House of Commons Hansard #264 of the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was parks.

Topics

Safe Drinking Water for First Nations ActGovernment Orders

8 p.m.

NDP

John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think my friend across the way will acknowledge that first nations right across the country are all in different situations.

I am travelling this Saturday to a first nation in my riding. I have ten first nations in my riding, and I am travelling to one that actually has good water. It has a good water system, it has trained individuals and it has good waste water systems. That particular first nation governs according to provincial regulations and they meet those regulations.

Not all of my first nations have that same kind of capacity. Certainly, north, in the Kenora riding, many of those first nations, particularly the fly-in nations, really have no capacity at all. They certainly have no capacity to deal with events such as flooding and so on. This is not a difficult problem to solve. It just requires political will and, I want to emphasize again, adequate investments.

Safe Drinking Water for First Nations ActGovernment Orders

June 6th, 2013 / 8 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Mr. Speaker, as my colleague knows, there was an expert panel on safe drinking water for first nations. According to its November 2006 report:

...regulation alone would not ensure safe drinking water. The report indicated that regulations governing the provision of on-reserve drinking water must be accompanied by adequate investment in human resources and physical assets. It suggested that it is not “credible to go forward with any regulatory regime without adequate capacity to satisfy the regulatory requirements.”

Again, the bill does not provide any additional resources, and many witnesses at committee expressed frustration with the government's failure to consult first nations regarding the development of this bill.

Safe Drinking Water for First Nations ActGovernment Orders

8:05 p.m.

NDP

John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Speaker, the one thing that has not been talked about, and I agree with the quote the member used, is the question of crucial investments. I think she said crucial investments in human resources and physical infrastructure. That needs to be done.

However, there are some corollary items that need to be dealt with. I am just thinking of one, which is housing. Part of the problem with a lot of first nations in northern Ontario is that they do not have adequate housing or the housing infrastructure to ensure that these water systems work and to make sure that they are there.

We can talk about regulations, saying that people have to be trained and this is what happens with water coming in and out. The fact of the matter is that housing is very inadequate on many first nations. Many of them are without running water. It is not just a question of a water system here and a water system there, it is also a question of making sure the total infrastructure has the funding to make it all work.

Safe Drinking Water for First Nations ActGovernment Orders

8:05 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is indeed an honour to rise today to speak in support of Bill S-8, the safe drinking water for first nations act.

I would like to begin by describing, perhaps for those who have not yet heard, the framework of this and how we arrived at this place tonight in debating this bill. In Canada, water and waste water operations and systems are generally the responsibility of the provincial and territorial governments. Over the years, different jurisdictions have developed comprehensive regulatory regimes for the protection of source water, water quality standards, and the oversight of water treatment plants and water delivery services.

Over the time that Canada has been growing as a nation, we have, in our various communities, learned from our mistakes. For example, most tragically, Walkerton, which is in my own province. Therefore, the provinces and territories have developed a highly regarded set of regulations across the country which serves the majority of Canadians very well. Of course, it guides the infrastructure that is necessary to provide for safe drinking water and water services.

However, because section 91, paragraph 24 of the Constitution Act of 1867 grants to the federal government exclusive jurisdiction over “Indians and lands reserved for Indians”, provincial regulatory water standards do not apply to on-reserve first nations communities. To date, there has been no federal legislative framework governing drinking water and waste water in first nations communities beyond what is set out in a welter of public federal policies, administrative guidelines and funding arrangements.

We have to ask ourselves here tonight, and Canadians across the country have to ask: Why is it that after almost 150 years, since Confederation, first nations are the only Canadians who do not have proper and healthy regulations for drinking water and waste water?

I must say that when I speak to my constituents about first nations issues, I always begin by explaining to them how complex it is, the lengthy history we have of relationships with our first nations, and what a diversity of views there are. Chief among them has been the constant question of first nations sovereignty, to what degree the Government of Canada can deal with first nations on a local, regional or national basis, and who is responsible for what.

Determining roles and responsibilities is a problem. There are three federal departments involved, and I am just going to mention one of them when it comes to drinking water and waste water, and that is Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada. It provides funding, including funds for capital construction, upgrading and a portion of operating and maintenance costs.

How much funding? Well, 80% of first nations' operating and capital costs is paid by Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada to first nations for the provision of water services to their communities. It also oversees the design, construction and maintenance of water facilities. However, first nation communities, through their chiefs and councils, are responsible for the design, construction, operation and maintenance of water systems, and they assume 20% of the costs.

Where has that taken us?

Well, reports have been done over the years, but I think at this point it is fairly notorious that waste water and drinking water conditions on reserves have been in very poor shape.

In fact, there was an inspection done in 2011 of 587 first nations communities across the country, 97% of all first nations communities. It was found that of the assessed water systems, 39% were at high overall risk, 34% were medium and 27% were low overall risk.

At that time, it was estimated that the cost to upgrade existing water and waste water systems to meet federal protocols and guidelines, as well as provincial standards and regulations, would be $1.08 billion. Is it the case that the Government of Canada, after all these years has not been willing to spend the money necessary? No, that is not the case. That is not where the problem lies. In fact, between 2006 and 2014, the life of the present government, the government will have invested approximately $3 billion to support first nations communities in managing their water and waste water infrastructure and related public health activities.

Let me repeat that so that listeners at home do not think they misheard. Three billion dollars in eight years to really do what the report suggested would cost $1.08 billion. In spite of that, we hear continued calls from the opposition for more funding.

I will not pretend to know what the value of a billion dollars is. It reminds me, if memory serves me, of a Liberal minister who a few years ago was taken to task for saying “What's a million?” Today, the refrain from across the aisle is, “What's a billion?” In fact, what is $3 billion?

In light of the fact that we have been at this 150 years, and particularly acutely in the last 10 years, and particularly having spent $3 billion in the last seven or eight years alone, we still have these problems, we have to look elsewhere. We have to start elsewhere to solve this problem.

The government has gone at it with a willing heart. Bill S-8 was introduced in Parliament on February 29, 2012, to provide for the development of federal regulations governing the provision of drinking water, water quality standards and the disposal of waste water in first nations communities. The bill would also establish that federal regulations may incorporate by reference provincial regulations governing drinking water and waste water in first nations communities.

The reality is, water is water and health needs are health needs and all Canadians, all citizens of the country, including first nations, should enjoy the benefit of the same minimum standards. There is no reason why those standards cannot apply in first nations. It is true, first nations would be responsible for implementing them, but only responsible for 20% of the cost. The government is more than prepared to come up with the other 80% and to oversee and supervise the implementation of these standards.

However, this is not the first time. That is what really makes it frustrating. The member who spoke last talked about a lack of political will. Well indeed, that is what we are witnessing here tonight if we do not pass the bill because it has been tried before.

Bill S-11 in the previous Parliament was introduced in the Senate on May 26, 2010. It was referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples for examination in December of 2010. From February to March, the committee held nine meetings on the proposed legislation and heard witnesses and listened to ideas. However, unfortunately, thanks again to the opposition and the bringing down of the last Parliament and the provoking of an election, Bill S-11 died on the order paper when Parliament was dissolved on March 26, 2011.

Bill S-8 does retain several of the features of the former Bill S-11, but there are key differences. It would be beyond the scope of my time to go into those.

I just have to say that the delivery of safe drinking water to on-reserve first nations is critical to the health and safety of the communities' residents. Access to safe, clean, potable water is also closely tied to the economic viability of individual communities.

It is up to this Parliament to just take this step. We would do more. This would not be the end of it. However, let us at least get off the ground with this step forward. I urge the members opposite to support this bill.

Safe Drinking Water for First Nations ActGovernment Orders

8:15 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

It being 8:19 p.m., pursuant to an order made earlier today, it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the third reading stage of the bill now before the House.

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Safe Drinking Water for First Nations ActGovernment Orders

8:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Safe Drinking Water for First Nations ActGovernment Orders

8:15 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Safe Drinking Water for First Nations ActGovernment Orders

8:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Safe Drinking Water for First Nations ActGovernment Orders

8:15 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

All those opposed will please say nay.

Safe Drinking Water for First Nations ActGovernment Orders

8:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Safe Drinking Water for First Nations ActGovernment Orders

8:15 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And five or more members having risen:

Pursuant to an order made on Wednesday, May 22, 2013, the division stands deferred until Monday, June 10, 2013, at the expiry of the time provided for oral questions.

Expansion and Conservation of Canada’s National Parks ActGovernment Orders

8:15 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

The hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment has 18 minutes left for debate on this issue.

Expansion and Conservation of Canada’s National Parks ActGovernment Orders

8:20 p.m.

Calgary Centre-North Alberta

Conservative

Michelle Rempel ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague, the hon. Chief Government Whip for his support. It is such a pleasure to be here tonight.

I was actually quite impressed with some of the testimony that came out the last time we were speaking to this bill, on Friday. I have geared my speech to address some of the issues that came up. I looked a bit through the Senate committee testimony that came up as well as some of our technical briefing documents, and I hope to address some of my colleagues' concerns that were raised on Friday.

The critical points that were raised on Friday related to some of the issues around seismic activities on the island as well as aboriginal consultations and inclusion within the bill. Questions were raised around Parks Canada consulting the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia. I can assure this House that we are taking important measures with respect to the Mi'kmaq, that we have consulted and will continue to consult them and that Parks Canada is continuing to work with them.

In designating Sable Island as a national park reserve, the Government of Canada would be protecting the asserted aboriginal rights entitled to this area. A national park reserve designation, which is clearly defined under the Canada National Parks Act, is used where there are outstanding claims by aboriginal peoples regarding aboriginal rights and titles and these claims have been accepted by Canada for negotiation.

In her remarks, the member for Edmonton—Strathcona expressed her concern that, while the preamble refers to the Mi'kmaq's asserted rights and title, the bill itself does not. I just want to assure the House that this is standard when it comes to designating national park reserves under the Canada National Parks Act, in that specific reference is not made to the aboriginal people claiming rights and title to a specific national park reserve. Rather, it is the designation as a reserve that protects their asserted rights. When it comes to concerns over the integrity of the national parks system, the Canada National Parks Act is also clear that a national park reserve is protected just as much as a national park, all the while respecting the assertions of aboriginal or treaty rights. It is not a lesser category of national park. Parks such as Nahanni in the north, Mingan Archipelago in Quebec and the Gulf Islands in British Columbia are all currently designated as national park reserves while we work with the aboriginal people who use these areas to finalize an agreement through which they would co-operatively manage these areas in collaboration with Parks Canada.

To be clear, we will not move to designate Sable Island as a national park of Canada until we have concluded our consultations and negotiations with the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia.

In fact, to illustrate this point, when our government first took office in 2006, Labrador's Torngat Mountains was then designated as a national park reserve. That year, the hon. member for Edmonton—Spruce Grove signed a park impacts and benefit statement with the president of Makivik Corporation representing the Nunavik Inuit of northern Quebec who had a claim to the area in Labrador covered by the park reserve. Only with the signing of that agreement did the government move to formally transition the reserve to what is now the Torngat Mountains National Park of Canada.

With respect to consultations, in May 2010, Parks Canada, as required under the consultation protocol established under the made-in-Nova Scotia process, wrote to the Assembly of Nova Scotia Chiefs, the Nova Scotia Office of Aboriginal Affairs and the Native Council of Nova Scotia requesting consultation on plans to designate Sable Island as a national park.

In November 2010, the Mi'kmaq people wrote to Parks Canada confirming that they were in agreement that Sable Island be designated as a national park by bringing it under the Canada National Parks Act by an act of Parliament. They also stated that they looked forward to working together with Parks Canada in the development of a management plan for Sable Island and other opportunities for the Mi'kmaq to be meaningfully and actively engaged in the vision and management direction for Sable Island as a national park.

Consultation with the Mi'kmaq during the designation process would continue until the final step in the establishment process, namely designation of Sable Island as a national park. Once a final accord had been negotiated by Canada, Nova Scotia and the Mi'kmaq through the made-in-Nova Scotia process, Parks Canada would undertake the necessary steps as defined under the final accord to transition Sable Island from a national park reserve to a national park.

Parks Canada enjoys a productive relationship with the Mi'kmaq. Parks Canada and the Mi'kmaq are close to concluding a contribution agreement, the purpose of which is to enable the Mi'kmaq to conduct research and consult with member communities to develop a thorough understanding of the cultural and historical connection of the Mi'kmaq people to Sable Island.

The results of this project would inform the future governance and advisory approach for a Sable Island national park reserve and would build practical working relationships with the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia. This work would provide an important foundation for the participation of the Mi'kmaq in the planning and management of the national park reserve.

As we have heard, Sable Island is located in one of the largest offshore hydrocarbon basins in North America. I know that during the debate last Friday, concern was expressed about the future of Sable Island and the petroleum activities that may be permitted within this region. I believe that the Government of Canada and Nova Scotia have negotiated an approach to Sable Island that balances conservation and the fact that this is a large hydrocarbon development basin.

All petroleum-related activities in Nova Scotia's offshore, including on and around Sable Island, are administered under the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act. As the preamble to this bill makes clear, section 4 of the accord act states that the act takes precedent over all legislation that applies to the offshore area, including Sable Island.

Therefore, it is into this legislative framework, put in place by previous parliaments, that we must fit this new national park reserve. To that end, through Bill S-15, we would amend the accord act to, for the first time, legally prohibit drilling from the surface of Sable Island. This is a point that should not be lost on this House because this would be of huge benefit to protecting this very unique piece of ecosystem and land that is so dear to all Canadians for the future. It is one of the core purposes of putting this bill forward to begin with. We would also put in place a buffer zone from the low-water boundary of the national park reserve out to one nautical mile where the drilling ban would also apply.

Many of my colleagues here have raised concern about the definition of “low-impact petroleum-related activities”. I think this is a fair discussion to have, because we want to make sure we get this right. Therefore, I will give a bit of background on my understanding of what this means, based on Senate committee testimony as well as discussions that the Nova Scotia government had, I believe, in the development of its bill related to this issue, because I think this should be considered, should this bill be supported by my colleagues and brought to committee stage.

Bill S-15 lists several low-impact petroleum-related activities that might be permitted on the island, including seismic. While some equate the word seismic with blasting and explosion, this is not the case in this situation. Low-impact seismic, as described by Mr. Stuart Pinks, chief executive officer of the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board, before the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources, stated:

It is...emitting a sound source that, if it was done on the island, would travel down through the sand...through the rock formations, and some of the sound or energy waves are actually reflected back up. There are listening devices that will pick that up.

This activity was conducted on the island once before in the last several decades. In 1991, Mobil Oil Canada conducted seismic work on and around Sable Island. The company agreed to follow a strict code of practice that was developed in collaboration with Ms. Zoe Lucas, a long-time resident expert on Sable Island, and with the Green Horse Society, which is the leading environmental non-governmental organization for Sable Island.

In following this code of practice, industry made significant changes to its program design and implementation, including delaying the start of the program to avoid the peak periods for nesting birds, pupping harbour seals and foaling horses and changing the layout of seismic lines to avoid biologically rich areas.

Under the 1999 program, Mobil Oil Canada used two vibro-seismic vehicles on the island as sound sources on the north and south sides of the western third of Sable Island. They were restricted to the unvegetated outer beach areas. These were the sound sources. Sixty-two receiver lines were laid across the island for the purpose of receiving the sounds. In placing these receiver lines, no vehicle traffic was permitted on any vegetated terrain and all traffic on vegetation was on foot and restricted to the receiver lines. All the gear used during the program, including cables, geophones, batteries and so forth were carried into and out of the vegetated areas by personnel travelling only on foot.

Ms. Lucas concluded in a 2000 report that, “In general during the 1999 seismic program on Sable Island there was a very high compliance with the Code of Practice”. She also observed that “the [seismic] program had limited and short-term impact on Sable Island”. Furthermore, she concluded that compliance with the code of practice by the survey company “indicated that any group operating on the island could be expected to comply with similar guidelines”.

I would also point out that under the terms of the 2011 National Parks establishment agreement that was signed that year, Canada and Nova Scotia agreed that low impact exploratory work could continue to be authorized. When asked about the possibility of amending Bill S-15 to prohibit such activities by the Senate committee examining the bill, Mr. Leonard Preyra, minister of communities, culture and heritage with the Government of Nova Scotia, confirmed that having the potential to permit such activities, “is an important building block for the agreement itself. In a way, it's a deal breaker”.

During our debate in second reading, concern was expressed that Bill S-15 could set a precedent for other national parks with respect to continuing petroleum-related activity. This is clearly not the case with Bill S-15, as it does not amend the Canada National Parks Act to permit low impact petroleum activities in existing or future national parks. Rather we are amending the Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act to restrict the board's current powers to authorize seismic activities on Sable Island to low impact activities.

For that reason, I would suggest that our government is not compromising the integrity of Canada's national park system, as has been suggested on several occasions by the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands.

In creating new national parks, governments are often challenged to make tough decisions when it comes to allowing certain activities, be it mining roads in Nahanni, traditional land use activities, including hunting in Wapusk, or access to timber resources for local use in Gros Morne. In each case, we balance the need to maintain the integrity of the national park system, while trying to seize the opportunity to enhance the conservation of some of our special places, such as Sable Island.

The fact is that we have succeeded in negotiating a stronger conservation regime for Sable Island than currently exists and that is the goal here. It is to protect this area, it is to bring a greater degree of conservation and it is to understand that this indeed is one of the most special places we have in the country and we should be protecting it. That is the intent of the bill, full stop.

I would argue that our government is strengthening the integrity of our national park system and is working to significantly expand our national marine conservation area. It is because of this pragmatic approach in dealing with the various challenges inherent in creating new national parks that we are making tremendous progress.

For example, in 2006, our government established the 5,565 square kilometre Saoyú-?ehdacho National Historic Site in partnership with the Déline Land Corporation and the Déline Renewable Resources Council. This is the first northern cultural landscape commemorated by the Government of Canada, the first northern national historic site co-operatively managed by Parks Canada and an aboriginal group and the first protected area established under the Northwest Territories protected areas strategy.

In 2007, the Prime Minister joined with the Government of Ontario in announcing the creation of Lake Superior National Marine Conservation Area. At more than 10,000 square kilometres, including the lake bed, islands and north shore lands, this is the largest freshwatrer marine protected area in the world.

In 2009, the House passed legislation resulting in the dramatic sixfold expansion of Nahanni National Park Reserve. For their efforts in achieving this decades-old dream, the minister of the environment, the Grand Chief of the Dehcho First Nation and the president of the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society were awarded the prestigious Gold Medal by the Royal Canadian Geographical Society.

Last August, the Prime Minister joined with the leaders of the Sahtu Dene and Metis to announce the creation of Nááts'ihch'oh National Park Reserve of Canada for the purpose of protecting the headwaters of the South Nahanni River. This conservation action will bring to a conclusion the work of so many to protect the Greater Nahanni Ecosystem.

In the 2011 Speech from the Throne, our government pledged to the people of Canada to create significant new protected areas. For example, Parks Canada is working to conclude negotiations to create a new national park on Bathurst Island in Nunavut and a new national park reserve in the Mealy Mountains of Labrador. Each of these new parks will bring ecological, social and economic benefits to aboriginal people and northern communities. Each new park will also shed light on a new and fascinating destination for visitors, providing an opportunity to diversify the local economy and to open the door to new and fascinating stories about these places.

We will continue our work to conclude the consultations and feasibility assessments for proposed national marine conservation areas in the ecologically rich waters of the southern Strait of Georgia in British Columbia and Lancaster Sound in Nunavut, and for a new national park reserve in the Thaidene Nene area of the east arm of Great Slave Lake. In each case we are working closely with the provincial and territorial governments as well as aboriginal peoples.

I want to assure the House that while our government continues to work to protect national parks and marine conservation areas, we are also working to promote urban conservation. We also want to bring the inspirational messages of such faraway places as Sable Island to urban populations because we want people in urban communities to be inspired to take action to protect their natural areas.

As we move to bring Sable Island under the Canada National Parks Act, our government stands to make a special contribution to urban conservation in Canada in establishing the country's first urban national park in Rouge Valley in the greater Toronto area. Rouge national urban park will be a unique concept that would include the conservation of natural and cultural assets, sustainable agriculture, opportunities for learning and a wide range of recreational activities.

Canada's national parks already make an important contribution to urban conservation, through the provision of clean air and water and the economic benefits in natural areas. For example, the protective watershed of Banff National Park supplies life-giving drinking water, provides recreational opportunities and supports farmers and industries well beyond its boundaries.

Parks Canada's places also provide sustainable ecosystems that are home to our migratory areas for many species, such as warblers and monarch butterflies in Point Pelee National Park. These species are in turn a key link in the ecological chain of urban areas.

While the provision of clean air and water and the ecological benefits of natural areas are an incredible contribution, in fact, they only make up a fraction of what Parks Canada provides to Canadians in urban conservation.

Arguably, Park Canada's largest role in this matter is to provide the opportunities of experiencing nature first-hand, an increased public awareness of sustainable development and natural heritage and an inspiring sense of pride in taking conservation action. This is a cornerstone of what it means to be Canadian.

There is a large body of research that demonstrates that exposure to natural environments helps people cope with stress, illness and injury and improved concentration and productivity.

As I wrap up, I encourage my colleagues opposite to support the bill. I am very encouraged by the high level of productive dialogue that we have had. I am very much looking forward to having a good discussion at committee on the bill, to review each of the concerns my colleagues have brought forward. I have tried to provide some clarity on those tonight. The minister will be speaking later as well.

I certainly hope this is an example of where we can work together within this place, do a wonderful thing for conservation in Canada and also protect one of the most sacred and ecologically-sensitive areas in our country, not just for now but for generations to come.

I am so proud of what the Nova Scotia government has done in this matter. I am so proud of what industry has done. Together, in the House, we can take the final step and make the Sable Island national park reserve happen.

Expansion and Conservation of Canada’s National Parks ActGovernment Orders

8:35 p.m.

NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, people at home probably are not used to seeing debates in the House that are not really incredibly partisan, but we may actually have a debate tonight about issues.

I thought her speech was very good in content and so, I have a content based question.

The parliamentary secretary rightly points out that there are a lot of concerns expressed by community and community organizations about the definition of “low-impact exploration” on the surface of Sable Island. I note that low-impact is not actually defined in the Canada National Parks Act. Nor is it defined in the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act.

We have to bring this to committee. We have to hear from witnesses what “low-impact exploration” means. At that point, would the government be open to a possible amendment to the act to maybe insert a definition into the act of what we exactly mean by “low-impact exploration”?

Expansion and Conservation of Canada’s National Parks ActGovernment Orders

8:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Mr. Speaker, I share my colleague's concern about ensuring that we get the terminology right within the bill so we are setting a precedent for the long-term protection of this area and we can be very clear on what these activities mean.

The example I gave tonight within my speech was, I believe, one of the only instances of this activity occurring, so it gives me cause for hope that this could potentially happen within a very defined context and also see ecological benefits.

As my colleague said, I am looking forward as well to hearing from witness groups.

On the point of amendment, we have to ensure the Nova Scotia government and other partners that have been involved in the creation of the bill are comfortable with any changes that could or could not be made, given that there is a mirror agreement in place.

However, the discussion needs to start at committee. We need to hear from witnesses. I would certainly be amenable, as a member of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development, to personally exploring what low-impact seismic activity means, then looking at it within the context of the legislation and moving forward from there.

Expansion and Conservation of Canada’s National Parks ActGovernment Orders

8:40 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for the details that were given. It is important that we understand the possible impacts of the seismic activity on Sable Island. Parks Canada has told me that it has only one study. I am wondering if the parliamentary secretary could therefore share with the House how seismic activity can affect the environment and wildlife. There is real concern that this could be a precedent.

Could the member guarantee that this new park will not set a precedent and that the integrity of Canada's national parks will not be undermined, but protected?

Expansion and Conservation of Canada’s National Parks ActGovernment Orders

8:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Mr. Speaker, those are all excellent questions. Given the constraints of time, for the latter half of my colleague's question with regard to the precedent setting nature of this, I would direct her to check Hansard on the front end of my speech because I laid out quite a bit of text around that concern.

The member asked about the seismic activities. I did a little research in this regard. I have a couple of points.

First, the resident of Sable Island who I spoke about in my speech was involved in the follow-on study to the last seismic activities that happened at the park. A study done in that regard showed this activity could be done within a very tight framework with very strict guidelines and still preserve the ecological integrity of the island, which is the key component in ensuring the creation of our national parks.

Again, given the length of time that I have this evening, I am happy to speak to my colleague at committee about some of the other concerns she has about the potential ecological impact of seismic activity. We have some examples here, but I would probably spend five minutes reading them into the record and I am sure we will have witness groups that will come and talk about this at the committee stage as well.

I am certainly looking forward to addressing these concerns. I share her concerns and I look forward to hearing witness testimony at committee.

Expansion and Conservation of Canada’s National Parks ActGovernment Orders

8:40 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the parliamentary secretary for her excellent work. I was a member of the environment committee for a number of years. I was a former national park warden in our parks in Alberta and had a tremendous opportunity there. I worked with some fantastic people in Parks Canada. It is a great agency. I was glad to represent Rocky Mountain House National Historic Site too and the wonderful work that has been done out there to commemorate our past and the work of David Thompson.

My question is for clarification on what the difference is between a national park reserve and a national park, the levels of protection. I know there are some games being played by some of the opposition in trying to confuse Canadians about what that is.

Clearly this is not going back to the way the Liberals, under Pierre Elliott Trudeau, used to do things, which was to expropriate land for the creation of Kouchibouguac National Park where some 1,200 people were uprooted and basically thrown off their land indiscriminately. That is clearly not happening in this case. We have good examples like Grasslands National Park Reserve where it is a willing seller and willing buyer. These are the kinds of things that were brought in by a previous Conservative prime minister Brian Mulroney. We have Pacific Rim National Park Reserve where those protections are afforded, yet there are still outstanding land claims and so on.

What kind of assurances can the parliamentary secretary provide to those who would seek claim there? Are people going to be disrupted the way they so rudely were so many years ago in the creation of some of our national parks?

Expansion and Conservation of Canada’s National Parks ActGovernment Orders

8:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Mr. Speaker, this gives me the opportunity to reassert the importance of partnering with first nation communities in the creation of protected spaces in our country. Absolutely we need to have robust consultation as well as ensure that any claim rights are respected in the development of further protections for these types of areas.

To the distinction between Canada's national park and a national park reserve, as I said earlier in my speech, a reserve definition is clearly defined under the Canada National Parks Act and it used where there are outstanding claims by aboriginal peoples regarding aboriginal rights and title and these claims have been accepted by Canada for negotiation. Just to be absolutely clear, a national park reserve is protected just as much as a national park, all while respecting the assertion of aboriginal or treaty rights.

Again, while I have time here tonight, on behalf of all of my colleagues in the House, it is such a pleasure to see a positive partnership such as the one that has been established with the Mi'kmaq, with the Nova Scotia government and with industry to come up with a solution, a made-in-Nova Scotia solution, to protect such a very special piece of land. I certainly look forward to celebrating that by passing this bill through this place.

Expansion and Conservation of Canada’s National Parks ActGovernment Orders

8:45 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, Sable Island is, of course, the graveyard of the Atlantic. One of the concerns is that it is a moving sandbar.

I have two questions for the parliamentary secretary.

First, because of the fragile nature of Sable Island, will there be a buffer around the island to protect its interests? Second, grey seals are exploding off Sable Island. Many fishermen are concerned about this explosion of grey seals and the effect they will have on Sable Island itself. Would this legislation ensure the possibility of some kind of harvest of grey seals to reduce the damage they may cause to Sable Island?

Expansion and Conservation of Canada’s National Parks ActGovernment Orders

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Mr. Speaker, those are two very good and important questions that have come up during the discussion of this legislation.

To the first point on the buffer, I believe that there is a one-nautical-mile buffer created by the bill that prohibits petroleum drilling activities in that area to ensure that the ecological integrity of the park is protected.

With regard to my colleague's question about the seal population, Parks Canada has a detailed policy for species management within a variety of national parks. In this context, it would be seals. In other national parks, there are other species that become overpopulated from time to time. Parks Canada has a protocol to manage such situations. I want to reassure my colleague that while the protocols exist to allow that, they have strict ecological integrity components and they are done under strict management practices. While I do not have those in front of me tonight, that is certainly an excellent question to bring up at committee, because I believe that it should be put on the record.

We on the government side, and my colleagues on the opposition side, have heard that this is a concern among fishermen in the area that has come up several times over.

Expansion and Conservation of Canada’s National Parks ActGovernment Orders

8:45 p.m.

NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to be standing here tonight speaking to this bill. It has been a long time coming. It has been decades coming. This is a really important piece of legislation.

Some games have been played with regard to this legislation, and despite the assertions of the member for Wetaskiwin, the games have not been played by the opposition. The games, in fact, have been played by the Conservatives. I think this legislation is too important for games. If there is time at the end, I will address what happened. All of that aside, I want to jump in and talk about the substance of this bill, so let us take look at the legislation.

First, I want to say that I want to support this legislation, but I will not do it at any cost. This is absolutely worth supporting at second reading. We need to get this to committee. I am eager to get it to committee. I am eager to work with both the Conservative and Liberal members of the environment committee to take a good look at this legislation, hopefully resolve some of the issues we may have with it and eventually pass it.

As members know, this legislation will establish Sable Island national park reserve of Canada. That is pretty exciting. It is a huge step.

As members might know, Sable Island is a long, narrow crescent of sand in the North Atlantic. It is about 290 kilometres off the southeast shore of Nova Scotia. Believe it or not, Sable Island is actually in the riding of Halifax. I am the member of Parliament for Sable Island, for the one person, Zoe Lucas, who lives there, and all of those horses.

My provincial counterpart in the Nova Scotia legislature, Minister Leonard Preyra, represents Sable as well. The name of his constituency is actually Halifax Citadel-Sable Island. He is lucky enough to have Sable Island in the name of his riding, which is pretty fun.

Sable Island is characterized by sand dunes and grasses. It is home to over 190 plant species. It has the world's largest colony of grey seals, as we heard from my colleague from Sackville—Eastern Shore. There is a borderline problem with grey seals on the island because of the population explosion.

There are 350 species of birds, including roseate tern, which is protected under the Species at Risk Act.

It is a little anomaly there in the ocean, but it is a pretty special place. I have never been. I am not sure that I want to go, because I respect the idea that we should not all be heading to Sable Island. I respect that we can learn about it and appreciate it from the mainland. However, it certainly occupies a special place in the hearts of Nova Scotians.

Of course, as members know, the island's most famous inhabitants are wild horses. There are about 375 of them on the island. The Sable Island horse is Nova Scotia's official horse. Who knew that Nova Scotia had an official horse? Every single Nova Scotian knows that.

Sable is on the edge of the continental shelf, and as a result, it has some pretty wicked storms, with big surges and rough seas. As a result, it is known as the graveyard of the Atlantic. There have been about 350 recorded shipwrecks on the island.

What does this bill do? This bill is a culmination of years of work by community members, the federal government, the provincial government and Parks Canada. They have all come together to work to protect Sable Island's unique nature and ecosystems.

In 2004, the federal and Nova Scotia governments concluded that “it would be in the public interest to use a federal protected area designation to achieve conservation objectives for Sable Island”.

That was in 2004. That was really the beginning of the big thrust to turn this into a national park. Since then, Parks Canada has engaged in very real and meaningful consultation, including public sessions where they just reported back on where they were and gave us status updates. I attended a number of these in Halifax.

I need to take a moment to acknowledge the work of the people at Parks Canada who have been handling this file. They have done an incredible job. They have listened to concerns and have been very open. Huge credit goes to them. They have done an excellent job of establishing trust in our communities.

As I said, this island occupies a special place in the hearts of Nova Scotians, and as a result, everybody is afraid that something will go wrong. What would a park designation mean? Would it mean that it would turn into Disneyland or something? There was a lot of hesitation. Parks Canada worked slowly and patiently with communities, heard out their concerns, and built an incredible amount of trust in the communities.

I also want to note the work of Zoe Lucas, from the Green Horse Society, who we have already heard about tonight. She is an incredible person. There is the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society. Right now, Chris Miller is handling this file. There is the work of Mark Butler with the Ecology Action Centre, including many other people who have championed this work. I would also like to give a special shout out to Leonard Preyra, who has really been a champion of this bill in the legislature.

We have the bill in the House. What would it do? It is not perfect, and it is okay that it is not perfect. It is not perfect, but I think it is a step in the right direction. I have some issues with the bill that I am hopeful we can explore at committee. I understand that the minister will be speaking to this bill in the House. I am grateful that he will be part of the debate tonight and will hear my concerns, and hopefully, even speak to them.

There will be a proposed section 140.1 of the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum and Resources Accord Implementation Act. I will call it the offshore act. The change states:

140.1 No person shall carry on any work or activity related to the drilling for petroleum, including exploratory drilling for petroleum, in Sable Island National Park Reserve of Canada or within one nautical mile seaward of its low-water mark.

That means that there will be no drilling. That is a complete ban on drilling. That is my interpretation of this section. That is very important. There will be no surface drilling within one nautical mile. That is my understanding or interpretation of that section. Keep that in mind while I move on to the next section, because I want to apply that no-drilling part to another section.

Section 142.1 of the act will be amended to say in proposed subsection 142.1(3):

142.1(3) With respect to Sable Island National Park Reserve of Canada, the surface access rights provided for under this section are limited to the following:

(a) access to existing wellheads for the purposes of safety and environmental protection;

I will skip to proposed paragraphs 142.1(3)(c) and 142.1(3)(d) which state:

(c) emergency evacuation capacity for offshore workers; and

(d) the operation, maintenance and inspection of emergency facilities, including helicopter landing and fuel storage facilities.

I skipped proposed paragraph 142.1(3)(b), but I have no problem with what I read. Of course, there are already existing wellheads. I understand that the wind blows the sand off the wellheads, and people need to be able to deal with them. Having emergency facilities like a helicopter landing in case there is an emergency offshore makes good sense. I do not have any problems with those parts of the bill.

However, proposed paragraph 142.1(3)(b) is the exploration we are talking about. It states:

(b) petroleum exploration activities with a low impact on the environment, including seismic, geological or geophysical programs;

If we go back to the surface drilling piece, my interpretation of the legislation says that exploratory activities would mean no drilling also. I would interpret this to mean that even seismic is no drilling. I would interpret this to say that one could take soil samples. It is not drilling to take a spade and dig a little bit, but I interpret this to mean no drilling, and I want to explore that at committee to make sure that this is a correct interpretation.

Going further with this idea of the exploration activities, there is a huge problem with the issue of seismic. I have already started getting emails and being contacted by people in the community saying that they do not understand what this means, that this is really worrying for them, and I share that concern. What does seismic look like? I heard the speech by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment, who talked about how seismic has changed and that it is much more low impact here.

My understanding of seismic is that it is a not very big kind of box, probably the size of this podium, that sends out sound waves, and they can take a picture that way. It does not involve dragging giant cables or drilling. However, I want to find out from the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board, CNSOPB, if this is what it is talking about, because there is no definition here of what “low impact” is. It is not in the National Parks Act and it is not in the offshore accord act, so what is this seismic?

I am also looking forward to testimony from the CNSOPB about this idea of low-impact exploration. Does that have to be approved by the CNSOPB as well, or is it something that companies can do just by virtue of being in this section of the bill?

I talked about companies. ExxonMobil actually has the rights for drilling on the island. They do not drill on the island right now, and they do observe a one nautical mile limit, but it is voluntary, so it is very positive that the bill would put into legislation something that is happening voluntarily.

However, the leases will still exist. I am having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that if the leases still exist but they are not allowed to drill, do they need permission from the CNSOPB to do this exploration? What does it look like? What kinds of impacts will it have on the environment?

The parliamentary secretary talked about how Zoe Lucas was able to work with industry to come up with best practices when it comes to this kind of exploration. I would love to hear more about that and maybe have Zoe Lucas come to committee and testify as a witness. I understand that she has worked closely with industry to avoid things like dragging equipment through the dunes, making sure there is a moratorium on this work during certain mating seasons and those kinds of assurances.

Zoe Lucas spends most of her time on the island. She is an extraordinary scientist, and I trust her. Therefore, if this is something that she has worked on, my inclination is to say that it is probably to a pretty high standard, but that is something I think we need to explore at committee.

We have banned surface drilling. We have banned drilling within one nautical mile. However, to me this means that at 1.1 nautical miles, we could have platforms. What does that mean for noise pollution and light pollution? We are dealing with species at risk on the island, and I want to know if there are those kinds of environmental concerns.

Let us imagine this platform at 1.1 nautical miles, just outside the range. There is still drilling under the island. I have had a number of contacts from people in communities saying that it is outrageous. My instinct is to say that is outrageous, but I am trying to understand what it means, and I am also trying to understand if it is technically possible to be 1.1 nautical miles out, drill down below bedrock and then do horizontal drilling.

We all know that horizontal drilling is real and that we have the technology to do it, for example, in hydraulic fracturing, but is it technically possible right now to do that kind of drilling? If it is below the bedrock, what are the potential environmental implications?

Sable Island, as members know, is in a gas field, so I am not as concerned about things like oil spills. However, I would like to flesh out this idea of drilling under the island, because it is pretty concerning. I would also like to hear from the CNSOPB and the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society about their perception of the environmental impacts of this drilling.

My colleague from Etobicoke North and the parliamentary secretary for the environment raised the precedent-setting issue. This is a funny beast, because Sable Island falls under the jurisdiction of the Coast Guard and under this offshore petroleum accord. However, the offshore petroleum accord is being amended here, not the parks act, when it comes to drilling. I do not see how it would be a precedent for other parks, because it is such an unusual situation: there are no other parks under the jurisdiction of the offshore accord act.

I suppose this question would be best put to the department to flesh out what the potential precedents are. I do not think there are any. That is my interpretation when I read the legislation, but I would like to flesh out that concept a little bit more.

Regarding the consultation with the Mi'kmaq, I did hear the explanation from the parliamentary secretary about the issue of park reserve versus park. She explained that while this Made-in-Nova Scotia Process is happening, we actually should not be designating things as parks but rather park reserves, which offers the same protections and obligations.

I understand that argument. That is also my interpretation of the legislation, but again I would like to flesh that out at committee with the department. I know as well that some people from the Confederacy of Mainland Mi'kmaq testified at the Senate, and I would like to hear from them too.

My colleague from Sackville—Eastern Shore raised the issue of the seal population on the island. I think we need some answers from Parks Canada about the seal hunt. To the best of my understanding, hunting is allowed in some national parks.

There is a big difference between a seal hunt and a seal cull. The NDP has been supportive of a hunt, but not necessarily of a cull, so it would be important to know if hunting would still be allowed on the island. This is not a make-or-break issue, but it is an important piece in understanding this legislation.

Those are my major concerns with the actual legislation. I am looking forward to working with my Conservative and Liberal colleagues on the environment committee to try to figure out what we do with this legislation and whether we can and should amend it. As I have said, I will be supporting it at second reading to get it to committee.

I want to come back to something that happened this afternoon, because it really does trouble me. It is the fact that we are sitting until midnight. We have been sitting here until midnight for a while now. That is okay. I am pretty tired, but it is okay, because every moment in the House, even if it is a tired moment, is a real privilege. It is a very special thing to be here. Even though it is until midnight, I am still honoured.

I am pretty tired and my skin is pretty thin, quite frankly, because that is what happens when we are tired. I still had quite a bit of spirit, but today in the House, my spirit was broken a little bit.

I do not understand why we are sitting until midnight. I do not understand what the urgency is and why we cannot work co-operatively to get some of these things through the House. I do not understand why we are debating bills that we could have debated when the Conservatives prorogued the House and we were not sitting. Perhaps we could have debated these laws then, because most of them are repeats, but they needed to shut debate down at that time.

Regardless of all of this, being tired and having thin skin, I have kept my spirits up. I have done my best to do my job. I have tried my best to do my job. However, today, as you saw earlier, Mr. Speaker, the Conservatives moved time allocation. They moved to limit the debate on this bill.

That in itself is not special. In itself it is nothing new, because today's time allocation was the 42nd time that they have moved time allocation. The upsetting thing is the fact that the NDP was trying to work with the government to move this bill forward. This is what I spoke to during the questions and answers around time allocation. We were trying to negotiate. We opened a door to say, "Let us try to pass this and do something together", but they took that door and slammed it in our face.

Usually our adversaries are the critic and the parliamentary secretary, but this is not about the parliamentary secretary. We have a very good working relationship. This is about the leadership of the Conservatives. It is about the House leader's leadership. It is about the fact that all they know is to pick up a hammer, and when one has a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

It is very hard for me to think that we are going to be able to do this at committee, have that kind of negotiation and work together. I have lost a tremendous amount of trust, and I think it is worth saying it again on the record that this is the reality.

I need to get this to committee. I am open to working with my colleagues, but it is going to be pretty hard.

Expansion and Conservation of Canada’s National Parks ActGovernment Orders

9:05 p.m.

Calgary Centre-North Alberta

Conservative

Michelle Rempel ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Halifax for her very thoughtful questions. I am looking forward to exploring many of those issues at committee and I am hoping that we can come up with a witness list that is collaborative and will answer these questions. If she could give me some of that ahead of time, we will make sure that we work to schedule it.

I have two questions for her.

One is with regard to the bill. She mentioned raising the possibility of amendments in committee. I wonder if she already has specific ideas for the definition of low impact or if she has heard anything from her contacts in the ENGO community that we could begin to do some research on.

The second question is a more esoteric one. She spoke about colleagues working well together in this place and she talked about leadership. She talked about how negotiations go down in this place. I would like her thoughts, because it takes two to tango, on how perhaps her party, as well as ours, could raise the level of debate in the House, because it is about negotiation. If she has some positive feedback or suggestions that my colleagues here could take back to our caucus, I would be willing to listen to those as well.

Expansion and Conservation of Canada’s National Parks ActGovernment Orders

9:05 p.m.

NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, that is a great question about the amendments. The Parliamentary Secretary and I have spoken outside of the House about what those possible amendments are. I did commit to trying to get some to her before we went to committee. I am actually finding that a really difficult task because I feel as though I do not have quite enough information at my fingertips yet to be able to do that.

I do not know if it would mean an actual definition of low impact or if we need to maybe alter proposed paragraph 142.1(3)(b) to say no to some specific things. I am open to either one, but to clarify would be a great idea.

On her point about raising the level of debate, I do think that there is a failure to collaborate in the House. Everything is about getting it in, getting the time allocation and pushing everything to the limit. Maybe the government gets the right to do that when it is a majority. I do not know; I cut my procedural teeth in a minority government, so there was a lot more negotiation. There was give and take.

I would hope that our House officers would take a more collegial approach when it comes to figuring out how we get legislation through the House and actually make it better. I do think it is a leadership issue. Those of us who are not House officers, who are not in those leadership roles, would follow suit very gladly.