Debates of Jan. 30th, 2014

Opposition Motion—Canadian Forces

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I wonder if my colleague from the NDP could summarize, in the time he has available, the difficulties that military personnel are facing, how they are treated once they declare they have post-traumatic stress disorder, and the short time it takes for the military to drum them out?

I have spoken to a lot of vets and military personnel. If they come out and just say they are suffering with something, that automatically triggers the zero hour, and the military tries to force them to get out quickly. All the programs they have and everything else they do is like trying to mend Humpty Dumpty after he falls off the wall. They cannot. I wonder if my colleague could comment on this.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Mr. Speaker, in my previous life before politics, I was a journalist. I was a newspaper editor. I will never forget this story. My newspaper at the time, The Independent, carried a story about a Newfoundland and Labradorian veteran who had served in Afghanistan. At one point he held the record for the longest shot, the longest kill. I cannot remember the range, but it was an incredible shot. I think the record was beaten the year after. This veteran talked about what he experienced in the war zone and what he experienced when he was fighting. The point of the story was that when he came back he suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder. When he reached out for help that he so desperately needed, it was not there.

Too often what happens is members of the military are hesitant. They do not want to step forward because the moment they do step forward and seek help they are removed from the military. The clock starts ticking on their leaving the military. They are basically signing off on the end of their career, so they are hesitant to do that. That is one problem, and when they do leave the military the help is not there for any mental health issues they may have.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this week's unfortunate events involving the Minister of Veterans Affairs and tomorrow's closing of veterans' centres exposes the soft underbelly of this government beast, a government ruled by uncaring ideology instead of good public policy.

It is indeed an honour and a privilege to rise today to add my voice in defending and honouring our veterans. The reduction in services for our brave men and women who risk their lives for us, for our country, and for our freedom is appalling and without merit. The cowardice on display across the aisle dishonours the great sacrifices made by generations of men and women who have served Canada in its time of need.

Where are the Conservative backbenchers who should be pushing the government to reverse these reckless cuts? They should be joining us in calling for improvements instead of meekly lining up behind the minister and marching veterans into Service Canada to stand in line. They have already stood on the line at Passchendaele; at Vimy Ridge; at the Somme, where my great-grandfather, Lieutenant Louis Rosario Lavoie, made the ultimate sacrifice; in the Spanish Civil War; at Dieppe on D-Day; at Monte Cassino; in Hong Kong; in Korea; in Bosnia; in Afghanistan; and at countless other locations at home and around the world. They have done their time on the line.

Now the current government is asking them to make another sacrifice, and I say, no.

What all Canadians want, what veterans want and deserve, and what we on this side of the House want is for the government to give those who have faithfully served Canada, and their families, the respect and dignity they deserve.

As we approach the 100th anniversary of the start of the Great War, I am reminded of my great-grandfather, Harold Riley, who served Canada in both world wars. He was wounded three times in the Great War, came back with shell shock, and suffered regular nightmares for the rest of his life. We did not know what we now do: how to help soldiers who come back home with mental health issues.

We owe it to them to provide all the help we can so that they do not suffer like my great-grandfather and so many others did and so they can lead happy, peaceful lives after that great personal sacrifice.

It is time we act on the over 50 outstanding boards of inquiry on military suicides so that grieving families may have the answers and closure they deserve and so that we may learn how to better prevent more tragedies in the future.

Recent soldiers should be of great concern to Canadians, as they are to New Democrats. Our motion today seeks to address this very important issue.

Last October 1, on the third anniversary of the passing of my grandmother, Ivy Harris, who worked at the GECO munitions plant as a teenager with my great-grandmother, and then at 17 joined the Canadian Women's Army Corps, my father, my uncle, and I became members of the Royal Canadian Legion, Branch 73, in her honour and in honour of all of our family members who have answered our country's call. I feel it is my duty to them to rise to defend all of our veterans. It is about respect and dignity.

In addition, this is also why I will soon be tabling a private member's bill in this House to make Remembrance Day a national statutory holiday. On the 100th year since the start of the war to end all wars, my private member's bill is one way I can personally convey my profound respect for all those who have served our country and continue to faithfully serve our country to this day.

It is time we recommit ourselves wholeheartedly to our veterans. I know that Canadians agree, and I hope soon Conservatives will agree too.

Of course, today we are also talking about the closing of eight veterans' centres across the country. Veterans are going to be asked to stand in Service Canada lines or to suffer through horrific wait times on the phone. We have been hearing for the last year and a half, since Conservatives started cutting Service Canada locations, that we have dropped calls and a degradation in quality and service. Even MPs representing their constituents can sometimes have trouble getting through. Is this what we want to make our veterans do? It is a disgrace to ask our veterans to stand in line after all they have done for our country.

The closing of the veterans' centres is inevitably going to degrade the service they receive.

After my grandmother became a senior citizen and started to have trouble keeping up the house, the Veterans Affairs' centre was there for her. It helped to provide the services that helped her to stay in her home so she could live out her life in dignity and peace without having to suffer through giving up the home she had lived in for over 50 years.

I cannot fathom why the government would make these changes. It actually spits in the face of veterans when the minister makes such appalling remarks and exhibits behaviour of a crass nature. Sure he apologized, but it should not have happened in the first place. That kind of thing should never happen. To make veterans wait 70 minutes is the level of service they are going to get going to Service Canada offices, and that is exactly the service the minister gave. We think he should resign, and if he does not resign, it is the Prime Minister's responsibility to show respect to our brave men and women by firing him. He has shown time and again, on the F-35 file, on military procurement, and now in Veterans Affairs, that he has absolutely no business being a minister of the crown.

Unfortunately, coming from Toronto, I have had lots of previous experience with this minister, as the head of the OPP and as the Toronto police chief and then as chief of police in London. We would think that after all of those years of service, after all of that experience gained, he would have a bit more compassion and respect for the men and women who wear uniforms for our country.

Of course, the Veterans Affairs centres also serve RCMP veterans, men and women who have defended our streets and kept our streets safe all over the country, sometimes in very remote locations. All of these men and women who have served Canada deserve to have the best kind of service we can offer and the best mental health services we can offer. Sadly, the current government has been sorely lacking in this regard.

Again, why? Is this all about the budget line? Is this all about balancing the books so we can give a whole bunch of tax credits that will not actually help working people and will not help most of the veterans who have served our country? Is that what this is about, the bottom line? This is one area where the bottom line, while always important, should not be the deciding factor. What should be the deciding factor in the kind of services we provide, in the veterans' centres we have, and in what we do to honour their sacrifice is providing the best possible service. That should be the determining factor. However, we are closing veterans' centres all across the country, and we are going to put them in Service Canada locations.

There are 600 points of service. Having 600 point of bad service does not mean improvement in services for veterans. Replacing 13 people who deal with their cases in some offices with one person in the Service Canada office is not improving services. That is one-thirteenth, and that is if they can even get that person. If there is somebody in line in front of them, or if the person is serving someone else, they might be sent off to a telephone or asked to look at a computer to file their claims.

Online service is a whole other issue, and the current government has been lacking there too. Over 90% of EI claimants can file their claims online, but they cannot check the status of their claims online. Now we want to tell veterans to get their services online and to download an app on their phone. The world is changing, and the face of veterans is changing. They are becoming younger. Those kinds of online services might be good for them, but they are not good for those who came before them. We are asking people in their 80s and 90s to go sit in a Service Canada office and use one of their computers. It is an absolute disgrace. It is a degradation of service and has no business in this House.

We should be doing absolutely everything we can to improve services for veterans to honour that great sacrifice. I have repeated that a couple of times. They have sacrificed everything for our country, and we are not going to do the same for them. We should. We have to. We must, absolutely.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member opposite for his speech. I disagree with much of it.

I have been sitting here all day listening to the speeches, and I am a little concerned that some of the speeches from the opposition benches are saying that the 650 or 600 new sites are going to give bad service, that our veterans and the people of Canada are getting bad service. Why do the opposition members consistently attack our civil servants who work at our Service Canada sites across this country? They give excellent service, and on this side, we are proud of the work they are doing. Why are those members not?

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

He must be in the pocket of big union bosses, Mr. Speaker, after that kind of speech.

Does he honestly not hear from his constituents about the bad service they get? The workers in Service Canada locations do an excellent job, without the resources they need to provide the level of service Canadians deserve. There is a big difference between the workers doing a great job and the managers hashing it up.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I have had the opportunity to serve in the Canadian Forces, and it was quite the privilege and honour to do so. When I left the service, one thing I noticed was that the private sector, the government sector, and non-profit groups tend to look at individuals retiring from the forces with a great deal of respect. When they apply for positions, they are often given extra consideration. There are groups, such as Commissionaires Manitoba or Commissionaires in Canada, who will hire retiring military personnel, and it is because of a sense of respect for what members of the forces do.

It has been called into question whether the Minister of Veterans Affairs respects our veterans. Yesterday the leader of the Liberal Party, in question period, put this particular question to the Prime Minister:

...those who have served their country and put themselves in harm's way for all of us deserve our respect, and they deserve our courtesy. The Canadian heroes who tried to meet with their minister yesterday received neither. Will the Prime Minister fire his Minister of Veterans Affairs?

Does the member believe that the Minister of Veterans Affairs has demonstrated respect for our veterans?

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker. I think he has shown some very poor judgment, and I think the Prime Minister showed some pretty poor judgment in the House yesterday when he basically called the veterans who came in to demand the services they deserve part of the union, that it was a union plot. Guess what? Unions are there for working people, and soldiers and veterans in the military are working people. They work together on getting the services they need and deserve. The unions respect soldiers; why do the Conservatives not?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Mississauga East—Cooksville.

As the member of Parliament for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke and CFB Petawawa, the largest Canadian Forces Base in Canada and training ground of the Warriors, and as a 14-year veteran of the Standing Committee on National Defence, I welcome the opportunity to participate in any debate regarding the well-being of the women and men who serve Canada in uniform.

I mentioned my number of years in service on the Standing Committee on National Defence to highlight that I am not some Johnny-come-lately when it comes to interest in the care of our soldiers. I witnessed the decade of darkness first-hand, and I am proud to say that I voted with the Conservative government and Prime Minister to reverse that decade of neglect.

I have watched in disgust every time our soldiers and veterans have been made into political footballs and kicked around by the opposition. The worst example for our women and men in uniform was the decision by the Liberal Party to use military procurement for partisan purposes and send our soldiers into Afghanistan without the proper equipment. The cancellation of the EH101 military helicopter contract for partisan political reasons cost us the precious lives of Canadian soldiers. It is a fact that once our Conservative government provided the strategic lift for our soldiers to get them off the ground and away from the IEDs that lined the roads of Afghanistan the casualty rate dropped.

Let us be clear. On behalf of all Canadians, the current official opposition, regardless of what it says, does not believe that Canada should have an armed military, and pardon me if I sound cynical every time the Leader of the Opposition invokes the name of our soldiers and veterans and tries to embarrass our government. I am prepared to accept at face value the motion of the member for Châteauguay—Saint-Constant to work with all members of Parliament to improve the lives of our soldiers and veterans, as long as the politics are taken out of the discussion and facts are allowed to guide the way to our decision-making. I recognize that government is not perfect and there is always room for improvement.

My riding of Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke is served with a Veterans Affairs office in Pembroke, and a sister office, an integrated personnel support unit, IPSU, at Base Petawawa. Unlike the offices that are being closed, the Pembroke office is a very busy, high-tempo shop with 29 staff members. The caseload in this office is split between traditional Veterans Affairs clients and newer rehabilitation cases, more recent DND veterans. Veterans Affairs and DND work together through the integrated personnel support centre to help Canadian Armed Forces personnel, regular and reserve alike, and its veterans and their families, to achieve a successful transition from military to civilian life.

IPSCs were founded on the principle that early intervention makes a difference in recovering from illness or injuries and successfully re-establishing civilian life. The IPSC at Base Petawawa provides support to Canadian Armed Forces, ill and injured personnel and veterans and their families, with the focus on the following core functions: the return to work program coordination, casualty support outreach delivery, casualty tracking, casualty administration and advocacy services, support platoon structure to provide military leadership supervision, administration support, and a liaison for military family resource centres with local base support representatives and local unit commanding officers.

Veterans Affairs collaborates with the Department of National Defence to conduct outreach to Canadian Armed Forces personnel veterans and their families to provide them with a clear understanding of the number of programs, services, and supports available to them. This includes conducting transitional interviews with members before they leave the military.

Base Petawawa also operates an operational trauma and stress support centre. These centres were established to meet the needs of Canadian Forces members returning from overseas deployments and suffering from tour-related psychological problems. Operational trauma and stress support centres are an initiative designed to complement the full spectrum of high-quality health services that the Canadian Armed Forces provides to Canada's military personnel wherever and whenever they serve.

This government recognizes the important and selfless contribution of our military men and women. That is why I worked hard, together with all of my colleagues, to provide them with the best health services possible. Because we understand they are more likely to suffer from operational stress injuries such as post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, we know mental health services and support are critical. That is why Veterans Affairs Canada, the Department of National Defence, and the Canadian Armed Forces are working together to ensure that veterans and military members with mental health issues receive the help they need.

Significant investment has been made by the Canadian Armed Forces to ensure that our military members receive the highest standard of mental health care possible. Since 2006, the Canadian Armed Forces health care investment has increased, bringing our expenses in health care close to $420 million each year. There are no budget cuts when it comes to caring for our military.

In 2012, the government announced an additional $11.4-million investment, to enhance the armed forces mental health care system specifically. This brings the total amount of annual mental health investment for military members to $50 million. These investments translate to approximately 400 mental health professionals dedicated to our men and women in uniform, and we are currently working on bringing in additional qualified applicants to fill the spaces available.

One of the challenges of having a military base in rural Ontario is the shortage of health care professionals for the entire population. Even though the federal Conservative government has struggled to find mental health care professionals for Base Petawawa, we have successfully staffed five doctors for a base population of 6,000 soldiers; compare that to one psychiatrist for a local civilian population of 100,000 people. We have five doctors for the military population of 6,000 and one for the remaining 100,000 people in the civilian population. Is there a health care crisis in Renfrew County? Yes. Is the federal government trying to deal with the provincial shortage? Yes.

To the family and friends of the military members and veterans who have taken their lives in the past and in the recent months, I extend my sincere condolences. Every suicide is a tragedy. As Canadians, we are all affected when one of our Canadian Armed Forces members takes his or her life. We know how much they gave to this country.

Canadians are proud of our armed forces. The Canadian Armed Forces is among the best armed forces in the world. The health of our military members will always be a priority for the Conservative Government of Canada. The strength of our military organization is its people, and we need to continue to take care of them and their families.

Our government is supporting the men and women in uniform in the Canadian Armed Forces who are suffering from mental illness. However, I wish to reiterate the role we play in eliminating the stigma around mental health. Going through mental illness is very difficult, so let us encourage people to seek help, because seeking help is the first step to recovery.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am rising on a point of order. I am sorry to interrupt the debate. I want to clarify something that I said earlier in my speech. I made an error. Actually, Kim and Blair Davis are from Lawrencetown, Nova Scotia, not Eastern Passage. I was thinking of someone else. Also, his service was in Bosnia, not Afghanistan. I want to clarify that for the record.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for her great speech highlighting investments that the government has made across all veterans services, and our record investment in the Canadian Armed Forces.

We have heard a lot of discussion throughout the day around the points of service for our veterans. I wonder what the member is experiencing in her riding and if she has heard across other ridings what I know to be the case with Service Canada and the expanded points of service in the Yukon Territory and Whitehorse. Our veterans did not have an office, and now we are going to receive services for our veterans, not only with all of the work that is currently being done, but through the addition of a Service Canada point of service for them. Indeed, I am sure a whole host of other Canadian communities are going to realize some advantages through one of the 600 offices that are being opened.

I am wondering if she could highlight areas in her region that are going to experience an enhancement of service where otherwise they had absolutely no office service delivery.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, in my riding of Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, we are well served by Veterans Affairs, both in the city of Pembroke, where many retired people live, as well as on the base.

However, what I am learning from veterans in other communities is that where there was no official available to help counsel them with services, they will now have it available. They welcome that.

The closures are occurring where there were only 10 or maybe 20 visits per week at most, and in those areas the workers from Veterans Affairs will go to the homes of the people, or anyplace else the veteran would like to meet them. It will be better service one-on-one than before.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I heard the member say that in places where these offices would close the veterans would welcome visits.

Let me give the member some facts and figures on these services that will close. In Corner Brook, the files will be transferred to St. John's, an eight-hour drive. In Sydney, the files will be transferred to Halifax, a five-hour drive. Charlottetown files will not be transferred to the national headquarters; they will be transferred to Halifax, a five-hour to seven-hour drive. In Thunder Bay, they will be transferred to Winnipeg, a nine-hour to ten-hour-drive. In Windsor they will be transferred to London, a 2.5-hour drive. From Saskatoon they will go to Regina, a three-hour drive. Brandon will likely go to Shilo, which is a 45-minute drive, or to Winnipeg. From Prince George, they will probably go to Penticton, which is a 10-hour drive, and in Kelowna they will go to Penticton, which is a one-hour drive.

If we put the hours of driving to the hours of service together, there is absolutely no way that service managers will be able to look after all our veterans. As a matter of fact, it is estimated there will be one minute for looking at the files by the service managers—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Order. The hon. member for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the member outlining all the different VAC offices that are closing and the distances. Those distances will now be travelled by the assisting Veterans Affairs officers. Much of the service is done by phone or over the Internet, but for those who need one-on-one service, we will now be going to them.

More to the point, when the member's party was in power, the Veterans Affairs committee travelled to Base Petawawa. We had a group of people who were transitioning out due to operational stress injuries. I will always remember the last person who spoke. He came back from Afghanistan. All his buddies had been blown up in a transport carrier. He was the only survivor. He begged for a year for a psychiatrist to meet with him. It was not until that day, a year later, that he received his first psychiatric appointment.

If something like that were to happen today, it is either immediate or within two weeks that a person who requests a psychiatrist would get one. We have gone miles ahead of where the old government could not be bothered to tread.

[Djaouida Sellah, NDP, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague opposite for her speech. I listened closely to the points she made.

Unfortunately, the facts are the facts. Since coming to power, the Conservatives have cut $225 million from the Veterans Affairs budget and have eliminated one-quarter of the department's employees and services. In proceeding with those cuts, they froze hiring of medical staff for mental health.

I know that when our soldiers agree to be deployed, they accept the liability. They agree to unlimited liability and recognize that they could lose their lives. That is the ultimate sacrifice for Canada. Do these people not have the right to a minimum level of service? I would like to ask the member if she plans to vote for our motion to get things back on track. This is yet another opportunity for her to do that.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, what is happening is that if expenses are going toward brick-and-mortar offices that are getting fewer than a dozen visitors a day, we are taking that money and reallocating it to people who can counsel and provide health care for our veterans.

Let us talk about the facts. As far as health care goes, in one year alone we increased funding by $11.4 million. We continue to commit $50 million. There have been no cuts to health care, especially mental health care, for our soldiers and veterans.

The member who came in to make a point of order on an error made another error as well in saying that the first time a soldier goes for help is the first day of the end of that soldier's career. That is absolutely false. Everything that is discussed between a medical professional and a soldier who comes for help remains absolutely confidential. The military chain of command does not have access to it.

Instead of spreading false information and causing harm to the people who need help by discouraging them from seeking it, I wish everyone could work together, including the sponsors of this motion, to ensure that people have the courage and the willingness to go ahead and seek help.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege to stand in this House and confirm our government's full and continued support for men and women who have served our country so well.

It is a special moment for me, because since my election in 2011, I have been serving on the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, and everything that is related to veterans is very dear to me.

Canada's veterans represent the very best of what it means to be Canadian. They have served with courage, distinction, and honour. They have always put country and service before all else to defend our cherished way of life, often at great sacrifice to their families and themselves. They have helped to bring peace and freedom to many places around the world that had known only violence and oppression.

That is their proud history, and it is why our nation is now the envy of the world. It is also why our government is committed to recognizing their service and honouring their sacrifice every day. That is our record, our history. We have made it an extraordinary priority to ensure veterans and their families receive the care and support they need and receive it when they need it. That is why our government has always insisted that veterans' benefits and services be maintained and enhanced, no matter what economic times we might find ourselves in.

That is why Veterans Affairs Canada's annual budget has increased by almost $785 million this year over 2005. That is why we have invested almost $4.7 billion in new funding to enhance veterans' benefits, programs, and services. We are committed to serving veterans as they have always served our great country.

With the time I have remaining, I would like to highlight some of the many ways we are working to serve veterans and their families better and faster and in more modern and convenient ways.

I am sure most members in this House are familiar with our government's cutting red tape for veterans initiative. We launched it in February 2012 with the single-minded purpose of providing veterans and their families with faster, hassle-free service, and that is what we have been doing.

We have been streamlining Veterans Affairs Canada's business processes, simplifying the department's policies and programs, and making greater use of new technology and e-services.

The results so far have been impressive, with improved turnaround time for processing veterans' disability benefits. Access to rehabilitation services is now being approved in just two weeks, instead of four. We have reduced the number of forms and the length of the forms veterans have to fill out, and we have placed a renewed emphasis on using plain language in our correspondence with veterans and their families.

That is just the start of what we have accomplished. By the time this five-year initiative is fully implemented, our programs, benefits, and services will be the most responsive, inclusive, and flexible that Canada's veterans have ever seen, and we will be delivering them as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

Veterans are already reaping many of the benefits. Just last fall, for example, the Minister of Veterans Affairs announced a new approach to our vocational rehabilitation program that gives veterans improved access to about $75,800 in training to start a new career. This is great news for approximately 1,300 veterans participating in our vocational rehabilitation and vocational assessment services.

These changes also build on other recent enhancements. For example, we have simplified our process for reimbursing veterans for travel costs to and from their medical appointments. This means that approximately 17,000 veterans no longer need to send receipts to the department or verify their appointments with it to recover their travel expenses.

This one change has eliminated a lot of cumbersome paperwork for eligible veterans, and it is putting money back into their pockets faster. We are doing the same for the more than 100,000 veterans, widows, and caregivers who use the veterans independence program. Last year, we began providing upfront payments for snow clearing, lawn cutting, and housekeeping services. Veterans no longer have to pay out of their own pockets for these services and then wait to be reimbursed.

These kinds of changes make a real difference. They represent real results for veterans. They also allow Veterans Affairs Canada's employees more time to provide the extremely high-quality service to veterans that they are best suited to offer.

Another way we are doing that is by introducing a full suite of e-services for veterans who prefer to go online for the information and assistance they want. These new e-services include the new veterans' benefits browser, which helps visitors to our website quickly determine which benefits and services are most relevant to them; the new “My VAC Book”, which is a customized, print-on-demand brochure that puts important information at veterans' fingertips; and the enhanced My VAC Account, which provides veterans with secure 24/7 online access to the department from anywhere in the world.

Of course, some veterans, like some Canadians, still prefer the traditional approach to service—that is, speaking to a clerk, an agent, or a teller face to face. We understand that. We get it. That is why our government has been expanding veterans' services in those areas with the largest populations of veterans. That was the raison d'être, back in 2009, for establishing the integrated personnel support centres on Canadian Armed Forces bases and wings. Today we have 24 such centres across the country, as well as seven satellite offices, so that military personnel and veterans who are in the process of releasing can have one central point of service for assistance from VAC and DND employees who are working side by side. It is also why, more recently, we have been expanding VAC services into the nearly 600 Service Canada locations nationwide. Through this single change, we are giving veterans and their families new points of contact and greater access to professionally trained front-line employees in their own communities.

Our government believes that veterans deserve more options and more choices when it comes to dealing with Veterans Affairs Canada. Through the many innovations we are introducing, our government is proud to be delivering, with better and faster service.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my father was a vet of World War II. He dealt with the medical corps, serving overseas with those who were suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. We are seeing that now. We are seeing, just here in Ottawa, major lineups and wait times for our veterans who are trying to get services.

I hear the language. I hear “600 points of contact” and “streamlined”. “Plain language” was the one that jumped out at me. My colleague was talking about plain language, and the plain language that we need to talk about today is the fact that tomorrow, services will be shut down. The door will be closed to the vets who need those services.

When I hear that we are going to have online services and we are going to streamline and have “more options and more choices”, I have to ask who they are talking to. I think what we are seeing is an internal kind of structure within the department coming up with all these streamlined ideas and “better services”, while on the ground, everyday people who need the service are not being talked to.

Therefore, my question is this: does my colleague not believe the veterans who were here yesterday? They said they do not believe this is going to help them, that they need those services. They said not to shut the offices down tomorrow.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we discussed all of these issues at the committee meetings. We have done studies. We have members from both sides of the House on the committee. I do not quite understand the logic behind the opposition claims; it is as if anything new that is done is wrong.

We cannot continue the status quo. Times are changing. There are new technologies available. The population of our veterans is changing.

Over a million brave Canadians served in the Canadian Armed Forces in the Second World War. Those who are still alive are in their nineties or older and require a different approach than the young veterans who are released from the Canadian Armed Forces now. Therefore, we have to look at different approaches for the different veterans we have in Canada. They deserve the service for their service to this country.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am paraphrasing, but the member just said that they deserve the service.

In Charlottetown, we have 2,138 veterans who are going to the VAC centre looking for service. If it closes in Charlottetown, it will go to Halifax, which is five to seven hours away.

I know of a veteran in Charlottetown who is close to or might be 90 years old. I hope he is watching. He has no computer. He has a rotary dial phone that he does not want to get rid of because it reminds him of when his wife brought it home. He cannot punch the number 1 or the number 2.

I am wondering if the member will volunteer to pick him up and drive him, because certainly the staff in Halifax will not go to Charlottetown every single day to watch not only him but also other veterans. I am wondering if the member wants to retract the words he just said.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will not retract anything. I actually believe that the people who serve our country deserve our respect and deserve the services that are available for veterans.

The veteran he mentioned does not need to drive anywhere. He will get his services in the place where he lives.

It is awkward to hear that question from the member who was part of a government that introduced the deepest cuts to veterans in this country in the recent history of Canada. In the cuts that he voted for, veterans were cut off from their benefits and these were not restored until 2009. He knows that very well. I do not know why all of a sudden he has become a person who is fighting for the rights of veterans. He voted for those changes. He cut services and benefits that veterans truly deserve.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am thankful for this opportunity to speak on this very important motion that will be voted on tonight in the House.

What I hope to do in my short time, before I hand it off to my colleague from St. John's East, is to talk about some things that no one has talked about here today. I have listened to the debate and there are some things that have been said that are counterintuitive and do not make any sense, so I am going to try to make sense of some of them and try to get to the bottom of things.

I first want to talk about the offices closing. Veterans this week came to Ottawa hoping to meet with the Minister of Veterans Affairs about the impending closures. They were joined by some concerned staff and members of PSAC. Unfortunately, they were snubbed by the minister, if I can put it that way. He kept them waiting, failed to show up at the scheduled meeting, and then disrespectfully dismissed their concerns. Those are not my words, but the words of the veterans who came to Ottawa, including Roy Lamore, a Second World War veteran from Thunder Bay. They were rightly upset, which people saw on the news last night, and a number of them have called for his resignation.

The thing that sticks out in my mind and perhaps in many people's minds was indeed Roy Lamore, who has been a activist for veterans for over 70 years in this country. It was he who said “hogwash” just before the minister walked out of the meeting. We are probably going to hear more of that kind of terminology later, as time goes on.

Just before I stood to speak, there was a conversation going on back and forth about the number of veterans. I remind people that these offices also deal with 25,000 RCMP veterans and their families. That is often forgotten in this discussion. There are 25,000 RCMP veterans and their families. When Conservatives talk about investing $4.7 billion in Veterans Affairs, consider this: when Ste. Anne's Hospital is transferred and all the other cuts happen, there will be approximately 2,000 people cut from Veterans Affairs.

If we look at the Conservative cuts across all of the departments on a percentage basis, Veterans Affairs has the largest personnel cut of any department and the staff involved will all be gone by 2015, some time in the next year. All of those 2,000 people will be gone. That is the first point. It is a little counterintuitive for the government to say it is increasing service but cutting 2,000 people. How does it rationalize that? It says it is transferring the offices to 620 Service Canada points. I want to say a couple of things about that.

I heard Conservative member after Conservative member today say these people will be trained. We know from the 2012 ombudsman's report that the government does not have a good record of training anyone. I want to talk about that a little later when I talk about mental health. At least 620 people are going to be trained. These are not new positions at Service Canada, but people who are already there. Keep in mind that Service Canada is already understaffed and overworked. If anyone has to go to Service Canada for any help, that person would find that is very readily the case. Some of the people who are already there will supposedly be trained in Veterans Affairs issues. That is one of the things that disturbs veterans, particularly wartime veterans, the most.

In short, the government is going to let go of all the people who already have expertise, the people whom veterans have been dealing with, in some cases for many years, helping them with their issues. It will then train new people who will have Veterans Affairs business on top of all their other business, such as CPP disability, EI and all sorts of other things. To say the service is going to be better, well, it is absolutely impossible that it would get better.

What happens now in a typical Service Canada office? People wait in line for maybe 15 or 20 minutes or half an hour, if they are lucky, and then they will see someone who will say, “Have a seat over there while we wait for someone to be free”.

Now we could assume that 620 people are going to be trained by the current government, but in fact they are not going to be trained. So it is going to be a fiasco for those who are 93 years old to make their way to the Service Canada office to get some kind of service. It is a big problem.

Service Canada staff are excellent. Those people work hard and do the best they can, but to add more duties and training onto a job they do not really have or know anything about is going to be very difficult for the veterans.

I have received a couple of emails from constituents asking what exactly the closures mean. They hear the back and forth. They hear from the veterans and the minister, but what does it actually mean?

Well, this is what it means. One office has already been closed, more are closing, including the office in Thunder Bay. These offices provide critical and specialized services for the Canadian Forces and, as I said before, 25,000 RCMP retired members and their families. These services include assistance with accessing benefits and services, support for mental health services issues, crisis intervention, and helping elderly veterans access services to live independently in a one-on-one environment. It also means that veterans will have to travel to other cities if they want that face-to-face interaction for front-line services, or be forced to try to access service online or by telephone.

Last week I tried the 1-866-522-2122 number. Although I did not get anyone, it seemed as if the message I got was, “Well just hold on and enjoy 40 minutes of flute music and we'll see if we can get back to you”. It is just not a suitable situation.

Of course, many seniors do not have online services or cannot get access to them. I live 30 minutes from Thunder Bay and I do not have cellphone service or Internet service. I am not exactly sure how seniors across the country will be able to access these services. Of course, it is especially difficult for elderly veterans or those suffering from PTSD.

Veterans will lose that long-term relationship they have, and I think that is one of the things missing from the government's discussion here. Many of these veterans have built up long-term relationships with staff at regional offices, which is especially important for veterans young and old, wartime and modern veterans who have complex needs, particularly mental needs. To deal with telephones, or to go online, or to travel a long distance simply does not make sense. It would involve travelling long distances to meet people who likely would not have the same training as the people who are there now.

I will give one simple example of the difficulties that people have not talked about.

One of the services that the wartime veterans get is snow removal. What used to happen was that the Veterans Affairs office would help the veteran coordinate the snow removal service, ensuring that someone was hired to remove the snow, making sure they got paid, and so on and so forth. What will happen now is that the veteran will get a cheque at the beginning of the snow season based on last year's snow.

Last year in Thunder Bay there was hardly any snow, but there is lots of snow this year. So when the veterans run out of money halfway through, can members imagine their phoning or being online with Service Canada saying, “I've run out of money for my snow removal”. Is that going to get sorted out? I do not think so. It would get sorted though if Veterans Affairs offices remained open and if there were that face-to-face contact.

It is really disingenuous for the government to say there are fewer and fewer veterans. There are more veterans. There will be almost 6,000 new veterans released from the Canadian Armed Forces in the next year.

I could go on and on. I know members would like me to, but in closing, I would appeal to the minister that at the very least he keep these offices open until all of these other people, these 620 people or so, are trained.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from Thunder Bay—Rainy River for his intervention. Sitting behind him is the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore, and I know that over our time in the House, he has earned my respect for all the work he has done on behalf of veterans.

Over my 14 years here, I have seen some terrible mistakes made by governments. This one makes absolutely no sense. I am sure my friend will agree.

They continue to say “600 points of service”. There was a letter received by one of my colleagues. The writer said that he and his wife went into Service Canada to renew their passports. The husband was a veteran, and he went over to the attendant and said, “I understand you people are taking over the files for the veterans. What are you going to be able to do to help me should I need that help?”

The person who attended him said, “I am not really sure. I took that training some time ago, but I know I have a 1-800 number here that you can call if you need any help”.

What kind of service is that for the men and women who answered the call of duty for this country? Does my colleague think that is a good level of service for them?

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, of course that is not a good level of service. It is not even close. We are talking about respect and dignity for veterans and their families. That is really the bottom line.

It is unbelievable. The existing employees in Service Canada are already overworked and already have to do too much and cannot keep up with the day-to-day duties, because those numbers have been cut too. Even specialized people who are in the offices right now were not moved to Service Canada. We have maybe one person in a Service Canada outlet who is going to have some sort of training in veterans affairs. I do not know how the Conservatives can even start to claim that this would be an improved level of service.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my hon. colleague for mentioning the 25,000 RCMP retired veterans. We have approximately 700,000 military veterans, RCMP veterans, and independent spouses. The DVA has a client base of just over 200,000, so two-thirds of that base is not even being served now. Many military and RCMP veterans simply do not know the benefits they are possibly able to get.

As my colleague from Cape Breton—Canso said, what type of service does the member think these people who are applying for the first time at a Service Canada office should expect in the near future?