House of Commons Hansard #216 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was shepell.

Topics

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

You have to have customers in order to be in business.

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I just want to remind members that there cannot be any discussion back and forth. Address the comments to the Chair. I will remind the member for Barrie—Innisfil to please hold his comments. I am sure that I would be pleased to recognize him during the question and comment section.

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, along the line of supporting small businesses and how to create customers, the best way to do that is to put more disposable income in the pockets of Canada's middle class. It is the middle class that drives our economy. That is what creates the jobs, the middle class.

If we address the importance of Canada's middle class and those striving to be a part of it, we will have a more successful, robust economy. In 18 months we have been able to clearly demonstrate that. Let us look at some of the numbers. I am big on trends, and I am very impressed by the job creation numbers, with over 400,000 jobs created in less that two years. That is more jobs than the Harper government was able to create over 10 years. The plan is in fact working.

This is the point in regard to small business, that we gave the tax break to Canada's middle class. We actually reduced the taxes of Canada's middle class. What was the response of the Conservative Party? It voted against it, but it was that the tax cut that put money in the pockets of—

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am just wondering if the jobs numbers were in any of the documents the minister provided the Ethics Commissioner, because—

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

That is not a point of order. Comments and questions come afterwards. Maybe the member would like to get up. As the member is well aware, during debate there is some flexibility. As to the discussion, I will remind the member that he is to keep his comments on the motion itself. I also recognize that there is some flexibility in the discussion at hand.

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, to appease my colleague across the way from Elmwood—Transcona, who maybe was not paying attention to my whole presentation, I have consistently said that the opposition, including in good part the NDP, have consistently opposed the Minister of Finance in every way, just like the motion today does. The NDP members are working with the Conservatives, even though the Ethics Commissioner has said that nothing has gone wrong. The Ethics Commissioner has not sent advice or a recommendation to the Minister of Finance, who has done exactly what the member across the way has done.

We enhanced business through a tax break for the middle class and both the Conservatives and the NDP voted against that. We know there have been many other initiatives. The opposition parties jointly voted against the Minister of Finance when it came to the tax increase on Canada's wealthiest. I would argue that it was about tax fairness, but they chose to oppose the government.

There have been a number of initiatives by the government that have been led by the Minister of Finance. Look at the Canada pension plan. The Minister of Finance worked with federal counterparts across every province and territory on a very important deal. One of my colleagues referred to how the Minister of Finance was working with other ministers. It was the finance minister from Saskatchewan who commented on the integrity of the national Minister of Finance. He said it was nice to see Minister of Finance follow through on the things he said, and there is a tremendous amount of respect for him, which ultimately resulted in an enhancement of the CPP, something that the Harper government was unable to achieve, let alone have an interest in. It ensures that Canadians will have more money in their pockets when it comes time to retire in the years ahead. What was the response by the opposition parties? They called it another tax and then went on to attack the Minister of Finance once again, even though other political parties at the provincial level did not see it as a tax. They see it as an investment for retirement for Canadians in the future, but not the Conservative Party here. They are so fixated and wanting to attack the Minister of Finance that they have focused their attention day in and day out criticizing the minister because of this so-called tax, which was not really a tax.

We can talk about the guaranteed income supplement, which I thought was long overdue. The former government ignored that file and we now have a new government with the Minister of Finance who wants to get more seniors out of poverty. That is what the increase to the GIS was all about. In good part, it was a huge success. Once again, the Conservative Party—

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

We have a point of order.

The hon. member for Elgin—Middlesex—London.

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Karen Vecchio Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON

Madam Speaker, I am coming back to relevance. Today's motion is focusing on the minister and his ethics, not on the guaranteed income supplement or the Canada pension plan. I recognize that we have flexibility here, including on the part of the Chair, but the member is so far away from this discussion, I hope that he can get back on track very soon.

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I have indicated before that there is some latitude in the speeches. However, I will remind the member to maybe review the opposition motion, and I am sure that he will bring his speech back to that.

The hon. parliamentary secretary.

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, to the member across the way, hopefully this will help, and I say this with all sincerity. If the member reads the motion, the motion itself is an attack on the Minister of Finance. You are asking that the Minister of Finance to provide documents that you are not asking of any other—

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I remind the member to address the questions and comments to the chair as opposed to individual members.

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, the Conservative Party is asking the Minister of Finance to produce documents and do things that no other member of the House is requested to do.

If members listen to what is being said, they will find that I am arguing that every time the Conservatives get an opportunity to attack the Minister of Finance, they do so. These are the examples I am providing. These members might not like to be reminded of their attitude and voting records on something that is really important to all Canadians, but it is worth noting that, much like the motion we are debating today, the Conservatives continue to want to attack the Minister of Finance.

I then contrasted and put the question to viewers or anyone who might be listening, in particular, my Conservative colleagues across the way, that the Conservatives are not the body, thank goodness, that determines what is ethical or not. We have an independent officer of Parliament to determine that. In this case, it is the Ethics Commissioner, and the Ethics Commissioner is someone we continue to work with.

However, it is interesting how the Conservatives try to give the impression that the Ethics Commissioner is super busy. I would argue that the Ethics Commissioner has always been busy. When I was in opposition, there was no shortage of issues that we encouraged the Ethics Commissioner to look at. I believe members will find that the Ethics Commissioner looks at not just one side of the House but all sides of the House.

We have a Conservative opposition that wants to try to give the impression that the Minister of Finance is in fact breaking a law or doing something that is against our code of ethics. In fact, the Conservatives have not tabled or brought forward anything that gives any clear indication that this is in fact the case. Therefore, I ask: Why would we listen to the Conservative rhetoric on the issue when we have an Ethics Commissioner who is charged with that responsibility?

I believe Canadians will look to the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, because it is independent. I do not have to expand on why that office is independent, but it is much like the independent Commissioner of Elections Canada. We also have an independent auditor general. We have these independent officers of Parliament. This is their job.

Not one Conservative can stand and point to a recommendation from the Ethics Commissioner that the Minister of Finance, or any other member, whether Conservative or NDP, is in violation of the Conflict of Interest Act and conflict of interest code, or is not following the advice or recommendation of the Ethics Commissioner. Instead, they are just denigrating, as they have consistently done in response to a number of points I have raised this afternoon, the Minister of Finance and the fine work he has been doing on behalf of the Government of Canada.

When we look at the results, they are very clear. I will use the simple example of jobs, because jobs matter. There were 400,000-plus jobs created in less than two years.

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to hear my friend from Winnipeg North speak in the House. I invite Canadians to check out an amazing website called openparliament.ca, because they can see what MPs have said throughout the course of their parliamentary lives. For someone as verbose as my friend, it is a treasure trove for people like me to see if he is consistent in his views in this Parliament.

On May 21, 2013, the member for Winnipeg North called for an emergency debate in the House of Commons related to ethics and disclosure and conduct at the time. The irony is that at that time, the emergency debate the member was requesting dealt with staff members in the Prime Minister's Office, not members of Parliament and not finance ministers, which is what this opposition day motion is about today. He wanted an emergency debate in the House of Commons about the conduct of staff. He ended his request by saying, “There can be no more important issue for the House of Commons than ensuring the integrity of our parliamentary institutions.”

That is what this debate today is doing. He should be applauding, not deferring this debate. I would invite members from his riding to check out the consistency of that member. The outrage he showed in the past seems to dissipate now, with the actions of the Liberal government.

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, it is interesting that the member across the way would bring that up as an example. It was a truly amazing occurrence that was taking place in the other chamber, in the Senate. We had thousands of dollars being shifted around by staff in the PMO and the Senate. What an amazing web it was. Even the prime minister, Stephen Harper, tried to get some distance from that disaster. That is like night and day in terms of a comparison.

I have a lot of respect for my colleague across the way. I really do. I thought he would have done better on a question. It just does not give me enough time to revisit Harper-gate, or whatever it is they might want to call it.

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I just want to remind the members that there should not be any heckling while another member is speaking.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Sherbrooke.

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Madam Speaker, I find it fascinating to watch the Liberals' and the Conservatives' mutual finger-pointing as they try to sort out which party is the worst offender when it comes to ethics and integrity. The Conservatives say they are not as bad as the Liberals, while the Liberals say the opposite and claim superiority in terms of integrity, but as the NDP sees it, each is as bad as the other.

I have a very simple question. My colleague repeatedly called the motion an attack against the Minister of Finance. I invite him to reread the motion, which simply states that there may be a conflict of interest between the finance minister's assets and his proposed legislation. At the end of the motion, the mover asks that the Minister of Finance table all documents related to his declaration to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. I do not understand why my colleague sees that as an attack. I think this is simply asking the Minister of Finance to lay all his cards on the table so everyone is aware of his affairs and can see whether or not there is a conflict of interest. This is just about bringing all of the information to light. It is simply a request that the Minister of Finance be transparent and clear the air. Why does my colleague interpret it as an attack?

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, what is next? Are we going to have a motion that everyone, all 338 MPs, should submit to the House of Commons and table all the correspondence they have shared with the commissioner? Is that what the member is implying should happen? Do they remember what happened when we had proactive disclosure? The NDP had to be kicked, dragging and screaming, to accept proactive disclosure.

They talk about throwing stones in glass houses. One of my colleagues made a reference to that. They will recall the satellite scandal, when the New Democrats created offices and said they had people working here, here, and here. They were not telling the truth. It cost taxpayers millions of dollars. I think we are still trying to recover some of that money from the NDP.

In fairness, there is always room for improvement on all sides of this House in all political parties.

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Karen Vecchio Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON

Madam Speaker, I am glad we are back on the actual motion. I was happy to send the motion over to the member just to remind him what we were talking about today.

I am going to be focusing on this, because we are talking about finance and money. Let us say that the member is an owner of a pharmaceutical company. Should he not, if he is a health minister, advise that he is the minister of health and owns a pharmaceutical company? Let us say that he is a member of the board at a military equipment company. As the procurement minister, should he not make sure that there is not a conflict of interest? Should he not make sure that there is a screen?

Rather than thinking that this is a personal attack on the Minister of Finance, think of any other situation where a minister's department and what they do are so hand in hand. Does he not think the Minister of Finance should have declared his business in a blind trust?

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, I sat in opposition when the Harper government decided to kill the Canadian wheat board. I wonder how many farmers from the Prairies were in the government caucus. Many would imply that they had a vested interest. After all, many of them were grain farmers, yet they were killing the Canadian wheat board. We are still paying part of the cost for that issue today.

We have a system in place, a process. It says that if people are elected, they go before the commissioner's office, or the commissioner's office contacts them, and there are certain requirements. A person must fulfill those requirements. There is a certain amount of trust that all members are honourable members. When we are asked for information, we provide that information. There might be a mistake or two when there are 338 members, but we all have to respect the process and go through it.

I believe that the Minister of Finance and all members of this House have respected that process and have gone through it. There might be the odd mistake, whether it is a New Democrat, a Conservative, or a Liberal. It is possible, but I believe that the intent of all members is genuine in dealing with the commissioner's office.

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Madam Speaker, part of the crux of the issue and the reason the finance minister was singled out is that Canadians were led to believe that he was acting in accordance with the recommendations of the Ethics Commissioner. What we found out in testimony at committee today was that, in fact, that was not the case. The Ethics Commissioner said clearly at committee today that she did not advise the finance minister not to put his assets in a blind trust.

We know also that in two instances, Bill C-27 and the small business tax proposals, there are legitimate concerns about the fact that those proposals could directly have an impact on the business of the finance minister, which we now know is not in a blind trust. He has knowledge of what is going on in his own business.

That is why this is about the finance minister. That is different from any other member of the House. There are not stories like that about any other member of the House. They are not in a position to benefit their own businesses in the way we are concerned the finance minister may be.

I wonder why the member for Winnipeg North is more concerned about defending the finance minister's precarious position than he is about making sure that the business of government is being conducted fairly and in a way that meets a very high ethical standard. There are clearly legitimate questions about whether the finance minister is meeting that standard.

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, the member is somewhat playing with words. Think about the question he posed. He said that the commissioner did not say that she did not advise him to set up a blind trust. The point is that she did not recommend or advise him to establish a blind trust. Imagine if we were to apply that very same principle to each of the 338 MPs.

The Ethics Commissioner was doing her job. She did not say to the Minister of Finance that he had to create a blind trust. Why try to give that impression? That is what the NDP and the Conservatives are trying to do. That is why I am saying not to trust the opposition on this issue. I will trust Mary Dawson, the Ethics Commissioner, because that is what she does, and she is independent.

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate my colleague from Winnipeg-North for having such a selective memory, but I hope he remembers what he said over the last few years when he sat in opposition. I will share my time with my colleague from Barrie-Innisfil, in Ontario.

Before going into politics, I worked for a long time in the business world and, naturally, I met many businessmen and women. I have a huge respect for entrepreneurs and SMEs. I acknowledge their work and contribution. Working in business means not counting the hours. When someone chooses to start a business, that normally means dedicating themselves to it heart and soul. There is no 9 to 5 for them, nor happy hours, since they have to work practically 24/7. They have to wait at least five years before even thinking of planning a vacation, and if they take time off, they have to pay the price, before and after.

Now let us talk about the risks. Investments have to be made, and there are no guarantees. Entrepreneurs are diving in head first, investing in their business. At the beginning of every month, they have to start over, get more orders, pay their employees, pay back their loans, and remit payroll deductions. Before they know it, their monthly expenses are due again, so they have to create wealth.

They also need to become financially independent in order to get through difficult times. Unfortunately, when a person starts a business, there are difficult times. They often occur unexpectedly, so business owners need to have a contingency fund. That is an enormous sacrifice for families. It is a choice, and, if these entrepreneurs do manage to create prosperity, they can enjoy it, but there are no guarantees.

Many Canadians dream of being their own boss, creating something that will grow and that can be passed on to their children and grandchildren. A responsible government needs to create winning conditions for these entrepreneurs to achieve their goals and feel good about their accomplishments. That is what economic development is all about. It creates jobs. Many of the jobs out there are held by the middle class. We must not forget that 90% of all jobs in Canada are created by SMEs.

Our country is the greatest country in the world, largely because of our robust economy. We spent 10 years in power building a solid economy, and now the government is destroying any optimism and passion our entrepreneurs might have had. Whether they are creating or managing SMEs or working for themselves, these people are an important part of our economy.

I entered politics for a number of reasons. First, I wanted to represent the citizens of the beautiful riding of Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, but it was also because I firmly believe that we need to implement measures to support our entrepreneurs. There are many industrial parks in Canada’s 338 ridings. They drive the economies of many of our regions, and it is important that we support them.

As I was saying, more than 90% of jobs in Canada are created by SMEs. We need to motivate them to continue to prosper. It makes some people uneasy when we say a business is prospering, but there is no crime in prospering. On the contrary, when businesses prosper, they continue to do business and grow. That is what provides momentum for the economy and makes it possible to improve the lives of middle-class workers.

We are well aware that the Liberal government is unabashedly spending Canadians’ tax dollars while continually asking them to tighten their belts. This same Liberal government, in its 2016 budget, could not wait to eliminate the tax breaks implemented by Mr. Harper’s government to help Canadian families.

In 2015, this same government promised to lower the tax rate for small and medium-sized businesses. What has it done since taking office? It nixed this policy because it came from the Conservatives. Just yesterday, as a result of representations from the Conservative opposition and action by thousands of entrepreneurs in Canada, the Prime Minister, with his lapdog the Minister of Finance, hastily, but somewhat reluctantly, said that he was going to lower taxes for SMEs. He did this to buy the silence of SMEs, but that change will take effect not in 2017 or 2018, but in 2019, an election year. What does he take entrepreneurs for? This is all just smoke and mirrors. He is making things up as he goes along.

What led the Minister of Finance and the Prime Minister to change their plan was the tax reform. When will it be put in place? When will it be applied? They did not cancel the reform yesterday. They handed out a goody, but the tax reform is still happening. The Liberals do not respect SMEs. Once again, it is all just smoke and mirrors.

Meanwhile, the Minister of Finance is strutting about developing business for Morneau Shepell. I do not know if everyone knows about the company. It is the company he owned. We do not know either whether he has sold his shares. We asked today during question period, but we have not yet had a response. He probably did not understand the question. That is why the parliamentary secretary parroted the same talking points that did not answer the question.

This minister said he was above the law. We learned last week that the Minister of Finance had waited two years before informing the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner that he was a partner in a company that owns and manages a villa in France. We are learning now that no only is this Liberal government spending taxpayers' money shamelessly, but that the Minister of Finance's family business, Morneau Shepell, would also benefit from changes proposed in the document entitled Tax Planning Using Private Corporations. I am not the one saying this; experts have said this. It will lend more credibility. I am a parliamentarian, not an economist.

The Minister of Finance should not avoid questions in the House. He must answer without always repeating the same talking points. He must not scorn the middle class and SMEs that create jobs. He must provide honest answers to the questions asked by all parliamentarians.

Once elected and sworn in, members are required to observe certain rules of conduct in performing their parliamentary duties. I will quote a few paragraphs from the House of Commons Procedure and Practice, which describes the responsibilities and conduct of MPs:

Members sit in the House of Commons to serve as representatives of the people who have elected them to that office. They have wide-ranging responsibilities which include work in the Chamber, committees, their constituencies and political parties.

On being elected, Members of the House of Commons become trustees of public confidence. Members must place the public’s interests over their private interests and [I stress this section] derive no personal benefit or gain from their decisions. [They must be impartial].

The same source states:

In addition to statutory prohibitions, Prime Ministers have issued conflict of interest guidelines for Ministers and other public office holders....The code is voluntary and applies to Cabinet Ministers, Secretaries of State, Parliamentary Secretaries and other senior public office holders (full-time Governor in Council appointees). It requires that, on appointment to one of these offices, the office holders are to arrange their private affairs so as to prevent real, potential or apparent conflicts from arising. They are not to solicit or accept money or gifts; not to assist individuals in their dealings with government in such a way as to compromise their own professional status; not to take advantage of information obtained because of their positions as insiders….

I have other things to say, but I simply wanted to ask the Minister of Finance to table these documents, as requested in the motion.

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his remarks.

Although all 338 members are subject to the Conflict of Interest Code, does my colleague feel that it is important for ministers, who sit on the front benches across the way and who hold important public offices, should be subject to the higher standards set out in the Conflict of Interest Act?

How serious is it for a minister to contravene the law, as the Minister of Finance seems to have done?

Opposition Motion—Minister of Finance's documents submitted to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague. It is a very relevant question. It is unfortunate that the government across the way trivializes it.

I do not want to belittle the work of a member, but the minister is not just a member. Of 338 members, some are called to serve the public in a more active way and have more authority. The finance minister must respect the law and be beyond reproach.

It bothers me to see the government across the way try to defend the indefensible. The Government’s attitude, trivializing this situation, is unacceptable. The rules apply to everyone and the Minister of Finance must be beyond reproach. What is dangerous, in his case, is that he can personally benefit from his decisions. That is what experts are trying more and more to show us, and I think that the truth is starting to come out.