House of Commons Hansard #206 of the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was csis.

Topics

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague said that we do not really have to be worried about protecting the rights and freedoms of our citizens, that it is all under control, despite the fact that our very strong security alliance with the Five Eyes are just as concerned about civil liberties and rights, yet they have put in robust oversight to ensure that through excessive zeal, these kinds of abuses of civil liberties are not caused.

Her colleague from Wild Rose said that the reason they do not want more oversight, according to him, is they do not want it to be politicized. The other partners in the Five Eyes have robust oversight, and yes, politicians were involved. In those countries they are just as concerned as we are with civil liberties.

I am curious about why the government does not feel it would be necessary. There is a big tradition of libertarianism in the Conservative government. People do care about their freedoms and rights. Why is it that my hon. colleague sees a problem with having robust oversight to ensure that we do not abuse the rights of citizens?

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

First, Mr. Speaker, I did not say we should not worry about protection of our rights. In fact, that is the very thing that motivates the bill, because we do want to protect our rights from those who would destroy the framework we have built in our own country. We take that duty seriously.

As far as oversight is concerned, the bill strengthens the oversight. If security forces want to take action that would in any way interfere with the rights and the privacy of a Canadian citizen, they must go to court and they must convince a judge that they have very good reason to do this. If they cannot convince an objective member of the court that they should go ahead, then they will not be allowed to do that. We have also put more resources in review of everything that CSIS does.

I hope that the member will vote for these measures, because they are important to our country.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

5:40 p.m.

NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, we have talked a lot about the fact that Bill C-51 restricts our rights, and we are told that this bill is meant to combat terrorism. However, Bill C-51 is pointless if there are not enough resources to enforce it.

That is the problem: our police forces are no longer able to combat organized crime and terrorist organizations at the same time. Furthermore, the Conservatives are promising to increase law enforcement budgets in the future, not now. It is as though they are telling ISIL to just wait a year or two, because the RCMP is not quite ready to take them on, since their budget increases are being postponed.

What is the point of such a restrictive bill, when the resources needed to enforce it will not be available until several years from now?

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to tell my hon. colleague that since coming to office, our government has increased funding for police and national security agencies by over one-third. We brought forward new funding for these agencies on seven separate occasions, and what happened on those seven occasions? New Democrats, who claim we need more resources, voted against them every single time.

In budget 2015 we invested nearly 300 million new dollars in the fight against terrorism. I hope my hon. colleague will support that investment, but I am willing to bet he will not put his money where his mouth is.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

5:45 p.m.

Simcoe—Grey Ontario

Conservative

Kellie Leitch ConservativeMinister of Labour and Minister of Status of Women

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to join this important debate. We are blessed to live in a great country. In fact, it is the greatest country in the world. Canada is free, prosperous, open and tolerant. Canadians can succeed or fail based on their own merit, believe what they wish, travel as they wish and worship as they wish. However, some wish to take all that away from us.

The international jihadist movement has declared war on our country, on Canada and on our allies. Its members hate us for our freedom, for our prosperity and for our tolerance. They hate us for the values that we all hold dear here at home.

The so-called Islamic State commits unspeakable atrocities and commits them to video in an effort to recruit deviant individuals to join its Islamic extremist cause. These are atrocities that I must say particularly impact women and children and are appalling, quite frankly. It is important to note that these beheadings and incidents where military members are buried alive, these absolutely horrific acts of terrorism are not only a problem in a far-away land. They impact us right here at home.

On two fateful days in October of 2014, Canada was struck by these terrorists. I would hope everyone in this House remembers those days and, in particular, Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent and Corporal Nathan Cirillo, who were killed in cold blood during these terrorist attacks. They were targeted simply because they wore the uniform of the Canadian Armed Forces.

As heartbreaking as it is, Canada has also been a source of jihadist terrorists. Many individuals, and some reports are as high as 150 individuals, have left Canada to go overseas to engage in these actions. This is absolutely unacceptable and we must not allow it to continue. That is why I am pleased and proud to be here in support of the anti-terrorism act.

Let me quote from the words of Louise Vincent, who is probably the most powerful individual who has spoken with respect to this, the sister of Warrant Officer Vincent, who said, “Had Bill C-51 been in force on October 19...Martin Couture-Rouleau...would have been in prison, and my brother would not be dead.”

Those are her words. That is her passion with respect to her sibling. This is an extremely compelling statement. I do not think any Canadian can deny what she said. It is as it has been stated. Rather than heeding the concerns of victims of terrorism, many have sought to try to portray this bill as something that scales back the rights of Canadians. I have to say that nothing could be further from the truth. Some individuals are fundamentally opposed to any measures that may be taken to combat terrorism, measures that would actually protect Canadian children, moms and dads, and Canadians on Canadian soil. Why they may feel this way is quite simply beyond me. Perhaps they have other motives. Perhaps they have other ideas. However, I can tell members that what we should do is listen to the experts, so I will quote a few here.

Steven Bucci of the Heritage Foundation said:

My review of Bill C-51 leads me to conclude that this is...a balance between greater physical protection without loss of civil liberties. In the various sections, there's a judicious expansion of info-sharing and law enforcement authorities but in each there are also provisions for recourse and appeals. There is transparency and openness.... In short, this bill seems to balance security and liberty.

Salim Mansur, a professor at the University of Western Ontario, said, “Bill C-51 in my reading is not designed to turn Canada into some version of Hobbes’ Leviathan or Orwell’s 1984, despite at times the fevered imagination of its critics.”

Dr. Jasser, the President of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, said, “By beginning to focus on those who “may” commit you will begin to hold accountable not just the jihadists on the field of armed jihad but the jihadists in the stands who are cheering on the field warriors about to plant an explosive. You will begin to finally hold accountable the neo-jihadists at the pulpits and in the social media who glorify militant Islamism and demonize Canada, Canadians, your protection forces and your government.”

It is clear that there is a consensus among credible experts that action must be taken and that the measures contained in this bill before us today strike the right balance. There is no liberty without security; there is no prosperity without security; there are no Canadian values without this security.

While the Liberals and the NDP dither on how to best deal with the terrorist threat, our Conservative government is taking action. While the NDP leader refuses to call what happened here on October 22 a terrorist attack, our Conservative government is investing in fighting terrorism. While the Liberal leader believes that terrorists like the Boston bombers are caused by “feelings of exclusion”, our government is creating new tools for our police and national security agencies to protect Canadians. The contrast could not be more clear.

In closing, I would like to read a simple quote:

If you can kill a disbelieving American or European – especially the spiteful and filthy French – or an Australian, or a Canadian, or any other disbeliever from the disbelievers waging war, including the citizens of the countries that entered into a coalition against the Islamic State, then rely upon Allah, and kill him in any manner or way however it may be.

That was said by ISIS spokesman Abu Muhammad al-Adnani. Comments like these, disgusting propaganda and videos, and events that make appearances on the news more frequently than all of us would like, strengthen my resolve to focus further on legislation like this that is absolutely necessary to protect Canadians, and to protect Canadians here at home.

This bill gives our security agencies the tools that they need, tools to keep us safe at home, tools to keep the individuals in my riding, the people we all represent in this place safe here on Canadian soil. It ensures that our rights are protected at the same time.

For that reason, I am proud to support this bill, and I hope that the Liberals and NDP will put aside their past soft focus stances on terrorism and join us in supporting this bill. It is extremely important to make sure that Canadians are protected here at home and that they know that this place, in addition to the Government of Canada, is making sure that they and their families are protected.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

5:50 p.m.

NDP

Dany Morin NDP Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have been here since this morning and since we began talking about this bill. I have listened to the Conservatives' rhetoric, and the demagoguery has reached new highs. As for myself and all my colleagues in the House of Commons, all 308 members, we all agree that the attacks of last October are unacceptable. Using the memory of the victims to score political points is very low.

I will get right to my question for the minister. In practical terms, is there anything at all in this bill that could have helped prevent, and I insist on the word “prevent”, the two tragic attacks that took place last October? I want concrete examples of how this bill could have prevented at least one of those two attacks.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think Ms. Vincent said it very clearly, because she feels very passionately about what is in the bill.

Let me outline some of the key details that are in the bill, all of which would have helped to make sure that these Canadian Forces members were still with us.

It makes a crime to advocate and promote terrorist attacks on Canadian soil illegal. It allows, with the approval of a judge, our police officers to detain terrorist suspects more quickly and for longer periods of time. That is a key item. It authorizes our security agencies to intervene against those plotting terrorist attacks, and to share security information, something they currently are not able to do.

It strengthens the passenger protection act, which is another component part of it, and it also allows our authorities to remove terrorist propaganda.

I would encourage the member opposite to read the bill. These are component parts that are extremely valuable to make sure Canadians are safe. That is why we are moving forward with this legislation.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I listened very carefully as the minister was attempting to explain why the government is all good. At the end of the day, I suspect that Canadians are not going to be fooled. The government has lost a wonderful opportunity to bring in sound, robust legislation to deal with the issue of terrorism in Canada and, at the same time, ensure the rights and freedoms of individual Canadians are being protected.

The biggest shortcoming, I believe, in this legislation is the issue of parliamentary oversight. The question I have for the member is related to that. It was not that long ago when the Conservatives were in opposition and the member for Mount Royal was the minister of justice. At that time, the member's colleague, the current Minister of Justice, supported parliamentary oversight. The Conservatives argued in favour of parliamentary oversight.

Canada is in an alliance known as the Five Eyes with the United States, England, Australia and New Zealand, all of which have parliamentary oversight. Can the member clearly indicate why the Prime Minister does not support parliamentary oversight when everyone else but the Conservatives seem to?

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

Mr. Speaker, let me be very clear for the member opposite. Independent, expert, non-partisan oversight is the very best oversight for any of these organizations. That is actually what the parents in my riding talk about. They want independent, non-partisan oversight because they believe that is the fairest thing to do for Canadians and that is what they expect the Canadian government to move forward on.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

5:55 p.m.

Scarborough Centre Ontario

Conservative

Roxanne James ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Mr. Speaker, after listening to the questions being asked by New Democrats, it is pretty clear that the only way they would support legislation is if we handcuffed our police and blindfolded CSIS. It is truly unfortunate that such misinformation has been pushed out from the opposition party on this particular bill. We are dealing with the very heart of our national security and the protection of Canadians.

The committee heard from credible witnesses on our side, some with more than three decades of experience in law enforcement intelligence gathering. The NDP side brought in people who basically said the sky was going to fall. In fact, some of the groups had appeared way back in the 1980s with regard to the first CSIS Act and, in 2001, on the first Anti-terrorism Act, all saying the same thing.

I am going to ask the minister if she could comment on whether she thinks the sky will fall, as it did not fall in the 1980s and certainly did not fall in 2001.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

As I said in my speech, Mr. Speaker, there is no liberty without security. Therefore, no, the sky is not falling over this. We are making sure that Canadians are safe and secure at home. That is what we are focused on. We are hopeful the opposition will actually step up and make sure that Canadians are safe here on Canadian soil, because that is exactly what this legislation would do.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour for me to speak in the House today on Bill C-51. It is very important legislation that this House and the committee have been working on.

Canadians are worried about the threat the international jihadist movement poses to their communities and to Canada as a whole. The horrors committed by jihadi terrorists are well documented. We have all seen the pictures. We have heard the stories. We have read the articles. We know of the savage beheadings, of people being burned alive and being buried alive. We know that women are being raped, tortured, and enslaved. The list could go on.

These jihadi terrorists recognize no border, and if frustrated in their attempts to travel overseas to join the caliphate, they will seek to commit acts of terrorism right here in Canada. We do not believe in exporting terrorism, and that is why we need Bill C-51.

As Barry Cooper, from the Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute, put it:

So let us state the obvious: Bill C-51 is aimed at violent Islamic jihadi terrorists, and those are the persons against whom its provisions are to be enforced. The reasons are clear enough provided one makes reference to facts and events of the real world today.

Unlike their critics, the authors of Bill C-51 are sensible enough to have recognized the danger. However, the opposition members are insisting that politicians be handed control of oversight of our national security agencies.

As a sitting member of the committee for public safety and national security, I sat through the vigorous study of this act. Witnesses testified that we needed to enhance oversight of our CSIS review body. I am pleased that our government listened and heard those concerns and has responded.

Economic action plan 2015 proposes to provide up to $12.5 million over five years, starting in the 2015-16 fiscal year, and then $2.5 million ongoing thereafter in additional funding to the Security Intelligence Review Committee to enhance its review of CSIS.

While we would ensure that our national security agencies have the tools they need to protect Canadians from the threat of terrorism, we would also ensure that these practices are governed by an effective and transparent framework that protects the rights of individual Canadians. The fact is, budget 2015 will almost double the resources of the Security Intelligence Review Committee. Unlike the opposition, we believe that third-party, non-partisan, independent expert oversight of our national security agencies is a better model than political intervention in the process.

Justice John Major had this to say about the plan to inject politics into national security oversight: “I don't think Parliament is equipped as a body to act as an oversight...which is what is being proposed” by the opposition.

Clare Lopez, of the Center for Security Policy, said, “the use of an intermediary review committee rather than direct parliamentary oversight, has advantages”.

The truth is that the opposition members have been trying to force their way into politicizing national security oversight. The opposition is on record as saying that it is concerned that its social policies might attract the attention of our security intelligence establishment. As Ray Boisvert, former assistant director of CSIS, put it, “anybody who had an issue they'd like to protest [who thinks they] will now become a target of the security establishment.... I think you should not...flatter yourself to that degree”.

Justice John Major also confirmed this reasoning, saying, “citizens who are not validly under suspicion will not have some manufactured reason for their private lives to be interfered with”.

Professor Salim Mansur of Western University also added, “Bill C-51 in my reading is not designed to turn Canada into some version of Hobbes' Leviathan or Orwell's 1984, despite at times the fevered imagination of its critics”.

Canadians understand that freedom and security go hand in hand. They understand that our police and our national security agencies are working to protect our rights and freedoms, and that it is the jihadi terrorists who endanger our security. I could go on, but I believe I have made my point clear.

I would like to read a very descriptive quote from Tom Stamatakis, president of the Canadian Police Association, because I believe it is a good reminder in this debate that those who threaten our freedom and our liberties are not the police officers and the intelligence community tasked with protecting Canadians. Those who threaten our freedoms are the jihadi terrorists.

Mr. Stamatakis stated:

I would take issue with calls for oversight bodies to take a more active role in the operational nature of the jobs we entrust to highly trained and very accountable professional law enforcement, whether a police officer employed by a federal, provincial, or municipal agency or an intelligence officer employed by the federal government. Those who have criticized the Security Intelligence Review Committee for only providing “after the fact” oversight often underestimate how difficult real-time operational oversight can be to achieve, particularly in the context of a fast-moving investigation with very real public safety consequences.

He went on to further say:

Those criticisms also undervalue the often positive effect that ex post facto oversight can have on our industry. Identifying where inappropriate actions may have been taken or where different and more positive decisions could have been made is the very foundation of our services and the training and education that comes from those service reviews.

Mr. Stamatakis clearly makes the point that we have strong oversight that allows them to draw lessons from their experience and continually improve themselves.

As to why we need Bill C-51, I would like to quote Ms. Raheel Raza, president of Muslims Facing Tomorrow. She said that legislation is important to combat radicalization and that we need better tools to track jihadists who travel overseas. She went on to say that “unfortunately we are living in a post-9/11 world and times are such that personal information needs to be shared. That's the reality and I don't have a problem with it.” She said that the “larger picture is that of the security and safety of Canada.”

I believe this quote is very interesting because it mentions the larger picture here and why the anti-terrorism act is needed.

When we talk about the security and safety of Canada as parliamentarians, we should understand that this means ensuring the safety and security of our families.

We intend to continue to work to keep Canadians safe by ensuring our law enforcement agencies have the tools to do the job they need to do to combat the threat of the international jihadi terrorist movement.

As Tahir Gora of the Canadian Thinkers' Forum said:

The government's proposed Bill C-51, when passed by Parliament, shall help Canadian Muslims to curb extremist elements....

The world is a dangerous place, as was most brutally demonstrated by last October's attacks in Ottawa and Quebec, and Canada is not immune to the threat of terrorism. The proposed legislation would provide Canadian law enforcement and national security agencies with additional tools and flexibility to keep pace with evolving threats and to better protect Canadians here at home.

We are ensuring our law enforcement and national security agencies can counter those who advocate terrorism, prevent terrorist travel, and the efforts of those who seek to use Canada as a recruiting ground. We are also making sure that our law enforcement agencies can prevent and disrupt planned attacks on Canadian soil.

We will continue to support this legislation because we believe the anti-terrorist act as being the appropriate response to the growing threat of jihadi terrorists that seek to further their radical ideology and their idea of totalitarian caliphate by murdering those who oppose them.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Hélène LeBlanc NDP LaSalle—Émard, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the Conservative member's speech.

Trust is an issue when matters as important as security and rights protection are in the hands of a government. There must be a relationship of trust. However, in this Parliament and in this House, that trust has unfortunately been broken because the rights of parliamentarians have been violated time and time again by time allocation motions and by a lack of respect for the laws that govern this country and parliamentary traditions. Canadians are having a hard time trusting this government right now. That is why many Canadians have stood up to protest Bill C-51.

Why does this member think that Canadians should trust this government to protect our rights and freedoms?

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Mr. Speaker, trust, like respect, is something that is earned. I think Canadians can see from the track record of our Prime Minister and our government that we have delivered time and time again, whether it is on balancing the budget or providing victims of crime with rights. Our government has delivered on many initiatives.

I think the that the NDP is proposing questions here: Can we trust CSIS with the powers that the bill would give them to fight the jihadi terrorists? Can we trust our law enforcement agencies with the powers in the bill to enable them to share information so they can properly fight the jihadi terrorists?

The question is not so much on whether we can trust the government, but can we trust the law enforcement agencies that work so diligently in keeping us safe? I find that question offensive.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, what we have witnessed over the last number of years, as the world grows more concerned about terrorism, is that there is a need to make changes to laws.

Jean Chrétien first brought in Canada's anti-terrorism act in 2001. If we compare the efforts put into that legislation, we find there was a great deal of consultation, a lot more building of bridges and trying to ensure that Canadians were being protected, while at the same time being able to fight terrorism. As things have evolved, other countries around the world, in particular the Five Eyes countries, have recognized the importance of parliamentary oversight. This is very different than judicial oversight, which is what the proposed legislation would bring forward.

My question to the member is: Why does the government, from his perspective, not recognize the importance of parliamentary oversight when our peers are putting in parliamentary oversight? Would he not agree that is a shortcoming of the legislation?

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for Winnipeg North. It gives me the opportunity to speak to that exact question.

At committee when we reviewed this bill, we heard from many of the witnesses that they would like additional oversight. Our government has responded in economic action plan 2015 by almost doubling the funds for oversight.

As members have said previously, this bill would also continue to provide for judicial oversight. This means that before CSIS agents can carry out their activities, they need to present their case and get a judge to agree that what they want to do is proper and good. Then we have the oversight to confirm that the permissions that were granted by the courts to CSIS were carried through with, and that is done by SIRC.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

6:10 p.m.

Scarborough Centre Ontario

Conservative

Roxanne James ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my hon. colleague for his speech as well as for his work on the public safety and security committee.

Throughout the testimony, and the member was there along with me, we heard from very credible witnesses, some with extensive experience in law enforcement and security intelligence gathering, as well as those who have actually studied terrorism for more than 10 years.

I wonder if the member could speak directly to the credible witness testimony that we heard and why those witnesses thought this legislation was important.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety for her leadership on this bill, and also for her leadership at committee. She does amazing work. Her constituents should be very proud of her.

We listened to over 48 expert witnesses, who brought years and years of experience and credibility to the discussions and deliberations at committee. They provided expert testimony to confirm that the bill would provide our law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to identify and also reduce and minimize the risk of jihadi terrorists in Canada. They spoke favourably of being able to accomplish the work we have asked them to do if they had the tools provided in Bill C-51.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

It being 6:15 p.m., pursuant to an order made on Thursday, April 30 it is my duty to interrupt and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the report stage of the bill now before the House.

The question is on Motion No. 1. A vote on this motion also applies to Motions Nos. 2, 3, 5 to 44 and 46 to 66. A negative vote on Motion No. 1 requires the questions being put on Motions Nos. 4 and 45. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

6:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

6:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

All those opposed will please say nay.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

6:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015Government Orders

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

In my opinion the nays have it.

And five or more members having risen:

Call in the members.