House of Commons Hansard #33 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was right.

Topics

Forestry IndustryOral Questions

3 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Mr. Speaker, the government will present its first budget in just a few minutes. Unfortunately, its signals to Quebec's forestry industry, such as when I asked the Minister of International Trade and the Minister of Foreign Affairs questions in the House, have been very disquieting.

I would like to remind the government that all the Quebec Forest Industry Council wants is to restore free trade with the United States. The organization's president and CEO, André Tremblay, sounded the alarm when he said that, “It's now or never. It's time to stand up for Quebec”, because this is no more or less—

Forestry IndustryOral Questions

3 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan

Forestry IndustryOral Questions

3 p.m.

University—Rosedale Ontario

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland LiberalMinister of International Trade

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her very long question, but I did hear it clearly.

We have made it clear from the beginning that this issue is an absolute priority for our government and for me personally. I am pleased to announce that the Prime Minister and the President expressed their interest in a long-term softwood lumber agreement during our visit to Washington. Our objective remains maintaining stable access to the U.S. market for Canada's softwood lumber industry.

The BudgetOral Questions

3 p.m.

Bloc

Simon Marcil Bloc Mirabel, QC

Mr. Speaker, the federal budget has a direct impact on major sectors of Quebec's economy. The government has already said that there is nothing in the budget to help Aveos workers and Bombardier workers. The Liberals refuse to commit to providing any compensation for dairy and cheese producers for lost revenues associated with the Canada-EU trade agreement.

Since the workers in Quebec's economic sectors are being ignored once again in this budget, does this mean that nothing has changed and government MPs from Quebec still have very little influence on decisions made by the Canadian government?

The BudgetOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Saint-Maurice—Champlain Québec

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question.

It is not true that we did not consult people. We consulted Canadians all over the country. I come from the Mauricie region, and I can assure this House that we consulted the people in Trois-Rivières. To say that we did not consult Quebeckers about the upcoming budget is folly. We listened to all Canadians, because what we are trying to do is build an economy that works for all Canadians from coast to coast to coast, and that is exactly what we will be presenting in a few minutes.

Presence in GalleryOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan

I would like to draw to the attention of hon. members the presence in the gallery of the Honourable Chris Collins, Speaker of the Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick,

Presence in GalleryOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear!

Presence in GalleryOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan

I would also like to draw to the attention of hon. members the presence in the gallery of of the recipients of the 2016 Governor General's Awards in Visual and Media Arts: Edward Burtynsky, Marnie Fleming, Philip Hoffman, Jane Kidd, Wanda Koop, Suzy Lake, Mark Lewis, and William Vazan.

Presence in GalleryOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear!

Oral QuestionsPoints of OrderOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON

Mr. Speaker, as you know, it is customary in the House when a minister of the crown inadvertently misspeaks or misleads the House that there is an opportunity to correct the record.

Earlier today, the President of the Treasury Board, in response to a question from the leader of the third party, said that the government never interfered in provincial elections and provincial affairs. However, in the House, all of us, especially the member for Whitby, remember the Prime Minister's jet-set trip to Whitby, Oshawa to stand alongside the premier. Therefore, I would like to request unanimous consent to table the document outlining—

Oral QuestionsPoints of OrderOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan

Order, please. It sounds like this is debate of course, but the member has asked for unanimous consent to table a document. Is there unanimous consent?

Oral QuestionsPoints of OrderOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Oral QuestionsPoints of OrderOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Kings—Hants Nova Scotia

Liberal

Scott Brison LiberalPresident of the Treasury Board

Mr. Speaker, I very much appreciate the question from the hon. member in response to the question from the NDP earlier today. I think the hon. member would agree with me that there is a difference between supporting of provincial candidates who share values and alleging—

Oral QuestionsPoints of OrderOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan

Order, please. I think we are well into debate on both sides here. I am glad to see that the point of order that the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle wishes to raise is on the Standing Orders because it suggests that he actually has a real point of order, I hope. We will see.

Oral QuestionsPoints of OrderOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Mr. Speaker, it is a real point of order.

Pursuant to Standing Order 84(1), today is the day that has been designated for the motion that the House approve in general the budgetary policy of the government. In order to help frame the debate and help parliamentarians understand, I wonder if I can table the “Fiscal Monitor” that—

Oral QuestionsPoints of OrderOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan

Order, please. I appreciate the hon. member's effort to tie that debate point to the Standing Orders, very much. I believe the official opposition House leader is asking for permission also to table a document. Is there unanimous consent?

Oral QuestionsPoints of OrderOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Oral QuestionsPoints of OrderOral Questions

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Speaker, if we are in the business of fabricating points of order, I could perhaps find one, but I do not think it is necessary.

Oral QuestionsPoints of OrderOral Questions

3:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan

I appreciate that.

Federal Public Sector Labour Relations ActGovernment Orders

3:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan

Order, please. I encourage members to take their discussions behind the curtains. In fact, I encourage the whips to encourage their members to take their discussions behind the curtains.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan.

Federal Public Sector Labour Relations ActGovernment Orders

3:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate your assistance in trying to get the chamber a bit more organized and a little more quiet. It is surprising, because normally when I stand to speak, members opposite hang on every word. Therefore, it was a little disturbing to find out here were actually people in here who did not want to hear what I had to say.

When I concluded my remarks prior to question period, I was in the midst of telling all members about my history both with the RCMP and the union movement in Canada.

In particular, with the union movement, I mentioned that my father had been a senior member of the United Steelworkers of America. In fact, he was the western Canadian head of the United Steelworkers of America. He trained Ken Neumann, who is now the national director of the United Steelworkers of America. Therefore, I have an intimate knowledge of the union movement.

I recall my father taking me on many occasions to union meetings when I was extremely young. I was never quite sure why he did that. It was either (a) an obligation to his babysitting commitment to my mother, or (b) he was trying to groom me to become a labour representative or a union representative such as himself. I suppose, in retrospect, if it was (a), he succeeded admirably and if it was (b), he failed miserably. Nonetheless, I was able to observe many things from these meetings, these union gatherings that I went to.

One of the things that struck me then, and it certainly continues to strike me now, was the fact that in the vast majority of cases whenever there was a vote to be cast at a union meeting, whether it would be a local union or a larger gathering of several locals, the votes were always public. I could not understand that because it was obviously something I believed, even at a young age, should be done in private.

However, I also saw the opposite side of the coin. Back in the early 1960s, when my father tried to organize a potash mine in Esterhazy, Saskatchewan, he would go down there with sign-up cards and get a number of the workers in the potash mine to sign those cards indicating their preference to unionize. Then mysteriously many times those same members who signed the cards would no longer be employees of the potash mine. That was pure and simple intimidation.

I have seen intimidation on both sides of the ledger. I have seen union members try to intimidate or at least pressure some of their fellow co-workers into voting in a particular manner. I also know from first-hand experience that there has been pressure or intimidation from the management side to try to influence the vote of certain workers. Quite frankly, that is unacceptable. I think most Canadians would feel that it is as an affront to natural law, justice and absolute fairness in our country.

The way to get over that is to have secret ballots. If union members were able to vote freely according to their own beliefs in a secret ballot environment, intimidation would not play a part in this whole process. Management would be unable to successfully intimidate employees and union members would not be successful in their attempts to pressure or intimidate their co-workers. A secret ballot provides the assurance that each and every union member would be able to vote according to his or her conscience and beliefs.

For example, I have seen strike votes where unions get together in a public environment and have to vote in favour or against a strike by a show of hands. I have experienced first-hand some very serious pressure and intimidation. If union leadership wanted a strike to occur, many members who may not want to go on strike because they could not afford to take a reduced salary or no salary at all because they had mouths to feed at home were pressured into voting in favour of their union boss' belief that a strike was necessary. That is just as unacceptable as it would be if a management member tried to intimidate a union member or a non-union member into voting against certification.

Secret ballots are the absolute solution and remedy to intimidation factors and tactics, yet the government feels otherwise. For some reason, it feels that Bill C-525, which allowed for secret balloting in either union certification or decertification, should be eliminated, and that changes to the Canada Labour Code should be enacted to go back to the old system. I just cannot agree with that.

Although I believe that Bill C-7 is on balance a worthwhile piece of legislation containing many provisions that I agree with, the single provision that does not allow for secret balloting on union certification or decertification makes it impossible for me to support this particular piece of legislation.

One could present an argument that the system that had been in place for many years, whereby petitions could be circulated and cards could be signed, was appropriate, but that certainly has not proven to be the case in the majority of provinces across Canada. In fact, in the majority of provinces in Canada, provincial legislation deems that secret balloting must take place in determining either certification or decertification of a union, and it has worked well.

I could also share from personal experience conversations I have had with many rank-and-file union members, who have expressed the same concern that I am expressing here. That is the concern that their right to vote freely has been impugned because of the public nature of voting within many unions.

Let me simply say that while Bill C-7 contains many solid provisions that support the RCMP and allow its members to determine their own fate when it comes to unionizing and enjoying collective bargaining, and while many of those provisions we heard earlier in debate today protect them on many other fronts, the single fact that the government does not see fit to allow one of the most fundamental tenets in democracy, that being secret ballots, makes the bill absolutely unacceptable to me and, I am sure, to all my colleagues on the Conservative benches.

What is the solution? Frankly, we have heard many times before, particularly from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, that committees should take a stronger and more active role in determining legislation in the House. That is a position that I quite frankly agree with and support, so we are simply asking that an amendment be considered at committee that would allow this legislation to include the provision of secret balloting before being presented to the House in its final form for third reading.

I do not know whether or not that is going to happen. I could assume that we will be able to move an amendment at committee and engage in debate, but I sense quite strongly that despite the nice words from the parliamentary secretary to the government House leader, their committee members will be whipped and instructed to vote against any amendment that the official opposition brings forward in relation to secret ballots.

Once again, I find it extremely difficult to stand in this place and completely understand how the government can defend that position. Every one of the members of this place was elected by secret ballot. The Speaker of this chamber was elected by a secret ballot. Why is that the case? Why is it the case that in almost every democracy in the world, secret ballots have been accepted as the norm?

The government seems to be swimming upstream. Why is it doing that? Quite frankly, Liberals made a number of commitments during the election campaign to try to gather support from the union movement in Canada. One of them was the commitment to repeal Bill C-377 on union transparency. Another was the commitment to repeal Bill C-525, which allowed for secret balloting in certification and decertification votes. I suppose on the one hand they are keeping their commitment to their election campaign platform, but it flies in the face of any democratic institution that we know of.

There is one other point I would like to make. It has been mentioned several times in today's debate, primarily by the member for Spadina—Fort York, that Bill C-7 does not disallow the RCMP from determining their own fate when it comes to a secret ballot. He says they are able to vote for certification or non-certification by secret ballot if they so choose. That is factually incorrect. Because of the provisions in Bill C-4, which would change the Canada Labour Code, the RCMP would not be able to choose a secret ballot even if the majority of their members wanted to.

I would point out to the member for Spadina—Fort York that what he is attempting to state in the House as fact is absolutely just the opposite. It is factually incorrect. Because of Bill C-4, the RCMP would not have the ability to vote for union certification, should they desire, in a secret ballot environment.

I would suggest to all members of this place that if one were to poll rank-and-file members of the RCMP and simply ask them if they would be in favour of a secret ballot process for certification, the overwhelming majority of non-union members would state yes, they want a secret ballot.

I have spoken with a great many RCMP members. I have spoken in the House of my close relationship with many members, both present and past. Almost to a person, when speaking about the certification process, these members say they would prefer to have a secret ballot.

I firmly believe that whenever the vote is taken, RCMP members will vote to unionize. I have that sense. However, they should be allowed to do so in a secret ballot environment. They should be allowed to cast their ballot knowing full well that no one else will know how they voted. That is something we hold dear in our country, yet the Liberals seem to be reversing the democratic will of the people by forcing public notification of union certification votes. That is unacceptable.

I can assure the House that on this side, unless an amendment is brought forward to reverse the secret balloting provisions and allow for secret ballots in union certification votes, members on the Conservative side will be voting against Bill C-7, and for good reason.

Federal Public Sector Labour Relations ActGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Vancouver Quadra B.C.

Liberal

Joyce Murray LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the President of the Treasury Board

Madam Speaker, I have good news for the member for Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan. Under this legislation, Bill C-7, the Public Service Labour Relations and Employment Board will have both tools available—either a secret ballot or a card system—and it can apply the one it believes will give the fairest and most representative outcome.

I do not even want to say how many times the member has made allegations that are simply not true. This is available, and it will be a neutral board. There will not be employer interference or other interference. A neutral board of up to 12 members would determine which of the tools would be appropriate.

I want to ask the member this question. Bill C-525, which he was saying such nice things about, was brought forward by the Conservative government with no consultation, yet with evidence from their own research—which they hid—that suggested that bill was going to undermine labour relations and unions. That was on the one side.

On the other side we have Bill C-7, which would give a neutral board options for how to have the votes held so that they can do it in the interests of the RCMP members and there has been full consultation by RCMP members.

Which one is the more democratic? Which one gives the most freedom of choice of those two options?

Federal Public Sector Labour Relations ActGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK

Madam Speaker, it is quite obvious. The most democratic way to approach this is by secret ballots.

Would the member opposite suggest that in her position as a member of Parliament, she be elected by a show of hands or the signing of a petition? I suggest not. Why, then, should union members be forced to avoid and abandon a secret ballot environment? Why should union members, and only union members, be forced into an anti-democratic position? That is exactly what this is.

Bill C-525 simply allowed union members to determine their own fate by a secret ballot. The most democratic way to approach any vote should be by secret ballot to avoid intimidation tactics.

I would point out to the member opposite that if she is talking about true democracy, the Liberals are going about it in exactly the wrong manner.

Federal Public Sector Labour Relations ActGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

NDP

Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan for his kind words about RCMP Depot, which was in his former riding and is now in my riding. I share his sense of pride in representing this iconic Canadian institution.

I would also pay tribute to the member's remarks about his father's role in building the steelworkers union in Saskatchewan. I have inherited some books signed by his father, from my time with that great organization.

It seems that the member is arguing that, because the Conservatives do not like the certification process in the Canada Labour Code, members of the RCMP should be denied any access to collective bargaining. That is kind of like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

If that actually is the Conservative position on this issue, I guess I would have to ask why the previous Conservative government did not extend collective bargaining rights to members of the RCMP when it had its preferred mode of certification in effect in the Canada Labour Code?