Debates of Nov. 30th, 2017

Ethics

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I have to ask the member for Grande Prairie—Mackenzie and others to settle down. This is a hot topic, I realize, but we have to have each side have its turn, and his side will have a turn again, as he knows. I would ask colleagues to remember that and remember where we are and what we owe Canadians in terms of this place and its image.

The hon. Minister of Finance.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, if the member opposite has something he wants to say, if he has an allegation he would like to make, I would ask him to grow some spine, stand up right here in the House, and say it in the House. Say what he means. If he really wants to say something, he should be confident enough to walk outside the House and say it in the foyer. That is the way it works. I would invite them to say whatever it is they want to say.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, Canadians know all too well of guys like the minister who have a lot of money and use that money to make their problems go away. Right now, he is trying to make his problems go away by threatening members of this House of Commons with his high-priced lawyers. I have asked very clear questions of the minister, and I am going to ask one more.

Is it just a coincidence that both he and his father sold millions of dollars worth of shares a week before he introduced tax increases that helped drop the value of those shares?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I want to say that I have a level of disgust for what is going on on the other side of the House. I actually did not know that the member for Carleton could sink any lower. I did not know that was possible, but he has actually taken efforts today to move from me to talk about my family.

If he wants to ask me a question, if he wants to insinuate something about me, he should say it here, he should say it now, and he should say what he means, and then he should move it out to the foyer, because truth matters.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, if the truth matters to the minister, he has an opportunity to tell it. In the 10 days before he introduced tax changes on the floor of this House of Commons that led to the drop of Morneau Shepell shares by roughly 5%, in the ten days prior to introducing those measures, both he and his father sold millions of dollars of shares in Morneau Shepell. Either that was a coincidence, or it was not. Which is it?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I will say it again and again. I did give direction to sell shares when I came into office to arrange my affairs. That was something I did.

What I can say, though, right now, is that I will take absolutely no ethical lesson from someone who actually had a report from the Ethics Commissioner on his desk when he was the minister and did not act on it. I will take no ethical lesson from someone who has been called out by Elections Canada. I will take no ethical lesson from someone who puts his own party out front while he is out using government money. I will take no lessons from him. I will move forward doing the right thing, which I have always done.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the right thing is to actually answer the question. The member is correct that he did reveal that he sold shares. He just did not tell anybody when. I had to dig up the date of the transaction. It turns out that it was November 30, one week before he introduced tax changes on the floor of this House of Commons, which was followed by a drop in the value of his shares. He and his father had sold their shares right before the introduction of those measures.

Again, a simple question. Is that simply a coincidence?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, a simple answer, one that perhaps the member from Carleton will not understand. I did give direction to sell my shares, but the insinuation he is making, I believe, is that something that we announced during the trading day somehow moved markets. He might not understand how markets move, but we did—

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Order. I would ask the Minister of Finance and other members of the House not to suggest that members in this House are not able to understand things.

I know that there is a lot of heat here.

Order. The hon. member for Banff—Airdrie will come to order, or he can go outside or be helped outside. Which would he prefer?

Naming of Member

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Richards, I must name you for disregarding the authority of the Chair.

Pursuant to the powers vested in me under Standing Order 11, I order you to withdraw from the House for the remainder of today's sitting.

[And Mr. Richards having withdrawn:]

Ethics

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, perhaps just a little sense of things that do and do not move markets. When one talks about something for six months, when one announces to 36 million Canadians that one is going to make a change on the top 1%, that would be something we would describe as fully and completely disclosed, much like all of my assets were fully and completely disclosed.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, if one read the Liberal platform, one would think that measure was going to come into effect at the beginning of April. In fact, no revenue was projected in that platform until the beginning of April. Many tax changes do come in in the middle of the calendar year. In fact, the Minister of Finance proposed one last summer that would have come into effect on July 18.

Members of the market did not know exactly the timing of this measure until the minister introduced it on the floor of the House of Commons. Some people apparently did. Who were they?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, just a quick review of the facts. I did, as I have said, give an order to sell some of my shares. We did announce to 36 million Canadians that we were planning on raising taxes for the 1%, which, in fact, we did. We know that in fact, over time, the markets have gone up. It is a clear fact and it is a positive ramification of our economic actions.

If there is something the member opposite would actually like to say, something that is worth saying in the House, he should say it. He should say it in the House. He should be willing to say it outside the House. We are looking forward to hearing it.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, over the past few days the Minister of Finance has challenged us to ask our questions both inside and outside the House. The question I am going to ask him is one that I just asked in the foyer barely five minutes ago.

We just learned that the Minister of Finance's father sold 100,000 Morneau Shepell shares at $15.20 on November 23, 2015. A few days later, on December 3, 2015, the Minister of Finance's father sold another 100,000 shares at $15. Four days later, on December 7, the Minister of Finance made a major announcement that led to a 5% drop in the value of Morneau Shepell shares, which allowed certain people to save tens of thousands of dollars. The question is simple and very clear.

Did anyone know about the minister's announcement before it was made to the public?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, it is rather sad to hear such a question in the House. They have now decided to talk about our families. If the member has a question for me, let him ask me and I will answer.

What I can say is that I have answered every question in the House. If he has something to say or to allege, he should say what he means here and in the foyer too.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure he is listening, so let us try again. Let me repeat inside the House what I just said outside the House. According to Global News, regulatory filings show that William Morneau Sr. sold 200,000 shares in Morneau Shepell before December 3, 2015. Four days later, the finance minister introduced tax changes that dropped the value of Morneau Shepell shares by approximately 5%.

My question for the finance minister is clear and important. Did anyone have knowledge of this tax change and its timing prior to it being made public?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I have two responses. Number one, we told 36 million Canadians that we were planning on raising taxes. Number two, of course no one outside the closed circle within the Department of Finance and those who needed to know within our government would have known about our actions in advance of that date.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in answer to one of my colleagues, the minister said earlier that the finance minister's fiscal measures affect the stock market, and I believe it. He said the market went up after the budget was tabled.

If the finance minister's fiscal measures have an impact, then he knew, on December 7, 2015, that the announcement of his plans to raise taxes would have fiscal implications.

Did he arrange to sell his Morneau Shepell shares on November 30 in order to circumvent these measures?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the answer is no. I decided to sell a few shares when I was elected, and then we did exactly what we said we would do, which was to raise taxes on the wealthiest 1%. Those are the two most important things to understand.

What I can say is that, in the end, our measures are great for Canada and for Canadians. We will continue to work for them.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Minister of Finance. He has just answered, for the first time in this House, the question that we have been asking him for weeks, namely whether he was the person who sold shares in his family business, Morneau Shepell, on November 30, 2015. He says the answer is no.

Is that not what you said?

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I would remind the member that he is to address his comments through the Chair.

The hon. Minister of Finance.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, let me be absolutely clear. I gave direction to sell shares when I came into office, to arrange my affairs. I do not know on what exact date those shares were sold. It might have been on the day suggested. It might have been on another day. I do not know.

What I can say is, most importantly, we gave advance knowledge to 36 million Canadians about our party platform. We moved forward with that platform, and that platform has led to the kind of economic growth that all of us are pleased to see in our country.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Mr. Speaker, we have learned that the finance minister's father sold shares at the same time as the minister, but the finance minister continues to avoid every opportunity to tell us when he sold 680,000 shares in Morneau Shepell. Instead, he has given non-answers and is trying to bully us with threats of dispatching his pricey Bay Street lawyers.

If the finance minister will not come clean and answer the simple question if he sold 680,000 shares in Morneau Shepell two years ago on this day, then he needs to resign.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I do hope that we will get to some questions that matter to Canadians. I have answered questions about this on numerous occasions.

I can say this. We put forth a very clear platform to Canadians. We said we were going to lower middle-class taxes. We said we were going to raise taxes on the one per cent. Canadians understood that. That is why they elected us, and that is why they did not elect the members opposite.

We have moved forward on that and other parts of our platform, which are leading to much better situations for middle-class Canadians and families across this country. We will continue to work for them.