Debates of May 27th, 2014

Motion that debate be not further adjourned

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, if I understand the question correctly, the hon. member has no problem sitting late. She is quite happy to sit until midnight. She is happy to do that. She just objects to losing the ability to make two kinds of motions. That is what I think I just heard. Dilatory motions. There are only two kinds of motions that she objects to, because that is what government Motion No. 10 is. Those motions are the motion to adjourn the House and to adjourn the debate.

From her question, I take it that she has absolutely no problem working late, she just objects to us taking away her ability to move to not work late.

This is the kind of stuff that we are accustomed to hearing from the opposition. It is nonsensical. It is ridiculous. If we are willing to work late, we are willing to say okay, we will not move to adjourn the House. We are willing to work late.

It is pretty simple.

[Marc-André Morin, NDP, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like the government House leader to explain something. How can he be absolutely certain that the government is always right?

As I listen to debates here in the House I see that, on all sides of the House, there are competent members who represent their constituents honestly. I learn things from my colleagues and sometimes from other members as well. I learn all kinds of things. That is why we are paid to be here.

If we decide to put an end to the discussion, we will miss out on some important information that should be taken into account in making a decision. I think that the legislation to protect people from dangerous drugs is a very good idea. It is long overdue. We should have been able to suggest amendments in committee. However, I did not see a single amendment pass in committee. I think hell will freeze over and we may even get to skate with the devil before that happens.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member poses a very good question, which I think is the challenge for all of us: when do we think we know enough and when have we learned enough to be able to make a decision? This is always a challenge for us. It is a challenge in drafting the legislation and it is a challenge in our legislative process.

Of course most of the changes we make happen at committee, where it is done in substance, but it is indeed the effort to find that right balance that marks everything we do in making decisions. On the other hand, we do not want to cut short the opportunity for input in order to get it right and to hear all the different views, but we also do not want to leave ourselves paralyzed so that decisions cannot get made and things do not get done. We see the kind of political paralysis that has hurt some other countries economically in recent years, for example.

Our effort is to find that right balance. I think the hon. member has identified that issue exactly, and this is our effort. We believe we are finding that right balance. Hopefully we are able to do that in a fashion that lets us make decisions in an informed fashion, with everybody here having the best interests of the public in Canada at heart.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

It is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith the question necessary to dispose of the motion now before the House.

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And five or more members having risen:

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Vote #145

Extension of Sitting Hours

[The Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

I declare the motion carried.

The House resumed from May 26 consideration of the motion.

[The Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

The hon. member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley has seven minutes left to conclude his remarks.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not think I will need to take the rest of that time. I wanted to conclude the earlier remarks I made with regard to Motion No. 10, which we are dealing with here. It is a motion through which the government has allowed itself to have extraordinary powers to use rules that all members usually have access to in the House. Now it will restrict them and limit them only to cabinet ministers.

Extending the hours of the House is fine. Allowing the Conservative cabinet members to be the only ones in the place to have these powers is not.

In earlier comments I was concerned for my Liberal colleagues, who seemed to think all of this was copacetic and good for Canada's democracy, and in fact seemed to be supporting the government on this motion to ram through more legislation and to abuse its majority powers. My Liberal friends need to come on board the democratic train here and at least stand up when Parliament is being bullied.

These are two separate issues for my friends across the way. They will catch up and pay attention to what we are doing now, which is dealing with Motion No. 10. What we just dealt with was another shutting down of Parliament. I believe it was the 64th time that debate has been shut down by the government. What we are dealing with now is Motion No. 10, to my Liberal colleagues across the way, which is a motion to extend the hours and limit control of the place only to Conservative cabinet members.

My Liberal friends and my Conservative friends know what is right. They know that democracy is more important than partisan antics, and I encourage them to fall back in line with some of the more true democratic principles.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very grateful to my colleague from Skeena—Bulkley Valley for speaking to this important motion.

Here we have a situation where the government is trying to handcuff the opposition by saying that only ministers of the Crown can propose any dilatory motions. The Liberals are supporting this, so they are supporting handcuffing the opposition.

How does the member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley explain this?

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I only encourage expediency through the questions and answers because, as the finance critic for the party, I am dealing with an omnibus bill at committee.

On my friend's question, I do not understand why the Liberals would support a motion that would handcuff all of Parliament except Conservative cabinet ministers. Just on principle alone, that seems like a very bad idea, considering some of the ethics and the behaviours of some Conservative cabinet ministers.

I would encourage my Liberal colleagues again, along with my Conservative colleagues in the backbenches who are also having their rights curtailed by this motion, to see the light, see something a bit better and support our opposition to this thing. Let us get Parliament doing what Parliament should do, which is to hold the government to account.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the chance to put a question for my hon. colleague, the member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley.

I have to share with the rest of the House that last year when the motion was put forward for sitting until midnight, I did not see the problem. I am not immune to hard work. I work very hard. However, I was pretty much the only person who was here every night until midnight, and no aspersions on others in larger caucuses because I know people get different assignments.

One of the things I noted was the lack of utility in the whole exercise. We spent hours discussing bills on which everyone agreed, whereas there had been short shrift given to things like FATCA, on which both my hon. colleague and I want to run back to the finance committee to try to get a proper result there, an omnibus bill on which we know there was not adequate time for debate or study.

These are not small points. The security guards, the translators and the staff of this place go through weeks and weeks for something that is extremely gruelling and I fail to see a single benefit to democracy in this place, of mandatory sittings until midnight. We went through it last year and I did not see that it improved the quality of the work. By the end of the time, the Conservatives were pushing through bills that really were not urgent and on which, if they had done unanimous consent, they could have saved the House hours of debate, late hours for translators and late hours for security guards.

It certainly is offensive, as the hon. member has pointed out, to have the only motions that are allowed during these late sittings to be from members of the Conservative cabinet.

Does my hon. colleague have a single explanation, with much more experience in the House than I have, of what benefit anyone sees, other than a sort of game of chicken, “We'll work harder than they do. What are you trying to accomplish here? Are you ready to go for the summer?” It seems like an exercise in sadism more than anything else.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I cannot speak to the sadistic tendencies of my Conservative colleagues across the way. I would only offer this.

That both, on the substance of this motion allowing Conservative cabinet ministers the exclusive rights and access to rules that guide this place, it is showing the dysfunction of Parliament under a Conservative government. Of course if there are bills and opportunities that the House unanimously agrees to, there are always opportunities for dialogue.

I know as former House leader, attempting dialogue with the Conservatives was like getting water from a stone sometimes. For my friend from the Green Party, what happens is that when the Conservatives only have one tool in the toolbox and that is a hammer, then everything starts to look like a nail. So they use the same tactics again and again.

As my friend from Saanich will know, when we have declared our willingness to support legislation we see as good and declare it our intention for the number of speakers we seek to have speak to the motion, the government shuts down debate anyway. Even when we tell the Conservatives yes on legislation that we all agree is for the benefit of the country, they return back to form and the Conservatives bring in more time allocation, more closure, and effectively shut down Parliament.

This is where we end up, with these ridiculous motions that take us to midnight, and the balance of things goes completely out of whack. Things that are deeply important, like FATCA, the agreement with the United States to disclose up to one million Canadians' tax information to the IRS, get minutes of discussion. Yet we have prolonged hours on things that we agree to. That is all under the guidance of the Conservative House leader of the Conservative government.

It is a shame. It is what we have come to. We know we can do better. We will do better in 2015 when an NDP government actually allows this place to function and work on behalf of Canadians rather than be bullied on a day-to-day basis.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Minister of State (Western Economic Diversification)]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague from Saanich—Gulf Islands made the comment, and I am not sure if I have the wording exactly right, “I don't know why we sit here late. I don't know why we do this. There's no one here. There's no one debating”. I wonder if there is something to be said about that. There are often times we have this discussion in the media and whatnot about the efficacy of Parliament and why we do this and why we sit here.

Could my colleague comment, and I am trying to ask a non-partisan question here, about personal ownership as a member of Parliament to come to debate prepared, to understand the order paper, to understand our constituents' position and take that personal ownership to come and participate in debate?

As we wind down the session, we have a lot of opportunities to speak to some very important legislation. Certainly, these extended hours will provide opportunity to do that.

I take issue with the question or the supposition that there is not a point in having these late hours, as was presented earlier in a previous question. Could the member comment on that?

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am not entirely sure that was exactly what the leader of the Green Party was saying. She was decrying that the tactic and the hours that go into conversations she did not feel were worthwhile because there was too much agreement. We could disagree about that as to the effectiveness. Sometimes “getting on the record” is important to our constituents, even when there is broad agreement, but those opportunities are relatively rare.

I would suggest something further that contradicts the democratic values that I hope each party holds, which are things like the omnibus bill that we are dealing with in the sense of the complexity that goes into one piece of legislation and the opportunity to do, as my friend said, represent various views and differing views when there is one vote. The current omnibus bill has 60 different laws being amended at once. It is 350-something odd pages, and I am heading back to finance right now. It also has trade agreements, veterans issues and Supreme Court amendments. All of those things rammed into one bill is fundamentally anti-democratic.

It is not me who said that. It was the Prime Minister when he sat in opposition. He was the foreign affairs minister when he sat in opposition. He said that these tactics were counter to democratic principles, but now that the Conservatives have ended up in government expediency seems more important than it does to have those principles and ethics at hand. Unfortunately, to do as my friend has suggested, to represent the people we seek to represent in this place, becomes increasingly difficult or virtually impossible under a Conservative agenda. Everything is bullied through, everything is rammed through, dumped into omnibus bills, closure on debate, the watchdogs of democracy are attacked, such as the Parliamentary Budget Officer, the former auditor general, and the Supreme Court Justice of Canada.

Again and again we see the fundamental genetic tendency that is going on with the Conservative regime. It is obviously out of gas and has lost its way. Its principles are completely cast aside. It is unfortunate but it happens. Canadians will have an opportunity within a year or so to send a message back that they want their Parliament to work on behalf of Canadians, not on behalf of the Conservative Party of Canada.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Skeena—Bulkley Valleyfor really setting the tone for what is happening here, which is the government trying to run roughshod over democratic rights.

I know the member, who is now the finance critic, was the opposition House leader last year in June. My understanding is that most evenings it was the New Democrats who showed up to work and the New Democrats who spoke. Most nights there were very few others, maybe one Conservative and one Liberal speaking every couple of nights.

Could the member tell Canadians what the participation rate was last year when we went through this exercise of steamrolling by the government?

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, what we know in attending the debates is that the Conservatives talk this tough line about working hard, that they are going to get to work and everybody else is the problem. Then when we look through the notes and the members who chose to participate, even on government bills that the Conservatives supported, the Conservatives do not show up. That is what they tended to do last year when this tactic was used quite early.

Historically speaking, as the House would know, extended hours are sometimes invoked, but much later in the session. They are by practice an attempt to clear the House of the last few stages of some bills that are hanging around. I think because the government has such a bad time getting its agenda accomplished, sometimes it is not even sure of its own agenda it seems, the randomness of bills, the sudden urgency of bills that suddenly come on the government's order, its practice has been counter to its narrative that it works hard. The practice and the reality is that it is overwhelming the number of NDP MPs who show up, do the hard work, the heavy lifting, and so be it. However, it seems strange that the Conservatives—

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You're the best.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we are the best, as the foreign affairs minister—