House of Commons Hansard #269 of the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was cigarettes.

Topics

Bill S-16--Time Allocation MotionTackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, I agree with the hon. member that this is a growing problem. In terms of dealing with this piece of legislation, this is a great opportunity to move this bill into the committee where members can hear from individuals who are on the ground, people with knowledge in this area. That would work very well.

The member makes a good point in terms of what we have to be doing, in moving forward. As I indicated to one of his colleagues, the RCMP will have a special unit composed of 50 representatives of the RCMP completely devoted to cracking down on contraband tobacco.

I agree, and he has made the point directly or indirectly, that this is becoming an increasing challenge for law enforcement. This is why we have expanded the provisions to the Criminal Code, and why my colleague, the Minister of Public Safety has come forward with that initiative within the RCMP. It is a comprehensive approach. Again when we go back to our constituents and we hear what is happening on the ground, it is exactly what this country needs at this time.

Bill S-16--Time Allocation MotionTackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would first like to say that I find the whole situation pretty sad. It is sad that the government has moved so many time allocation motions—in fact, the most in the whole history of Parliament. I would remind the House that we are not in a time of war, at least, not as far as I know. I do not understand what is so pressing.

It is also particularly unfortunate that, this time, this is coming from the Minister of Justice, someone who is supposed to be one of this country's leading authorities on justice. You could say that this individual is supposed to lead by example. When we talk about justice, that automatically means talking about democracy and upholding people's rights. It is really sad that the government is behaving like this. When the government does such things, it leaves the entire country with a certain impression. It is basically like saying that there is no point in taking the time to negotiate and let people express their opinions, because the government will pass whatever it wants using a gag order. This is truly unfortunate.

I would like to hear what the minister thinks about this. Is he comfortable with the impression this gives the entire country, all Canadians? Is this the message he wants to send to Canadians—that the government does not listen to people, that it passes bills using gag orders and steamrolls everyone in order to get its way, instead of coming up with strong arguments? Does it have to ram everything down our throats?

Bill S-16--Time Allocation MotionTackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, that is one of the great things about the democratic process in this country and one of the things in which I take a great deal of satisfaction.

I can tell members that in the 2004, 2006, 2008 and 2011 elections, those four elections, we were very clear with the Canadian public. We said that we would move forward with cracking down on crime, ensuring that individuals found guilty of crime are accountable for what they have done; that we would make it a priority to stand up for victims; and that we would look at efficiencies within the criminal justice system to make it work better.

One of the things of which I am particularly proud, and the record will bear me out on this, is that in each of those four elections more and more Canadians responded to what we were saying. Our justice agenda is only part of what we are doing, but an important part, nonetheless.

The hon. member, on five occasions, said how sad she is. She can take some comfort, and I hope it will make her happier, when she looks at the provisions of the bill because we are cracking down on a big problem in this country, which is contraband tobacco.

I would suggest this is a way of reinvigorating her. I hope she feels much better about this when she has a look at the provisions of this, because this is on the right track.

Bill S-16--Time Allocation MotionTackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I was pleased to hear the Minister of Justice speaking on this.

I would like to address the suggestion that this issue has not been debated. Having been on the public safety committee for the last seven years and having been on the justice committee, I know these committees have studied this subject of contraband tobacco and have heard from countless witnesses. If members in this House stand to say we have not studied it enough, they are exactly, 100% wrong.

We know that contraband cigarettes are now being sold to our children, in schoolyards, at about 5¢ apiece. We know that the Ontario provincial police and other police agencies have made huge seizures of contraband cigarettes, actually tractor-trailer loads. We have, in this country, stepped up our enforcement. However, we need additional tools for the law enforcement agencies to be able to do their jobs. They have been asking us for this.

I wonder if the minister would talk about those issues.

Bill S-16--Time Allocation MotionTackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for all his interest in all the issues related to better protecting Canadians and better protecting children in this country. He is quite correct, in terms of the challenges in this area. One of the things that particularly pleases me is that not only would we keep this in the Excise Tax Act, which is under federal prosecution and related to the RCMP, for the most part, but we would have this alternative within the Criminal Code that would get all police forces across this country and provincially appointed crown attorneys involved. This would be one more option to crack down on this.

Again, as I pointed out, this would send the right message to organized crime, that the government takes this issue seriously, as this is exactly what we would be doing when we move forward. I urge all members to get this into committee, as is the right thing to do.

Bill S-16--Time Allocation MotionTackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Dan Harris NDP Scarborough Southwest, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank everyone for their impassioned speeches today. I have a couple of questions for the minister. This is where we come up with new, unforeseen circumstances and situations when we are ramming through all these bills.

This bill seeks to tackle contraband tobacco and also to stop contraband coming across the border. Yesterday, through time allocation, we rammed through Bill C-56 that would actually add ex officio powers to CBSA officers to stop counterfeit and trademark-infringed goods from coming across the border.

We have multiple bills going through at the same time that would add more responsibilities and put more strain on our border officers. At the same time, the government last year brought in over $143 million in cuts to CBSA. CBSA's own numbers say that it is going to lose 550 full-time staff between now and 2015.

I would like to ask the minister how he squares that circle. We are thrusting all these responsibilities upon CBSA while, at the same time, cutting its budgets. How is the CBSA supposed to continue to do the job of keeping Canadians safe?

Bill S-16--Time Allocation MotionTackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, this government has a record of putting more resources into this area, and it is not just confined to that. As I indicated to the House, there would be a special unit within the RCMP. There would be 50 RCMP officers devoted to that, in addition to all other federal resources in this area.

We are getting the job done on every level. We are changing the laws. We are making sure that the resources and the support are there. We get support from local law enforcement agencies as well. The OPP and Sûreté du Québec are involved with this. That is why this piece of legislation will be so welcomed.

Bill S-16--Time Allocation MotionTackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

That will bring the 30-minute question period to a close. I note that members for Laurentides—Labelle, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord and Fort McMurray—Athabasca did not get a chance to participate, but we will take pains to ensure that they get a chance in questions and comments when the bill comes before the House.

It is my duty to interrupt the proceedings at this time and put forthwith the question on the motion now before the House.

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Bill S-16--Time Allocation MotionTackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Bill S-16--Time Allocation MotionTackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Bill S-16--Time Allocation MotionTackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Bill S-16--Time Allocation MotionTackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

All those opposed will please say nay.

Bill S-16--Time Allocation MotionTackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Bill S-16--Time Allocation MotionTackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And five or more members having risen:

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Vote #755

Tackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

Noon

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

I declare the motion carried.

Tackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

Noon

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I stand to be corrected, but I believe a vote was incorrectly attributed to the member for Crowfoot, who is not voting at this time.

Tackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

Noon

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

I appreciate the hon. member's comments, and we have taken that into account.

The House resumed from June 11 consideration of the motion that Bill S-16, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (trafficking in contraband tobacco), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Tackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

Noon

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

Order. I wish to inform the House that, because of the proceedings on the time allocation motion, government orders will be extended by 30 minutes.

Resuming debate. The hon. member for Lac-Saint-Louis.

Tackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

Noon

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Mr. Speaker, we are looking at the issue of tobacco use, which is a scourge on our society. This issue looms over our society on many levels, and has been doing so for decades. Over the years, significant financial resources have been put into the fight against smoking.

Tobacco use is a fairly complicated issue, as is contraband tobacco. This is clearly a health issue. We know that smoking is bad for people's health. Over the years, we have come to realize that not only do smokers suffer serious consequences, but those around them can also suffer. Years of research led to those conclusions.

Just as an aside, it is very telling to look at how tobacco and its health effects were dealt with during studies in the 1960s and 1970s. A similar approach is being used now with respect to other products that can be harmful to humans. For example, when a manufacturer of a potentially harmful product states that there is no proof that the product is harmful, reference is often made to tobacco and the fact that in the 1960s and 1970s, tobacco manufacturers said that studies were inconclusive. To an extent, that experience shaped how we look at things.

This issue has health consequences. Tobacco, especially contraband tobacco, also has a significant economic impact, especially on aboriginal reserves. We know that criminals are involved in trafficking contraband tobacco, but we also see that on reserves, more and more ordinary people are working in tobacco plants. It does not matter to them if the plant is operating within the law or is hidden in the woods. These people are not criminals. They just want to earn a living. They may not give much thought to all the legal aspects surrounding the tobacco operation they are working for.

Aboriginal reserves are very involved in manufacturing tobacco products, whether legally or otherwise. The problem is that these reserves are becoming more and more dependent on selling tobacco and manufacturing tobacco products, which makes them somewhat vulnerable. It is obvious to most people here the House that in the long run, tobacco consumption will decline. If an aboriginal reserve becomes dependent on the tobacco industry, what will people there do when the industry collapses, if it comes to that?

There are health-related questions and an economic aspect to consider. There is also a financial aspect for the government because the tobacco industry, in general, generates significant tax revenues for the government.

When a black market expands, it eats into government revenues. According to some experts, the black market accounts for almost one-third of the Canadian tobacco market.

For example, there are reportedly 300 smoke shacks in Canada. At these shacks, which we sometimes see on the roadside in aboriginal reserves, cigarettes are sold to aboriginal peoples, who have the right to purchase them without paying taxes, and also to other people passing through the reserve to buy these products tax-free. Furthermore, there are approximately 50 illegal cigarette factories, and some of them are quite large.

There is also organized crime. Trafficking in contraband tobacco is an activity that attracts organized crime, which is involved in trafficking in many other goods, including drugs and illegal arms. It is a scourge on several accounts.

Another important aspect with regard to our federation, one of the most advanced in the world in terms of the fight against trafficking in contraband tobacco, is that this involves at least two levels of government. The federal government must work with the provinces, and especially with provincial police forces, to try to address this problem.

This brings us to Bill S-16. Let us talk a bit about what Bill S-16 would do.

First, it would bring the issue of contraband tobacco into the Criminal Code. A lot of people listening at home are probably surprised that selling contraband tobacco is not a Criminal Code offence at this time. People know that they should not be doing this and that there are legal consequences, but those consequences currently are not under the Criminal Code. They are under the Excise Act. There are fines under the Excise Act for engaging in the illegal sale of contraband tobacco.

Bill S-16 would add offences under the Criminal Code. It would add as offences selling, offering for sale, transporting, delivering, distributing or possessing for the purpose of sale a tobacco product or raw-leaf tobacco that is not packaged, unless it is stamped. These are the new offences that would be created under the Criminal Code.

The point is that it would allow the government to make it a more serious offence to engage in the sale of contraband tobacco, but it would also give prosecutors flexibility. A prosecutor would be able to decide whether to prosecute under the Excise Act, which would mean, I would imagine, that the burden of proof may not be as high, or whether to prosecute under the Criminal Code, which carries more severe offences. Therefore, the bill would provide more flexibility for prosecutors.

It would also empower all police forces to combat tobacco smuggling. Currently, only the RCMP can get involved under the Excise Act, but if the offence is under the Criminal Code, provincial and municipal police forces would be able to enforce the act. Of course, the bill would make consequential amendments to the definition of “attorney general” so that both the federal government and the provinces could prosecute offences through their Attorneys General.

The act would introduce minimum sentences for repeat offenders where there is a high volume of contraband tobacco involved. When we talk about a high volume, we mean, under Bill S-16, over 10,000 cigarettes or over 10 kilograms of other tobacco products.

These minimum sentences would apply only where prosecution was on indictment versus summary conviction. What is interesting is that the minimum sentence would only kick in on the second conviction. The sentence would be 90 days on a second conviction, 180 days on a third conviction and two years less a day on subsequent convictions. I imagine that this means that the time served would be not in a federal penitentiary but in a provincial jail. The minimum sentences would apply only when the first offence was under the Criminal Code, not under the Excise Act, for example.

The Liberal Party is generally reticent to support legislation that has minimum sentences, because experts have told us that these simply do not work in terms of making society safer. In this case, we are willing to consider the minimum sentence, because it would not apply on a first Criminal Code offence. However, we want to study the matter a little more closely in committee and bring in the experts to tell us what the impact of these minimum sentences would be.

We have to be careful that these minimum sentences catch the serious criminals and not, for example, a young aboriginal person who is perhaps not 100% aware of what he or she is doing and is acting as a mule, transporting cigarettes, maybe even without his or her knowledge. Obviously, we want to keep aboriginal youth out of jail. We do not want to see them go down that road if it can be avoided. The fact that the minimum sentence does not apply on the first offence is something that allows us to consider supporting the bill throughout the process and certainly allows us to vote for it to send it to committee.

We also want to study the fact that we are basically, in some ways, duplicating offences, because there are fines under the Excise Act. Are we just duplicating for the sake of a public relations effect, or will the bill really be effective? We can only tell once we bring in the experts.

I would also point out that there is an interesting contradiction in the bill, because usually, under the Criminal Code, if someone commits an offence and had committed a prior offence, but the prior offence was committed more than 10 years earlier—in other words, 10 years has elapsed between offences—generally, the court does not consider the first offence in its decision. This is not the case with Bill S-16. First offences, even if committed 10 years prior, would still enter into the consideration of the court's decision. We want to look at that, and we would want to know why the contradiction exists in this case.

The government sometimes prefers easy solutions or symbolic gestures that make the public believe that the government is acting decisively, even though the proposed solutions are sometimes ill-conceived and simplistic whereas the issues require more complex and nuanced responses.

We must do more than just rely on Bill S-16. For example, there are at least three things we must do in addition to introducing, debating and passing this bill.

First, an ongoing advertising campaign that is well funded by the federal government or other levels of government is required. I believe that the Conservative government has already made a commitment in that regard. The advertising campaign is needed to raise awareness because a fair number people stop by smoke shacks on reserves to buy cartons of tax-free cigarettes. As I mentioned at the beginning of my speech, the sale of these cigarettes is connected to organized crime in a number of ways.

If we tell most people that that is the case, they might think twice before buying tax-free cigarettes, even though it may be more expensive for them. I think that most people do not want to contribute to the problem of organized crime. If we explain to them that they are contributing to the rise of organized crime by buying contraband cigarettes, many people will not buy cigarettes at these sales outlets.

Second, we need to invest in enforcing the act. I know that the government announced that it was going to create a special unit within the RCMP to combat trafficking in contraband tobacco. I hope that an appropriate amount of long-term funding will be allocated to this.

There is also the problem of the border crossing between Massena and Cornwall. This border crossing, which was located on Cornwall Island, was moved to Cornwall, on the Canadian side of the St. Lawrence River. Right now, the government is considering moving the border crossing again, this time from Cornwall to Massena, which is on the American side of the river. The government is supposedly negotiating with the United States in this regard. Many observers and stakeholders, including the tobacco industry and the Government of Ontario, have reservations about moving this border crossing.

I am therefore asking the government to think carefully about what it is trying to accomplish by moving this border crossing and to leave it on the Canadian side of the river. The Government of Ontario and Minister Madeleine Meilleur in particular are asking the government not to move the border crossing.

This matter requires the co-operation of the federal and provincial governments. The government will also have to work with the provinces, particularly Ontario. Ontario is currently not monitoring farms that grow tobacco leaf, which opens the door to using raw materials for the production of illegal cigarettes and other tobacco products.

That being said, dear colleagues from the other parties, we are going to support this bill at second reading. I expect that we will be examining the issue in the fall, if Parliament is not prorogued. I hope that we will be able to ask the experts who come to testify in committee some fairly detailed questions.

Tackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Portage—Lisgar Manitoba

Conservative

Candice Bergen ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for his thoughtful perspective on this piece of legislation.

One of the aspects of contraband tobacco is the health issue related to tobacco as a whole. Not only are individuals buying tobacco that has been produced illegally, but many times, other illegal activity surrounds it.

My colleague serves with me and other members on the public safety committee. Even though we are talking right now about the legal issues related to contraband tobacco and organized crime, as a mother, I am concerned about young people who start smoking at an early age. Part of what feeds that is the ability to get cheap cigarettes. I am wondering if my colleague could comment on that.

Tackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Mr. Speaker, what is interesting is that I have been told that the problem is becoming so widespread—and I do not know if the word is blasé—that people can now receive contraband cigarettes by mail order and they will be deposited in their mailbox. This is a problem. It brings contraband cigarettes even closer to being accessible to our young people. Obviously we do not want them to ever start smoking, and certainly not at a young age.

An additional problem with illegal tobacco is that its production is not regulated. There have been impurities and all kinds of things put into contraband tobacco that people would not want to inhale into their system.

It is a serious problem. We have to get a better handle on it. I hope we will see some success in the years ahead.

Tackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe NDP Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his very enlightening speech.

I think the crux of the debate here is not whether we need to tackle contraband tobacco. The bill makes a lot of sense. I think the debate should focus more on what we need to do before we pass such a bill.

I would like to know what my colleague thinks about the role that aboriginal communities should play in designing and passing this kind of bill. This will surely affect many aboriginal communities.

A number of reports, experts and studies have all said that the first nations should have a key role in tackling contraband tobacco in Canada.

Since my colleague is a member of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, and since this bill, if it is passed at second reading, will be sent to this committee for study, I would like to know what he would like to see in terms of consultation and collaboration with the first nations before such a bill is passed?

Since he will have to speak to this bill in committee, what would he be prepared to accept or not accept?

Tackling Contraband Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Mr. Speaker, indeed, we will need to consult a whole range of experts, including those who are most familiar with aboriginal reserves. We will have to hear from band councils, especially those of the reserves involved. We will need to examine all aspects of this matter thoroughly in committee when witnesses come to give their testimony.

As I said in my speech, although this is a federal act, co-operation among the different levels of government is crucial. I mentioned the federal and provincial levels, but perhaps I should have also emphasized how important it is that band councils and aboriginal police forces be involved. Many aboriginal communities have their own police forces.

These people must be consulted at the committee stage of the bill. Furthermore, when it comes time to enforce the bill, it will be important to work with all stakeholders.