House of Commons Hansard #235 of the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was veterans.

Topics

(Return tabled)

Question No. 1210Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Robert Chisholm NDP Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

With regard to the changes made to the Fisheries Act in Bill C-38 and Bill C-45: (a) which First Nations, Aboriginal groups or organizations have attended or participated in engagement sessions to discuss the proposed amendments to the Act; (b) how much funding has the Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) contributed to the capacity of First Nations to engage on the proposed amendments or on policy and regulation changes in the 2012-2013 fiscal year; (c) which First Nations or Aboriginal organizations have received funding for capacity to engage on proposed amendments or on policies or regulations in the 2012-2013 fiscal year; (d) which First Nations, Aboriginal groups or organizations has DFO worked with to hold or facilitate engagement sessions; (e) what are the dates and locations of meetings funded by DFO and hosted or facilitated by First Nations, Aboriginal groups or organizations to discuss changes to the Fisheries Act or new policies and regulations in the 2012-2013 fiscal year; and (f) how will DFO work with First Nations, Aboriginal groups or organizations to engage on proposed amendments, policies or regulations in the 2013-2014 fiscal year?

(Return tabled)

Question No. 1211Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

With regard to government-purchased mobile data devices: (a) how many were in use by the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development Canada (HRSDC) prior to January 11, 2013, broken down by type of device and HRSDC department; (b) what is the total cost paid by the government for the devices identified in (a); (c) how many of the mobile data devices identified in (a), (i) have been recalled by the department since January 11, 2013, broken down by type of device and HRSDC department, (ii) have been destroyed since January 11, 2013, broken down by type of device and HRSDC department, (iii) will be destroyed, broken down by type of device and HRSDC department; (d) how many personal mobile data devices owned by HRSDC employees have been confiscated by the department, including by senior managers, since January 11, 2013, broken down by type of device and HRSDC department; (e) how many of the devices identified in (a), (i) have been destroyed since January 11, 2013, broken down by type of device and HRSDC department, (ii) will be destroyed, broken down by type of device and HRSDC department; (f) what is the total that (i) has been paid, (ii) will be paid by the government to compensate HRSDC employees for mobile data devices confiscated by the department; and (g) has the department (i) purchased, (ii) made plans to purchase new mobile data devices to replace those recalled and destroyed, and, if so, (iii) how many new devices will be purchased, and at what cost, broken down by type of device and HRSDC department?

(Return tabled)

Question No. 1212Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

With regard to the Department of National Defence: (a) over the past six years, how many transactions involving land or buildings, works and infrastructure and vehicles have been carried out, broken down by (i) land, (ii) buildings, (iii) works and infrastructure, (iv) vehicles; (b) what is the total amount for (a) and for (a)(i), (a)(ii), (a)(iii), (a)(iv); (c) what are the criteria used by the department to determine whether to dispose of these non-financial assets; and (d) what are the actual savings between sale versus the government’s cost of maintaining each of these non-financial assets?

(Return tabled)

Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, I ask that the remaining questions be allowed to stand.

Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Is that agreed?

Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

The Chair has notice of a question of privilege from then hon. member for Malpeque.

Questions Passed as Orders for ReturnsRoutine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Speaker, I gave the Clerk a letter saying I would hold it for another day, that I would not point that question of privilege today.

Opposition Motion—Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection AgreementBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

moved:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should inform the Government of the People's Republic of China, that it will not ratify the Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection Agreement.

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to move a motion on behalf of the official opposition, the New Democrats, to direct the Government of Canada to inform the Government of the People's Republic of China that it will not ratify the Canada-China foreign investment promotion and protection agreement. In doing so, I rise proudly in the knowledge that we are discharging a profound responsibility to this chamber, to Canadians and to our country.

This FIPA is critically flawed in a number of ways and, if allowed to proceed in its present form, will do serious damage to Canada. In fact, in view of the very serious concerns raised about this deal by international trade experts and others, it would be absolutely reckless for the government to proceed to ratify this treaty. Indeed, I believe that many members on the government side are aware of the dangers this deal presents to Canadian interests and are troubled by the agreement's violation of core Canadian values.

I say this because even though the government has been in a position to implement the treaty for over five months now, it has declined to do so. While there may be several reasons for this delay, I believe that one of them is the distinct awareness that this deal is bad for Canada, fails our businesses, threatens our economic interests, violates our democratic processes and puts our taxpayers at risk.

Before proceeding to outline these flaws and shortcomings in detail, I would like to set forth some general principles that the New Democrats hold when it comes to this issue.

New Democrats believe in the importance of engaging with diverse economies and emerging markets. We support the development of clear rules that give confidence to investors, create level playing fields, preserve democratic policy-making and are transparent and accountable to Canadians. We believe in trade and investment policies that promote and protect Canada's interests.

With respect to China, we believe that Canada should deepen and broaden our economic relations. China is the second-largest economy in the world, it is in ascendancy and there are many opportunities for mutual benefit and synergies between our two nations. Developing a rules-based framework that improves the investment and economic activities in both countries is desirable and necessary. With careful negotiation, it is also achievable.

New Democrats know that an investment agreement done well has the potential to be of great benefit to both countries. However, a deal that is poorly negotiated risks doing great harm. Because the Conservatives have taken an extreme ideological approach to negotiating and ratifying trade and investment agreements, they have concluded a carelessly and poorly negotiated deal. Put bluntly, this FIPA will do harm to Canada's economic interests. Canadians deserve better.

Let me start, then, with a summary of the problems with this FIPA.

It ties the hands of Canadian governments at all levels—municipal, provincial, federal and first nations—and restricts them from taking legislative measures in the public interest. It exposes Canadian taxpayers to huge liabilities and multi-billion-dollar lawsuits by foreign corporations if they feel that public legislation affects their profit expectations. It is imbalanced and lacks reciprocity for Canadian investors. It does not help Canadian investors effectively break in to China's markets. It puts at risk Canada's vital natural resources, including those in strategic areas such as energy, and allows these assets to be controlled by foreign state interests, including state-owned enterprises that serve foreign state interests, not commercial ones. It contains an unaccountable dispute resolution mechanism that allows China or Canada to hear lawsuits involving taxpayers' money outside Canadian courts and in secret: no public access, no public disclosure, no media, no transparency and no accountability. It subordinates our environment to corporate interests and puts legislative efforts to protect our land, air and water at risk of being struck down by corporate lawsuits.

It was passed by the Conservatives with no consultation with provinces, first nations, trade experts, business, labour or the public. Outside of this one day called for by the New Democrats, there has not been a single minute of democratic debate after 18 years of negotiation. Once ratified, this FIPA will lock Canada into these damaging terms for a minimum of 31 years.

This is a major economic initiative, and contrary to repeated Conservative misstatements, a deal that raises concerns unlike any other. It concerns billions of dollars of investment. It is the first time since NAFTA that Canada has signed an investor protection agreement with a country that is a major investor in Canada. Unlike virtually every other FIPA Canada has signed, China is a major capital exporting nation with massive foreign currency reserves.

Let us look at the numbers. Chinese investment in Canada hardly registered in 2007. It was too small to record. In 2011, it was $11 billion. In 2012, it doubled to $22.5 billion. According to the Conference Board of Canada, China is projected to be Canada's number two foreign investor in Canada by 2020, exceeding $50 billion a year. That is in seven years.

Before the $15 billion CNOOC-Nexen takeover, Chinese state-owned enterprises, such as PetroChina, Sinopec and CNOOC, had already invested over $10 billion in the Canadian oil and gas sector and controlled more than 7% of Canada's oil sands interests. Today, over $25 billion of Canada's oil sector is controlled by China's state-controlled firms.

Let me quote an economist, Wendy Dobson. She said, “There is a tidal wave that is heading out of China in the next decade and I don't think we're ready for it”.

She estimated that this tidal wave amounted to more than $1 trillion of investment worldwide to acquire access to resources and technology. Yet this deal, which will involve those sums of money, was rammed through this Parliament without any study, debate or vote.

On October 23, as official opposition critic for international trade, I presented a motion to the Standing Committee on International Trade to conduct a study of the agreement and to call a varied list of Canadian stakeholders to committee to provide their views. Conservatives refused to even debate that motion in public. No study was agreed to.

On October 31, the NDP member for Ottawa Centre rose to request an emergency debate on the FIPA. That request was denied by the government.

On October 2, 18, 24, 25 and 31, members of the NDP rose in question period to request that the FIPA be properly studied by a parliamentary committee. Each time, the Conservatives refused even to address the merits of the question.

Through Leadnow, some 80,000 Canadians have sent messages to the government voicing their concerns about this FIPA and requesting proper study and prudence. Just yesterday, in one day, I received over 17,000 emails after this motion calling for this debate was made public. That was in 24 hours. Despite all of this widespread concern and opposition, the Conservative government has refused to bring this FIPA forward for debate, study or vote.

I want to turn to some of the details of why this FIPA is so dangerous and poorly negotiated. I will turn first to natural resources.

This FIPA requires Canada to award national treatment to investments made by Chinese firms once established in Canada. This paves the way for a massive natural resources buyout and foreign-state expansion of ownership in our economy. For example, I have referenced CNOOC's recent purchase of Nexen, which was approved by the Conservatives. Under the FIPA, if CNOOC wants to expand by buying up other oil interests, it can, and it must be treated by this FIPA as if it were a Canadian company. Any attempt by any government to limit this expansion may be met by a lawsuit claiming damages for unequal treatment.

There is a loophole in this FIPA: non-producing oil properties are not subject to Investment Canada Act review. This means that when oil reserves are present, but drilling has not yet commenced, those oil leases are not subject to any kind of review and therefore would qualify under this FIPA for national treatment.

This FIPA will place Canada's strategic oil reserves, and in fact strategic sectors beyond oil, into the hands of foreign states and state-owned enterprises that do not operate as purely commercial businesses but rather would serve the interests of a foreign state. This locks us into a dangerous path of foreign ownership and resource extraction until at least 2044.

Canadians are opposed to this. Canadians want a national conversation and a policy that makes responsible choices for the wisest long-term stewardship of our natural resources in Canada.

This deal is unbalanced. First, this deal allows both parties to maintain their current non-conforming measures. This means that both countries commit to not implementing any new discriminatory barriers to each other's investors in the future, but the agreement allows both to keep any existing non-conforming measures.

Here is the problem. China has been and is a command economy. It has many non-conforming measures. These include requiring foreign investors in China to partner with local Chinese enterprises, to use local suppliers and to source local goods and services. Anyone who has done business in China is well aware of these requirements. However, Canada, which has been on a trade liberalization trajectory for the last 30 years, has largely eliminated such requirements. The result: Canadian investors are at a major disadvantage. This deal fails to secure reciprocal and equal access to China for Canadian investors.

When I asked DFAIT officials at committee for a list of China's non-conforming measure, they first said that they did not have them, then they said that they were on the website, and then they said that they were not sure. The government has signed an agreement allowing China to keep non-conforming measures in place that bind Canadian investors, and it cannot even tell us what they are.

In addition, this deal fails to include Canada's pre-establishment rights model, which grants protections to both existing investors and those seeking to invest. Instead, the Conservatives have acceded to the Chinese model, which provides very little protection to prospective investors compared to existing ones. The result: again, imbalance against Canadian investors. Why? It is because relatively speaking, Canadian investment in China is a relatively small $4.5 billion. In 2012, China had five times that amount invested in Canada, and it is growing exponentially.

As Paul Wells wrote last September, when this deal was released, quoting an investment analysis: “It will be interesting to see if this is spun as an agreement that 'liberalizes' or opens markets for Canadians. If it is, that will not be true”.

Canadian companies need and deserve an agreement that helps remove the barriers that are keeping them out of Chinese markets. The simple reality is that this FIPA fails to provide effective tools to challenge the protectionist barriers the Chinese government has at its disposal to block new foreign investment in the profitable sectors of its economy. For certain, access to sensitive areas of the Chinese economy by Canadian investors has been restricted, while Canada has thrown the doors wide open to firms from China.

This deal will also expose Canadian taxpayers to expensive litigation and billions of dollars in damages. This FIPA provides a mechanism to Chinese companies to sue the federal government if they feel that Canada has passed regulations or policies that they feel amount to unfair treatment or that interfere with their expectations of profits or future expansion.

Foreign corporations can sue Canadian governments and cost Canadian taxpayers billions of dollars. I would like to emphasize that this is not the Conservatives' money; this is Canadian taxpayers' money for enacting laws that protect our energy security, environment, jobs or public health.

This is not a hypothetical concern. Chinese state-owned insurance company Ping An sued Belgium for $3 billion in damages after its profit expectations were not met after the European recession. Canada has been forced to pay damages exceeding $157 million to U.S. firm AbitibiBowater following the Newfoundland government's decision, after the company closed its pulp and paper mill, to reclaim the water and timber use rights it had provided. An investor-state tribunal has now ruled against the Government of Canada in another case, because the Newfoundland government tried to get foreign oil companies to invest a certain amount in local research and development to create good jobs in that province. The amount of damages that have to be paid has not yet been released.

Other lawsuits have been filed challenging Quebec's decision to place a moratorium on fracking, Ontario's offshore wind power policy and the Canadian court's invalidation of a drug patent.

In short, this FIPA provides protectionist policies for foreign corporate profits and not for the well-being of Canadians, our economy or our environment.

As the South African government put it, “Investor-state dispute resolution that opens the door for narrow commercial interests to...matters of vital national interest” is a direct challenge to “constitutional and democratic policy-making”.

Let us hear it from the horse's mouth. Here is what one of the international arbitrators himself had to say about the exact type of clause contained in this FIPA:

When I wake up at night and think about arbitration, it never ceases to amaze me that sovereign states have agreed to investment arbitration at all. Three private individuals are entrusted with the power to review, without any restriction or appeal procedure, all actions of the government, all decisions of the courts, and all laws and regulations emanating from parliament.

That was Juan Fernández-Armesto, an arbitrator from Spain.

Canadians do not agree with this.

All 50 U.S. states, every one of them, have passed resolutions opposing the application of investor-state dispute resolution mechanisms in their jurisdictions. They did it last year again.

Let us look at the investor-state dispute mechanism in this particular FIPA. This deal changes Canada's long-standing policy of ensuring public access, public disclosure and transparency in arbitrations. For the first time in Canadian history, the Conservatives have agreed to a dispute resolution procedure that violates the Canadian tradition of open courts at the whim of three arbitrators who have no responsibility or accountability whatsoever to Canadians.

I thought Conservatives did not like unelected judges overturning democratic decisions by elected officials. However, in this case, they cannot help but trample down the door and give over sovereignty to three unappointed, unaccountable, world legal arbitrators to overrule decisions made in this Parliament. That is undemocratic and indicative of Conservative principles.

These panels lack the standards and safeguards that apply to judges in Canadian courts. There is no security of tenure for arbitrators, raising concerns about their ability to be impartial. There is no prohibition on arbitrators being paid for non-judicial activities, giving rise to apprehensions about bias and conflicts of interest. Worst of all, these hearings can be conducted in secret, and documents can be hidden from the public.

I have heard a lot of dissembling from the government, so I am going to read for Canadians exactly what the FIPA says in article 28. It states: “Where a disputing Contracting Party”—that is the sued state—“determines that it is in the public interest to do so...all other documents submitted to, or issued by, the Tribunal shall also be publicly available”.

Here is the next clause: “Where...a disputing Contracting Party”—that is the state being sued—“determines that it is in the public interest to do so...hearings held under this Part shall be open to the public”.

If China determines that it is not in the public interest to do so, at its sole discretion, hearings are not open to the public and documents need not be disclosed. What a violation of Canada's tradition of open courts, where Canadians can see justice done when their money is on the line.

Canadians can decide for themselves when Conservatives stand up and say that these hearings will be held in public. I read it right there in black and white.

Interestingly, Canada has made 16 claims through NAFTA's ISDS mechanisms, mostly against the U.S., and we have never won a single case. Neither the U.S. nor China, on the other hand, have ever lost an arbitration brought against them by another country.

I want to talk about the environment a bit. I want to read a section of the FIPA, as well. One would think that when Canada negotiates a deal on corporate interests, it would make sure that nothing in that agreement would inhibit the ability of Canadians governments to protect the environment. Here is what the clause says:

Provided that such measures are not applied in an arbitrary or unjustifiable manner, or do not constitute a disguised restriction on international trade or investment, nothing in this Agreement shall be construed to prevent a Contracting Party from adopting or maintaining measures, including environmental measures: (a) necessary to ensure compliance with laws and regulations that are not inconsistent with the provisions of this Agreement

What does that mean? Why do they not just say that nothing in the agreement would prevent any Canadian government from taking any measure to protect the environment, period. That is what the Conservatives could have said. They did not.

The government failed to consult. Wise governments consult, especially when important issues involving Canada's economy, resources and policy-making freedom are at stake, and especially when we are talking about profoundly large deals that would bind Canada's interests for the next three decades.

Canadians want us to be prudent, cautious, informed and intelligent, yet after 18 years of negotiation, the Conservatives have announced this FIPA as a fait accompli, take it or leave it, without conducting a minute of consultation. Predictably, the Conservatives have been taken to court by a first nations lawsuit that was filed on January 18 because of this lack of consultation.

In conclusion, no rational government that cares about Canada's economic interests, democratic policy-making, and citizens' interests could possibly stand beside such a flawed agreement. No prudent government that is sincerely concerned about Canada's future generations, resource security, and environment could possibly defend this FIPA in its current form. No responsible government could defend an agreement that has taken 18 years to negotiate, that would bind Canada for 31 years, and that would affect billions of dollars of investment without proper study and input from Canadians.

Canadians want and deserve a well-negotiated agreement with our trading partners, including China. Let us take the time to ensure we secure such an agreement.

I urge all members of this House to support this prudent, thoughtful, and wise motion.

Opposition Motion—Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection AgreementBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

South Shore—St. Margaret's Nova Scotia

Conservative

Gerald Keddy ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Trade

Mr. Speaker, I will try to be fairly brief in my question. I listened closely to the hon. member's speech. It is not just anti-investment, it is basically anti-trade.

There are a couple of corrections to be made.

I think one of the most important ones is the right to regulate in the public interest. The hon. member knows full well, even though he would not state it in his speech, that under this treaty, both Canada and China have the right to regulate in the public interest. Chinese investors in Canada must obey the laws and regulations of Canada, just as Canadian investors in China must obey the laws and regulations in China.

Another point the hon. member made that is absolutely incorrect is that the government denied an emergency debate. The government does not denied emergency debates, Mr. Speaker. You deny emergency debates.

There are a few small corrections.

However, here is the issue. I do not understand the NDP's position on investment. Perhaps you can enlighten me. You do not want Chinese investment in Canada. You do not want Canadian investment in China--

Opposition Motion—Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection AgreementBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

Order, please.

The parliamentary secretary has now asked me three times what my position is and what the chair's position is. It is not my role to answer that.

So, I would ask the parliamentary secretary to direct his comments and questions to the chair, not asking him to involve himself in the debate.

Opposition Motion—Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection AgreementBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Mr. Speaker, of course, through you, to the hon. member, the issue here is quite simple. The hon. member and the party do not want Chinese investment in Canada. They do not want Canadian investment in China. Then why are they asking every day to have the tariff on Chinese products coming into Canada reduced, which would put our manufacturers at a disadvantage?

Opposition Motion—Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection AgreementBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Mr. Speaker, I have said before that the Conservative government's trade policies are incoherent, and we just saw an example. Now, I think the hon. member is arguing for increasing tariffs on China, and 72 other countries. I would have thought that the Conservative government's trade policy would be to reduce tariffs. Instead, it wants to justify increasing them. I fail to understand that policy.

For that matter, we saw thePrime Minister go to India not too long ago and announce with great fanfare the pursuit of a Canada-India trade agreement, the purpose of which is to reduce tariffs, and brought over $1 million worth armoured cars at the same time.

And so, while we sat at a table in India, trying to negotiate reductions of tariffs, we come back in this House and the government increases tariffs in India. I will leave it to the Canadian public to understand the coherence of that.

The bottom line is that the matter is not simple. The Conservatives always want to reduce this to some sort of simple and usually incorrect and false accusation.

Of course, the New Democrats support investment from China. Of course, we support signing investment deals that would protect investors. I said that in my speech.

The question here is whether or not this agreement would accomplish those goals. We have laid that out in detailed form, as have many Canadians, trade experts, academics, businesses, including people who are very much in favour of investment and trade agreements, who are concerned about this FIPA.

I wish the government would listen and actually study the details of the agreement instead of relying on pure rhetoric and spin.

Opposition Motion—Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection AgreementBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Speaker, I enjoy working with the trade critic for the NDP and expect my office received many of the same emails that he mentioned receiving overnight on this particular issue.

I disagree with the NDP motion, by the way, to just throw this out. We need rules around investment, serious rules, but I understand why the motion was put. As the member said, there was a request for an emergency debate, which was denied by the Speaker as it was not seen as an emergency, and there were several attempts by myself and the NDP to have the committee look at this issue, but, of course, the Conservative members on the committee would not even allow that debate to happen in public and the motions were lost.

My question to the member relates to the box that I think all parliamentarians are in. This motion is to reject the agreement. I believe the member would probably agree that if we had transparency around the discussion and hearings across the country and maybe other countries around the world to put in place the safeguards to make this investment treaty work for Canadians, then maybe we could come up with a better treaty. My question to the member is along those lines. Why can we not get that kind of transparent and open debate and would that not be a better procedure, so that there is investment protection for Canadian investors and we can improve our economic relationship?

Opposition Motion—Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection AgreementBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Mr. Speaker, I very much enjoy working with the hon. member for Malpeque on the trade committee as well. I must say I am disappointed to hear that the Liberal Party will not support the motion, though. All the motion says is that the Government of Canada should inform the Government of China that it will not ratify the FIPA. That is all it says. In its present form, this FIPA is seriously flawed. There is nothing in the motion that says we would not seek to amend or improve the agreement to put it in a form that would actually be acceptable to Canadians.

I want to talk for a moment about the Conservatives' refusal to debate this. They often boast about the fact that, unlike the Liberals before them, they put trade agreements before the House for debate, but they do not do that with investment agreements and I do not understand the difference. When Canada signs a treaty that covers trading goods and services, that is considered appropriate to put before the House for scrutiny, but when Canada signs a treaty that covers investment, they do not consider that to be worthy of the same treatment. I do not understand that.

If the Conservatives believe that this deal they have signed is justified, why do they not bring it forward and make arguments in front of the Canadian people? Parliamentarians have a prime responsibility, and that is to come here, debate legislation, and give it a thorough scrutiny before it is passed. The Conservatives have a majority and can ultimately pass what they want, but why are they afraid of detailed scrutiny? Why are they afraid of bringing in people from across this country, such as trade experts, academics, economists, business people, people who trade, the public, provinces, and first nations, and really taking a look at this agreement?

Once again, it took 18 years to negotiate, it would be in force for 31 years. We can take a few weeks or months to make sure that Canada gets it right. New Democrats say we should. Why do the Conservatives not?

Opposition Motion—Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection AgreementBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for Vancouver Kingsway and his entire caucus for finally allowing this issue to come forward for debate. He will recall I raised it in the House before it was tabled for 21 days of non-debate but sitting before us, and I requested an emergency debate on the matter twice. Rather than detail the history of a lack of debate, let us get into this one.

The hon. member mentioned corporate lawsuits and I want to hang on the word “corporate” for a moment. In investor state agreements we never have lawsuits, really, let us admit. There is, as the member described, a hotel room somewhere where three $1,000-an-hour global arbitrators make decisions that binds governments and cannot be appealed. In the interests of a Canada-China investment treaty, we are not actually talking about corporations. We are talking the People's Republic of China and state-owned enterprises. It means we will be sitting down, essentially, nation to nation and the People's Republic of China will be in a very different situation than U.S. corporations under chapter 11 of NAFTA. China can link its investments and, in private, use diplomatic pressure to tell Canada that if we do not change our laws, it could pull all of its investments. This is a different feature and I want to ask the member to comment on that.

Opposition Motion—Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection AgreementBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for bringing up what I think is a very special consideration about this FIPA.

She is quite right. What we are talking about here are not just normal corporations as we understand them in the western legal tradition. We are talking about are state-owned enterprises. State-owned enterprises are organizations that provide different considerations. State-owned enterprises in China do not exist solely to make decisions in the best interests of their commercial interests. State-owned enterprises are also there to advance the interests of the Chinese state.

I am not saying that there is anything necessarily wrong with that, but what we must be careful about is allowing those kinds of state-owned enterprises to have key ownership of strategic resources in our country because they will not be acting in commercial interests, they will be acting to exploit those resources in the interests of a foreign state.

That is not good for Canada. It is not good for our resources. It is not good for our environment. New Democrats will stand up to make sure we have a better deal than that.

Opposition Motion—Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection AgreementBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

South Shore—St. Margaret's Nova Scotia

Conservative

Gerald Keddy ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Trade

Mr. Speaker, this opportunity to debate the motion by the member for Vancouver Kingsway gives me a bit more time to expand on some of the ideas I have on his motion and on the lack of time in questioning. Let us be clear and let us try, in the interests of openness and honesty in this place, to lay out the parameters of what we are actually discussing.

I have heard a lot of talk about the inability to debate this in the House. Of course, the hon. member would know that, prior to the Conservatives' coming to government in 2006, there was no ability to debate treaties, not just investment treaties but any treaty in the House. We debated free trade agreements because that is legislation, but there was no ability to debate treaties. We changed that law to allow treaties to be debated. Since coming to power, we have signed FIPAs with 11 countries: Iran, China, Czech Republic, Jordan, Peru, Kuwait, Latvia, Madagascar, Mali, Romania and Slovakia. Apparently, none of those were worthy of debate; they are basically all the same format.

Opposition Motion—Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection AgreementBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Opposition Motion—Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection AgreementBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

I hear a lot of squealing from the opposition benches, but they are all the same format and basically all the same agreement. None of those were worthy of debate, but somehow this one is different.

Now let us expand on the debate a little further. It was tabled in the House on September 26, 2012. This is the 17th opposition day, not the first or the second or the third, that the official opposition has had to debate this treaty. I will forgive the Liberals on this one because they said from the beginning that they are going to support the treaty, so they do not need to debate it in this House. However, there is an opportunity to debate this treaty in this House. This is the opportunity. It is the 17th item on the NDP list of priorities. That is what we are dealing with here, nothing more and nothing less.

Let us just stop for a second, and look at how this treaty unfolds and how it would actually work for Canadian investors. The key message with this foreign investment promotion and protection agreement, and with all the rest of them, is that it is about rules. It is about rules-based investing, in the same way as we have rules for rules-based trading. Anytime we have rules, we know exactly what the parameters are, we know exactly what we are getting into when we make an investment and we can make that investment with some surety.

We made a promise to Canadians when we formed government in 2006 that we would provide jobs, prosperity and opportunity. Of course, with the downturn in 2009 that became more difficult, but Canada is still in an enviable position with our economy compared to all the other economies in the world.

To come back to this FIPA for a moment, what we are dealing with here is a foreign investment promotion and protection agreement with the second-largest economy in the world. Yes, it took 18 years to negotiate and that is no mean feat, and I give some of the credit to the former government that started it for the right reasons. However, our government finished it, and we put it into place because we need this investment agreement to deal on equal footing with the Chinese, for Canadian investors investing in China. They need this protection much more, I would argue, than Chinese investors investing in Canada. However, there is a little thing that the New Democrats obviously do not understand and that is called “reciprocity”. When we have a set of rules, we have to offer that same set of rules to the partner in the agreement.

This agreement was signed to protect Canadian investors in China through stable, predictable rules and protection against discriminatory and arbitrary practices. Opposition members can try to make it more complicated than that, but it is no more complicated than that. It allows predictability. It allows transparency, and there is transparency and public access to any arbitration. The idea that there is not is simply incorrect. All of the hearings, all of the paperwork, will be provided to Canadians upon request, and there will be transparent public access to the dispute settlement procedures.

I am going to get off this topic and talk about trade a little bit, because it is all one and the same. What we have is a party that is anti-trade and now it is coming out to be anti-investment. For businesses looking to set up in China, the Chinese could not treat a Canadian company less favourably than they would any other foreign company looking to do the same thing. Once an investment is made, a Canadian business could not be treated less favourably than any other business, including Chinese businesses.

I really cannot comprehend the opposition to this treaty. We are creating a secure, predictable environment for Canadian investors, and we are not doing any more than that. There is nothing hidden here. This is about opportunity for Canadian investors in China. This is about equal footing and reciprocity for Chinese investors in Canada. We are dealing here with the world's second-largest economy with arguably the largest reserves of foreign currency of any nation in the world, and we are hearing from the official opposition members that we do not want to trade with China, and I do not know where they expect this country to go.

I started to articulate my opposition to their line of questioning on the favoured nation status for imports coming from China or exports from China to Canada. I think we have to draw them together. For the public listening to this, here is the dichotomy. On one side of the equation, the official opposition is against rules-based investing and rules-based trading apparently with China, and on the other side of the equation, the official opposition asks that China, the second-largest economy in the world, remain on the preferred nations list. That list of 72 nations was put together for emerging economies, nations and people living in poverty, to give them an opportunity to get out of that situation and to move from an emerging economy to a mature economy.

Most people would argue that China has done that. So have India, Brazil and a number of other countries that were on the list. They no longer have a preferential tariff coming into Canada. They are now on equal footing with Canadian companies. They do not have that advantage. This is one and the same. We are talking about the same issue here. I find it bizarre that the anti-investment position the NDP takes is the same anti-trade position it takes. Since we formed government in 2006, we have been opening up trade. We have been trading with countries around the world.

We continue to get static from the official opposition and sometimes from the Liberals, though the Liberals tend to at least say they believe in free trade. We saw a number of trade agreements, and it is as if trade and investment do not account for anything in Canada. It accounts for one out of every five jobs and it accounts for 64% of Canadians' annual income. That may not be important to the opposition parties, but it is certainly important to us.

The Liberals were in power for 13 years and they signed three trade agreements. One of them was an extension of NAFTA, which they were going to get rid of but could not, because it was too important. They saw the error of that and they changed their ways, which I appreciate, because governments are sometimes forced into positions they did not originally take.

We are continuing to negotiate deals around the world. We are working on a free trade agreement with India, and we are working on a free trade agreement with Japan. At committee, we have been discussing the Pacific alliance, although again, the NDP and the Liberals do not want to discuss that agreement and its potential. Here is their logic and it is not unlike their logic with the FIPA with China: It is not important. It is not important to Canadians and it is not important enough for us to take our time to conduct even a precursory study or to take even a brief glance at it, to see if it is worth pursuing.

When we look at the real numbers in that agreement—and it is no different from the position they are taking on the FIPA with India—we have Chile, Peru, Colombia and Mexico. We have already got bilateral agreements with those countries and we have already got a very good trading relationship with them, but those countries put together make up the ninth-largest trading bloc in the world. The answer we get from the opposition is that it does not want to study this. It does not want to look at it, it does not want to talk about it or think about it because it is not important.

What is important? The opposition does not want a foreign investment promotion and protection agreement with China, because it is not important enough. The second-largest economy in the world and a growing and dynamic nation that we need to do greater business with, and we will continue to do greater business with, is not important enough. The opposition is not going to support the CETA, the comprehensive economic trade agreement with the European Union, because it is apparently not important enough. The NDP does know about that. There were 28 countries on July 1. The official opposition does realize the importance, I would hope, of this; the ability for Canada to expand with traditional trading partners and form potentially one of the most, if not the most, important trading bloc in the world.

Canada, with 33 million people, would sit between the United States, with 330 million people and an affluent economy that is starting to rebound, and the European economy, which even though it is struggling has 500 million consumers and is one of the wealthiest economies in the world. Canada, with 33 million people and goods, services and talented workers to offer those economies, would be between those two huge economies in an enviable position to any nation on earth, and all we get from the opposition, in place of support, is condemnation.

I cannot understand that for the life of me. Perhaps we are going to see some type of an epiphany on behalf of the official opposition. Perhaps it is going to change its ways. Perhaps it will begin to embrace investment and trade.

I have seen nothing to assure me that this will occur. First, we really have to look at our position on investment, which we have discussed. Second, we have to look at our position on trade and our rejuvenated global commerce strategy, which allows Canadian goods, services, talent and investments to be spread around the world. In our own hemisphere, we have to look at our Americas strategy and the importance of that Americas strategy to many of our provincial manufacturers that, by looking at the Americas, and not just the United States and Mexico but also looking at the Caribbean, Central America and South America, are able to invest in real time, in their own time zone, not talking to somebody 10 or 11 hours away, in the western hemisphere.

We will continue that strategy. We will continue the Americas strategy. We will continue our strategy for the Caribbean. We will continue a global commerce strategy, because it is good for Canadians, for manufacturing and for workers.

The NDP record deserves to be discussed because it has brought forward the motion. It is 17th in the NDP list of priorities. The NDP had 17 oppositions days to debate this, but chose not to do so. Now all of a sudden it is a priority.

I believe it has become a priority for the NDP because it was hoping that by holding back there would be some kind of groundswell of support. That did not occur. The hon. member said that he had 17,000 emails, but I do not know if that 17,000 emails is 1,700 emails sent 10 times or if it is 170 emails sent 100 times. I certainly received some of those form emails. It was a matter that someone forwarded it to someone else, and then it could be forwarded to a member of Parliament. I had emails that had reasonable, responsible concerns that were easily addressed.

Let us take a look at the NDP trade and investment record and at what the New Democratic Party is actually saying. Page 18 of the NDP policy book states, “New Democrats believe in renegotiating the North American Free Trade Agreement”. That is incredible. The trade critic, the member for Vancouver Kingsway, said that he would not support a free trade agreement because trade unions did not want it. Those are his words, not mine. I am just reading it back.

The former NDP trade critic from Windsor West has said that he supports the efforts of big union bosses to stop any further trade negotiations with Korea, Japan and the European Union.

Are we to become isolationists? Are we to withdraw? Are we to lose that slight advantage that we have over other countries in the G7, the G8 and the WTO?

These are difficult times. The world is truly at a crossroads. The economy is struggling. We have never said anything else. However, we are better off because of prudent fiscal management than all of our neighbours.

Let us look at some more quotes. I only have a minute left and I want to get these on the record.

The former NDP trade critic from Dartmouth—Cole Harbour described the free trade agreements as “job destroying”.

The member for British Columbia Southern Interior said that trade agreements threatened the very existence of our nation.

The member for Welland said that the Conservative government told them that free trade was good for all of us, and he begged to differ.

The former critic from Burnaby—New Westminster even said in the House that free trade had cost Canadians dearly.

I ask Canadians to use some common sense. There is nothing hidden here. There is nothing untoward. This is a straightforward investment agreement that would allow Canadians investing in China to do so with assurance and would offer the same rights to Chinese investors in Canada.

Opposition Motion—Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection AgreementBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Mr. Speaker, a government that does not consult is a poor government. A government that does not listen is an incompetent government. A government that misleads Canadians is a dangerous government. All three of those apply to the Conservative government.

My hon. colleague talked about counting. People are counting. They are counting the trade deficit under the government. When the Conservatives came to power in 2006, we had a trade surplus of $17 billion. Today, after six and a half years of the Conservatives being in power, we have a trade deficit of $67 billion. That is the record of the present government. We have a record merchandise trade deficit approaching $100 billion. The percentage of our exports that are made of raw or barely processed items is going up and the percentage of our exports of refined or value-added is going down. The consequences of the Conservative trade policy are disastrous for our country, and my hon. friend can only respond by misleading and spin.

My colleague keeps saying that we have open arbitration. I am going to read again from the FIPA under Public Access to Hearings and Documents. Article 28 states:

Where...a disputing Contracting Party determines that it is in the public interest to do so...hearings held under this Part shall be open to the public

Does my colleague not understand that if a contracting party decides it is not in the public interest to do so, it can decline to have hearings in public? If my friend thought this deal was so good, and this is a government agreement, why did the Conservatives not bring it forward for debate in this chamber, which we are doing here today, instead of attacking the opposition?