House of Commons Hansard #6 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was allies.

Topics

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Madam Speaker, I welcome you to your new position. I would also like to welcome the member for Etobicoke Centre and extend a hand of invitation. I look forward to him joining our Canada-Ukraine parliamentary friendship association. I am sure that he will want to join those activities.

The Liberal government has committed that it will be withdrawing its fighter jets from Syria, but we still have not clearly heard what the timetable is on that withdrawal. I wonder if the member could provide clarification on that, and also advise the House what actions are being taken to stem the flow of arms and funds to ISIL. Our party has been very outspoken since the bombing began in Syria, and before, when there was the activity in Iraq and around the world. We have continuously campaigned to have Canada sign the arms trade treaty.

Can the member update us on the actions by the government in that direction?

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Madam Speaker, I will certainly take up the hon. member's offer to join the committee.

With regard to the questions posed, our government will take the time necessary to develop a strategy that will make a difference on the ground and that will be a robust part of the allied war effort. I am sure that in due course, we will all be aware of what that strategy entails.

With regard to the funding, recruitment, and international character of this particular Daesh problem, we live in a global village connected by the Internet. One of the problematic parts of this, as I stated in my speech, was how insidious that reach can be. Part of what we do will probably entail talking to providers and platforms about how they can make sure that their channels are not used by groups with jihadist terrorist intent.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

Madam Speaker, I am honoured to rise to speak on my first debate in the 42nd Parliament.

Before I begin, I want to take this opportunity to thank my constituents of Calgary Forest Lawn and Calgary East for electing me for the seventh time, and for having put their trust in me again. I want to say a very big thanks to them.

I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member for South Surrey—White Rock.

The motion today is to continue our engagement to fight ISIL. This is now an international human rights issue. Those who sponsor and carry out these horrendous crimes against humanity must be brought before the International Criminal Court and brought to justice, in the same way as the Nuremberg trials were held. However, first we have to defeat them.

Our previous Conservative government brought this current engagement to Parliament and sought its approval. I have participated in numerous debates on this issue of tackling ISIS in this House.

I listened to the Minister of National Defence, and I am not convinced he is on the right path. We are downgrading our engagement by removing the air force and stopping Canadian air strikes.

During debates in the previous Parliament, we found support for this mission from Canadians and from many Liberals, as well as our allies in the international community. Not surprisingly, of course, we never got any support from the NDP.

However, to see the government trying to follow the same NDP logic by downgrading the fight against injustice is doing an injustice, not only to the victims of the terrorist group, but also to future generations who would fall victim to this terrorist group. Paris comes to mind. I can say from experience that when strong action is not taken to fight injustice, its consequences can be devastating.

After the fall of Saddam Hussein, the G-8 and neighbours of Iraq held three conferences, in Egypt, Istanbul and Kuwait. I represented Canada at all three of these Iraq meetings. It was an attempt by the international community to stabilize and rebuild Iraq. We all pledged money and help for Iraq, but the Maliki government did not take it seriously, and our international partners, including us, did not demand stronger accountability from his government.

This resulted in the continued weakening of the Iraqi government, to the point where this terror group, ISIL, filled the gap. The results were massacres, rape, killings, and much suffering. The lesson we have to take from this is to take strong action when a threat arises.

Today's motion is asking the government to ensure that our engagement is not downgraded. Canadian air strikes have been successful in engaging the terrorists. Why the government wants to stop this is beyond our understanding. Only today reports say that the financial chief of ISIS was killed in air strikes. This is a big blow to ISIS.

The question Canadians are asking is this. Are the Liberals serious in fighting ISIS, or are they talking about token support? They keep talking about this robust engagement that is going to come. They keep talking as if there is a vacuum right now in the war against the terrorists. The Liberals are forgetting that Canada has been engaged, not only on humanitarian grounds but in training peshmerga. I have heard Liberals talking about training peshmerga. They seem to have forgotten the fact that has been going on, through the motion that was passed by the previous Conservative government.

I do not understand where this robust thing is going to come from. It is already there. Why does the government want to take away what is already a successful engagement against this terrorist group? It is beyond anybody's understanding.

I know the defence minister served in Afghanistan. However, I was on the House of Commons special committee on Afghanistan, which was there to oversee our mission in Afghanistan, recommended by former Liberal foreign minister John Manley. I travelled with the committee to Afghanistan and saw our operations first-hand.

The Taliban is still a threat today. Only yesterday it attacked the Kandahar airport, where over 50 people are now confirmed dead.

Have we abandoned Afghanistan? No. However, the presence of American forces is what is keeping Afghanistan safe today. It could easily revert to becoming another region where terror and terrorists reign. Therefore, the government must engage with ISIS to destroy it, before it destroys us.

Britain went through a debate as to whether it would perform air strikes. Because of the threat posed by ISIS, it has now changed its mind and is engaging in air strikes.

Let us look at France, Britain, the U.S.A., and the other neighbouring countries, like Jordan and Iran, that engaged in air strikes to stop ISIL because they recognized it as a threat.

We say that we will stop it, and then we say that we will find a robust and better way of doing it. I have heard others say today that we should let the others carry the burden and we can stand on the sidelines.

When we go to the Remembrance Day parades and talk to the veterans who have fought for the freedom of this country and I listen to their stories, it is evident that the reason they have put their lives on the line is for our freedom and our country's freedom. They went out and they fought. They did not run away like this Liberal government wants us to run away from the air strikes. It is beyond my understanding.

Everyone talks about the great job being done by our air force. Our armed forces are well trained. When the previous Liberal government was in power, it cut the military expenditures, to the point where our armed forces were no longer effective, creating a period of darkness. The Conservative government invested in the armed forces, and today it is doing an excellent job in Iraq and wherever else it is deployed. We are all proud of the excellent work they have been doing, including the members on the Liberal side.

Therefore, I do not understand why the Liberals want to pull out. Time after time, I have heard the argument that we should provide humanitarian assistance. If there is no security on the ground, what is the point of humanitarian assistance? Where do they think it will go? It will not go to the people who need it. First and foremost, there is a need for security, and that security can only come if we take up the fight. That is why this motion is very apt. If the Liberals do not support it, so be it. However, Canadians will support this motion, and we will stand to fight against ISIL.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Madam Speaker, I appreciate my colleague's comments.

ISIL is not waging a conventional war. The Conservative opposition seems to be fixated on air strikes as the ultimate tool for countering the horrors committed by ISIL.

Would my colleague tell us how the CF-18s can prevent recruitment in western countries of radicalized youth who commit crimes in our major cities? How can the CF-18s prevent massacres like the one in Paris?

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

Madam Speaker, I agree with the member that air strikes are not the only way to defeat ISIL. It is only one way of weakening ISIL, not defeating it, but weakening it so that it is powerless.

Do members remember the town of Kobani, which ISIL was going to take over and the whole community was under threat, or the Yazidis, who were massacred by the ISIL group in that state and the large graves that were found? Do you not think we should go to fight and stop all of these refugees from coming out of there? The government has just taken 25,000 refugees out of the million refugees that are over there. I have visited those camps in Turkey and everywhere else. That is why it is important to take on ISIL and fight it, so that the minorities are safe in their own country and in that country. That is why it is important and why I say it is one of the tools that we need to go ahead and fight ISIL.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I know the member has been in the House for quite a few years. I want to remind him to please direct his comments to the Chair and not a specific member in the House.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for North Island—Powell River.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

NDP

Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC

Madam Speaker, I would also like to take this opportunity to congratulate you for sitting in the chair today.

When the member was in the government and committed Canada to this mission, Conservatives did so without providing incremental funding to the armed forces to cover the costs of the mission. Therefore, the forces had to find the money by reallocating money from other departments and programs like the navy. Why was this mission not properly funded when the Conservatives originally committed Canada to it?

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

Madam Speaker, I want to congratulate you as well for being in the chair.

I am pretty surprised about the resources she says were not properly funded. This mission was properly funded. The approval of this mission was done in the House of Commons. There was a debate here and everybody had a chance to speak, and it was very clear that it was absolutely funded. I do not know what she is talking about, that this is not funded.

I hope the Liberal government, before it does anything, will bring it to the House so we can debate this here like the Conservative government did. We are a little concerned. For example, on electoral reform, the Liberals do not want to have a referendum. Therefore, I do not know if they will consult us with this change in their plans.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Madam Speaker, nobody in the House denies the need for humanitarian aid and for diplomacy as two crucial elements in countering the Islamic State. The real issue at play today in this debate is whether the Canadian Armed Forces combat mission should continue against the Islamic State. The Conservatives believe it should.

The Liberal government has said that it should not, and the whole issue here is why that is the case. Many Liberals like Irwin Cotler have long called for a combat mission as a central part of an international coalition response to counter the Islamic State. I cannot believe that all 183 Liberal members are in agreement with the government's position on this and I encourage them to support the motion in front of the House.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

Madam Speaker, very briefly, I agree with him.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to stand in the House on behalf of my riding of South Surrey—White Rock. I congratulate you on being in the chair.

I want to speak to the motion that has been put forward by my hon. colleague.

As former mayor of the city of Surrey, where over 95 languages are spoken and which is home to the largest number of government-assisted refugees in the province of British Columbia, I am well aware of the issues on the ground that the refugees are faced with and the horrific conditions that many have endured.

To this point, the Syrian and Iraqi-based crisis has required a multi-faceted approach, which has been continually supported and maintained by the Conservatives.

I want to go back a bit and talk about the CF-18 fighter jets. In October, 2014, those jets bombed weapons caches, training facilities, critical infrastructure, and command centres. The Canadian Special Operations Forces have trained more than 1,100 soldiers on the ground.

With regard to humanitarian aid for the Iraqi people, the Conservatives, on behalf of Canadians, provided food for almost 2 million people and relief supplies for 1.2 million. In Syria, starting in 2012, we committed $503 million in international humanitarian aid. In addition, we understood the need to identify and deal with the root causes in the country of origin, as well as helping the people who were fleeing the violence. Some 10,000 refugees were processed or in the final stages of being processed when we committed to an additional 10,000 Syrian refugees. We wanted to ensure that there was a more secure and more robust screening process in place due to current global events.

As I stated, this effort to defeat ISIS has to be multi-faceted. That is the only approach that we have ever supported. There are two main points to emphasize. The first is to maintain the air combat mission of the CF-18 fighter jets in the fight against ISIS. The second is to reconfirm our commitment to our allies.

The United Nations Security Council determined that ISIL constituted an unprecedented threat to international peace and security, and further called upon its member states to take all necessary measures to prevent and suppress its terrorist acts on territory under its control in Syria and Iraq.

The foreign affairs minister for the Kurdistan regional government said:

We would like to tell them that the air strikes have been effective, they have helped us a great deal. They have helped save lives...And if it were for us [to decide], we request that to continue.

When President Obama referred to his closest allies as France, Germany, and the United Kingdom, I would suggest that Canada is not back.

From a purely moral perspective, how can we turn our backs on this coalition and our closest allies, including the people still living in Syria and Iraq who face the violence and brutality of ISIS on a daily basis? Let me remind the Liberal government exactly what we have been witness to.

We have seen the recent attacks and murders of innocent people in Paris, Lebanon, and Beirut. We have also been witness to the sheer brutality of ISIS as demonstrated by the beheading of foreign aid workers, journalists from the U.S., U.K., France, Australia, Japan, and 21 Egyptians who were lined up on a beach, and the burning alive of a Jordanian coalition pilot. Most disturbing of all, as pointed out by the member for Calgary Centre-North on Monday, is the genocide of a reported 8,000 Yazidi women and young girls. Thousands of others have been kidnapped, sold and raped.

I am deeply saddened as a Canadian, as a woman, and as a mother that Canada would not stand with her allies and protect these innocent people.

I would like to reinforce this point in a much more personal way.

For over a year, I have been associated with two young Yazidi orphan girls. They were once a family of five. These girls were forced to watch their mother be raped and then shot in the head. They were forced to watch as their father was beheaded and then witnessed their 9-year-old brother crucified. Their home was burned to the ground and their livestock and pets were slaughtered. It was only by a sheer miracle that they managed to escape the chaos and get safely to a refugee camp. No child should have to witness such horror.

I heard the Prime Minister say on Monday “...what we will not do is continue trying to talk about it and give ISIS any free publicity”. That comment frankly is offensive to every man, woman, and child who has been brutalized by ISIS. We have to talk about it and we cannot pretend it does not exist. Nor can we be silent. We need to stand with our allies, maintain the air combat mission of the CF-18 fighter jets, continue the humanitarian aid that we started in 2012, and properly screen and support the refugees coming to Canada in a meaningful way so they can succeed and live in a country that welcomes them.

However, we also need to deal with the root causes in Syria and Iraq, namely, ISIS, because many of those who are fleeing their homeland do not want to leave, but they have no choice.

This is why the motion before the House is so important. As I stated earlier, this has to continue to be a multi-faceted approach, and we cannot and must not be silent on this issue.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Madam Speaker, the hon. member opposite keeps referring to this terrorist death cult as ISIS, Islamic state. Does she believe that this death cult reflects the tenets of Islam? Does she believe that in fact it is a state? If not, why continue using terminology that lends credence and legitimacy to this death cult? Why not refer to it as Daesh, as our allies do.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Madam Speaker, the terminology that has been used is very familiar to those in the general public. We can define it any way we want, but the fact is it is killing hundreds of thousands of people who are fleeing from their country. It is murdering and raping young girls and children. That is what we have to pay attention to.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Madam Speaker, I am glad to see you in the seat.

Last month the UN Security Council urged its members to intensify their efforts to stem the flow of arms and funds to foreign terrorist fights and to prevent and suppress the financing of terrorism. Specifically, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has commented, “Over the longer-term, the biggest threat to terrorists is not the power of missiles – it is the politics of inclusion.” The truth is air strikes are sadly being used as a recruitment tool for ISIL.

Could the member please explain why they believe bombing works, given the many examples we have from the region that bombing does not in fact contribute in any way to a peaceful outcome?

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Madam Speaker, I will answer the member's question in a two-fold way. I totally agree that the financial flow and the weapons need to be addressed as part of the multifaceted approach.

However, I would also say that we look at bombing weapons caches, training facilities, critical infrastructures, and command centres. That is the focus in making sure that we are crippling them in their country of origin where they cannot expand.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Madam Speaker, I listened to the story by the member for South Surrey—White Rock about the horrors that are being visited upon people in Syria and Iraq by the Islamic State. It really struck me that the Liberal Party has long argued for the policy of the responsibility to protect vulnerable persons who are subject to atrocities just like the ones that the member enunciated here in the House of Commons. It also strikes me that it is a classic position of the Liberal Party to say one thing and do another. The Liberal Party has long argued for the responsibility to protect doctrine and yet when atrocities the likes of which we have not seen or witnessed in recent memory are happening on a widespread scale within the Islamic State, it suddenly abandons the policy and no longer believes that military or combat action is necessary to counter this threat and to ensure the protection of these vulnerable persons.

It is something that really struck me when I was listening to the member's speech and I am wondering if she would care to comment.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Madam Speaker, it strikes me as a bit odd as well when I hear the Liberal government talk about the vulnerability of young women and girls and about protecting them when over 8,000 young women and girls have been murdered. I am astounded that the Liberal government would not take a stronger position. In fact, I am ashamed.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

Before resuming debate, it is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Lévis—Lotbinière, international trade; the hon. member for Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, democratic reform.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Madam Speaker, every member of the House certainly recognizes that ISIS is a serious threat to global peace and security and to Canada. New Democrats, like members of all other parties in this House, have condemned in the strongest terms the terrorist acts of ISIS and its violent extremist ideology. We deplore its continued gross, systematic, and widespread abuses of human rights. We not only believe that the international community has an obligation to stop ISIS expansion, to help the refugees in the region, and to fight the spread of violent extremism, but we also believe that Canada should be a leader in these efforts. We welcome the opportunity to have this debate in the House on how best to engage and defeat ISIS. What is disappointing is the very limited range of options being considered by the official opposition in its motion and by the government in its response.

New Democrats have been clear that the current mission is not the right role for Canada. We think it should end. Conservatives remain, perhaps understandably, tied to the current bombing mission. As it was virtually their only concrete response to the ISIS threat as government, so it remains at the heart of their opposition motion today. Leaving aside whether Canada's contribution to the bombing campaign at just 2% to 3% of missions flown was ever anything more than a symbolic effort, one has to ask whether the bombing had any significant impact on the task of undermining or defeating ISIS. At best, it may have slowed ISIS's territorial expansion, but it has not stopped ISIS from administering territory and acting like a state, two crucial factors in its survival and a point I will return to in a moment.

However, as a response to ISIS, the bombing campaign at least had the advantage of suggesting specific actions to achieve a clear goal—a halt to ISIS's expansion—though I would still argue that it fails as a tactic as we have little evidence to show it has been effective in challenging control of territory by ISIS. Moreover, it also fails as a goal since threat from ISIS will not be eliminated even if its expansion is slowed.

The new government's alternative of an expanded training mission to enable local forces to be more effective in combatting ISIS seems at best poorly thought out. It suggests that we can accomplish the goal of eliminating the threat from ISIS with a tactic that at best takes years to accomplish. I know from my own professional experience working in Afghanistan the challenges of trying to create viable local security forces to challenge an insurgent movement.

I went to Afghanistan in 2001 as the policing researcher for a major international human rights organization, having previously worked in conflict zones in Nicaragua, East Timor, the Philippines, and the province of Ambon in Indonesia. Working in these conflict zones, I learned some crucial lessons, including the unlikelihood of success when there is a mismatch between the resources available and the size of a challenge, and also when those being trained neither understand nor share the goals of their trainers. In my case, it seemed particularly futile to talk to police about the importance of evidence collecting and accurate record keeping when the police lacked paper, pens, a copy of their criminal code, and often even literate officers.

I also learned first hand about trainers becoming targets when our organization had bombs placed outside our compound in Kabul, and when our field mission had to leave Mazar-e-Sharif in the north abruptly after death threats to our local driver and translator.

I therefore have a lot of questions about the Liberals' proposed training mission.

What resources is the government prepared to devote to this mission? In Afghanistan, Canada ended up with more than 2,000 trainers in the field, along with a large logistical support organization. When the Prime Minister made an off-hand reference to thousands of trainers, did that indicate where we are heading in Iraq?

Even if training does not inevitably involve outside-the-wire operations, like the kind that tragically cost Corporal Doiron his life in Iraq on March 6, 2015, will not 2,000 to 3,000 Canadians in the field present all too tempting and all too many targets for ISIS? Inevitably, in trying to protect those trainers and their logistical support organizations, do we not risk being drawn into boots-on-the-ground operations?

I would ask the government also, what are the goals of this training mission? Training locals to fight ISIS, while perhaps in and of itself is valuable, is more a tactic than a goal. How will this training in fact accomplish the goal of degrading ISIS in the near term? We all know that progress in training security forces in Afghanistan was painfully slow, despite the great skills and the dedication of the Canadian Forces deployed.

The hon. member for Calgary Forest Lawn made reference earlier to the unfortunate incident in Afghanistan yesterday, where the local security forces, despite years of training and equipment from the west, were unable to protect the airport against temporary seizure by the Taliban, which resulted in more than 50 deaths. Therefore, this training mission must consider the long-term nature of its getting results.

The Liberals' commitment to an enlarged training mission also raises other questions that take me away a bit from the themes of today's motion, but I have to say that I am concerned that the Liberals, like the Conservatives before them, seem to be implying that the Canadian Forces can take on additional responsibilities without a corresponding funding increase.

Having already had to absorb the costs of the bombing mission under the Conservatives without an increase in incremental funding, I question whether the Canadian Forces can absorb the costs of another large mission without impairing their ability to carry out the rest of their mandate. Talk of a leaner military by the Liberals during the campaign, continued talk of a leaner military before we have actually had the promised review of our defence strategy completed, and in the face of taking on new responsibilities in Iraq seems reckless at best.

What are New Democrats advocating if it is neither the Conservative option of more bombing nor the Liberal option of more training? We believe that Canada needs is strategy based on a clear understanding of the nature of ISIS. There is much for us to learn in an article that was published in March of this year in The Atlantic by Graeme Wood. Wood draws our attention to the millennial nature of ISIS, with its ideology that looks forward to an imminent great military confrontation with the west, which will usher in the end of time. We have to understand the mindset of people who are guided by such an ideology and to take seriously the point that confronting this ideology head on with military force may actually feed its myths and fuel its recruiting. For all the many positive suggestions about the benefits of bombing, we know that it has helped recruit foreign fighters to their cause.

As well, Wood notes that the whole legitimacy of ISIS as a caliphate and, therefore, its ability to command loyalty from its followers and its ability to attract foreign fighters comes from its ability to control territory. If it fails as a state, then it loses the mandate granted to it by the prophecy that it holds dear.

If these two propositions are true, that taking ISIS head on militarily may actually be what it wants and if its ability to control territory is what is key to it attracting support—and it seems to me abundantly clear that they are—then the best strategy for eliminating the threat from ISIS may be to deprive it of the legitimacy defined in its own terms while containing it. This kind of strategy is exactly what the UN Security Council called for in its resolutions 2170 and 2199.

Canada could be a leader not only in addressing the desperate humanitarian needs created by the conflict in the region, as we are doing in welcoming Syrian refugees to Canada, but it could also be a leader in a strategy to deprive ISIS of the oxygen it needs to survive. Canada can and should lead the world in cutting off the lifelines of ISIS, the flow of funds, the flow of arms, and the flow of foreign fighters.

On August 15, 2014, the UN Security Council adopted resolution 2170, which lays out a clear action plan calling on the international community to suppress the flow of foreign fighters and to suppress the financing of terrorist acts. On February 12, 2015, resolution 2199 was unanimously adopted by the Security Council. This resolution specifically gives instructions to member states to act, to counter the smuggling of oil and oil products, to ensure that financial institutions prevent ISIS from accessing the international financial system, and to prevent the transfer of arms to ISIS. These two resolutions lay out exactly the kind of leadership role Canada should take up in fighting this threat to global peace and security.

When it comes to financing ISIS, ISIS is still reportedly earning up to $3 million per day from the sale of oil on black markets in the region. That has to be stopped if we are to have any hope of defeating ISIS. Canada could play a lead role by identifying those routes by which ISIS oil enters the regional markets and cutting off those sales. In addition, ISIS continues to receive significant flows of funds from outside sources. Let us track them down and cut them off, even if this may lead to some potential embarrassment for some of those in the region who Canada counts as allies or trade partners.

Let us put pressure on those international financial institutions that manage the international flows of money to cut off the funding for ISIS. When ISIS no longer has the funds to act as a government in the territories it controls or to pay its fighters, then we will have really begun to degrade ISIS.

On the arms trade, not only has Canada failed to lead, but we have in fact been an international laggard under the Conservatives. In 2013, a global Arms Trade Treaty was adopted by the UN General Assembly. This is a treaty with practical mechanisms designed to keep weapons out of the hands of those who would use them to commit war crimes, abuse human rights or engage in organized crime: groups like ISIS.

Canada remains the only NATO country that has refused to sign onto the global Arms Trade Treaty. Our new government needs to move quickly to sign and ratify this treaty and then become a leader in making sure its provisions are enforced.

On foreign fighters, Canada again has failed to take sufficient action. Over the last two years, we have seen communities across Canada reaching out to the federal government asking to work together with the government to implement strategies to protect our youth from ISIS' sophisticated recruitment techniques. The Conservatives never implemented any effective measures to tackle the problem of domestic radicalization, and the new Liberal government failed to include this as a priority in its throne speech.

None of these actions could be seen as Canada backing away from a confrontation with ISIS. Some of these actions, in fact, might inevitably require the use of military force, perhaps using Canadian Forces to seal borders against oil exports or to interdict arms shipments. They undoubtedly require a robust Canadian military equipped with the tools it needs to get these jobs done.

None of these strategies would involve any lesser commitment in terms of resources than the hundreds of millions of dollars already spent on bombing. All of them would be more effective at depriving ISIS of the oxygen it needs to survive than either of the alternatives being put forward by the Conservatives in their motion today, or by the Liberals in their response, proposing a vague training mission.

Our strategy would require the kind of innovative and co-operative leadership on the world stage for which Canada always used to be known. So when we hear the government saying that Canada is back, it has to have that content. We have to be back to leading the world collectively in responding to threats like ISIS. We have to respect the work that was done in the UN Security Council by our allies, the same allies I hear people talking about: the United States, France, and Russia. These are the countries with which we are being asked to co-operate in a military strategy, when in the Security Council they proposed exactly the measures we need to be effective in combatting ISIS.

What we seem to lack here, what we have lacked for the last 10 years, and what we appear to be lacking now is a government with the vision and determination to rise to this challenge. We know that Canadians, both those serving in the Canadian Forces and ordinary Canadians in this country as a whole are ready to take up this challenge.

Again, what we need is a government that will step forward and take the measures that we all know would be much more effective in degrading and defeating ISIS. Without understanding its nature and developing a strategy that responds to that reality, we have little prospect of removing this threat to global peace and security.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank the member for Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke for his speech. I thought he was passionate, and I appreciated the comments.

I understand the Conservative Party position saying that we need to continue the bombing mission. I understand the government position saying that we need to train ground troops because the bombing mission will never succeed without troops on the ground, as I think we all know. We need to have local people do this fighting on the ground, because no foreign power seems willing to put ground troops in the fight against Daesh.

What I do not understand is the position articulated by the member. I think I understood him to say that we should not be fighting ISIS at all through military means, meaning not only should Canada withdraw militarily, completely, but so should all of our allies, which means that nobody would be on the ground fighting ISIS.

Is that the position of the NDP, that all foreign powers should withdraw from the fight against ISIS, whether through bombing missions, ground-troop training, or anything, and just leave ISIS to spread itself around Syria and Iraq?

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Madam Speaker, the member's question proves the point I was trying to make in my speech, that unless we understand the nature of ISIS, we run the risk of giving it exactly what it is asking for and giving it a tool for recruitment.

What ISIS members want is the great military confrontation, which their version of Islam says will lead to the end of time, the great conflagration. This allows them to use that to command the loyalty of their followers and to recruit new followers.

What the United Nations has said is that a more effective strategy is not to allow them to expand but to cut off the flow of fighters, to cut off the arms, and to cut off the money without which they cannot expand and in fact they cannot continue to exist as a caliphate. Therefore, they lose the mandate to call on those radicalized supporters.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Madam Speaker, I want to thank my colleague in the New Democratic Party for his speech. I do not agree with his position, but at least New Democrats have been consistent on this issue.

The government's position is all over the map. The Liberal Party loves to say one thing and do another. Liberal members opposite really need to think about this, because the backbench members are free to vote as they see fit. They are not part of the government; they are part of the caucus but not part of the government. They should be able to vote freely, as the Liberal Prime Minister has committed to in this House.

When we look at the Liberal Party's traditional position on this, it is actually to support the combat mission against the Islamic State. In fact, on November 17, just last month, former Liberal cabinet minister Ujjal Dosanjh went live on CBC and said that the Prime Minister is sending the wrong message to allies after the Paris attacks, and encouraged the government to reverse its decision to withdraw from the combat mission against the Islamic State. Former Liberal cabinet minister Irwin Cotler also made the same point on October 7, 2014, when he said that he believes a combat mission is necessary to combat the Islamic State.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Madam Speaker, calling on the ability of backbenchers to vote against the government would be rich coming from any other Conservative than that member, who did demonstrate his own independence.

The question the member raises about the policy of the Liberal government is an important one. What is the government policy? What is it planning to do? We have only heard these vague references to a training mission. I have raised my concerns about such a mission putting Canadian Forces members at great risk for uncertain benefits in the fight against ISIL.

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

NDP

François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my hon. colleague, who has done such good work on public safety in recent years. I really like working with him and he really knows his files.

We can certainly do things to help with the fight against terrorism, such as signing the UN Arms Trade Treaty. This would help prevent the circulation of small arms that are often in the hands of terrorist groups.

Does my colleague believe that the Liberals will sign the UN Arms Trade Treaty?

Opposition Motion—Combat Mission Against ISISBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Madam Speaker, to respond very directly, personally, as the NDP defence critic and somebody who represents one of the largest military ridings in the country, the biggest disappointment for me in the Liberal throne speech was that there was no commitment to sign the Arms Trade Treaty and to get that treaty ratified by this Parliament, and to then take a leadership role in cutting off the flow of small arms, not just to ISIS but to other terrorist organizations around the world.