House of Commons Hansard #80 of the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was agencies.

Topics

Opposition Motion—Safeguarding of Personal InformationBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague's question is very pertinent. He will find agreement in my case that this issue should indeed be studied by a standing committee in great detail.

What concerns me is that this is perhaps just the tip of the iceberg. There may be private information being used across the board by the government, and abuses can easily creep in.

Given the post-digital world that we live in, the whole apparatus of government has to be looked at with regard to ensuring the privacy of Canadians: how we are doing it, whether we are doing it well, where are we doing it and where are we not doing it, which ministries are doing a good job and which ministries are not doing a good job. The place to determine that is in a parliamentary committee.

Opposition Motion—Safeguarding of Personal InformationBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my honourable colleague from Pontiac. He was right about everything in his speech except for when he said that Pontiac is the most beautiful riding in the country. I believe that Trois-Rivières is, but all kidding aside.

This morning's papers informed us that the Prime Minister's Office seems to have launched an internal investigation in order to measure the appetite of the various government departments or agencies for the requests for information that we have been talking about for the past few hours.

According to my colleague, is the government unaware of the situation, or does the right hand have no idea what the left hand is doing?

Opposition Motion—Safeguarding of Personal InformationBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my honourable colleague for his question. I am sure he will not be surprised to hear me say that I totally disagree with his statement that the riding of Trois-Rivières is the most beautiful. I maintain that Pontiac is the most beautiful, but we can discuss that another time.

I am surprised at the Prime Minister's response on this matter. The facts are compelling. They show that there is a structural problem within the government when it comes to protecting Canadians' data and privacy.

Canadians expect a much tougher stance from this Prime Minister. He must recognize the problem and agree that it needs to be studied in a non-partisan context, as in a parliamentary committee, and immediately take measures to protect Canadians' privacy.

Opposition Motion—Safeguarding of Personal InformationBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Mr. Speaker, I stand in support of the motion by the hon. member for Terrebonne—Blainville.

The motion calls on government to make public the number, and just the number, of warrantless disclosures made by telecom companies at the request of federal departments and agencies. The motion also calls on government to close the loophole that has allowed the indiscriminate disclosure of personal information of law-abiding Canadians without a warrant.

To simplify, how many times have telecom companies handed out personal information about Canadians without a warrant to government? The government must find an immediate way to shut down the loophole that allows such personal information to be released.

We live in an incredibly connected world. Earlier this year I travelled to Tanzania, Africa, to tour Canadian development projects with a group called Results Canada. Its mission is all about ending extreme poverty, and I did see some extreme poverty. One of the images that will always stick with me is walking into a maternity ward at a rural hospital, or what they called a hospital. The maternity ward was crammed with nine or 10 beds, but there were two women in labour to a single bed.

The Tanzanians I met were the finest and best kind of people, a lovely people, but they were living with basically nothing. Still, almost every adult I came across, who could have absolutely nothing but the second-hand clothes on their back and be sleeping under a tree, still had a cellphone, and they looked at the screens as often as we do.

My point is that from Tanzania to Mount Pearl, Newfoundland and Labrador, my neck of the woods, the dependency on the Internet and on cellphones is universal.

Just this weekend I read an article by Stephen Hawking, the Nobel Prize-winning physicist, on how artificial intelligence—and we are almost to that point—could be the worst thing to happen to humanity. It would be more or less the rise of the machines. I cannot even imagine a country being led by a robot.

Oh, wait; yes, I can.

Another article I read this weekend outlined how U.S. intelligence whistle-blower Edward Snowden has warned that entire populations, rather than just individuals, now live under constant surveillance. I do not know if it is to that point in Canada, but we do have some serious cause for concern.

Let us look at the numbers first.

In late April, we learned that government departments and agencies—the RCMP, Canada Border Services Agency, and CSIS, the Canadian spy agency—requested personal information from telecom companies almost 1.2 million times in 2011 alone. That is staggering. It is a jaw-dropping rate. As the previous speaker said, it is one request every 27 seconds.

However, the number of requests for personal information is most likely greater than 1.2 million, because three of nine telecom companies told the Privacy Commissioner how many times they granted the government's requests for customer data, not how many times the government asked for the data. It was how many times they gave the data.

It is reported that wireless telecom companies complied with the government's requests for customer data at least 785,000 times. The 2010 data from the RCMP show that 94% of requests involving customer name and address information was provided voluntarily without a warrant.

Here is another indicator or how often warrants were used or not used. Canada Border Services Agency obtained customer data from telecom companies 19,000 times in one year, but it obtained a warrant in fewer than 200 of those cases.

Do Canadians have a problem with telecom companies handing out their personal information left, right, and centre? Yes, we do. This is not 1984 or Brave New World. The idea of a Conservative Big Brother does not sit well with Canadians.

That said, it is generally understood across the board that police need information to catch criminals and to protect Canadian society. There is no time to get a warrant when a life is in danger, when a life is in jeopardy.

However, this is beyond that. At least 1.2 million requests for personal information, most times without a hint of a warrant, is a staggering statistic. The current Conservative government is paying to access our personal information, to the tune of between $1 and $3 for each request.

More than two years ago in this House, the former minister of public safety, Vic Toews, introduced Bill C-30, a bill to expand police surveillance of the web. At the time, he said “[You're either] with us or with the child pornographers”. That statement got the attention of all of Canada, and the immediate and appropriate backlash forced the Conservatives to back down, to walk away from the bill.

Since that outrageous bill was dropped and Toews was appointed to the Manitoba bench—but that is another story—the current government has introduced other legislation to this House that it says will protect the privacy of Canadians. In fact, the legislation may actually increase spying on Canadians without a warrant. The first example, Bill C-13, is a bill that is aimed at tackling cyberbullying and is expected to expand warrantless disclosure of Internet and cellular subscriber information to law enforcement agencies. Another example is Bill S-4, the digital privacy act, which would extend the authority to disclose subscriber information without a warrant to private organizations, not just law enforcement agencies.

The government has a bad habit of doing through the back door what it cannot do through the front door. The current government also has some hypocritical tendencies. On the one hand, the Minister of Industry argued that the long form census was intrusive, so the Conservatives eliminated it. On the other hand, this administration has no qualms and sees nothing wrong with invading the private information of Canadians and not telling them about what it is doing. It has repeatedly introduced legislation that would make it easier for Conservatives to snoop on Canadians.

Here is another example of hypocrisy. This country's information watchdog has said that it has been flooded with complaints that the current Conservative government is too often citing security in order to withhold documents requested under the Access to Information Act. The Conservatives are using the security excuse to withhold public information at the same time that the floodgates are open on the personal information and security of Canadians.

We live in an age where technology is advancing at an incredible pace and rate. Yet, the Privacy Act that is meant to protect the privacy of Canadians and keep government accountable has not been updated since 1983. That was before the Internet, Google, email, Facebook, and Twitter. Another act, the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act, has not been updated since 2000, also before social media was born.

New Democrats believe that privacy laws should be modernized. We also believe they should be strengthened, not weakened, to better protect the personal information of Canadians. We also believe we can pursue bad guys and throw the book at them without treating law-abiding Canadians like criminals and violating their rights.

I will end with words from Edward Snowden, the former U.S. intelligence contractor, who said last week that state surveillance today is a euphemism for mass surveillance. He said:

It's no longer based on the traditional practice of targeted taps based on some individual suspicion of wrongdoing. It covers phone calls, emails, texts, search history, what you buy, who your friends are, where you go, who you love.

In so many ways, the Internet and social media are the new frontier. They are still the new frontier. It is our duty to ensure that laws and security do not fall to Big Conservative Brother.

Opposition Motion—Safeguarding of Personal InformationBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1:50 p.m.

Calgary Centre-North Alberta

Conservative

Michelle Rempel ConservativeMinister of State (Western Economic Diversification)

Mr. Speaker, let me start by saying that Canadian privacy is something that we should all be very concerned about as parliamentarians. I certainly am.

However, what we are talking about today is basic subscriber information, and that is defined as name, address, telephone number, email address, or IP address. It is not the content of their communications.

What is this information used for? It is used by authorities for things like investigating Internet fraud or other online crimes, notifying next of kin after a traffic accident, addressing suicide threats over crisis lines, returning stolen property to rightful owners, or investigating threats posted on or sent over the Internet.

Given the definition of basic subscriber information and what it is used for, I wonder if my colleague can name, succinctly, with one word, one other jurisdiction in any western country that needs a warrant to obtain this information.

Opposition Motion—Safeguarding of Personal InformationBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1:55 p.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Mr. Speaker, I do take the member up on the first point that she made. All Canadians should be concerned about privacy. All Canadians may be concerned about it, but the Conservative government is definitely not concerned.

I mentioned two bills, Bill C-13, the bill aimed at attacking cyberbullying, and Bill S-4, the digital privacy act. Both of these bills expand warrantless disclosure of Internet or cellular subscriber information to law enforcement.

There is no oversight. The Conservative government does not have a grip on the laws of social media.

Opposition Motion—Safeguarding of Personal InformationBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, it is important to recognize that with the phenomenal growth in technology, particularly in the whole Internet area, Canadians are becoming more concerned about identity theft and privacy.

With respect to the issue we are debating here today, numerous companies were requested to provide information to agencies, but we do not know which agencies per se. We do know that approximately 750,000 Canadians were affected in one year. We do not know who their private information, such as name, address, phone number and email address, was provided to. We do not really know what happened with that information once it was collected.

Does my colleague not think that this is something the government itself should be taking more seriously? Would it not want to get more information as to what is happening to the information being requested? Would it not want to know the circumstances around which that information is being collected, and so much more?

Opposition Motion—Safeguarding of Personal InformationBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1:55 p.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Mr. Speaker, when the private information on 750,000 Canadians is released and the government has no policies or procedures governing the release of that private information, even if it is a name, phone number, or address, that is obviously a problem that needs to be addressed.

Opposition Motion—Safeguarding of Personal InformationBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1:55 p.m.

NDP

Marc-André Morin NDP Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Mr. Speaker, if I understand correctly, if the Conservatives had their way, then perhaps even a mayor could request information on someone. In that case, we would not have to worry about Big Brother so much as Big Mayor. Indeed, if a mayor can have access to the name and address of the owner of a compromising video in order to rip his head off, then we really have a problem.

I would like my colleague to say a few words about that.

Opposition Motion—Safeguarding of Personal InformationBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

1:55 p.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Mr. Speaker, the member brought forward a good example about being worried about “Big Mayor”, but all Canadians are more concerned about Big Conservative Brother. This comes back to having no policy and no procedure in place with respect to the release of information, from telecom companies to government departments. We need procedure and we need policy.

Public Heroes AwardsStatements By Members

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, on April 23, I was pleased to attend the 2014 Intercultural Dialogue Institute's GTA Public Heroes Awards ceremony, in support of the brave men and women who serve our communities in police, fire, and EMS services.

As the spouse of a Toronto firefighter and the daughter of a retired Toronto police officer, it was an honour to participate in the event and to present the first lifetime achievement award to Chief Mike Ewles, Durham Regional Police Service.

In addition to this award, I would like to acknowledge all recipients: from Toronto EMS and York Region EMS, Glen Gillies and Chris Spearen; from Toronto Fire Services and Central York Fire Services, Jeffrey David and Shaun Mitchell; and from Toronto, Durham and York Regional police services, Stephen Hicks, Terry Rayner, and Kolin Alexander.

As well, a special honorary award was given in memory of John Zivcic, Toronto Police Service.

I invite all members of the House to join me in honouring these remarkable individuals and thanking them for their service to our communities.

Animal WelfareStatements By Members

2 p.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Mr. Speaker, keeping our food safe is a basic obligation of government.

However, there is no credibility to the claim that horse meat in Canada is safe. Unlike the cattle and pork industry, horses are not raised or inspected from birth in an agriculture industry with an intention to produce food for humans.

Due to the nature of the equine industry, the majority of horses in North America are administered with drugs throughout their lives that are toxic to humans. No safe withdrawal periods have been set for many equine drugs, such as wormers, fly sprays, and anti-inflammatories such as phenylbutazone.

I would never risk feeding horse meat to my family and friends. According to Canadian, U.S., and EU regulations, any administration of unapproved or prohibited drugs renders a horse's meat unfit for food, regardless of whether or not residue testing comes up negative.

My bill, Bill C-571, would make horse meat safe, by requiring a lifetime record of medications for horses that are sent to slaughter. I urge my colleagues to help me get this bill to committee for a thorough debate on this important food safety matter.

MothersStatements By Members

2 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Hillyer Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, I had a great kindergarten teacher, but I can honestly say that everything I ever needed to know to be successful in life, I learned from my mother.

She taught by example. She taught by instruction. She taught through love and patience. I have found these same qualities of selflessness, compassion, hard work, laughter, and love, in my wife, the mother of my four children.

The most important thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother and to teach them to treat her with the utmost respect and reverence.

Violence against women is not compatible with respect for mothers. True honour and respect for mothers translates into respect for girls and women, daughters and wives.

I stand today to honour the two most important women in my life, my mother and my wife.

Saint-Luc-de-Vincennes ParishStatements By Members

2 p.m.

Liberal

Lise St-Denis Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Mr. Speaker, in 1864, before Confederation, the Saint-Luc-de-Vincennes parish was established in Mauricie, one of the most beautiful regions in Quebec. The agricultural traditions of the Les Chenaux area have been handed down in the village, which is now facing the challenges of the 21st century.

The pioneers understood the importance of putting down roots to make this country prosper. The years passed, bringing the turmoil of economic crises and the excitement of political change. However, the village has continued to uphold rural values.

We salute the people who established Saint-Luc-de-Vincennes and also those who, today, are committed to maintaining its vitality and values. Municipal officials, church officials, community stakeholders, entrepreneurs and farmers all play a key role in ensuring the prosperity of the municipality.

Ironworks DistilleryStatements By Members

2 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Mr. Speaker, Ironworks is a micro-distillery located in the old port of Lunenburg, on Nova Scotia's historic south shore. It was founded in 2009 by Pierre Guevremont and Lynne MacKay.

The name Ironworks comes from the 1893 heritage blacksmith shop, Walters, that the distillery is housed in. Ironworks is producing rum, vodka, and brandy where blacksmiths once produced everything from marine hardware to axes.

At this year's World Drink Awards, announced in London, United Kingdom, Ironworks Distillery walked away with their hands full. Ironworks' Bluenose dark rum was named the world's best dark rum for 2014. Ironworks' Pear Eau DeVie won the world's best brandy and best fruit brandy. The company's apple brandy received the world's best apple brandy and best design.

In Nova Scotia, we like rum. As a matter of fact, we like it a lot. Now we have the world's best.

Congratulations, Ironworks.

Battle of Ypres and Battle of the AtlanticStatements By Members

2:05 p.m.

NDP

Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Mr. Speaker, over the last two weekends, I have had the pleasure of representing my riding at two important events honouring our veterans and their fallen comrades spanning both world wars, the Battle of Ypres during the First World War, the war to end all wars, as it was known then, and the Battle of the Atlantic.

I would like to note that legion 4 in Verdun is the only legion in Canada that still holds ceremonies honouring those who fought and fell in the Battle of Ypres, hosting many Montreal island legions, including legion 127 in Pointe-Saint-Charles, and boasting the proud presence of the piper corps of the Black Watch, the members of the Montreal legions did their comrades proud; so too did the participants of yesterday's ceremonies at the Battle of the Atlantic.

I was proud to represent my riding and the NDP and stand with our veterans. I was proud to let them know that they matter.

Canadian Mental Health WeekStatements By Members

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise in the House today to bring awareness to the Canadian Mental Health Association's 63rd Annual Mental Health Week. First introduced in 1951, Canadian Mental Health Week has been raising awareness of mental illness and offers Canadians practical ways to maintain and improve their mental health or support their recovery from mental illness.

Canadian Mental Health Week is an annual national event that takes place during the first week in May to encourage Canadians to learn, talk, reflect, and engage with others on all issues relating to mental health. We all have mental health, just as we all have physical health, but we must remember that mental health is more than the absence of mental illness. It is a state of well-being.

I encourage all Canadians to use this week to reflect on their own mental health or take advantage of the Canadian Mental Health Association's online mental health check to see if they are at risk.

100th Anniversary of Pitt MeadowsStatements By Members

May 5th, 2014 / 2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to mark the 100th Anniversary of the city of Pitt Meadows. Idyllically located between the Fraser, Pitt, and Alouette Rivers with spectacular mountains to the north, Pitt Meadows offers easy access to downtown Vancouver while providing one of the most naturally beautiful places to live.

However, the best thing about this small but vibrant city is the people who care about one another and who have made Pitt Meadows a thriving community. That was clearly on display at the centennial celebration two weekends ago. On the Friday, I was privileged to participate in a re-enactment of the first Pitt Meadows council meeting in 1914 and on Saturday, I attended the Pitt Meadows centennial gala, all of us in 1914 attire, which was an overwhelming success.

I am very proud to represent the city of Pitt Meadows and I ask my colleagues to join me in congratulating Mayor Deb Walters and council and the people of Pitt Meadows as they begin their next 100 years as one of Canada's most livable cities.

International Day of the MidwifeStatements By Members

2:05 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Mr. Speaker, today, the international day of the midwife, I rise to show my support for these dedicated health care professionals. Midwives are primary health care providers who work as part of the health care system in most provinces and territories. They provide care to women during pregnancy, birth, and the postpartum period. Evidence from around the world demonstrates that midwives are essential to improving the lives of mothers and babies. However, only 2% to 5% of women in Canada receive midwifery care services.

We are working with other members of Parliament and midwives organizations to have May 5 recognized as the national day of the midwife here in Canada, a move that would help increase accessibility to midwifery care for all women and families. We should treasure midwives' work by expanding their services and bringing birth as close to home as possible.

I urge my colleagues to join with me in calling for a national day of the midwife.

International Day of the MidwifeStatements By Members

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Mr. Speaker, I too would like to recognize today, May 5, as international day of the midwife, and this year's theme is “Midwives changing the world one family at a time”.

Canada's 1,300 registered midwives provide primary health care and are a vital part of the primary maternity care system. Our Muskoka initiative for maternal, newborn, and child health has helped to train midwives and skilled birth attendants internationally. Increasing women's access to quality midwifery services has been a global focus. For healthy moms and healthy babies, midwives have helped to save millions of lives.

Today, on this international day of the midwife, I ask my colleagues to join me in celebrating midwives here in Canada and midwives around the world, and thanking midwives for the health services they provide.

Music MondayStatements By Members

2:10 p.m.

NDP

Andrew Cash NDP Davenport, ON

Mr. Speaker, I was lucky to have had a phenomenal music education when I went to school. I played the clarinet, saxophone, and the classical guitar, and the benefits of this experience have been immeasurable.

We know that a music education helps young people to learn, nurturing not only the soul but also the mind. Music education is good for the brain. It also helps build confidence, focus, discipline, communication skills, and empathy. It helps young people to see the world in a broader way. Perhaps, most importantly, it nurtures stronger communities. However, access to a music education should not be left to just luck and chance.

Fewer kids get any type of music training, and these programs are among the first to go when governments cut education budgets. This is the wrong way to go for our kids and our country.

Music Monday highlights the importance of providing all our children with access to music classes. I am proud and honoured to support this important campaign on behalf of the entire Davenport community in Toronto.

Music MondayStatements By Members

2:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Mr. Speaker, today is the 10th anniversary of Music Monday, a nationwide event that brings together Canadians in celebration of the gift of music in our lives.

This year, a live webcast of simultaneous events across the country will be available. The webcast will feature events taking place in 10 cities across our country representing different music programming from each of our regions. It will also feature performances by school groups, local musicians, and messages from Canadian musicians, politicians, and our country's leaders. The event will also feature a performance by Canadian astronaut Chris Hadfield.

As an important event for Canada and our culture, many prominent Canadians across various fields will be there. I invite everyone to tune in and enjoy this great day as we celebrate the impact of music on Canada and the impact Canadian music has on the world.

Canadian Mental Health WeekStatements By Members

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Mr. Speaker, we all have mental health just as we all have physical health. Mental health is more than an absence of mental illness, it is a state of well-being.

Despite the advances in our understanding of mental illness and improvements in the discussion surrounding it, too many Canadians suffer in silence. People often claim to feel fine when they are not. The result is that approximately seven million Canadians live with mental illness such as anxiety, bipolar disorder, depression, eating disorders, schizophrenia, or post-traumatic stress disorder. Many do not seek treatment because of the stigma and discrimination associated with mental health problems.

This year is the first ever be mindful initiative, and the Canadian Mental Health Association is asking Canadians to tell them how they really feel. Let us all reaffirm our commitment to increasing our understanding of mental illness, increasing access to treatment, and ensuring those who are struggling know they are not alone.

Leader of the Liberal Party of CanadaStatements By Members

2:10 p.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak to the Liberal leader's proposal to legalize marijuana.

At health committee last week, we heard testimony from leading experts, Dr. Harold Kalant, professor of pharmacology at the University of Toronto, and Dr. Meldon Kahan, medical director, Women's College Hospital, that the serious harms and risks associated with marijuana would increase with legalization. We already know from CAMH that marijuana use by 18-29-year-olds has almost doubled to 33.5% since 1996 and that, sadly, the odds of this group experiencing dependence, work problems, and financial, legal, and relationship problems are six times higher than users who are over 30.

That is the Liberal leader's target voting group, and they are mostly unaware of the serious health risks, which include persistent psychosis, chronic respiratory problems, and long-term impact on mental functions.

The Liberal leader should apologize to Canadians for his role as the Pied Piper of pot for our youth and abandon his reckless policy.

EmploymentStatements By Members

2:15 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Speaker, after being ridiculed across the country, the Conservatives have finally stopped using information from Kijiji to calculate their employment data. These new data provide a fresh insight into the Conservatives' employment policies.

The famous skills shortage crisis, which the Conservatives are using as justification to allow the temporary foreign worker program to expand at the expense of jobs for young people, does not exist. The Minister of Employment and Social Development manufactured a crisis to justify hiring cheap labour instead of developing a real immigration policy. Companies had a field day with it. When the Conservatives are giving them permission to exploit foreign workers, why not?

One would think that the Prime Minister would crack down on this problem to rectify the situation. Instead, he seems to be too busy attacking the Supreme Court over yet another chapter in his book of tall tales.

The NDP believes that Canadians deserve better. They deserve a government that will create jobs here for people from here.