House of Commons Hansard #266 of the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was treaties.

Topics

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON

Mr. Speaker, clearly, our government is focused on balancing the budget, on meeting the obligations of the country, growing our economy and creating jobs for Canadians. In order to achieve all our goals, every Canadian has to do their fair share in meeting their tax obligations.

On my friend's comments, tax evasion is an offence. It is something to which we should take strong exception. I support his comment that whoever in the country is not paying their fair share of taxes should be held accountable and should be forced to meet their obligations. That is how we will meet our obligations as a nation.

I should add that over the period, Canada has had the strongest job creation record in the entire G7. We are recognized by the OECD as a leader in global economies. That is because we are doing things right, economically. Our banking system is solid and we are meeting our obligations in collecting our taxes. Therefore, absolutely, all Canadians have an obligation.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:25 p.m.

NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, my distinguished colleague from Ontario has given me the perfect opportunity to talk about fraudsters. Perhaps the member could tell us more about the following question. When someone uses $90,000 of taxpayers' money to pay back money stolen from the Senate, is that $90,000 taxable? When someone invoices $300,000 for personal expenses, that is income. Will senators also be taxed on that income? Will they declare that money on their tax returns?

We live in a glass house, and people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Before I go to the hon. member for Don Valley West, just a reminder to all hon. members to try to keep their questions, comments and answers related to the matter before the House.

The hon. member for Don Valley West.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have to reject the premise on which my hon. colleague placed his question. First, he talked about $90,000 of taxpayer money. The understanding of the House, to the best of our knowledge and the information we have, is that was paid by a private individual. It is being addressed through audits and through various sources, including the ethics commissioner, and those issues will be addressed.

I hear him on living in glass houses. The only problem is that tonight we are living in a glass House of Bill S-17 and talking about tax treaties. Quite frankly, his question has no bearing whatsoever on that.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:25 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, it was unfair for the member for York Centre to attack the member for Jeanne-Le Ber. We all know that tax avoidance is not the same as tax evasion. During this debate, I have googled McCarthy Tétrault. It is already advising its well-heeled clients how to avoid the implications of various tax measures, whereas the artistic community, many of whom survive on less than $12,000 a year, but one year might have good earnings, has been working as a group for many years as a matter of good public policy to fix this by allowing averaging out for people in that community.

It is unfair and it is not just the member for York Centre. There is a continual effort to beat up on one member of the House who was very active in the ACTRA community before being elected. I just feel it is egregious.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I did not hear a question per se, but within any tax system, there are provisions that allow and provide a road map for taxpayers to pay their taxes, in specific instances, within economic action plan 2013. The member mentioned McCarthy Tétrault as one example of a company that provides advice to its clients. Every auditing firm and legal firm across the county does, similarly, in helping their clients to meet their tax obligations in a fair and legal way.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:30 p.m.

Willowdale Ontario

Conservative

Chungsen Leung ConservativeParliamentary Secretary for Multiculturalism

Mr. Speaker, I am thankful for this opportunity to speak at second reading of Bill S-17.

As members know, this bill would implement Canada's recently concluded tax treaties with Namibia, Serbia, Poland, Hong Kong, Luxembourg and Switzerland. These new and updated fees would augment Canada's strong network of tax treaties.

Indeed, currently Canada has comprehensive tax treaties in place with 90 countries, one of the world's largest network of bilateral tax treaties. This is an important feature to Canada's international tax system, a feature that is key to our ability to compete.

As part of Canada's ongoing effort to update and modernize our network of income tax treaties, Bill S-17 would achieve two important objectives.

First, it would help combat tax evasion by ensuring Canada works with other countries to stop tax cheats. Clearly, I would hope that all parliamentarians and Canadians would agree that everyone should pay their fair share of taxes.

Second, it would help encourage global trade by preventing double taxation.

In my time today, I would like to focus specifically and in greater detail on what the tax treaties with Namibia, Serbia, Poland, Hong Kong mean.

First I will speak about Namibia.

Canada's proud and active engagement with Namibia dates from 1977 to 1982 negotiations on the United Nation settlement plan. Canada actively supported Namibia's independence in 1989-90 and provided military peacekeepers, police monitors, election supervisors and technical experts.

On the global stage, there are a number of areas in which Canada and Namibia actively co-operate. These include the Kimberley process, to control the trade in conflict diamonds, initiatives to control high seas overfishing and the commercial seal harvest.

Bilateral merchandise trade between Canada and Namibia was $238.2 million in 2011, with Canadian imports from Namibia accounting for $230.3 million of that, largely uranium oxides and Canadian exports to Namibia include cereals and machinery.

There are significant opportunities for investment in Namibia. Currently, the major focus for Canadian investors is mining, particularly diamonds and uranium. Cumulatively, Canada's foreign direct investment in Namibia reached $20 million at the end of 2010, most of which was in the mining sector.

The impetus for the convention with Namibia, signed on March 25, 2010, the official term for tax treaty, was to contribute to the elimination of tax barriers to trade and investment between Canada and Namibia and to help solidify the existing economic and financial dealings between the two countries.

It is consistent with the government's commitment, as announced in the 2008 Speech from the Throne, to seek out new investment and trade opportunities for Canadians and to promote greater global prosperity.

The convention generally follows the pattern of other tax treaties already concluded by Canada. Accordingly, it generally follows the format and language of the Model Tax Convention on Income and on Capital of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD.

Most countries, including Canada and Namibia, tax their residents on their worldwide income. Moreover, where a resident of a particular country, known as the “country of residence”, derives income from sources in another country, for example, from a business located there, it is not uncommon for that other country, known as the “country of source”, to subject that income to tax.

The convention recognizes this international taxation dynamic and sets out under what circumstances and to what extent Canada and Namibia may tax the earnings of one another's residents.

The convention also provides that where income, profit or gains may be taxed in both countries, the country of residence, if it taxes, is to allow relief from double taxation against its own tax for the tax imposed by the country of source.

In the case of Canada, effect is given to the relief obligations arising under the convention by application of the general foreign tax credit system provisions of Canada's domestic law or relevant exemption provisions of the law where applicable.

Again, let me recap and expand the highlights of the convention.

The convention sets a maximum withholding tax rate of 5% for dividends paid to a company that holds directly at least 25% of the share capital of, or controls directly or indirectly at least 25% of the voting power in the company that pays the dividend and a maximum rate of 15% in all other cases.

The convention also limits to 10% the maximum withholding rate on interest and royalties, except that no tax may be withheld on interest paid to the government or a pension fund or in respect of debt finance by Export Development Canada or a debt of a government.

It also includes a provision that limits the potential for double taxation arising from the application of Canada's taxpayer migration rule without restricting Canada's ability to tax its departing residents on their pre-departure gains. It also includes the latest standard of the OECD on exchanges of tax information in order to assist Canadian tax authorities in the administration of the Canadian tax law.

Let me talk about Serbia. Relations between Canada and Serbia, formerly with Montenegro, part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and the state union of Serbia and Montenegro, redeveloped quickly following the overthrow of Slobodan Milosevic's regime in October 2000. In 2006, Canada welcomed Serbia's admission into NATO's partnership for peace program and to La Francophonie as an observer.

Canada is encouraged by the democratic and economic transformation of Serbia and its commitment to achieving greater integration and co-operation with the European Union and its institutions. The international community, including Canada, is helping Serbia make a successful transition to a free market democracy, develop strong regional co-operation with its neighbours and maintain its own citizens' security. Canada and Serbia enjoy strong people-to-people relationships and benefit from cultural and academic exchanges. In 2006, Canada and Serbia signed a readmission agreement and later that year an air transport agreement, which allowed for the resumption of direct flights between the two countries in June 2007.

In 2010, the two countries signed a memorandum of understanding on the prosecution of war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide.

Canada-Serbia trade has increased almost tenfold over the past five years. In 2009, bilateral trade in goods totalled just under $60 million. In addition, Canada's investment commitments in the region, including Montenegro, reached more than US$500 million in 2007 and have been increasing steadily. Important Canadian investments have recently been made or committed in the areas of real estate and construction, tourism, agriculture, informatics, and energy and mining, among others. Opportunities for further Canadian investment include road, rail and urban transportation infrastructure upgrading and construction.

As such, the impetus for the convention with Serbia signed on April 27, 2012, which is the official term for the tax treaty, was to contribute to the elimination of tax barriers to trade and investment between Canada and Serbia and to help solidify the economic links between the two countries. It is also consistent with the Canadian government's commitment, as outlined in the 2008 Speech from the Throne, to seek out new investment and trade opportunities for Canadians and to promote global prosperity.

Like Namibia, the convention generally follows the pattern of other tax treaties already concluded by Canada. Accordingly, it generally follows the format and language of the model tax convention on income and on capital of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

Also like Namibia, most countries, including Canada and Serbia, tax their residents on their worldwide income. Moreover, as I described earlier, where a resident of a particular country derives income from sources in another country it is not uncommon for that other country to subject that income to tax. The convention recognizes this international taxation dynamic and sets out under what circumstances and to what extent Canada and Serbia may tax the earnings of one another's residents.

Let me recap the highlights from the convention: it sets the maximum withholding tax rate of 5% on dividends paid to a company that controls directly at least 25% of the voting power of the company that pays the dividends and a maximum withholding tax rate of 15% will apply to dividends paid in all other cases.

The convention also limits to 10% the maximum withholding tax rate on interest and royalties, except that no tax may be withheld on interest paid to the government or the central bank. The convention also limits to 15% the maximum withholding tax rate on payments of pension income.

Clearly, members will notice that the provisions for both Namibia and Serbia were very similar, if not identical, and this is an extremely important point as it demonstrates how routine and standard this legislation and its provisions are and what they represent.

However, I would like now to conclude by talking about Hong Kong and here we will notice some minor variations on what I have laid out for Serbia and Namibia. Let me first talk about Canada's special relationship with Hong Kong. Our bilateral relationship with Hong Kong reflects long-standing and comprehensive political, commercial and people-to-people ties.

I should also note that even though Hong Kong is a special administrative region of the People's Republic of China, it is governed under the “one country, two systems” approach set out in the Basic Law, a document often referred to as the Hong Kong mini-constitution. Under this approach, Hong Kong is guaranteed its own legislature, legal and judicial systems and economic autonomy under a capitalist system and a way of life for at least 50 years.

Overall, the Basic Law provides Hong Kong with a degree of autonomy. Indeed article 151 of the Basic Law provides that Hong Kong may on its own conclude and implement an agreement with foreign states in fields such as economic, trade and financial fields, including tax treaties.

Canada and Hong Kong enjoy good co-operation on a large range of topics including public health, legal matters, and trade and investment. Relations are further bolstered by formal agreement initiatives on issues such as mutual legal assistance in criminal matters, air services, film and television co-operation and Internet learning. Canada and Hong Kong also enjoy productive co-operation in the context of multilateral organizations to which they are both members such as the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation forum, APEC, and the World Trade Organization.

In terms of trade with Canada, Hong Kong is the third largest financial market in Asia and an important source of foreign direct investment to Canada. As of 2011, Hong Kong was the second largest destination in Asia after Japan for Canadian foreign direct investment, larger than both China and India. Hong Kong is Canada's tenth largest export market and is also Canada's third largest export market in the world for beef and fourth largest market for fish and seafood.

In addition to natural resources and agricultural products, Canadian exports to Hong Kong include everything from telecommunications devices to train signalling systems, to educational and financial services. I should also note that the Canadian Chamber of Commerce in Hong Kong is one of the largest Canadian chambers outside Canada with over 1,200 members. There are over 180 Canadian companies in Hong Kong, 15 of which have established their regional headquarters in the city with a further 33 maintaining regional offices and 44 more with local offices.

Like Serbia and Namibia, the impetus for the agreement with Hong Kong signed on November 11, 2012, was to contribute to the elimination of tax barriers to trade and investment between Canada and Hong Kong and to help solidify the economic links between the two jurisdictions.

The new agreement also generally follows the pattern of other tax treaties already concluded by Canada and the OECD model, like Serbia and Namibia. The agreement also provides that where income, profits or gains may be taxed in both countries, the country of residence is to allow double tax relief against its own tax for the tax imposed by the country of source like Serbia and Namibia. The one variation is on resident taxation.

Unlike most jurisdictions, which tax their residents on their worldwide income, Hong Kong administers a territorial tax system under which residents and non-residents are taxed only on income arising in, or derived from, Hong Kong. Consequently, the residence articles of the treaty as regards Hong Kong reflects this state of affairs.

Capital gains are generally not taxable in Hong Kong, unless they are derived from a transaction in the nature of trade, in which case they are taxed as ordinary income at the regular applicable corporate or personal income tax rate. Moreover, there is no withholding tax imposed in Hong Kong on interest payments or dividend distributions made to non-residents.

Royalty payments made to non-residents are deemed to be taxable in Hong Kong if such payments are for the use of, or a right to use intangibles in Hong Kong or outside Hong Kong and where such royalty payments are deductible for income tax purposes in Hong Kong. In such cases, a withholding tax of 17.5% is imposed on 30% to 100% of the gross amount of the royalty payment.

For these reasons that I have highlighted today related to the three countries I have mentioned and many others, Bill S-17 will increase our ability to compete and to harness the opportunities of a vibrant, modern global economy. I urge the House to support this bill.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:45 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for trying to make this topic interesting. As he spoke, I appreciate that he gave a lot of detail about why these particular nations have been chosen for Canada to enter into agreements with. I think the obvious question that arises is why these particular nations? Is it Canadian corporations interested in shale gas activity in Poland and the mining in Namibia? Why have these particular nations been singled out and are similar agreements being sought with nations where we also send aid workers to ensure that their revenues are similarly protected?

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:45 p.m.

Conservative

Chungsen Leung Conservative Willowdale, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite is quite right in what she mentioned. When we negotiate tax treaties for our country, it is like two business partners. We have to arrive at an understanding of how we are prepared to do it. There may be a lot of conditions that lead up to the reason why we would negotiate a tax treaty. One of them, in the case of Namibia, had to do with Canadian companies mining there for diamonds and uranium oxide. In another case, there are Canadian aid workers in those areas to help better the country after natural disasters or human conflicts.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:45 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I have had the opportunity to express this thought to other members of the Conservative Party. Yes, the legislation is good and Liberals want all members to vote in favour of it. At the end of the day, we can set up a legislative framework, but we have to have the financial resources to ensure that we can get the tax evaders. It is important to recognize that a vast majority of Canadian businesses or individuals around the world are quite straightforward and honest, and pay their taxes. A relatively small percentage go out of their way to participate in tax evasion.

The issue is this. Does the government recognize that cutting financial resources to the CRA is not going to result in more prosecutions of individuals or companies that participate in tax evasion?

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:45 p.m.

Conservative

Chungsen Leung Conservative Willowdale, ON

Mr. Speaker, I disagree with the premise of the member, that in order to solve this problem, we simply need to dedicate more resources. As business partners, it is far more intelligent to share information with the countries we are dealing with by dedicating resources to electronic detection and getting the co-operation of the other countries to assist us with tax information. It is a far more efficient way of identifying where the sources of income are and taxing them accordingly.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:45 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Mr. Speaker, I liked what the parliamentary secretary described as a business partnership between countries. Obviously, Canada likes to have a lot of trade with various countries. There are 90 other countries in the world with which we have tax treaties and these are six more. In fact, these are four new ones and amendments to our tax treaties with Luxembourg and Switzerland.

My question for the hon. member is to ask him to describe the importance of having tax treaties like this when it comes to investment, trade, business development, new business opportunities and direct foreign investment. This is one of the foundational elements. There are other things, of course, such as mobility agreements, bilateral agreements on social security, and so forth. I would ask him to tell us why this is an important cornerstone to establishing a better relationship between Canada and other countries.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:50 p.m.

Conservative

Chungsen Leung Conservative Willowdale, ON

Mr. Speaker, prior to entering politics, I spent 40 years doing business with 35 or 36 countries around the world. Before entering a country to do business, it is absolutely vital to have a clear understanding of the road map of the local business culture, the legislative framework, import-export regulations, permits and taxation. It is also important that in our international global economy, we need to understand both sides of the trading countries. Therefore, it is absolutely important that these regulations are set forth as we negotiate our business relations with foreign corporations.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:50 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, any tax agreement is only as good as the enforcement provisions that are contained within it, as members know. Now we have a situation in which it appears that the Minister of National Revenue actually refused data on hundreds of Canadians who were hiding money overseas. The information was offered to the current government on a silver platter. The information was being provided to the government, and the government, unlike other, deeper-thinking governments, refused to take that information.

Given how lamentably bad the Conservative government's record is on the level of tax debt climbing by 57%, the doubling of the amount, the tens of billions of dollars invested in tax havens overseas with the government basically rubber-stamping that, and then the Minister of National Revenue refusing to take information on the hundreds of Canadians hiding money overseas, how does the member think the current government has any credibility whatsoever when it comes to the issue of tax fairness?

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:50 p.m.

Conservative

Chungsen Leung Conservative Willowdale, ON

Mr. Speaker, again I totally disagree with the member's line of thinking.

First, there is no crime in having money overseas. Any international businessperson will say that we need to have international accounts, and that is precisely why we are negotiating with countries such as Switzerland and Luxembourg, which have in the past been tax havens in not disclosing the holders of their bank accounts. This information is now exchanged among the various taxing authorities around the world, and there is a way of tracking the source of that income.

Also, as I remember from my public accounting days, the Canadian tax system is probably one of the fairest systems in the way that it is administered, and we certainly have the co-operation of the five countries that concur with us on this aspect.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

In accordance with an order made earlier related to this piece of legislation, there are 16 minutes remaining.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Surrey North.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:50 p.m.

NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

Mr. Speaker, I will try to sum up my thoughts for my constituency in the 16 minutes I have. It is an honour to speak to Bill S-17 on behalf of my constituents of Surrey North.

Basically the bill would bring into being bilateral income tax treaties with a number of countries in accordance with the OECD tax treaty standards. Basically we support harmonization and greater clarity of taxation laws, as well as bringing tax treaties into line with OECD standards, and therefore we will support the bill at this stage.

The Conservatives would have us believe that somehow the bill would address the elephant hiding here. The elephant is tax evasion, and the bill does not address tax evasion at all.

Before I get to the big elephant in the House, the one the Conservatives do not want to talk about, let me tell a story. My daughter was here about a month ago during her recess, and she had a chance to spend about three days with me.

She asked me what time allocation was. A 16-year-old was asking me what time allocation was, and I tried to explain it to her by telling her that time allocation was basically shutting down debate. It is a word I learned when I got here from my friends the Conservatives. They have now used it about 43 or 44 times.

I explained to my daughter that it was used when the Conservatives wanted to shut down debate and did not want to debate the bill before them. They do not want MPs who represent their constituents to give their views, so they basically shut down debate.

My daughter said, “That is not democracy. You should be able to represent our constituents and speak freely in this House”.

A 16-year-old understands that it is important to have the views of constituents and what they want in their constituency represented by their members of Parliament. A 16-year-old understands it.

We have seen time allocation after time allocation used by Conservatives in shutting down debate. That is not right whether we support the bill or not, and of course we support the bill. We want to highlight how we can improve the bill, and we would encourage the Conservatives to take some of those ideas to make the bills better and improve them.

One of the elephants that has not been addressed in the bill is tax evasion. We have heard reports. I have listened to very informative debate by my NDP colleagues highlighting what needs to be done and what is being done around the world, yet we have the Conservatives dragging their feet on addressing the big elephant in the room, which is tax evasion.

I had a chance to cruise through a number of headlines while listening to speaker after speaker this evening. I looked up tax evasion in Google News, and the first seven articles were about France taking on tax evaders, Italy taking on tax evaders. A headline from India said that the Indian government is going after tax evaders. I saw a headline from the United States to the effect that they are going after virtual tax evaders. These are headlines within the last six or seven hours.

Then I saw a Canadian headline about tax evasion. The headline from the Ottawa Citizen was basically that the Conservatives are dragging their feet in tackling tax evasion.

Our partners around the world, the G7 countries, our closest allies—Japan, the United States, Italy, Germany and the United Kingdom—have taken a leadership role in tackling tax evaders and getting additional revenue for the government.

My friend from Burnaby—New Westminster asked a very valid question. The Canadian government was offered information on hundreds of tax evaders, as my friend from Burnaby—New Westminster said. The Conservative government was being handed this information on a platter so that it could look at these tax invaders and go after them. What did the Conservative government do? Nothing. It did nothing.

There is another report, and we can look at some of the facts and figures. I know my Conservative friends do not believe in facts and figures, but $170 billion is being invested by Canadians in 12 of the largest tax haven countries, so there is a lot of money being invested in tax havens offshore by Canadians. It used to be a figure in the single digits back in the 1980s and 1990s, but under the Conservative government it has gone up to double digits. In fact, it is about 24%.

There is $170 billion going offshore, and the tax that we could collect from this, estimated by Canadians for Tax Fairness, is calculated at about $7.8 billion. That is what the Canadian government is losing because it is not going after the tax billionaires.

In this House, I have heard member after member talk about tax fairness and paying our fair share. I can assure members that hard-working people, people such as plumbers, electricians, taxi drivers, truck drivers and the professionals in my community, pay their fair share of taxes.

It is time for the millionaires to pay their fair share. The average person does not have the ability, or enough money, to put money offshore. Average working Canadians pay their fair share of taxes, but those with resources, those with tens of millions of dollars, are able to put this money offshore. That is $7.8 billion that we could have collected this year alone.

Why are my Conservative colleagues not going after this revenue? In fact, the money we could collect from offshore, the $7.8 billion, is being put on the backs of Canadians. We could use that money to reduce the largest deficit ever, a deficit that has occurred under the current government.

Let us talk about that. It is under the current government that we have had the largest deficit. It is not only a large deficit; we have also increased our debt by $200 billion under the Conservative government.

A few weeks ago I had a chance to stand up and ask a question. It was a very simple question. I asked who was going to pay for that $200 billion, the debt that Conservatives have accumulated over the last number of years. I did not get an answer. I would still like to get an answer on who is going to pay for that.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:55 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Where is the $3 billion?

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

10:55 p.m.

NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

That is still missing. We do not even know about the $3.1 billion. We have asked, and we will keep asking. Hopefully in a few weeks, we will hear. The Conservatives have the whole summer to figure out where that $3.1 billion is. We are going to give them the summer to figure out if they can find that $3.1 billion.

The facts are that we could use this tax money to reduce our deficit, which is the largest under the Conservative government. However, the Conservatives have put no proposals forward. They are laggards in the G7 in coming up with progressive policies to go after these cheats so that we can recoup the money that has been lost by Canadians.

At the end of the day, it is Canadians who will end up paying for the mismanagement by the government.

I know that the Conservatives do not answer, but I asked them who was going to pay for the debt they have accumulated over the last six or seven years. In fact, they have not had a surplus budget. They call themselves fiscal conservatives. They have not had even one surplus budget. Who is going to pay for this? It will be my children, their children, their grandchildren and my grandchildren. It is unfair to leave the largest debt to our children.

We have ways we can collect this. Again, Conservatives have a chance to recoup some of the money being siphoned off to offshore accounts.

We talked about fiscal conservatives and their ability to manage budgets. They have not had a surplus.

Let me talk about their trade deficit. When the Conservatives came in, they had a $26-billion trade surplus. That means that we sold $26 billion more than we bought from other countries. That is good for Canada. It creates jobs. If we sell more of our products overseas, we create local jobs here. That is good. However, under the Conservative government, we have had a trade deficit of over $50 billion. That means that we are buying $50 billion more in goods coming into Canada than we are selling to other countries.

Not only that, under the Conservative government, our merchandise trade deficit is the largest ever. I mention that because that is how we create secondary well-paying jobs. However, under this government, we have had failure.

That is the Conservatives' record, whether it is on deficits or on trade. These are the two things they often talk about, but they do not tell us about the other side. They tell us that they have signed this or that trade deal, but the trade deficit just keeps growing. We asked on the trade committee to look at why we have a large trade deficit. They did not want to study that.

Not only that, getting back to Bill S-17, my hon. colleagues, the NDP finance committee members, offered a number of suggestions as to how we could go after these tax evaders. One of the suggestions we offered was the following:

That the federal government study and measure, to the greatest accuracy possible, Canadian tax losses to international tax havens and tax evasion, in order to the determine the Canadian federal “tax gap”.

They do not even want to go there. They do not even want to look at the deficit.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

11 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON

We did that.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

11 p.m.

NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

I know that the member across the aisle is interrupting, but these are the facts.

I will read another one for him. Maybe he will comment on this one. Here was another suggestion:

That the Auditor General evaluate, on a regular basis, the success of the Canada Revenue Agency in prosecuting and settling cases of tax evasion.

Here is a practical way to find out how well our system is working, yet the Conservatives do not want to do that. If we do not know how much we could collect and how much we are losing in revenue through tax evasion and tax havens, how are we going to know how much is out there?

I know, going back to the same premise I talked about before, that if the Conservatives do not like the facts, they will change them or make them up. We have seen that over and over again. That seems to be a regular occurrence with the government.

There are many other suggestions we made, which make practical sense, to bring in more revenue and catch those cheaters and evaders so that we can reduce our deficit and offer the programs Canadians need. All we have seen are cuts from the current government.

It does not make sense to me. If they were going to go after tax cheats, one would think there would be a need for more inspectors and workers to go after those people. The Conservatives have actually cut CRA people in the last number of years.

Again, we will support this bill, but the elephant in the room is still not being addressed by the current government, and that is tax evasion.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

11:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

It being 11:10 p.m., pursuant to order made earlier today, it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the second reading stage of the bill now before the House.

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

11:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yes.

Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 2013Government Orders

11:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Accordingly, the bill stands referred to the Standing Committee on Finance.

(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to a committee)

The House resumed from June 4 consideration of the motion that Bill S-2, An Act respecting family homes situated on First Nation reserves and matrimonial interests or rights in or to structures and lands situated on those reserves, be read the third time and passed, and of the amendment.