House of Commons Hansard #107 of the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was veterans.

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(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Vote #221

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I declare the motion carried.

The House will now resume with the remaining business under routine proceedings under the rubric “motions”.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

moved:

That it be an instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs that, during its consideration of Bill C-27, An Act to amend the Public Service Employment Act (enhancing hiring opportunities for certain serving and former members of the Canadian Forces), the Committee be granted the power to expand the scope of the Bill in order to allow members of the RCMP to qualify for the priority hiring program.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to speak about this important veterans and RCMP veterans issue. I would like to say right at the beginning that I am very fortunate to be sharing my time with the extraordinary member of Parliament for Châteauguay—Saint-Constant.

The government shut down the debate on the environment, and it seems to want to shut down the debate on veterans. The Conservatives should actually be listening attentively.

An RCMP veteran named Eric Rebiere, from Bath, Ontario, said yesterday that the government is discriminating against veterans by offering different groups of them different benefits packages. The article, which has been carried across the country, says the following: “I feel like a second-class veteran”. This is an ex-Mountie speaking.

I am just going to read for the record the article itself. It is from Kingston, Ontario, and is dated yesterday. It states:

A retired Kingston-area RCMP officer is calling for the federal government to stop what he calls "discrimination" between different groups of veterans. Eric Rebiere, whose 24-year career in the federal police force ended in 2006—

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, if you could get some order in this House, it would be appreciated.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I know we just had a vote, and sometimes it takes a few minutes to clear out the room. However, we are on to another item of business. For those of us who need to carry on conversations with a colleague, it would be more respectful to the member speaking to the House if they carried on those conversations outside the chamber.

The hon. member for Burnaby—New Westminster.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I think it would be more respectful to veterans and to former RCMP officers as well.

Eric Rebiere, whose 24-year career in the federal police force ended in 2006, two years after being diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder after taking part in NATO policing missions in Croatia and Kosovo, said the government should have one standard for all people who served in military operations, including RCMP officers who volunteered for policing missions.“They have created sub-classes of veterans, and that is discriminatory under the (Veteran) Charter”, Rebiere said. “To say we are not veterans is an insult”.

At a rally on Parliament Hill earlier this month, Rebiere spoke about how the RCMP has for more than a century participated in Canada's military ventures. Like other retired RCMP officers, Rebiere is covered by the Pension Act and receives monthly payments, but can't access many of the programs the Canadian Forces veterans have.

Eric Rebiere pointed to Section 4 of the Department of Veterans Affairs Act, which requires the ministry to be responsible for “the care, treatment, or re-establishment in civil life of any person who served in the Canadian Forces” and “of any person who has otherwise engaged in pursuits relating to war”.

What we have also found among veterans themselves is great support among veterans organizations that have felt often under attack by the government. We have seen the closing of so many veterans offices that the cutbacks in services to veterans have been quite appalling. I know on this side of the House that particularly the member for Châteauguay—Saint-Constant and the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore have been at the forefront in standing and saying that it is unacceptable. What we need to do is put in place a full array of services for our veterans, but that is not what is happening, and veterans are aware of that.

Even at the Royal Canadian Legion's Dominion Convention in Edmonton on Tuesday, members voted unanimously to amend the Legion's definition of a veteran to include RCMP members and peace officers who serve in special duty areas. There is support from the veterans organizations themselves to say that veterans organizations should include RCMP veterans.

What the NDP motion of instruction is stating is that we instruct the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs “that, during its consideration of Bill C-27, an Act to amend the Public Service Employment Act (enhancing hiring opportunities for certain serving and former members of the Canadian Forces), the Committee be granted the power to expand the scope of the Bill in order to allow members of the RCMP to qualify for the priority hiring program”.

This is no small thing. As Mr. Rebiere has said so eloquently, RCMP veterans are treated even worse than veterans by the government. It is an appalling state. Just two weeks ago, as I was leaving Parliament Hill to go to the airport to take a flight home, I came across a group of Canadian veterans standing at a table in front of Parliament Hill on Wellington Street. They were selling T-shirts to raise funds for their services. Look at that picture for just a moment. Because of the Conservatives' slashing and cutting of veterans' services, we have veterans selling T-shirts to try to provide services.

These are people who put their lives on the line for Canada. These are people who have said that they are willing to do anything to reinforce and defend Canadian democracy, yet Conservatives are forcing them to sell T-shirts to provide for services. I can think of nothing more despicable and nothing more hypocritical than the Conservative government's actions in the cutbacks to veterans' services and the closure of veterans' services offices right across this country. The hallmark of the government is treating our veterans with disrespect, and we see that constantly.

They are willing to be there when there is a photo-op. They are not willing to be there when it counts, which is where the NDP is every day in the House of Commons fighting for veterans and saying that veterans have the right to be treated with due respect by the Conservatives and have the right to a full array of services when they have been willing to put their lives on the line for their country.

In my riding there is a veterans hospital, George Derby Centre. It is another one of the veterans hospitals that have been subject to cutbacks in the services offered to veterans. I see veterans regularly. Some of them are my friends. When I see the cutbacks being put in place and the services not being offered to the same extent they were even a few years ago, it saddens me.

That is why New Democrats are saying today that we want to engage in a vigorous debate, rather than having the debate shut down, as we just saw happen in the debate on the environment. My seat mate, the member for Halifax, spoke very eloquently about the environment. We wanted to engage the government on the environment, and the government said no, it was not going to talk about the environment in the House of Commons.

Now we have a debate on veterans' services and on expanding the scope of Bill C-27 to allow members of the RCMP to qualify for a priority hiring program. Our hope is that instead of the government shutting down debate, which is the only thing it seems to be able to do these days, it will actually engage in what is an important debate.

Mr. Rebiere was very clear that what is needed is the provision of services for RCMP veterans that match the services offered to veterans. New Democrats go even further. We would say that the services offered to veterans need to be expanded and enhanced, and the cutbacks have to stop. It is fair to say that this motion of instruction, if Conservatives are going to be consistent in what they have been saying, should receive the support of the Conservative members of the House so that they provide RCMP veterans and veterans with the full array of services that should be the entitlement of those who have been willing to put their lives on the line for their country.

When the bill was first introduced, New Democrats said that Bill C-27 simply does not go far enough. It overlooks entire groups of veterans. We thought that in principle, it was a good start, but that is only a first step in providing the full array of services that need to be provided to veterans in this country. We are saying today that we indeed need to expand the purview of Bill C-27 so that RCMP officers are included.

Eric Rebiere, a 24-year veteran of the RCMP, says that he feels like a second-class veteran. When there are veterans outside Parliament Hill selling T-shirts to try to provide some semblance of service because of the cutbacks by the government in terms of veterans' services, it is fair to say that veterans need to be treated better. That includes RCMP veterans. That is why we are offering the motion of instruction today. We hope it will have the support of both sides of the House so that RCMP veterans are no longer treated like second-class veterans and are included within the scope of Bill C-27.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Mr. Speaker, the government knows it has let go, either through attrition or outright dismissal, some 47,000 employees from the public service of Canada. Conservatives know that there is a freeze in hiring right now in the federal public service. They know that their existing bill does not meet the same criteria as the bill in the United States, which allows for more preparation and training not just for public service jobs but for private sector opportunities, where so much of the growth is in Canada.

Can the member help Canadians understand why the government would persist in putting forward what is clearly an incomplete bill?

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Ottawa South for his question. I have worked with him often in committee and I quite like his approach when it comes to legislation. He is aware that this government has botched more pieces of legislation than any other government in Canadian history. It has had more pieces of legislation thrown on the floor of the House of Commons and subject to a record number of closure motions.

I think the member would perhaps try to defend it, but the former Liberal government, which had nearly 70 motions of closure in the course of its mandate, pales in comparison. This government has had 75, which is why it is being condemned by a number of journalists, saying the government simply does not believe in democratic debate.

However, the problem is this. The government has had more bills rejected, more shoddy product quality, because the bills it puts in the House of Commons are rejected, certainly by the courts. There has been a record number of rejections by the court. They have also been rejected by Canadians, as my colleague mentioned. The reality is that the government has had to produce more pieces of remedial legislation. That is a product recall. It botches the first bill it puts on the floor, then it has to introduce another bill to fix the errors in the first bill.

Therefore, my answer to the question from the member for Ottawa South is quite simple. The government does not respect the legislative process and that is why it has botched so many bills. In this case, it means that veterans are going to be more poorly served because the government did not do its homework.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:25 a.m.

Vaughan Ontario

Conservative

Julian Fantino ConservativeMinister of Veterans Affairs

Mr. Speaker, I respect the theme of my colleague's comments about looking after our veterans and RCMP officers, but I do take issue with the truthfulness of some of the comments he made about supposedly closing offices all over the country. These issues have been dealt with on the basis of expanding the number of services.

His comments about our cutting back funding for veterans issues are totally untrue. Since 2006, we have added some $5 billion, new dollars, to veterans program services and support for veterans and their families. The rhetoric is really inflammatory when we misinform, miscommunicate, and also convey false information to those who are most vulnerable and most affected by some of these issues pertinent to veterans, their families, and their well-being.

I will be as crude as he has been with respect to commentary. I would suggest that, if he and his party pay back the $1.17 billion in respect to the misappropriated funds, we could probably do a lot more for veterans and the RCMP.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:25 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

The hon. member for Burnaby—New Westminster, you have about 45 seconds.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I have 45 seconds to say this is exactly why veterans say they are being treated with such disrespect. That statement comes from the minister who, a week and a half ago, was running away from Jennifer Migneault, who just wanted to speak to him about the services that her husband, who is a serving member of the Canadian military, was not receiving. All she wanted to do was speak with him, and he ran away. That shows both the arrogance of the government and also its complete lack of respect for veterans.

In New Westminster, right outside city hall, are the names of two members of my family who gave their lives for our country. I believe, as do all New Democrats, that veterans should be treated with respect, and it should start with this minister. The minister should be—

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:25 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:25 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

Order, please. The hon. member for Châteauguay—Saint-Constant.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would really like to thank my colleague from Burnaby—New Westminster for moving this motion in the House.

Not that long ago, we voted on a bill that completely overlooked RCMP veterans, who should be included and treated as such. Unfortunately, they are too often forgotten. They were once again completely overlooked in Bill C-27. That was one of our misgivings about that bill. I would like to thank the hon. member for Burnaby—New Westminster for moving this motion that we had been discussing for a few days.

Eric Rebiere, an RCMP veteran with 26 years of service, spoke out during an interview with Elliot Ferguson from QMI Agency. He said he was outraged at how services were provided to him and that the government was not treating retired RCMP officers as full-fledged veterans.

I would like to read my colleague's motion in order to explain it to those watching at home:

That it be an instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs that, during its consideration of Bill C-27, An Act to amend the Public Service Employment Act (enhancing hiring opportunities for certain serving and former members of the Canadian Forces), the Committee be granted the power to expand the scope of the Bill in order to allow members of the RCMP to qualify for the priority hiring program.

RCMP veterans have been completely left out of this bill. This huge gap shows that this bill is incomplete. I am unhappy with another aspect of this bill, which is that it has created even more classes of veterans. There are World War II and Korean War veterans who have access to health care still for some time.

Ste. Anne's Hospital, near my riding, is destined to be transferred to the province, when it provided very good services to World War II and Korean War veterans. They are obviously aging, and there are fewer and fewer of them. Why not change the eligibility criteria and open this hospital to all veterans? That is what veterans groups are requesting. They say they are all veterans who served under the same flag.

Why always make classes of veterans who do not have access to the same services and the same health care? It is completely unacceptable that RCMP veterans have been completely left out of Bill C-27. The government should have considered them and stopped this tendency to create classes of veterans. We support the veterans ombudsman, who has been asking for years that the government stop creating classes of veterans and instead place them in a single veterans group. That is the approach we want to take in the House. The official opposition is asking the government to move in that direction, as all veterans and the ombudsman are requesting.

Mr. Rebiere says that he is absolutely outraged at the way services are provided to RCMP veterans, because they are full-fledged veterans. We are asking that they not be left out, which is what this bill does. They have been completely forgotten, which is why the motion by my colleague from Burnaby—New Westminster asks that they be included.

The motion asks to find a way to include RCMP veterans and allow them to qualify for the public service priority hiring program, just as other veterans groups have been included. Mr. Rebiere is left with the impression that the government does not consider retired RCMP officers as veterans. He says he is completely outraged, and rightly so, at being treated like this and never getting the same services as other veterans groups.

I will read an excerpt from the article. I think it is very important.

A retired Kingston-area RCMP officer is calling for the federal government to stop what he calls "discrimination" between different groups of veterans.

Eric Rebiere, whose 24-year career in the federal police force ended in 2006, two years after being diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder after taking part in NATO policing missions in Croatia and Kosovo, said the government should have one standard for all people who served in military operations, including RCMP officers who volunteered for policing missions.

The ombudsman said, and Mr. Rebiere echoed this as well, that RCMP veterans do not get the same services and that is absolutely disgraceful.

To come back to the subject, Bill C-27 was already incomplete since it followed Bill C-11, for which we had only one or two hours of debate. That bill was incomplete and dropped and then was replaced with this one. We think that Bill C-27 is also incomplete since it completely excludes RCMP officers.

For an officer like Mr. Rebiere, having access to public service jobs could be very beneficial, which is understandable. He could continue to serve his country in the public service. This would be especially beneficial to those with post-traumatic stress disorder. These are people who are no longer able to work in the military or the federal police service. If they could bring their expertise and skills to the public service, that would be very beneficial. If they also had access to the public service priority hiring program, they could pursue their career.

That perhaps could have been the case for Mr. Rebiere. The public service actually has a number of jobs for our soldiers and also for RCMP officers, who have been left out of this bill. We are asking the government to agree to our request and find a way to put RCMP officers on the priority list, which, for the time being, is for veterans only. We are hopeful that this bill will pass and come into force very soon. It would be completely unacceptable to exclude RCMP officers. They must also be included so that they can continue their careers. Many are forced to continue serving in the RCMP, without being totally employable and able to effectively serve the public as RCMP officers. They could continue to do so in the public service.

This is an entirely reasonable request. We are asking the government to vote in favour of this important motion and find a way to also include RCMP officers. In future bills, we will also ask the government to try to limit the number of groups of veterans to only one. We really believe in having only one group of veterans instead of creating divisions and more classes of veterans, as Bill C-27 does. Let us have only one group of veterans. They all served their country in the same way, so why give certain benefits to one group of veterans and forget about the others? That is completely unacceptable. It is fair to treat all groups of veterans equitably and in the same way.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his speech.

First, I would like to speak about cuts. The minister said that there were no cuts, but that is not true. The head office of the Department of Veterans Affairs is located in Charlottetown. This office now has far fewer employees to serve veterans, and the same is true of other offices across the country. It is completely false to say that no cuts have been made.

The question I want to pose is with respect to the view of the government with respect to RCMP veterans. We know there was a class action lawsuit launched by Dennis Manuge against the government with respect to the clawbacks of their disability benefits. We know that at the same time that class action lawsuit was commenced, a companion lawsuit was commenced by RCMP veterans who were in the exact same situation.

The Conservatives settled the case with Dennis Manuge after they lost at the federal court. They refused for months to include the RCMP vets in that settlement and made the them wait for several more months before finally bringing them to the table.

What does it say about the view of the government with respect to the status of RCMP vets in the eyes of the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Government of Canada?

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his intelligent question and comments.

I have the pleasure of being a member of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, with the member for Charlottetown. He is very knowledgeable about veterans issues, and he made intelligent comments about the cuts to Veterans Affairs Canada. The number of case managers is being cut, and the people who are left in those positions are being given more files. If memory serves, in the recent past, case managers used to handle 35 cases and now they handle about 40. They are responsible for more files and they have less time for veterans. They also have less time to figure out which services veterans are entitled to. In my opinion, veterans have not been receiving very good service in recent years.

I will now respond to the question about the RCMP. RCMP veterans are treated differently than other classes of veterans. The veterans in the class action law suit initiated by Dennis Manuge won their case, and the government agreed to reduce the disability benefits of those who are receiving retirement pensions. RCMP officers are in the same class. They have also launched a class action suit. However, the government does not want to apply the same rule. RCMP officers continue to be the victims of discrimination, when a settlement was reached in the Dennis Manuge case. This is further proof that the government is treating veterans who were members of the RCMP differently than veterans in other classes. The government is not treating all of our veterans in the same way, and that is completely disgraceful.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe NDP Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech.

In his speech, he mentioned Ste. Anne's Hospital. We have worked together on matters related to this hospital. This is a very important hospital, located on the West Island of Montreal, between his riding and mine.

Last weekend, I met with an employee of the hospital. The employees are very concerned about the situation. This is a clear illustration of the government's lack of respect for veterans. Veterans are not being accepted at this hospital, even though we are told that the hospital will shut down services because there are not enough clients. People who would like to have access to the hospital deplore the situation, just as current veterans do. Our veterans are afraid of losing the services they are entitled to.

I thank my colleague for showing his solidarity with the employees and users of Ste. Anne's Hospital.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her question and for the work that she does for veterans and the employees of Ste. Anne's Hospital, who are indeed very concerned about the situation.

Three years ago, the government announced that the hospital would be transferred to the province, under the pretext that there are fewer and fewer veterans who have access to the hospital, given that it is reserved for World War II and Korean War veterans. Instead, the criteria should be changed to open this hospital to all veterans who might need hospital services.

In fact, this is an excellent hospital, and I have had the pleasure of visiting it. Veterans receive wonderful, outstanding services there. However, since it is half-empty, the criteria could be changed so that those spots would be available to any groups of veterans who need long-term care. This would be a good alternative to transferring the hospital to the province.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:45 a.m.

Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre Saskatchewan

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

I move:

That the debate be now adjourned.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:45 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:45 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:45 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:45 a.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Veterans AffairsRoutine Proceedings

11:45 a.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

All those opposed will please say nay.