House of Commons Hansard #57 of the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was public.

Topics

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, in June of last year when the whole issue of proactive disclosure really came to the House, the leader of the Liberal Party at that time sought unanimous support of the House of Commons. We did not achieve it back then, but we continued to push it.

It is nice that we have the Conservatives somewhat onside, and I appreciate the fact that they are going to be supporting the motion. However, it is important to recognize that the whole issue of leadership on this issue has come from the leader of the Liberal Party of Canada.

We need to recognize that, at the end of the day, we want to see all members of all political entities in the House support the initiative of proactive disclosure. Maybe the member could point out from his perspective how important it is that all members of the House get behind the resolution that has been presented by my colleague.

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Mr. Speaker, I would like to compliment the hon. member for Winnipeg North for all the hard work he is doing in his riding, which is pretty standard form, or should be standard. The abilities of the gentleman from Winnipeg North astound me each and every day. He is unbelievable. I want to highlight the situation. That man spends tireless hours in the House, to the point where I am inspired on a daily basis. It is unbelievable. If it were any better, I could retire and become that man's agent or his publicist. Members may laugh, but it is true. They know he spends more time here than most people I have seen in ages. He is Winnipeg North. It is as simple as that.

The member did bring up a good point with respect to proactive disclosure. Let us look at the very essence of what this is. It means members will be judged as members of Parliament, and they will be judged on policy and voting. There is one thing Canadians cannot get to judge them on, and that is their expenses in executing their job. With this motion they could. We are getting closer. We are not perfect, but we are getting closer to where we should be on proactive disclosure.

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the member for bringing forward the motion, which we will be supporting as well.

In response to a question from my colleague around the issue of giving the Auditor General a clear legislative mandate to oversee and audit the spending of the House of Commons, the NDP has been pushing for this for some time. I understand from the member that he is favourable to that and that the Liberals will be accepting changes and modifications to include the Auditor General as part of that. The member and I agree completely on that. Canadians assume the Auditor General already has jurisdiction, and they would be quite surprised to learn that the Auditor General does not.

I wonder if the member could clarify what he is saying. Does he support the Auditor General being called upon to oversee and verify these expenses?

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Mr. Speaker, am I to understand that there is an amendment coming forward? I get that feeling, but I am not quite sure. It is not out there yet. I am not quite sure what this is. I am not sure if it can be accepted by the House.

Basically I am saying all of this because I want to leave that man in suspense. Why not? I want to leave him in suspense because we practise what we preach. I do not think the NDP does.

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

An hon. member

Who does not disclose it?

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Mr. Speaker, can I go online and get the NDP expenses?

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

An hon. member

No. Not the NDP.

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

I cannot. Is that correct? I was wondering if each member of the NDP—

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

I would ask hon. members of the Liberal caucus to be quiet, so their colleague can continue.

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

See how open we are to accepting criticism, Mr. Speaker. That is just the type of party we are. We are open.

If this is the ultimate way the NDP wants to behave by disclosing its expenses and everything else, why has it not been done? I cannot go on the NDP website and find expenses. I do not quite understand. I think there may be something afoot here. I hope the amendment will finally put an end to this, whereby every member of the House of Commons would tell Canadians what they spend in executing their job.

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Vancouver Island North B.C.

Conservative

John Duncan ConservativeMinister of State and Chief Government Whip

Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out that what we have in front of us today is an allotted day opposition motion from the Liberal Party of Canada. I would like to actually thank the member for Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor for his motion, because moving toward increased transparency and accountability is something our Conservative government has strongly supported and continues to support. Our government has a solid track record of achievement when it comes to improving the transparency of all aspects of government operations, including contracts, tenders, and government records.

I think it is easy to forget how far we have come since 2006. Today, we take for granted all the protections we now have in place as a result of our initiatives, but we should not lose sight of what inspired us to make these changes in the first place.

We had a Liberal government that was caught with both hands in the cookie jar. There were mysterious and lucrative contracts with Liberal-friendly ad agencies, with little or no work to show for them. There was misappropriation of taxpayer money, kickback schemes, and money changing hands in brown envelopes. As the Gomery commission poked at the rot, a picture began to emerge of a system tailored to benefit the Liberals and their friends. There was a systemic lack of accountability and oversight. There were insufficient guidelines governing appointments, advertising, and behaviour of ministers and their staff.

With all this in mind, our first order of business when we formed government was to enact the Federal Accountability Act, the toughest accountability legislation in the history of Canada. This was a sweeping initiative, designed to close the loopholes the previous government had used to enrich itself and its friends.

For example, the Federal Accountability Act and action plan, among other things, reformed the financing of political parties; cleaned up the procurement of government contracts; cleaned up government polling and advertising; provided real protection for whistleblowers; strengthened access to information legislation; strengthened the power of the Auditor General; strengthened auditing and accountability within federal departments; strengthened the role of the Ethics Commissioner; and toughened the lobbyists registration act.

In all, our Federal Accountability Act and action plan made substantive changes to 45 federal statutes and amended more than 100 others, which touched virtually every part of government. This was a significant achievement.

However, since then, our government has continued with its unprecedented work on strengthening the transparency and accountability of our public institutions. For example, we are working to ensure that federal departments post more information on contracts, including those for professional services and management consultants and those awarded to former public servants.

We have also taken significant steps to make important information more accessible than ever to the public. For example, government procurement information can now be found on a single website called Buyandsell.gc.ca, which is free of charge and does not require registration.

In 2012, departments began publishing quarterly financial reports, which are accessible through the open data portal, which can be found at data.gc.ca. Summaries of completed access to information program requests can now be searched online through this open data portal.

We have also unveiled a searchable expenditure database, which for the first time provides citizens and parliamentarians with easy access and analysis of all government spending.

We continue to strive to make information more accessible to Canadians.

Though this government released a record number of materials through access to information requests in 2012-13, which was a 27% increase over the previous year, we still had one of the fastest turnaround rates on record for processing access to information requests. There is no question that this is a record of achievement. It is a record that shows relentless progress toward increased transparency and accountability. It is a record that shows necessary respect for the right of taxpayers to see where their money is going.

It takes great effort to get to where we are today, and it will require great effort to continue our progress. It has required an investment of time and political will to continue moving it forward. We have done it because it was the right thing to do.

We understand that the same information that helps Canadians understand their government can also be twisted and mischaracterized by our political opponents, which might explain why previous governments did not enact the changes we have enacted and why we have had so much ground to cover as we work to improve transparency and accountability in government. However, that still has not deterred us. We will continue to move forward, knowing that we are building a system that makes it harder for people to misuse government resources for personal gain.

Our determination ultimately arises out of a respect for taxpayers that underpins our party. We are not afraid to set higher standards for ourselves. We do not try to fool Canadians with grand schemes that distract the eye and empty the wallet but accomplish nothing. We try to develop practical solutions to real problems that respect the bottom line. We have not governed to enrich ourselves but to build a better, stronger Canada. We have shown unprecedented leadership in transparency and accountability and are very proud of our accomplishments in this regard.

Today I would like to focus on specific actions Conservative parliamentarians have taken to apply these principles in their personal affairs, specifically by improving transparency and accountability for travel and hospitality expenses.

The motion in question calls for the travel and hospitality expenses of members of Parliament to be reported in a manner similar to the government's proactive disclosure guidelines for ministerial expenses. I am proud to say that Conservative members of Parliament have gone further down this road than anyone.

We knew that Canadians were concerned about expenses both here and in the other place, and we sought a way to provide them the assurance they need with respect to how their money is being used. We pushed for improved reporting that would provide more details for all MPs, particularly with respect to travel and hospitality, but we were concerned about the time frame required to achieve this within the formal reporting mechanisms that apply to all members. Rather than wait, we developed our own system for tracking travel and hospitality expenses.

We chose to base our own reporting system on that used for proactive disclosure under the ministerial model for travel and hospitality expenses. The model is adapted to fit MP expenses and is driven by two primary principles. The first is that if a travel or hospitality expense is paid for by the taxpayer, it should be reported within our system. Second, the most important relationship, when it comes to reporting expenses, is between the member and his or her constituents.

Although our Liberal colleagues also developed a reporting system, there are a number of differences in our respective approaches. It is impossible to compare principles with the NDP, since it has no reporting system at all. Instead of making an honest effort to require their members to improve their transparency, they offer only excuses and deflection.

A careful look at proactive disclosure by ministerial offices reveals comprehensive accounting of travel and hospitality expenses, not just by ministers but also by their political staff.

Conservatives are the only party currently posting complete travel and hospitality expenses for staff as well as for parliamentarians. MPs' staff do important work for our constituents and are in a position of trust. It is no less important for us to account for travel and hospitality expenses for our staff. Just as ministerial staff have to disclose all travel expenses charged to the taxpayers, Conservative MPs also provide proactive disclosure on all staff travel expenses.

My Liberal colleagues go partway in this regard in that they appear to report staff travel when it takes place between Ottawa and the riding, but there is no sign of travel expenses incurred within the riding. This is at best a half-measure, but to be sure, and in fairness, it is a vast improvement over the complete lack of measures exhibited by the NDP.

Another apparent difference between the Conservative and Liberal systems is that Conservatives are posting all items charged under the hospitality budget as hospitality expenses. It is not clear if this is the case for the Liberal system, but perhaps they could clarify whether they are posting all hospitality charges or just selected ones.

One thing is clear. There is one party in this place that is not offering details of its hospitality expenses, and that is the NDP. My colleagues in the NDP have decided that they would rather not post any detailed expenses. Not only that, they have tried to disparage our attempts to increase transparency regarding our expenses. They have the gall to wrap their lack of transparency in a cloak of virtue. The NDP members claim that they will not report their travel and hospitality expenses because there is not currently a system that applies to all MPs.

Well, we agree that there should be a system that applies to all MPs. We do not agree that this should stop MPs from taking steps to increase their own transparency. A new system will not appear overnight, so we have taken steps to fill the gap. In the end, while the NDP waits for a system that applies to all MPs, virtually all MPs except the NDP have a system in place.

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

April 1, April 1.

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Blaine Calkins

The truth hurts.

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Conservative

John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC

They are heckling me now, Mr. Speaker.

The NDP members claim that they will not report their expenses because the systems currently used by other parties require self-policing. While we agree that we should work toward a system that is vetted by House administration, we do not agree that this is a barrier to MPs being accountable to their constituents. I have worked hard to ensure that my travel and hospitality reports accurately reflect my expenses, and I believe that my colleagues have done the same.

I wonder why the NDP balks so much at posting its expenses. Is it because it mistrusts its own members so deeply that it would rather post nothing than coax them to do it themselves, or is it because they are worried about what the public might see if their spending were posted? Whatever ideas the NDP offers as a distraction, the fact is that absolutely nothing prevents it from taking immediate steps toward being transparent now.

Currently, MP expenses are closely scrutinized by the non-partisan experts within House administration. The quality of their work, as far as I understand, is not being debated, and the Auditor General has confirmed that the safeguards they have in place are rigorous and effective. This motion, as I understand it, would allow us to explore ways in which we could collect and collate information so that it could be presented in a format similar to ministerial proactive disclosure, which has been widely accepted. This makes sense.

The NDP, on the other hand, would have us do away with the current system entirely. It would have us set up a new system, based on the British system, which, according to evidence provided at procedures and House affairs, functions in a manner very similar to our own system.

The British developed an arm's-length organization, because their system was not working. Setting up their organization cost millions of pounds and took several years and a lot of growing pains. It was worth the cost and effort for them because they were replacing a system that was completely broken. In the end, they ended up with a system of safeguards not remarkably different from what we already have in place. Why would the NDP ask us to spend millions of dollars to end up no further ahead?

I am proud of our government's record on transparency and accountability and can confidently state that we will continue to lead on this front. Since this motion is consistent with the direction we have already taken and efforts already under way, thanks to Conservative leadership, I have no problem supporting it. In fact, I move:

That the motion be amended by adding immediately after the word “posting”, the following words, “, on April 1, 2014,”.

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

In these cases, the mover of the initial order of business must agree to the amendment. Does the hon. member for Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor accept the amendment as moved by the Chief Government Whip?

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

It is accepted and in order.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Burnaby—New Westminster.

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that the trend on the Conservative side has been to pull what we call a Mississauga—Streetsville. In other words, they invent things that really are not true. The member knows full well that in my case, for eight years now, I have been having my direct website connected with my verified complete expenses, as have all NDP MPs. It is the only caucus in which all MPs are directly tied in to House of Commons disclosure. The member knows this.

What is curious is that he neglected to mention the number of Conservatives who have refused to participate in the partial and unverified disclosure the Conservatives were doing last December. In fact, a rough count, and journalists are looking into this now, shows that almost a third of the House of Commons caucus, and of course many more Conservative senators, given all the scandals they are embroiled in, are not even part of this partial voluntary scheme the Conservatives cooked up to try to put a little smoke and mirrors around expense disclosure.

I am going to ask the member a question. We are on television, so he has to give an honest answer. Does he realize just how many members of his caucus do not even subscribe to the partial smoke and mirrors disclosure the Conservatives put forward? Can he tell the House how many Conservative members are not even engaged in the partial disclosure from last December?

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC

Mr. Speaker, I actually take great umbrage at what the member from British Columbia just stated. First, I do not need a television camera on me to tell the truth. Second, yes, I am well aware of each and every one of the Conservative members who has posted or not posted. The current posting is 100% of Conservative members of Parliament and 100% of Conservative senators. It is auditable. It is true. I do not know anything you can do, other than apologize for being so blatantly wrong and accusatory.

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

I would again remind all hon. members to direct their comments to the Chair rather than directly to their colleagues.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Winnipeg North.

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, it is encouraging to see that the Conservatives have moved in this direction. Liberals appreciate the support. The amendment to bring it forward to April 1 is actually encouraging. This is something Liberals have been advocating for months now and is something we believe in. Proactive disclosure is a great way to ensure that there is more transparency. It is something the leader of the Liberal Party has been arguing for virtually since he took the leadership of the party. We give credit where credit is due and acknowledge and appreciate the support the Conservatives are giving the Liberal opposition motion.

Does the member feel that the only way we are going to be able to get the NDP to disclose the information we are currently disclosing is through the passage of this motion?

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC

Mr. Speaker, in fact I see the vast majority of this motion to be somewhat redundant, in that we are not going to get the NDP to move until there is no choice but to move. This is a motion.

We have something much more significant, which is direction from the Board of Internal Economy, as of April 1, whereby the House administration will ensure there is disclosure that is very much in parallel with the proactive disclosure we are undertaking at this time.

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, I find this debate counterproductive. The parties are trading accusations.

On this side of the House, the NDP wants to work with the Office of the Auditor General to withdraw from MPs the responsibility to police themselves through the Board of Internal Economy. However, the NDP initiative was thwarted by both the Liberals and the Conservatives.

I am not necessarily opposed to the formula as proposed by the Liberal Party today. However, I would like to know why the two parties in question are not supporting the NDP initiative. My question is for the Conservative Party.

Why does it not support the NDP initiative to ensure greater transparency in reporting by removing from members the responsibility to police themselves through the Board of Internal Economy and giving that oversight responsibility to the Office of the Auditor General?

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC

Mr. Speaker, the procedure and House affairs committee has already studied this subject at great length. The NDP was on this path during those committee hearings and got no support.

As a matter of fact, the Auditor General has stated, as I said in my speech, that the controls and processes in place by the House of Commons administration are extremely robust and more than adequate to fulfill the task. Now, with public disclosure on top of that, from the board, I cannot imagine why we would want to put a very expensive system in place. We do not require that to achieve our mission and goal.

Opposition Motion—Disclosure of Members’ Travel and Hospitality ExpensesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague, the hon. Chief Government Whip, for his excellent presentation in the House of Commons today. I would also like to thank him for his invaluable service, not only as the whip of the great Conservative caucus that we have, but also for the yeoman work he has done at the Board of Internal Economy. I would like to thank him for not only making sure that Canadians can rest assured that honest, hard-working members of Parliament have their expenses go through a rigorous process when it comes to their duties, but also for his leadership in making sure that the Conservative caucus posts its expenses.

I wonder if the Chief Government Whip could further edify something for the folks at home. I know he alluded to it in his previous answer, but I wonder if he could expand a bit more on the audit that was done by the Auditor General in regard to the House of Commons financial services.

Could he also explain why, in his opinion, Conservative members of Parliament and Conservative senators, along with some of the Liberal members, are the only ones who seem to be willing to publicly display items above and beyond what is currently required? Why does he think that the NDP seems to be afraid to do what most Canadians would deem to be appropriate, which is to proactively disclose?