House of Commons Hansard #237 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was finance.

Topics

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear!

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Joël Lightbound Liberal Louis-Hébert, QC

They say hear, hear, but the guy who invented the TFSA said this was ludicrous and would put the state in a fiscal straightjacket. At the time, that was what the Conservatives wanted, because they do not want the state to make sure that inequalities are not on the rise, or provide for the essential services that Canadians need. They think that no government is good government, which is why a fiscal straightjacket was good enough. Joe Oliver at the time said it was a problem for “...Stephen Harper’s granddaughter” to solve. We are not leaving any problem for anybody's granddaughter or grandson to solve.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to be splitting my time with my colleague from Cowichan—Malahat—Langford.

Let us start where we need to start, which is at the beginning.

Let us begin with the motion moved by the member for Carleton:

That the House agree with the Prime Minister’s statement in the House on November 1, 2017, that “sunshine is the best disinfectant”; and call on the Finance Minister to reveal all assets he has bought, sold or held within all his private companies....

This kind of thing happens because a loophole in the Conflict of Interest Act makes it possible for the minister not to be considered in conflict of interest if he holds his shares in a private numbered corporation, which is what the ultra-rich do. However, let us consider this statement by the Prime Minister about his ministers:

...the Ethical Guidelines...apply to you and your staff. As noted in the Guidelines, you must uphold the highest standards of honesty and impartiality, and both the performance of your official duties and the arrangement of your private affairs should bear the closest public scrutiny.

It is bizarre that we should have to spend the day on a debate to help the Liberals keep a Liberal promise. That is our intention, and this is an opportunity for the Liberals and the Minister of Finance in particular to save their reputation.

We are simply asking the minister to keep the promise that he and the Prime Minister made to all Canadians to ensure that his private affairs can bear the closest public scrutiny.

We are spending the entire day trying to help Liberals out. It is not an easy thing to do sometimes, because it is correcting bad behaviour. We do not have to do it once, but over and over again, because there is a certain amount of recidivism when we are talking about Liberals and the Liberal culture when it comes to ethics.

Canadians have seen this movie before. The Liberals are entitled to their entitlements. The concern I have is that this finance minister does not even understand that he has done something wrong. It is not just that he has done something wrong with the introduction of a bill that personally helped him and his company, but it is that he does not see any problem with that.

Not only is the behaviour itself bad—the decisions that were made initially not just by the finance minister but by the Prime Minister's Office and the Prime Minister's staff—in breaking faith with Canadians, but after that faith was broken, and it was revealed publicly, the finance minister stands up day after day and asks what the problem is. He is just under investigation by the Ethics Commissioner, he has already had to pay a fine for his French villa, and he says he is moving on; he has no problem here, and why should anybody else?

Having faith in the finance minister is important for Parliament and important for all Canadians, because it is such a powerful position. I think it is important to read out the promise that we are trying to help the Liberals keep today, because it is a promise that the Prime Minister himself made. He came in on a white stallion of integrity and was going to bring forth a new era in Canadian politics and integrity. Here is what the Prime Minister told Canadians, and demanded of all of his ministers, including the finance minister:

...you must uphold the highest standards of honesty and impartiality, and both the performance of your official duties and the arrangement of your private affairs should bear the closest public scrutiny.

We found out that the finance minister's shares in Morneau Shepell totalled, depending on the date, some $32 million, and when he eventually sold them, they were worth between $6 million and $12 million more. Liberals talk about the personal sacrifices the finance minister has made, but I would love to make a personal sacrifice for which I gained $6 million to $12 million. Most Canadians would love the idea of that being the definition of personal sacrifice: being forced under public pressure to make $12 million profit. I am sorry if we do not hand out Kleenex for the tears that Canadians are shedding for the finance minister, who may have just cleared between $6 million and $12 million profit. It is tough to be him, I guess.

The notion is this, though. It only came to light because journalists dug through records to find out that he was still controlling these shares. They were in a numbered company in Alberta. There is a loophole in the ethics code that has never been exploited before, to my knowledge, because no one thought of it, I guess, where, if he took the shares he owned in Morneau Shepell and simply moved them into a numbered company in Alberta, even though all of the profits would still eventually go to him, and him alone, that was no longer considered a conflict of interest. That is a shell game.

Canadians sitting back and watching this ask who made the money, and we say he did. That seems like a conflict of interest, because he introduced Bill C-27 that directly helped out Morneau Shepell, in which he still had tens of millions of dollars of shares. That seems wrong. If the health minister introduced a bill while still owning pharmaceutical shares worth tens of millions of dollars that helped out that pharmaceutical company, we would scream foul. The finance minister gets up day after day and says the opposition is obsessed with him. He is under a conflict of interest investigation.

It was revealed only after the media dug into his personal accounts, in ways that they could, to find out about the French villa that was in a numbered company that he forgot about. It was only because the media dug into public and semi-private records that they found out he was still controlling shares in Morneau Shepell worth millions of dollars while regulating the pension industry. Hold that thought for a moment. He worked in the pension industry, his company made profits in the pension industry, and he moved into public life to serve the public. He maintains millions of dollars of shares in a pension company while being the regulator of the pension industry, and the finance minister does not see a potential conflict of interest.

Today, we have a motion on which the entire day in the House will be spent asking the Liberals to simply do this: to keep their promise about public scrutiny. It does not end with the Morneau Shepell Bill C-27 affair. We know the finance minister has at least five other numbered companies, the contents of which we know nothing about. The very first test he faced on whether we should trust him or not was around introducing Bill C-27. He failed the test. The Ethics Commissioner is now investigating him because he failed that test. She believes there is enough evidence to launch that investigation.

When it was revealed that the finance minister was going under this investigation, his office tried to spin it and say it was not an investigation, that it was just an examination. That is what his office said. Lo and behold, we found out there is no difference, because in the ethics act the only word for it is “examination”. Liberals are in a hole and they just keep on digging. In fact, I think they went out and bought a bigger shovel.

Never mind that Morneau Shepell, as revealed through an access to information request, still maintains 171 contracts with the federal government. It has contracts valued at $53 million with the federal government while the finance minister maintains shares in Morneau Shepell. It is a minefield of conflicts of interest all over the place, in every decision he is making. One would have thought that if he wanted to keep his promise, knowing all of his personal affairs would bear the fullest public scrutiny, he would have divested.

That a cabinet minister sitting in Donald Trump's cabinet cannot do what this finance minister has done should cause Canadians some alarm. People in cabinet working for the President of the United States, even the current president, have to divest themselves of their interests. Otherwise, they will run into conflicts of interest almost every day. The finance minister still has not come clean. He has not revealed to Canadians what he owns or what his interests are. He says we should trust him, he is a good guy. He may be a good guy, but he is doing bad things.

Doing the right thing after getting caught is not exactly the same as doing the right thing, is it? One does not exactly build up trust by saying that now that he has been caught, he will do this, this, and this. The finance minister needs confidence, not just of the Prime Minister but of all Canadians. If he wants to regain confidence, this would all go away, if he just does this. The only person who can make this story end is the finance minister himself, who simply has to keep his promise that he and the Prime Minister made to all Canadians, to tell us what he owns and how he owns it so that Canadians can judge, because that is who we work for.

We all in this place work for the Canadians who sent us here. The finance minister promised that he would reveal what he owns and how he owns it. He, to this day, has not done that. The only record that we have is his dealing with a pension bill that would directly help out his company. Only after he got caught did he beget generosity toward charities and donate the profits, and we still do not even know how he did that and if he is getting a tax receipt for that. I ask the Liberals to come now, join with us, come into the light, let the sun shine in, and tell us what he owns and how he owns it.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Mr. Speaker, as usual the member adds to the debate; he adds more information but also an interesting perspective.

I want him to reflect on this. What we are going to hear from the members of Parliament on the Liberal side of the House today will be speeches of justification. They will say that everything is okay; the fine is okay, and the behaviour of the Minister of Finance for the past two years is just okay because look at how well the economy is doing and look at all these wonderful social programs, and that is okay. Then the Minister of Finance swept some of those bread crumbs off of the table into his pocket. I would like the member to reflect on that and whether it is okay to justify such behaviour in the House and to bring the entire political class and every single member of Parliament in this House into disrepute because of that.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, where I come from, northwestern British Columbia, our word is our bond. If people want to be in business and if they want to be a good member of the community, how they conduct themselves and the promises they make matter because people have to judge them on that and have that only to judge them on.

The finance minister and all ministers in this cabinet made a promise to Canadians when they swore an oath and came into cabinet that they would reveal what they owned and how they owned it. That is exactly the commitment that is in his mandate letter. Liberals talk about mandate letters all the time. They probably will not talk about this part of the mandate letter today. I would challenge, invite, and encourage a Liberal today to talk about that promise about full public disclosure. If the Liberals believe that is true, if they believe those mandate letters matter at all, and if they believe their words matter at all then they should be the ones, more than anybody else, encouraging the finance minister to come forward and tell us what he owns because his word matters. Canadians need to be able to trust somebody who runs a $330-billion budget of somebody else's money each and every year.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:25 a.m.

Eglinton—Lawrence Ontario

Liberal

Marco Mendicino LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, I wish I could thank my hon. colleague, whom I know, for his comments this morning. It is his presentation and all of the rhetoric that informs it that debase this place. The notion that the finance minister got into politics for any reason other than to help the people of his community, to help the people of this country, and to do the hard work that is necessary to achieve those objectives is absolutely ludicrous. It is what lowers the quality of debate in this House. My hon. colleague knows better because he knows the finance minister and he works with him in collaboration, so to hear him string together the tissues of nonsense that we have had to endure over the last couple of months is regrettable.

The finance minister, as has been pointed out on numerous occasions, has worked with the Ethics Commissioner. He will continue to do so as part of the due diligence of meeting the high standards of integrity and ethics that are demanded by the people.

What I want to know is whether the hon. member is prepared to restore the level of debate that is becoming of politics and is becoming of the priorities that matter to Canadians. When is the member going to talk about the economy? Why does he not join us on a debate on national housing? Let us hear that debate come back to this House.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, the debate today is about those standards and those ethical standards that the finance minister committed to. Allow me to finish.

The finance minister said to all Canadians that he would disclose his personal holdings to the fullest public scrutiny. That is what he promised. In order for him to do his work that my friend talks about, the minister needs to have the trust of Canadians. He has still not kept his promise. The member talked about debasing and rhetoric. There is nothing I said today that is not fact. The minister owned the shares and, correct me if I am wrong, he let it be known to my friend and to others in the Liberal Party that he put those in a blind trust. Morneau Shepell thought those were in a blind trust. Only because journalists found out that they were not, did we find out that this was not true. He had allowed a lie to exist for two years and now he says, “trust me, I am a good guy”.

I actually do not know the finance minister, to correct my friend. I have never had a conversation with him. He may be the nicest guy in the world. It does not matter. Does he understand that conduct is what matters and promises are what matter? He broke his promise and continues to break it each and every day when he hides his personal assets. He promised and the entire government promised, when they stepped into cabinet, full public disclosure of their personal assets. My friend knows this to be true because it is in the mandate letters; I will send him a copy. The finance minister still has not done it; the member knows that to be true. He can call that rhetoric if he wants, but he knows those are facts.

Any time he wants to come back at me with some facts, I would welcome the debate because that is what raises the tone and level of debate in this House, not just spitting out tissues of facts. These are all facts I stated. I would welcome the member to join the debate on facts.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Mr. Speaker, I know this is going to be a difficult day for my Liberal colleagues because this is the role of Parliament and sometimes we have to discuss things that they do not want us to talk about.

There are two parts to the Conservatives' motion today. The first part calls upon the House to agree with the Prime Minister's statement in the House on November 1, that “sunshine is the best disinfectant”. I believe he was responding to a question from my hon. colleague from Hochelaga. This is a very widely known proverb, but the origins are less well known. The proverb is actually derived from the quote, “sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants” which is attributed to Louis Brandeis, an associate justice of the Supreme Court of the United States.

In 1914, he published a series of essays under the title Other People's Money and How the Bankers Use It, in which he harshly criticized investment bankers who control large amounts of money deposited in their banks by middle-class people, the very people who will be harmed if Bill C-27 is passed.

The quote in question is found in chapter 5, “What publicity can do”. It was used in support of regulation to disclosure obligations, which is precisely what we are trying to accomplish in the House today. There is a delicious sort of irony here. The Liberal Prime Minister, who leads a party and a government that have traditionally been very friendly to Canada's big banks, who refused to do anything to tackle their business practices, including how they sell their financial products and the exorbitant fees they levy as service charges on middle-class Canadians, this same Prime Minister has unwittingly quoted a man who is very harshly critical of those same banks.

We know Morneau Shepell is getting quite concerned by all of the bad press it is receiving. It has basically become a household name in Canadian political discourse now. It has actually reached out to friends in the Financial Post. Yesterday it published an article in which it reported that Morneau Shepell rejects the suggestion that Bill C-27 would generate of flood of business for it, because guess what? There are many suppliers of pension services and the added business would not at all be significant. The article then relies on the fact that Morneau Shepell shares actually dipped in value a few weeks after Bill C-27 was introduced, as if this made it all okay for the finance minister to have owned shares in it in the first place because he would have lost some money.

That is really all the article can do as a defence because it then proceeds to do a hit job on the union leaders who are, surprise, surprise, going out and standing up for their members in advocating against the very thing that Bill C-27 is trying to do. That is really the only defence possible because this is an indefensible situation that we are in.

I find it very helpful for members in this place and for my constituents in Cowichan—Malahat—Langford to really go to the crux of the matter. It has to do with a very important piece of federal legislation, the Conflict of Interest Act. I will read, starting with section 4:

For the purposes of this Act, a public office holder is in a conflict of interest when he or she exercises an official power, duty or function that provides an opportunity to further his or her private interests or those of his or her relatives...

It also says under section 5 that:

Every public office holder shall arrange his or her private affairs in a manner that will prevent the public office holder from being in a conflict of interest.

It is all spelled out quite clearly under the legislation and it is unfortunate that members on the government side seem to have some trouble understanding why we are debating this very issue today. The government's publication “An Open and Accountable Government” states quite clearly that:

Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries must act with honesty and uphold the highest ethical standards so that public confidence and trust in the integrity and impartiality of government are maintained and enhanced.

Moreover, they have an obligation to perform their official duties and arrange their private affairs in a manner that will bear the closest public scrutiny. This obligation is not fully discharged merely by acting within the law.

Those are not my words; those are the government's words. The Liberals can rely on the defence that they are complying with the commissioner and the act, but they are ignoring the fact the spirit of the law has been completely trampled upon.

We are all very well aware of the Prime Minister's mandate letters to each of his ministers, in which these tenets were upheld and even pushed.

Because of the opposition's line of questioning during question period and by bringing forward this motion today, some Liberals accuse members of the opposition of launching personal attacks. That is a complete deflection from the issue at hand. The role of Parliament, one of its most important roles, is to hold government to account.

I want to refer to a quote from the great Stanley Knowles, who gave a great speech to the Empire Club in 1957. He said:

The Parliament of this country, elected by free men and women on the basis of free discussions which cannot be abrogated, is not just a club of good fellows who ought to do the nation's business in the shortest...time and with the least possible contention; rather it is a body which should examine every proposal...to make sure that it is in the country's best interest; it is a body in which attention should be drawn to proposals that ought to be made but which are often overlooked, unless an election is just around the corner; it is a body which should scrutinize expenditures and inquire into the administration of public affairs to make sure that fairness, justice and equity are maintained.

I will let that hang in the air for a moment. That is precisely what we are doing today.

We operate by a system of responsible government, where the executive branch of the Liberal government sits within the legislature, and it can only continue to do its function with the support of the legislature. It is responsible to us, and we hold lines of inquires to ensure that ministers of the crown are living up to their fullest obligations possible. This is a very legitimate line of questioning and the government is deflecting by going over all the great things it has been doing. If the government is so happy with those great things, I invite a minister of the crown to move the appropriate motion so we can have that debate on a different day. The motion before us today is what we are debating, and it goes directly to the finance minister's conduct.

I believe my colleague from Skeena—Bulkley Valley mentioned that this was a time when both the finance minister and Prime Minister were under investigation. The very fact that they engaged in activities that led to the investigations in the first place should be very troubling.

I want to refer all hon. members from the government's side to the second part of the motion before us today, which reads, “and call on the Finance Minister to reveal all assets he has bought, sold or held within all his private companies or trust funds since he became Finance Minister, to determine if his financial interests have conflicted with his public duties.”

When we ask questions of the government, we see a lot of glum faces on Liberal backbenchers as they have to listen to this finance minister day after day try to defend the indefensible. They may not see it from their point of view, but in the opposition we see the reactions of the Liberals. They know this is a tough position to defend.

I would like to end with a reference to “sunny ways”. The Liberal leader Wilfrid Laurier proposed that a diplomatic sunny way would work better, and he used an illustration of Aesop's fable in which the sun and the wind held a contest to see who could remove a traveller's coat. The sun's warm rays proved more effective to the wind's bluster. If the Liberals truly believe in sunlight being the best disinfectant, I call upon them to use their sunny ways to remove the finance minister's coat of silence so we, as the people's representatives, can truly have confidence in his role.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the hon. member something that has been touched upon a number of times in debate today; that perhaps the finance minister is incapable of recognizing his ethical responsibilities. That is why he is in a conflict situation.

We know the finance minister was born into great wealth and he married into great wealth. He has lived a life in a rarified atmosphere to which the overwhelming majority of Canadians cannot relate. The company which bears his name, Morneau Shepell, specializes, among other things, in offshore tax avoidance. One of the family yachts, the motor vessel “Playpen”, does not fly the Canadian flag. It is registered in the Marshall Islands to avoid the obligations, responsibilities, and laws to which most recreational boat owners in Canada submit themselves.

Does my colleague believe the finance minister simply believes himself to be above the responsibilities to which all the members in the House submit themselves, with a notable exception being the Prime Minister?

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Mr. Speaker, for everyone who enters public life, it sometime can seem like quite a jolt to the system. I come from the other end of the spectrum. I did not come from an area of great wealth. When I entered office and was told of my obligations, I found them pretty easy to follow. Whenever I had a question, I had people around me who were much more knowledgeable and could fill in the blanks.

I am very surprised that the finance minister, with all of his political staff, the entire staff of the Prime Minister's office, and Finance Canada at their disposal, missed the fact that this could be problem. I do not see how it is possible. Perhaps the minister is not used to the fact that disclosure is an integral part of public life. I think he is well aware of it now. That is why we call upon him to honour the spirit of what we are trying to get to today.

We want to know that during his time as finance minister he was not in a conflict of interest, so he may continue his role to bear to the utmost possible scrutiny.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, the member across the way and the Minister of Finance have something in common, as all of us do. Once we are elected, we have an obligation to report our assets to the Conflict of Interest Commissioner. Each and everyone of us has that responsibility. One of the reasons we do that is because at times this chamber becomes very partisan.

To ensure Canadians are best served with respect to the issue of conflict of interest, we have an independent Ethics Commissioner. The member would have disclosed his assets, whatever they might be. I will not be critical of one member of Parliament over another because someone may have more assets than another, but the principle is the same.

Why does the member believe the rules we have been operating under for over 10 years are not good enough today? If he believes that, why do the NDP not move a motion to change those rules?

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Mr. Speaker, I believe we did that at the ethics committee. However, I will note that there is a small difference between me and the finance minister. I do not regulate companies that are in control of the nation's finances.

This is about living up to the letter of the law. We have evidence before us that while the finance minister was involved in the pension industry, he held shares in a company that he regulated, and then introduced a bill which could benefit that company and the shares he held in it. I have constituents who right away would see that as a conflict of interest. The fact that this is an ethical blind spot for the Liberals remains very troubling to me and to many Canadians.

We are calling upon the the finance minister to do the right thing, show some leadership, disclose his financial obligations, so he may continue in his role without this cloud of suspicion hanging over him.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Beauport—Limoilou.

Trust is earned when actions meet words. It is unfortunate that today we are here in the House having to call out the finance minister for breaking the trust of Canadians.

The Prime Minister and the finance minister arguably are the two most important, powerful officials in government. We as parliamentarians and, more important, Canadians must be able to trust that they will act in the public interest rather than in their own private interest. As the Prime Minister has said “sunshine is the best disinfectant”. Therefore, let us lift up the rug, throw open the doors, and reveal what is in all those numbered companies the finance minister has set up in various provinces.

The Liberals clearly are not very comfortable talking about this topic. Either at town halls or through correspondence and phone calls, they have had to defend the bad life decisions the minister has made.

For folks at home wondering why we are having this debate, it is because Canada is not a backward country where elected officials get to live off the largesse of the office they hold. When the actions of a minister of the crown are in dispute, the minister has a moral duty to provide the information needed to uphold the trust bestowed unto him or her by Canadians, but also to the overall institution.

Parliament is bigger than any one minister. Regardless of one's self-appointed importance, the reputation of all of us is at risk due to the mistakes of one individual, particularly when the circumstances of the incident are as serious as this. Politicians should not personally benefit from the office they hold. Ministers of the crown are fairly compensated for the work they do on behalf of Canadians. They do not need to set up numbered companies that are designed in such a manner as to avoid giving up control of their assets.

We are here because the Minister of Finance did not live up to his mandate letter. To quote the mandate letter from the Prime Minister, it said the following:

...you.... must uphold the highest standards of honesty and impartiality, and both the performance of your official duties and the arrangement of your private affairs should bear the closest public scrutiny. This is an obligation that is not fully discharged by simply acting within the law.

We are here because the minister thought, in some twisted world, that he could have his cake and eat it too. His actions in this ethical quagmire do not live up to the standards to which ministers of the crown should aspire. The Minister of Finance has clearly broken the spirit of the conflict of interest rules. There is no ambiguity about that. He said that he was going to put his assets in a blind trust, but conveniently did not. Regardless of whatever lame excuse or spin the government tries to use today to defend the minister, it does not pass the smell test. No one is buying it.

His approvals ratings have dramatically dropped and the Liberals' narrative of fighting for the middle class is not even believed on the pages of the Toronto Star anymore. We know a Liberal minister is in trouble when the Toronto Star starts criticizing his or her behaviour.

This bad news is taking a toll on the minister's public approval. According to a new poll, he is now the most negatively received member of the Prime Minister's cabinet. Forty-six per cent of those who knew of him gave the finance minister the thumbs down, while 23% said that he had done a good job in his position so far.

For the benefit of all members, those numbers are even lower than President Trump's approval in the United States. Furthermore, if the finance minister continues to drag the government down with him, he will soon find himself joining his former colleagues John McCallum and Stéphane Dion doing the embassy cocktail circuit with the prefix “His Excellency” added to his to business card.

That is where we find ourselves today. The ethical pyramid that has been constructed has come crashing down and the Minister of Finance has no one to blame for this but himself. Time and again, he has avoided doing the right thing, which is, for a start, to apologize.

For two years, the finance minister held shares worth approximately $20 million in Morneau Shepell, a company he regulates. He held these shares outside of a blind trust, despite his own colleagues believing his shares were in a blind trust.

Right after being sworn in as finance minister he spoke to the CBC. It was in that interview where he said, “I've resigned my position as chair of the firm that I was chair of before. I expect that all my assets will go into a blind trust.” Well, it turns out that this did not happen. His assets were not placed in a blind trust, but were set up in an elaborate way that still allowed him to control them in a numbered company in Alberta. Only after it was revealed that the finance minister was not holding his assets in a blind trust did he acknowledge his wrongdoing and agree to sell those assets. He continues to hold several numbered companies, but the assets held within those companies are not publicly known.

While he held these shares, the finance minister also introduced Bill C-27, which would create targeted benefit pension plans. We also know that benefit pension plans are a highly specialized product offered by Morneau Shepell. In this regard, it has just been announced that the Ethics Commissioner has launched an investigation into the minister's involvement with Bill C-27, particularly as his shares in Morneau Shepell rose in value after the legislation was announced.

These are the facts that the Liberal member for Eglinton—Lawrence just called “tissues of nonsense”. These costly mistakes have tarnished the minister's reputation and, from media reports, will end up costing him roughly $5 million dollars after his assets are divested.

For someone who is as educated and successful as he is, it boggles the mind how he could have thought his actions were ethical. Even the most casual political observer would have recognized that the Minister of Finance should not have control over his assets, which would surely be impacted by the decisions he would make in office.

In this debate today we will ask the finance minister to reveal all of the assets he has bought, sold, or held within all of his private companies or trust funds since being sworn in. We are calling for this information to be revealed to determine if his financial interests have conflicted with his public duties.

Now the Liberals may try to shrug this off and pretend this debate is not happening. In fact, I suspect that many will not even try to defend the finance minister's ethical lapses. They know they cannot defend the indefensible. They can bob and weave during question period and avoid answering the tough questions, but if they tried for one moment to do this with their constituents back home, the latters' wrath and fury would surely be quick to follow.

Today, many members will lay out the argument why this motion should pass. Members will hear why the Minister of Finance should do the right thing and begin the process of revealing what he has bought and sold since he became the finance minister. Then and only then can we be sure that he did not personally financially gain from the decisions he has made while in office.

To my friends in the Liberal Party, this is their chance to stand up and demand better from those who govern us. Regardless of political stripe, I think we can all admit that the Minister of Finance has been less than forthcoming with Canadians. If the shoes were on the other feet, many of the MPs who sit across from us today would be in an uproar over what has transpired over these past two years. From secret villas to numbered companies to legislation that will financially benefit the minister's bank account, this paints a very troubling picture.

I call on every MP to demand better. Demand that the Prime Minister be held to his word. Demand that ministers be held to a higher standard than finding a loophole and then proclaiming their innocence.

Canadians are smarter than to fall for the claptrap that is far too often peddled. We know in our guts that what has become known is not only morally unacceptable, but also very clearly in breach of the law. Trust takes years to build, seconds to break, and forever to repair.

The very least the finance minister could do is to be transparent and forthcoming with Canadians.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Brandon—Souris for his speech.

Knowing him to be a good and sensible man, I wonder if he does not find it sad to see the number of government MPs, or lack thereof, here in the House. We are currently talking about their Minister of Finance and, if I am not mistaken, I see three Liberal MPs. No, there are not even three, there are only two. That is great—

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

Order. I would remind the hon. member that he ought not to make reference to the absence or presence of other members in the House.

The hon. member for Longueuil—Saint-Hubert.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Mr. Speaker, I apologize for making what I felt was a harmless comment on the government's lack of interest in today's debate.

It is really sad, because these same people kept saying that they were going to do politics differently. They kept saying that they would be the sunshine to disinfect the wounds of a government that was disconnected from the public.

Today, we can plainly see that the Minister of Finance is not at all concerned about all the public cynicism. That is probably what is doing the most damage. Whether his accounts grew by $2 million or $12 million, the worst thing he did was dampen the public's enthusiasm and feed their cynicism.

I would like my colleague's thoughts on this. I know his work is important to him. We find it demoralizing when people say that they have no use for politics, the Minister of Finance, or the very system itsel.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, my colleague is quite right. The government wants to talk about sunny ways, but there is a huge cloud hanging over the whole government these days.

Canadians know about it, and we hear about it every day in phone calls, emails, and messages from them. Maybe it will turn into a thunderstorm. There have been a lot of lightning strikes over there in regard to some of the efforts by the minister to defuse some of the obvious things I cited today, which he has been charged with, found guilty of, and paid a fine for.

There is a huge vacuous absence of policy by the government now, which is trying to do things that will happen some decades down the road. It is even the case in the debate today. I was listening to it in my office before I came to give my speech. I heard my hon. colleague from York—Simcoe trying to bring some relevance to the House in response to some of the speeches by the Liberals trying to defend the minister today. The minister's name, or the whole situation, never even entered into the discussion of the Liberals. It proves they are embarrassed by this situation the finance minister has gotten them into. It is also a fact that he is not even able to honest with his own Prime Minister.

As I said in my speech, these are the two most important people in government. Who can Canadians trust?

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

Noon

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I posed a question regarding former Prime Minister Stephen Harper to the member who introduced the motion we are debating today.

Canadians need to be aware that the opposition parties are happily working together on this particular issue. What they are implying and trying to say is that Stephen Harper's rules, the same rules that we live by, are not good enough. In fact, all 338 members of Parliament are expected by abide the very same rules that Stephen Harper had to abide by.

We have seen an extreme politicization of this issue. Both opposition parties are working hand in hand on the issue. Does my colleague across the way recognize that it is important for us to have confidence in the Ethics Commissioner's office? We on this side of the House do. Does the Conservative Party have confidence in the Ethics Commissioner's office?

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

Noon

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the member for Winnipeg North raised that issue, because I have the utmost confidence in the Ethics Commissioner's office. I do not have any confidence in Minister of Finance's ethics in regard to what I talked about in my speech today, including the things he has already paid a fine for.

One thing about Stephen Harper we can be sure about is that he left a surplus for the Canadian public, and the Liberal government is running $30 billion deficits every year. The Liberals never talk about the fact that he reduced the debt, never mind the deficit by $30 billion in his first two years in government, before the 2008 recession hit.

The member can stand up and talk about rules all he wants, but what about accountability? If he wants to talk about the opposition working together, then, yes, we are. Why would we not? This is one of the most unethical situations I have ever seen in government, and I have been in it for 17 or 18 years now. I feel strongly that we are not only working together as the opposition, but are working with Canadians.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

Noon

Conservative

Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Mr. Speaker, a lot of people in Beauport—Limoilou are listening to us right now, and I want to say hello to them.

Our political system is a parliamentary democracy. I believe that it is the best system in the world, and I think all members of the House would agree.

In this system, ministerial responsibility is the most important thing we carry out every day, primarily in question period and through opposition days like today. Ministerial responsibility was acquired as a result of long debates and long military campaigns.

Les Patriotes were not all French Canadians; they included some English Canadians, too. They fought in the 1820s and 1830s to obtain ministerial responsibility, which the British monarchy and British Parliament granted us with the Act of Union, creating a united Canada in 1841.

What we are doing today with our opposition day is exercising that ministerial responsibility and ensuring that it is fulfilled. One of the ways this is done is through investigative journalism, which is very important and which we on this side of the House take very seriously. In fact, with the help of its sponsor here, the member for Louis-Saint-Laurent, a senator in the other place managed to get a bill passed that provides greater protection to whistleblowers and the confidential sources of investigative journalism.

What have investigative journalists discovered in recent months? The Minister of Finance did three things, or overlooked three things, or made three serious mistakes.

Need we remind members that the finance minister is second in command in the Government of Canada. He is second in command not because he is more important than other ministers, but it can still be argued that a country's finances are critical given their implications for education, health, and the well-being of Canadians. For that reason, the position of finance minister is held in high regard and the incumbent must do everything possible to ensure that Canadians' confidence in the minister is never in doubt or undermined.

Unfortunately, the three things that the finance minister did in two years, which were reported by investigative journalists in recent months, have slowly and surely undermined Canadians' confidence in the minister.

In my view, the attitude, behaviour, and actions of all members in their day-to-day activities both inside and outside the House must always be guided by three principles: a sense of duty, a sense of responsibility, and a sense of honour.

I urge my Liberal colleagues to listen carefully. The Minister of Finance, like all of us, had the solemn, legal duty to disclose his assets to the Ethics Commissioner right away. He had six months to do so, using a form that is pretty easy to fill out. It may have been more difficult for him, since he has so many assets. However, he had a duty to disclose all of his assets, in black and white, clearly and openly, leaving no doubt and leaving nothing out. He had a duty, and he did not properly fulfill it. I will get back to this and explain why.

The minister also had the responsibility, and still does today, to inform the Ethics Commissioner of any changes to his personal situation throughout his term. Such changes would include a new acquisition, a boat in the Bahamas, or, who knows, a second villa in France.

As a member of Parliament, I receive updates from the Ethics Commissioner reminding me of my responsibility and duty to disclose any new assets, throughout my term. For example, I recently declared that I purchased a home for my lovely little family; I was happy to do so. All members of Parliament have this responsibility.

In my opinion, however, honour is even more important than duty or responsibility. When members of Parliament are guided by a sense a honour, their actions are naturally guided by a sense of duty and responsibility. The Minister of Finance failed in his duty and his responsibility as an elected official, minister, and member of Cabinet over the past two years, and I will talk about this failure in a few seconds. Unfortunately for him and for this government, he sullied his honour.

First, two years ago, when he was made to fill out the much-discussed form disclosing his assets, interests, and so on to the Ethics Commissioner, he forgot, nay, omitted to declare a company incorporated in France that owns a luxurious villa in Provence in the south of France. I imagine it is very luxurious and quite expensive. That is unbelievable.

I have here a public notice of penalty issued under the authority of the Conflict of Interest Act. This is not a joke. These are not allegations or opposition attacks. This is fact. The Ethics Commissioner issued a penalty just a few weeks ago and fined the Minister of Finance $200 for violating paragraphs 22(2)(a) and 22(2)(d) of the Conflict of Interest Act by failing to include in a confidential report a corporation established in France and an estimate of its value and, crucially, by failing to include in the report his directorship in that corporation. This is serious business.

The Minister of Finance, an important businessman from Bay Street in Toronto who manages a huge family business, somehow forgot to report that asset in France, although he claims it was just an administrative oversight. That is a first. This actually happened; he paid the fine. He was caught and had to face the music, although only administratively. Of course, these are not criminal charges. That was his first dereliction of duty and breach of Canadian laws, the first stain on his reputation, and the first thing that shook Canadians' confidence in him.

On top of that, he did not put his shares in Morneau Shepell, worth $20 million, in a blind trust. He hid them in a numbered company in Alberta and has made millions on them over the past two years. Thank goodness he donated it to charity. It was the least he could do, but he still has not apologized and he refuses to talk about the fact that he has been violating the spirit of the law over the past year.

Lastly, he is once again being investigated by the Ethics Commissioner regarding a conflict of interest, because he introduced Bill C-27, which makes changes to pension plans and will benefit the family business started by his father. He is therefore in a direct conflict of interest, he failed in his duty and his responsibilities, and his honour is besmirched.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

Madam Speaker, I listened closely to the member's dissertation, and I have several concerns.

First, this gives me an opportunity to say that I have enjoyed working with my colleague the Minister of Finance, and I have absolutely no reason to doubt any of his decisions or his integrity on any issue. I am pleased to call him a colleague. I am pleased to call him an hon. member.

Second, I do have a concern both with the motion today and with the member's speech. I am hearing specious arguments and some rather outrageous claims that are not based on fact. I know that is the opposition's role, and I have been in opposition and I understand that, but what I am looking for today is very clear. Does the member support the current rules, which I believe have been followed completely by the Minister of Finance, or is the member actually saying that the rules fall short? If they fall short, is he or his party actually suggesting some changes to our conflict of interest guidelines, and how could he make a positive contribution to this debate?

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Madam Speaker, I mean, the facts could not be clearer. The minister has not divulged to the Ethics Commissioner his holdings and the value of his holdings; for example, the villa in France. He has not divulged this. He did not say that he had, up until last month, $20 million worth of shares in Morneau Shepell hiding in a numbered company in Alberta. He did not say that in the past months when he was putting together a proposed law that would directly benefit three specialized enterprises or companies that work for pension plans in Canada, one being Morneau Shepell, which he owned until he was minister.

The member said that there are no facts, but there are facts. There was a penalty of $200 from the Ethics Commissioner. It is significant.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

Madam Speaker, the Liberals across the way talk about going by the rules, hiding behind the Ethics Commissioner.

I used to sit on the Environmental Appeal Board in British Columbia and the Forest Appeals Commission. When I took on those roles, I was sent off to a kind of judging school for a week. We had judges come in and tell us how to act in those hearings, because we were essentially acting as judges. One of the really important parts of that training was to recognize when we were in a conflict of interest. I remember the judge telling us that the general rule or legal test for a conflict of interest that we had to go by was called something like the sidewalk smell test—I forget the exact name—where if we walked up to someone on the sidewalk and explained the situation, they would say whether there was a conflict of interest.

I would like the member to comment on that and whether, if he walked up to people on the sidewalk in Canada and said that we have a finance minister who holds shares in a company of his own, which is benefiting from his own decisions, that would be a conflict of interest.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Madam Speaker, yes, that is the case. I can confirm for the hon. member that last week, when we were all in our ridings, I met many constituents who all told me that it is outrageous, and that it is even more outrageous to see the Minister of Finance acting as if nothing was outrageous.

There is a clear conflict of interest here, and we should always remind Canadians that the Prime Minister sent a mandate letter to each minister stating in the first paragraph that not only did he want them to follow precisely each article of the law, and most concerning is this one today of the Ethics Commissioner, but he said to go above and beyond the spirit of the law. Well, I can say that the minister went above and beyond physically by putting all his shares in a hiding company in Alberta. He has put together an action that brings a great distrust of the government from the Canadian people. As the opposition, we have the duty, the responsibility, and the honour to hold the minister to account.

Opposition Motion—Finance Minister's assetsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, I will pick up on the answer that my colleague just provided. When I sat in opposition, the Harper government made the decision to virtually kill the Canadian Wheat Board. It was taking away the monopoly. If we look at and reflect on many of the Conservatives who are here today and who sit on the opposite side, the issue back then was this. When I went out to rural Manitoba, on occasion individuals would come to me and ask how the Conservatives could get rid of the Canadian Wheat Board when many of them farm wheat. It is a legitimate question. People would ask if Conservative MPs who were farming wheat or were farmers should be able to get rid of the Canadian Wheat Board. I guess it is a legitimate question.

In Canada we have established the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. What we have seen over the last while is the Conservatives and members of the NDP, not only on this agenda item but on previous ones also, work together more and more to attack the government. That is fine. If they want to do that, it is completely their call. However, I would suggest that there appears to be at least one, and I would suspect other, political entities in this chamber who would clearly demonstrate confidence in that office. That is what I would like to talk about today. I want to highlight the fact that, whenever there has been an opportunity for the Conservatives to be critical of this Minister of Finance, they have jumped all over it, and more often than not we have the NDP members tagging along, joining them in their opposition. I would like to give some examples of the types of instances where I believe we have seen that united opposition front, and hopefully the individuals who are listening to or following this debate will have a better appreciation of why we are where we are today.

First off, we need to be very clear. When we are elected, we are obligated to go to the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner to declare our assets. The Minister of Finance is also obligated, like each and every one of us. Contrary to the misinformation from the opposition benches, the Minister of Finance did go to the commissioner to declare, and even the house in France was declared with the office.