In the vast majority of situations, a court order could be obtained. This section would be used rarely and I suspect that normal procedures would be followed. However, when it is a matter of minutes or possibly hours, having to go through a judge could put someone's life in danger. Therefore, as one judge ruled, sometimes we have to forego a bit of privacy to save that life for the public good, as long as there is some check or balance in place to ensure that there is a safeguard against our going overboard. There would be a great deal of merit in tracking how often it is used year over year, as we go forward.

We will have to wait and see, but I do believe that section 184.4 would allow our police officers to do what they believe is necessary to save a life. If going to court to get a warrant is required, section 184.4 would allow them to take that shortcut, which I suspect would be used very rarely.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, one of the things the Supreme Court of Canada expressed reservations about was the idea of a “peace officer” having all of these powers. When I read the bill, that term has been changed to “police officer”. Therefore, the bill has narrowed this to a police officer versus a peace officer such as a bailiff or mayor.

At first reading, I think that strikes a good note, but I would be interested in hearing what the member for Winnipeg North thinks about that.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party's critic had the opportunity to address that specific issue also. Narrowing the scope, I believe, is a good thing.

My understanding is that the legislation in its current state, for example, included that a mayor would have that authority. I am not convinced that a mayor should have that authority.

At the very least, I suspect if we or the government is wrong on that particular point, one of the stakeholders would make that case at the committee stage.

I do believe it is necessary for us to narrow that gap or to be a little bit more specific. I think that is good, given the authority that Bill C-55 would be giving. I think it is a responsible suggestion.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Laurier—Sainte-Marie.

The NDP will vote in favour of Bill C-55 at second reading so that it can be examined in committee and so that its weaknesses can be remedied, since therein lies the problem.

This is a good bill, particularly in comparison to its predecessor, Bill C-30, which fortunately was withdrawn. I do not think that the government really had any choice.

We, in the NDP, think that it is reasonable for Canada to have the means to protect its laws, its people and their property. We agree that emergency situations may require the intelligent use of a police force to combat crime.

However, unfortunately, the devil is in the details and they are many. We must clarify them and provide solutions. The NDP will do so in committee.

The bill has many weaknesses. One of our concerns is that the government has a serious problem with the application of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The number of bills that this government is introducing that the Supreme Court considers to be ultra vires is becoming indecent.

Someday, this government is going to have to understand that the provisions of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms are not going to be struck down just to please it; the Supreme Court is not going to take pity on it and is not going to say someday that it accepts the charter being violated, to please a government that plainly does not understand it. That is not how it works.

As Albert Einstein said, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” This government is plainly afflicted by that syndrome. It systematically makes the same mistake all over again by violating the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and it hopes that someday those violations will be accepted by the Supreme Court. That is not how it works.

In this case, we have to pass this bill urgently. We will have a short time to examine it, essentially because of a judgment given nearly a year ago by the Supreme Court of Canada in R. v. Tse, declaring section 184.4 of the Criminal Code to be invalid. I would note that that section authorizes peace officers to intercept private conversations without seeking a warrant from the court.

The Supreme Court said at the outset that in exceptional urgent cases, where people and property are in immediate danger, it is to be expected that a democratic society will take measures to defend itself. However, it also said that this reasonable violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms must not open the door to any form of repression. That is the point at which it says that under section 184.4, the government is going too far.

Personally, I say that this must be limited. We must limit rights by stating clearly that the situation is exceptional. We must remedy the situation by informing the person who has been the subject of an unauthorized wiretap and have the continuation of the wiretap approved by a judicial authority.

In fact, section 183 of the Criminal Code provides a list of the events that will open the door to the use of section 184.4. That is a good thing. The application of that section must be guided by section 183.

A police force must not be allowed to go on a fishing expedition—to give itself the right to wiretap because it thinks that maybe someday something is going to happen. That is not authorized by the Supreme Court.

Collecting Canadians’ confidential information is no small matter. What is troubling is that this same government has a well-known tendency to lose confidential information about Canadians.

It accidentally forgot 500,000 files of students who received loans and bursaries. It lost information about aboriginal communities. It has lost a lot of information. It would be nice if this government took things a little more seriously.

We will be uncompromising when it comes to restricting rights. We will never allow democracy to be killed for the purpose of preserving democracy. That is the issue here. Under the rule of law in a democracy, people are accountable to justice and the law. We are debating this bill because section 183.4 does not meet the Supreme Court's criteria. It does not meet the criteria of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Bill C-30 definitely did not.

The close connection between Bill C-30 and Bill C-55 is regrettable. It is precisely this relationship that NDP members are going to keep a close watch on in committee. The question that then arises is whether we must sacrifice democracy in order to save it. The NDP's answer is very clear and intelligent: no.

The Supreme Court opened a door. It said that it wanted us to review section 184.4 and directed us to ensure that rights and freedoms were respected. There are some potential problems, such as replacing peace officers with police officers—which is fine—and other persons. However, “other persons” can mean anyone. At least this was limited to peace officers before. Now “other persons” can mean people who are not even peace officers. That is a problem and it is unacceptable.

Canadian Security Intelligence Service—CSIS—agents are not police officers within the meaning of the act. Members of the Canadian armed forces who work at the Communications Security Establishment Canada—CSEC— are not peace officers within the meaning of the act. Moreover, those who work for Echelon have the same problem. All exchanges with Interpol are therefore problematic.

It is therefore important to revise section 184. However, it requires proper oversight by police watchdogs. But then there is the problem of the scandal involving Dr. Porter. He was appointed to the highest level of our country's security institutions despite being wanted for fraud and corruption. The only qualification he had for work in intelligence and security was being a friend of the Conservative Party. I believe that friendship with members of the Conservative Party is a flawed criterion.

It is therefore important to make sure that the RCMP, CSIS and CSEC are properly monitored by oversight organizations that will tell their members, “Here is the act; you are required to follow the guidelines set out in this act.” We mentioned the problem of “other persons”, how oversight of them is important, and that this oversight should be performed by serious entities staffed by qualified people, not by Conservative Party campaign fundraising friends. There is also the problem of “other means”, which is very vague. Wiretapping is mentioned, but there is also the interception of private communications. Are the notes we write to prepare a speech or a sermon a problem?

In conclusion, I want to say that in democratic countries—and in London specifically—the phone hacking scandal in which journalists listened to conversations was a problem. In France, President Sarkozy used security services to get rid of some opponents. In the United States, intelligence services were misused to solve the problem. That is the problem with Bill C-55. That is what the NDP wants to do to protect Canadians.

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech and for raising some important points.

In introducing a bill, we always look to achieve some kind of balance. Here, we are looking to balance the surveillance and public safety objectives in response to a case that was before the Supreme Court. We must also balance human rights, fundamental rights, our Constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I would like my colleague to tell me whether he thinks this bill achieves that balance. If not, then I would like him to tell me what would help the bill to achieve that balance.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague. She came to the same conclusion as I did on this legislation.

It is important to give our public safety forces the resources they need to protect us. In this case, there are things that open the door for so much abuse that it is unacceptable. The expression “other technical means” is too broad. It may simply mean breaking into someone’s safe, ransacking his office or stealing documents. It is overly broad.

The definition of “other person” is also problematic. I fully agree that police forces should have this power. However, the expression “other person” is much too broad. We used to talk about an “officer of the peace”. At least it was limited. Another person could be anyone. That is one problem we should be addressing.

To whom are they accountable? That is the problem. Can we trust the organizations that supervise and oversee public safety? Unfortunately, this is not the case at the moment.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the issue really is the access without a warrant, and section 184.4 allows that to take place. From an opposition point of view—from the Liberal Party and, I believe for most part, from the New Democratic Party—the idea of safeguards is something we have talked about a lot.

Might the member provide some precise thoughts in terms of what he thinks would be a good safeguard for section 184.4? Does he have a personal feeling as to what could protect the privacy rights of an individual, which he could see potentially in the form of an amendment or something of that nature?

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Speaker, that is an excellent question about accountability.

Unfortunately, over the past two years, we have seen police monitoring agencies being curtailed and even abolished by the omnibus bill and administrative reorganizations resulting from budget cuts. Ombudsmen are disappearing, for instance. That is the cause of the problem.

In the Arar case, the judge released a major report that showed the exact nature of Canada’s public safety forces and to whom they were accountable.

The problem with the RCMP is that it sent an individual to be tortured in Syria and is not accountable to anyone. It was when the matter was discussed in a parliamentary committee a few years later that we realized that this did not make sense. That is the problem. Who is going to oversee the enforcement of the legislation by the police and by “other people”?

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in this House today to speak about Bill C-55, Response to the Supreme Court of Canada Decision in R. v. Tse Act.

We have known for quite some time now that certain provisions in the Criminal Code needed to be amended. In fact, the Supreme Court decision in R. v. Tse was handed down more than 10 months ago, nearly a year ago, in fact. The decision was very clear: the provisions of Criminal Code section 184.4 had to be amended. We know this; we have spoken a great deal today about the provisions that allow for private communications to be intercepted without prior authorization.

I would like to clarify something at the outset. We in the NDP have no problem with the fact that, sometimes, in order to save lives, in matters of public safety and so on, private communications must be intercepted before prior authorization can be obtained. However, when this is done, and because it is really on the borderline, there must be safeguards in place.

In R. v. Tse, the Supreme Court stated that the existing safeguards are not sufficient to ensure that there is no abuse or undue interference in a person's private matters or that the basic principle of the right to privacy is always respected. As one of my colleagues said, when we see what has been happening recently in surveillance organizations such as CSIS, where there have been serious issues and questionable appointments, it is even more important to have a rigid, clear legislative framework.

In short, the court asked Parliament, the government, to fix the problem, which absolutely had to be done. But what did the government do? It came up with Bill C-30, a terrible bill that was poorly designed and included all sorts of things but did not provide more safeguards. Instead, it increased the power to intercept private communication.

We on this side of the House opposed Bill C-30, and we were not the only ones. Many Canadians across the country strongly opposed it. My office received hundreds of emails and letters from people who were opposed to Bill C-30.

When we opposed it, we were called every name in the book. We were told that we were siding with pedophiles, and so on. Those responsible for the file treated us with their usual haughtiness and arrogance, but as it happens all too often with this government, its arrogance backfired. As the expression goes, when one spits into the wind, it blows back into one's face. That is more or less what happened with Bill C-30.

We graciously admit that Bill C-55 is a little better. That said, we have a small problem with the fact that the Conservatives want it passed so quickly. The Supreme Court ruling on R. v. Tse was handed down on April 13, 2012, and at that time, the court gave us one year to correct the situation.

Almost one year has passed, and the government is finally introducing a bill that is moving in the right direction to correct this situation. That leaves only 19 sitting days to debate this bill at second reading, send it to committee, have it return to the House for third reading and carry out the rest of the process. That is a very short timeframe, and it is truly typical of this government, which is always so short-sighted. I work on international files a lot and I am always fascinated at the lack of foresight of this government. You would think that a year would be long enough for the government to have seen this coming. Are the Conservatives so shortsighted that even a year is too long to plan? That is rather frustrating.

Maybe the government is hoping that the bill will pass easily. In case we were not clear before, we will be clear now. We believe that this bill is necessary, that we must ensure security, but we must also ensure that privacy is protected. We do not have a problem with that.

The problem arises when it comes to doing things right. Many people have concerns about the bill as it stands. Let us look at several examples. The bill talks about peace officers that can intercept communications. However, the term “peace officer” is not defined. Could a private security guard be a peace officer?

The bill deals with the issue of the time required before a person must be notified that his or her communications have been intercepted. Should this be 30 days or 90 days? Can this be extended for up to three years, as it is proposed in certain cases? Where is the happy medium?

There is another even more fundamental problem. What have we done to ensure that the legislation really responds to the Supreme Court case? What evaluation mechanism have we put in place to ensure that, in six months or one or two years, we do not find ourselves before the Supreme Court once again? This government seems to think that the executive branch does not have to answer to anyone and that it is above the law. That is not true. The charter and the Constitution are more important than the Conservatives' or any other party's political agenda.

The committee will have to take a close look at these concerns. Canadians have every reason to be apprehensive about a Conservative privacy bill. The Conservatives have a dismal track record in this area. Regardless, it is never a good idea to speed through bills. It is important to act, but we must do things properly. We have only 19 sitting days left to get this job done. We will roll up our sleeves and work hard.

The government's rush to get this passed unfortunately shows its lack of professionalism and lack of respect for Parliament, which in itself shows a lack of respect for Canadians, who have every right to expect Parliament to work diligently on such important issues.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague.

I have a question, because I am not sure I understand the point regarding defining police officers. For Bill C-55, the Supreme Court has demanded that Parliament develop a clear definition of “police officer”.

Not a peace officer, but a police officer. There may be a problem with the words, “or other person employed for the preservation and maintenance of the public peace”. Perhaps that is the problem? I would like my colleague to speak to that.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is indeed any “other person employed for the preservation and maintenance of the public peace”. As long as there is no clear definition, there is the potential for a violation of the basic rights of Canadians. We need to be very rigorous and very precise about this. We must have a clear definition of this term and all the others.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague from Laurier—Sainte-Marie, who really has a lot of experience. She is sharing her extensive experience here in the House. Her speech today added many facts and striking examples to the discussion of Bill C-55. It is important to note that, as of this morning, we had 19 days left to pass this bill, which has just been introduced.

Now the first day is already over, and we have received no replies to our questions. Since this morning, even though the member for Gatineau, the member for Halifax, the member for Laurier—Sainte-Marie and many others have asked questions, we have not received any answers from the government. The government has therefore lost an entire day even though it introduced the bill late, that is, 19 days before the deadline. The government has known for a year that it must do something.

The question that I would like to ask my colleague from Laurier—Sainte-Marie is very simple. Why does she think the Conservatives are treating this matter with such disdain? Why is their approach so disorganized, when following up on a year-old Supreme Court decision is actually quite an important matter?

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think there are two problems. The first one is probably the most basic. We are in Parliament here. My understanding is that Parliament is a place for talking, for dialogue, for exchanging views in order to find good solutions, solutions that are fair, equitable and effective.

Unfortunately, in my short career as a member of Parliament, I have found that we are now dealing with a government that is not very interested in dialogue, that is not very interested in in-depth discussions on the issues that we are supposed to be debating. This can be seen in Parliament, it can be seen elsewhere in the country, and it can be seen worldwide. It is as though the government has no concept of what dialogue is all about and is completely unaware of how to work with others.

There is of course another matter that may raise a number of concerns. I have received many comments from my constituents regarding respect for the various institutions that are part of Canada’s democracy, including respect for the Constitution, respect for the courts and respect for the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We must understand that these kinds of things are so much more essential than short-term political gains.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to stand today to address Bill C-55, An Act to amend the Criminal Code. I want to talk a bit about the specifics of the bill and the NDP's thoughts on this bill and then move to what is the bigger question, which is the balance between protecting the privacy of citizens and collecting the information we need to make proper policy decisions. Again, I will go through the specifics and then move to the bigger question. Although New Democrats support this bill in general and think it should go to committee for more scrutiny, the government has perhaps an unbalanced or inconsistent approach to these issues that is worth discussing.

Bill C-55 concerns safeguards in relation to authorization to intercept private communications without prior judicial authorization, basically wiretapping, or the state intercepting private communications. This bill requires the federal government and provincial Attorneys General to report interceptions of private communications, requires that the person who had his or her private communications intercepted be notified and narrows the class of people who can make such interceptions. They seem to be reasonable measures that would all be considered by any other country or government around the world that has to undertake these kinds of measures.

These measures seem reasonable to New Democrats, and we will be supporting this bill at least at second reading. We will see what kinds of shenanigans the committee members get up to, but we will make sure the committee has enough time to go through them.

I will be splitting my time with the member for Pierrefonds—Dollard.

Wiretapping is really what this bill is all about. Though we are calling it intercepted communications, we are really talking about wiretapping. Wiretapping has quite a long and sometimes dark history in Canada, and its proper use deserves our full and careful attention. In fact, the creation of our current Canadian Security Intelligence Service, CSIS, has its origins in this whole issue. As agents of the state, police and RCMP, in this case, illegally collected information on citizens during the 1970s. There was such an outcry, mainly from Quebec, that a number of task forces looked into it. They said the RCMP had too much centralized power, so we needed a separate security service, and that is why CSIS was established.

The problem in this case was that the RCMP overstepped its bounds and collected hundreds of hours of illegal wiretaps from Quebec citizens. Some were worthy, but others were to collect information about people at the whim of state agents, in this case the police. Records also show that this practice had been going on for quite some time, as well as outside the boundaries of Quebec. After quite an uproar across the country, CSIS was created. We have been wrestling with these issues and will always wrestle with where the boundaries lie between privacy and collecting necessary information. We need to take care that these past injustices, the misuse and maladministration of justice, do not happen again and that wiretapping only be used in legitimate circumstances and that the practice be as transparent as possible.

Returning to the text of Bill C-55, let me be clear that this bill is simply an updated version of previous Conservative-initiated wiretapping laws that the Supreme Court deemed unconstitutional. This is not a new initiative and, in fact, we are just cleaning up a bit of a mess. Due to this mess, the courts have established new parameters for the protection of privacy, and we need to ensure that this legislation meets these new requirements. We need to make sure the committee gets this right and that it is given ample time to ensure it gets it right this time.

New Democrats want to make sure the committee gets the time, especially when the government is crafting the post-committee version of this bill, because the Conservative record shows that Conservatives are prone to make mistakes in this area.

I want to talk about the whole idea of balancing the need to collect information from citizens to make policy, whether it is security, economic assessments or policy decisions in other areas, and the citizen's need for privacy and the right to protect private communications.

The government really needs to make sure it gets the balance right. We saw before that Bill C-30 was judged too intrusive. It went too far in terms of prying into the private lives of citizens. However, I want to talk about the other side, too, where the Conservatives have erred in terms of perhaps not being clear on what information is important to collect or what they are willing to do in terms of making proper policy decisions.

There are certain members of the Conservative Party, the libertarian wing, such as the member for Nepean—Carleton, who would say that the state has no business, at all, in the lives of citizens. We know that, in its pure form, cannot be true; otherwise that would be anarchy.

What we need to do is make sure we strike the right balance. I am afraid the Conservatives have got it wrong on a number of occasions. For example, the Conservatives have used the excuse of privacy to abolish the long form census. The effects of this action will be felt throughout Canada for years to come. Using the kind of smokescreen of protecting citizens' privacy, we have abolished a tool that has been in use not just in Canada but in almost all countries around the world to inform policy decisions.

Without the long form census, we still have the short form census, which is still mandatory; however it contains very little information. The long form census, which goes to a smaller proportion of the population, collects very valuable information. For example, being somebody who used to work in city planning, I know that cities need these things to plan properly: where to put a new school or what languages should be highlighted in that school. That information comes from the long form census.

Businesses looking to target a particular neighbourhood, wondering if the business will do well there or not, will not be able to target markets with any accuracy without this information. Without the long form census, policy makers will have to fly blind in many areas without these valuable statistics.

We are going to be feeling the ripple effects of not having the long form census for many years to come. Many community members felt very strongly about this, and in fact the head of Statistics Canada felt so strongly that he resigned when the long form census was abolished.

This is what I mean by balance. The Conservatives are keen to wiretap people and to really open that up and not have it be transparent. However, on the other side, Conservatives are not willing to allow the state to collect the information it needs to make proper planning decisions.

Some of my colleagues in this House have raised the spectre of the Conservatives abolishing other surveys with mandatory requirements. We have had the long form census abolished, and the reason given on the other side was that it had a mandatory reporting requirement.

For example, we have the labour force survey, which is mandatory. We have business surveys and agricultural surveys, which are also mandatory. My question for the Conservatives would be where they fall on these issues. Will the government use the name of privacy in vain in order to abolish these critical surveys, or will it cave in to its radical libertarian wing?

It is not just an imbalance between protecting privacy and the state gaining information it needs to make policy; it is also that it is a very inconsistent application. There is no single rule that the government is using in terms of making its policy decisions.

If we abolished the labour force survey, we would probably be kicked out of the OECD. This would not allow us to calculate our unemployment rate, and we would not be able to accurately report to international organizations with any accuracy.

Maybe when the Conservatives are asking questions when I finish my speech, we could have a bit of a debate about where they see the balance between protecting privacy and collecting proper information.