House of Commons Hansard #244 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was terrorist.

Topics

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Madam Speaker, we are reliant on well-trained, rested, ready-to-go RCMP officers who can help Canada deal with the swings of a sudden domestic emergency and are looking out for instances of radicalization right within our communities. We understand, though, that the RCMP is understaffed. There is a lot of burnout, among young recruits in particular. Having been trained federally, they often move to other police forces where the conditions are better. Could the member reassure us that the government is doing everything it can to create good working conditions so our well-trained RCMP are ready to help us in case of emergency?

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Rioux Liberal Saint-Jean, QC

Madam Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for her question and for her interest in security and in ensuring that the RCMP can play its role.

Unfortunately, as she knows, the previous government cut the overall security budget by $1 billion. We have started reinvesting to ensure that we can fully guarantee the safety of all Canadians.

I think my colleague was referring to the Canada Centre for Community Engagement and Prevention of Violence, which works to ensure no one else is indoctrinated.

We are going to continue in that direction. I believe we have a commitment to Canadians to ensure security across the country.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Nanaimo—Ladysmith, Indigenous Affairs; the hon. member for Lethbridge, Taxation; the hon. member for Provencher, Ethics.

Resuming debate. The hon. member for Central Nova.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Madam Speaker, let me begin by saying that I am somewhat frustrated to be involved in this debate today.

The motion on the floor purports to be about the interplay between national security, human rights, and fighting terrorism, to some degree. However, its spirit is to divide Canadians, in my opinion, for political gain by praying on fears. Its effect is to scare Canadians into positions, rather than to engage them in a nuanced debate.

We live in a time in our global history right now of ultra-divisive politics that has seen many issues that were not legitimate policy discussions turn into an exercise in fearmongering designed to secure the support of a political base. Once-healthy democracies across the world have become sick with a virus of anti-intellectualism that is spreading rapidly across our planet.

In the age of social media, the phenomenon is even worse, as individuals prone to one idea or another on various points of the political spectrum more easily find validation in the echo chambers of the Internet. However, we cannot let Canada fall victim to this deeply worrying trend. People need to step away from the computer, find a human being, and talk to each other. They should not get sucked into the kind of nonsense that so many politicians around the world would have them engage in, without informing themselves, without facts.

I cannot let another motion like this, which I believe is designed to spread fear amongst Canadians, go unchallenged. I believe that, at the end of the day, I am responsible as a parliamentarian not only for my own actions and decisions but also for the opportunity, when I have the chance, to confront an injustice and not choose to stand idly by instead.

I will not be supporting the motion on the floor of the House of Commons.

Over the course of my remarks, I hope to cover a few themes. First is the importance of protecting the rule of law, then the issue of extremist travellers returning to Canada, then a brief conversation about the settlement involving Omar Khadr, and I will conclude with the need to combat the politics of fear and division.

The rule of law, in my opinion, is a fundamental pillar of our democracy. It separates our country from dictators and despots, and ensures that our government is subject to the law and that our citizens are protected by it, not the other way around. It prevents the possibility of a given leader or government eroding protections enshrined in our legal system for political advantage, and prevents them from operating without scrutiny or accountability.

The rule of law is the linchpin to our democracy. Our entire system depends on this. Without it protecting our rights, our society would break down. At times, protecting the rights of Canadians can be extremely difficult. It is very easy to give away the rights of other people, but we need to stand up for the rights of our neighbours, not only when it is convenient but when it is difficult. In fact, that is when it is most important.

It can be very hard to defend the rights of another person when seeking to balance those rights with such heavy concepts as security or such immense threats as terrorism. Those words have extraordinary power.

When we fear for our safety, the easy thing to do is to give away the rights of our neighbour. However, my friends, our neighbours' rights are our collective rights. To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, any society that would give up a little freedom to gain a little security deserves neither and will lose both.

The erosion of our freedoms and our security will not come at the hands of tyrants and terrorists half a world away. The threat is far nearer. It is going to come by the decisions and actions of some future government, a generation from now, empowered by an erosion of our rights today, and it is going to happen in our own communities, right here at home, if we do not take a stand to protect our rights.

The fact is that we can protect our rights and our security at the same time. There is immense interplay between these two concepts, but they are not mutually exclusive. There are, in fact, very serious issues of national security that any government needs to address in the 21st century. Our government is addressing those matters. Given the changing nature of the global order and the rise of well-organized, well-financed sub-state terror entities like Daesh, we need to adapt our traditional model of national security to address the changing nature of the threats we face, and the world faces.

With respect to the first aspect of the motion on the floor today, I anticipate every member of Parliament joining me in condemning the horrific acts of violence committed by Daesh against innocent people around the world. I readily acknowledge, without equivocation, that we must work as part of the global community to eradicate these acts of senseless violence from our planet altogether.

Notwithstanding my agreement with the first part of the motion on the floor of the House, I take sincere exception to the other parts, which seek to stoke fear of extremist travellers returning to Canada. We have to formulate policy on issues of national security from a place of reason. The Conservatives have not taken a rational approach to this issue and are seeking to form policy from a place of fear, which in my opinion is very dangerous and creates an unreasonable apprehension of risk, not just amongst their caucus members but amongst Canadians as well.

We need the tools to address these kinds of threats, and in fact, we are in the midst of ensuring that we have those tools. I note the efforts that have been raised today to pass Bill C-59, which would eliminate many of the superfluous measures that were contained in the prior iteration under Bill C-51, to which I had great objection.

I note that leading experts Kent Roach and Craig Forcese have referred to some of those measures as overkill and have since said that the revisions made under Bill C-59 are the real deal and pose no credible threat to security.

The motion today no doubt arises as a result of our public safety minister sharing in question period the fact that approximately 60 extremist travellers have returned to Canada. The opposition members have seemingly implied in the House and previously that they have returned under the Liberal government's watch, when in fact this same number had returned to Canada prior to the last election when they were still in power.

We cannot forget that, under both Canadian and international law, citizens have the right to return to their country of citizenship. My own view is that I would rather have a dangerous person who is a Canadian citizen detained or being monitored within our own country than being part of an international terror organization abroad where they could more easily escape scrutiny and pose a greater danger to innocent people around the world and in our country.

In fact, the heavy irony of the opposition's calls for enhanced prosecution of returning ISIS fighters is a difficult one to swallow when we consider that, under its government, precisely zero prosecutions actually took place. Moreover, in its last term in office alone, the Harper government cut over $1 billion from the budgets of the very agencies that seek to protect us against the kind of harm that they now raise in the House.

Since the Conservatives were ousted from power by Canadians, prosecutions of extremist travellers have actually taken place and a conviction has been obtained not too long ago. The fact is that groups such as Daesh are to be treated seriously, and I know every member of the House shares that opinion.

However, Canadians need not live in fear, as the Conservatives would have us do, because these matters have the fullest possible attention of our world-class security agencies. We know that safety and security of our citizens is a top priority for any government of any party. To suggest otherwise is a distasteful display of fearmongering that seeks to take advantage of Canadians, who need not be afraid.

To any Canadians who may be listening, do not fall into this trap. They do not need to fear that terrorists are running rampant through our communities, unchecked. CSIS, CBSA, and the RCMP work with global partners to monitor security threats through surveillance, intelligence gathering, and many tools that are available under the Criminal Code, including prosecutions where there is evidence that a crime has actually been committed.

In fact, we are significantly more likely to be killed while walking, riding a bike, or experiencing a heat wave than we are to die in a terrorist attack in our country. I am not going to let groups like Daesh hold the power of fear over me from the other side of the world as other members of the House would. Let us provide our security agencies with the tools that they need to protect us, while upholding the values enshrined in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and let us move on with living our lives free of fear.

The motion on the floor today also makes passing reference to what the opposition has called the “unnecessary financial payout” to Omar Khadr. This position is a choice by the Conservatives to ignore the world around them when the facts are readily available to demonstrate the Government of Canada's inevitable liability in the litigation that was before the courts.

The opposition seeks to undermine the rule of law and erode our Charter of Rights and Freedoms to once again divide Canadians on the basis of fear, not facts or evidence. It has gone to incredible lengths to demonstrate Mr. Khadr is evil in order to justify gross miscarriages of justice and to excuse unconscionable conduct that demonstrates a moral and legal failing by the Government of Canada.

I do not know Mr. Khadr, nor do I need to in order to understand what was going on in this piece of litigation. The settlement in this case has nothing to do with his quality as a person or his actions in Afghanistan. Instead, it addresses the sole question of the Government of Canada's conduct and responsibility to make amends for its breach of legal duties it owed to one of its citizens.

Many Canadians were upset upon learning the details of the settlement with Mr. Khadr. I have been watching this file unfold for years. I have been deeply disturbed by it for quite some time. The fact that our country would demonstrate such a disregard for one of its citizens is the real shame in this matter, and we all need to wear that as Canadians.

To conclude, there are reasoned debates to be had about the interplay between human rights and national security. Our national interest compels it. However, our citizens are more intelligent than this motion gives them credit for. They deserve a nuanced debate. However, the quality of our politics cannot possibly be so low that a party's political fortunes depend on the fear or ignorance of the electorate.

I have now watched the opposition use politics of fear and division repeatedly without shame, not just in this motion but when it came to the niqab ban and the immigrant snitch line. I received promotional materials in a prior election that promised to deny dental benefits to refugees.

I am sick of the fearmongering that is invading Canadian politics. Liberals do not like it. New Democrats do not like it. Progressive Conservatives in my riding do not like it, and they do not deserve to be painted with that brush. The failed—

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

Unfortunately, the time is up. Perhaps the member will be able to add anything else he could not finish during questions and comments.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Madam Speaker, I listened carefully to the speech given by my colleague across the way.

The Liberals would have people believe that we are trying to divide Canadians. I would like to ask my colleague whether he believes that members of ISIS have been the sworn enemy of the western world in recent years. During the Second World War, the Germans were the enemy of the western world. Today, the enemy is ISIS. We invested billions of dollars to help our soldiers combat ISIS.

Does my colleague agree with us, the Conservatives, that ISIS is our enemy and that people who crossed the ocean to fight for ISIS are too?

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Madam Speaker, before I answer the meat of the question, the hon. member across the aisle began his remarks with a comment about division. This motion is an exercise in divisive politics, if ever I have seen one. This is about dividing Canadians, not based on facts, but based on fear.

To answer the question, I mentioned in my remarks that I think every member of the House is willing to condemn the evil that ISIS, or Daesh if one prefers that name, commits against innocent civilians. There is no reasonable basis upon which a conclusion could be drawn after my remarks that I am somehow sympathetic to members of ISIS. In fact, the opposite is true. We need to continue to engage in the fight against sub-state terror groups like Daesh, Boko Haram, and others around the world, to keep Canadians safe.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Madam Speaker, it is true this motion is only meant to divide Canadians and prey on their fears. It is actually shameful that the Conservatives are operating this way. I have seen this movie before. We saw it during the 2015 election. We were wondering who was the leader of the official opposition. Now we know who the new boss is. He is the same as the old boss.

My colleague is a new member of Parliament, and I was not here either in the previous years, I want to ask him if he would have stood up to cut $1 billion from the very organizations that do a great job at stopping terrorism in our country. Would he have stood up in the House and voted yea. We know on that side of the House, they all voted to cut security services out of the budget. Would he have done that had he been a member of Parliament then?

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Madam Speaker, on the first point my hon colleague, the member for Glengarry—Prescott—Russell made, I can point out that this failed campaign tactic has been pulled straight from the playbook of Stephen Harper. The new opposition leader has branded himself after his win as Stephen Harper 2.0, and the same politics of fear and division that brought down the Harper government I trust will do the same thing to his party in 2019.

To answer the question, it is important that Canadians do not feel compelled to live in fear. We can ensure that agencies are well funded and have the resources they need to protect us, and then go on and live our lives the way we want to in our communities. Absolutely, I would stand up for the rights of our security agencies to be well funded and well resourced so they can do the job they are so talented at doing, which is keeping Canadians safe.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON

Madam Speaker, I remind the member that it was Stephen Harper who did not roll over against a terrorist and pay him $10.5 million. It was this government that did that.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Madam Speaker, I would like to remind the member opposite that it would have been Stephen Harper, had he not run a campaign based on fear and division, that would have ended up paying $40 million to lose a lawsuit.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Madam Speaker, first, I would like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Barrie—Innisfil.

I am pleased to rise today to discuss this important national security issue. A report issued by the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness in 2016 estimated that 60 jihadists had already returned to Canada and that 180 others “were abroad and...were suspected of engaging in terrorism-related activities”.

It is estimated that 90 individuals who fought for terrorist groups will try to return to Canada in the coming months, now that ISIS is losing ground in the Middle East.

Meanwhile, the government wants to implement a reintegration program. The Prime Minister also said a number of times that he would create the Canada Centre for Community Engagement and Prevention of Violence to counter radicalization.

While the government is trying to reintegrate and monitor the Canadians who went to fight with ISIS, Canadians are worried about the impact the return of these fighters will have on national security. The government must address that concern. It has a duty to reassure us.

Anyone who has taken part in the activities of a terrorist group, whether as a fighter, a teacher, or a nurse, is a criminal. Canada has every right to charge such individuals with terrorism offences when they return to the country. We know that so far, about 60 Canadians who were involved with ISIS have returned to Canada. Only two of them have been charged; the others have not been charged with anything whatsoever.

We also know that it is difficult to gather the evidence needed to charge these individuals with participating in the activities of a terrorist group, but that should in no way interfere with the government's work. This is a priority issue. These people can unfortunately pose a risk to the security of our country.

The RCMP does not currently have the resources for round-the-block monitoring of all the fighters who have returned to Canada. The government needs to set priorities, take appropriate measures based on the risk posed by each individual, and create a bulletproof safety net that will make all Canadians feel secure.

Today we are asking the government to send a clear message to all Canadians. What are the repatriation procedures? What is it doing to ensure national security? How will it provide assurances to Canadians about that? How many and what kinds of resources will be invested? How many Canadians are under surveillance?

ISIS is losing ground every day. More and more Canadians who joined ISIS will return to Canada. It is time to establish a clear national policy that covers the psychosocial aspects of the problem and, above all, the security aspects.

Those who have joined a terrorist group and fought against Canada and its allies must be brought to justice. It cannot be denied that those people decided to fight against our own soldiers, Canada's soldiers. We know that those individuals who return to Canada must be arrested and charged upon arrival, or authorities could quite simply lose track of them in our country.

Canadians' desire to feel safe in their own country is a basic and perfectly legitimate issue. The Liberal government must do everything possible to detain and bring to justice the Canadians returning to Canada after collaborating with ISIS, and it must do so quickly.

On November 30, the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness testified before the committee about his bill, which will address the alleged gaps in the Anti-terrorism Act. He explained that Bill C-59 would restrict the powers of Canada's secret services to disrupt terrorist plots while they are in the planning stages.

However, we should be working on prevention. Many Canadians get the impression that the government is spending more time protecting the criminals than the victims and Canadians themselves. This is fuelling a deep and understandable concern that the government must address.

The political choice to give priority to respecting the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms for criminals instead of doing everything we can to ensure that they are arrested does not fly. The political choice to give priority to respecting the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms for criminals instead of doing everything we can to ensure the safety of Canadians does not fly. Those who made the personal choice to fight alongside terrorist groups also made the deliberate choice to fight our own soldiers and our allies.

That is why so many Canadians do not understand anything the Liberal Party is saying right now. This government has to demonstrate that it is listening, respect people's intelligence, and address their concerns about our country's national security.

Our motion today proposes:

That the House:

(a) condemn the horrific acts committed by ISIS;

(b) acknowledge that individuals who joined ISIS fighters are complicit in these horrific acts and pose a danger to Canadians;

(c) call on the government to bring to justice and prosecute any ISIS fighter returning to Canada; and

(d) insist that the government make the security and protection of Canadians its priority, rather than the reintegration of ISIS fighters, or the unnecessary financial payout to a convicted terrorist, like Omar Khadr.

The opposition is very worried about how this Liberal government is handling this national security issue. We, like everyone else, see these incidents and attacks carried out all over the world. We are very worried to know that Canadians made a deliberate choice to go to these countries to fight alongside ISIS soldiers. By fighting alongside them, these individuals also made the choice to fight our own soldiers.

We just marked Remembrance Day, on November 11. We all took part in various commemorative ceremonies. We have seen how hard our soldiers have worked to protect democracy and peace here in Canada and around the world. These individuals did so proudly, and based on directives from our Parliament and our army, which believed in justice everywhere.

Knowing that some Canadians will be able to or have been able to go and fight overseas and then return to this country without facing any justice whatsoever, that worries us. To hear this government hide behind the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms again and again instead of bringing in the measures needed to keep Canadians safe is worrisome.

I look forward to questions from my colleagues across party lines. I hope the members of the House will stand up and send a clear message by voting in favour of our motion before the House.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, there is a sense that the members of the Conservative Party have lost an opportunity to possibly have a healthier debate because they seem to be more focused on wanting to put across some sort of a spin, as if something has taken place that has endangered Canadians or is going to make Canadians feel less safe when in fact the truth is that this government has taken a very proactive approach. Not only do we have a Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness who is on top of this file just as much as, if not more so than, in the previous government, and prosecutions would demonstrate that, but—this is where the question lies—we also finally have a government that realizes that there is a role for the Government of Canada to play to combat the radicalization of young people. As we have terrorists from abroad using the Internet and social media as a means to recruit extremism here in Canada, the former government tended to ignore it. The current government recognizes that as a problem. Will the Conservative Party at least recognize that it is a problem and support what the government is doing on that initiative?

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Madam Speaker, no one is opposed to countering radicalization or educating and informing young people. That is not the problem.

The first step is to be aware of the problem. There are Canadians who chose, with heart and mind, to join ISIS and fight against our soldiers and allies throughout the world. They were perfectly aware of what they were doing. That is unacceptable.

On this side of the House, we do not want these people to be allowed to come back without being brought to justice. We need to put an end to that and send a clear message that no Canadian who chooses to leave the country to fight with ISIS will be given a free pass.

The motion seems fairly straightforward to me. It says it all. I invite hon. members opposite to give it a careful, thoughtful read. I am convinced that they will come to the same conclusion as us.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Madam Speaker, government members have talked all day about the fact that they think there is fear related to this whole issue. There actually is, but it does not have anything to do with us. It has to do with Canadians feeling less safe. The folks opposite have tried to turn this into a budget issue, which they have gone on about all day, but it really is not a budget issue.

The perception Canadians have of the government is that its heart is just not in protecting them. It does not have the same kind of commitment to protecting Canadians as there has been in the past. Therefore, it is not a budget-related issue; it is a commitment-related issue, and the government has not made that commitment. That showed up in a few places.

The Liberals are not proactive in this at all. When we hear their answers in the House, we know they are not really taking this seriously. On television, the public safety minister talked about how he knew we could not change these people's minds, but the Liberals would let them in anyway and work with them on these little projects. That makes people across the country very uncomfortable.

We have heard we cannot defend our borders. We know that. We have talked about this in the House many times. The Liberal government is incapable of defending our borders, telling people that if they want to cross into Canada, they should go to border crossings. We have also seen massive payouts to people who have been convicted of terrorist activities.

Could my colleague comment on that and does he think this is a matter of a commitment from the heart that the government has refused to make so far, or if it is really a budget-related issue, like those members have been trying to sell all day?

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his kind words. He is right. He sees that we, on this side of the House, are extremely concerned about this issue, unlike the members opposite.

This is a fundamental issue. Here in Canada and throughout the world, people are extremely worried about terrorists. We hope that this government will send a clear message to anyone who is becoming radicalized and chooses to fight with ISIS that, when they come back, they will be tried and held to account for all of the acts they may have committed while fighting alongside these terrorists.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON

Madam Speaker, I want to thank my hon. colleague for sharing his time with me today.

It is interesting, because the member for Cypress Hills—Grasslands brings up a good point, and that is about Canadians feeling safe. The motion states:

That the House:

(a) condemn the horrific acts committed by ISIS;

(b) acknowledge that individuals who joined ISIS fighters are complicit in these horrific acts and pose a danger to Canadians;

(c) call on the government to bring to justice and prosecute any ISIS fighter returning to Canada; and

(d) insist that the government make the security and protection of Canadians its priority, rather than the reintegration of ISIS fighters, or the unnecessary financial payout to a convicted terrorist, like Omar Khadr.

It is the reintegration of the ISIS fighters over the course of the last couple of weeks, where this debate has gone on, that has really concerned many Canadians. It has concerned many people in my riding of Barrie—Innisfil. The Omar Khadr payout has done this as well.

This is not stoking a fear issue. This calls on the government to prioritize, with respect to safety for Canadians, and look after and ensure we hold the ISIS terrorists back, and not allow them to reintegrate back into our society. I had to laugh when the member for Central Nova spoke about this being an anti-intellectual debate. When it causes concern to Canadians, it is not anti-intellectualism. It is a concern for Canadians and that needs to be debated in the House.

In the last election, nobody voted to elect a government to focus on the rights of ISIS terrorists over Canadians. This reintegration policy the government is now proposing certainly flies in the face of safety and security. These people, and it has been said through the course of this debate today, have raped women. They are terrorists who have burned people alive, have beheaded people, and in some cases Canadians have gone over there to engage in those types of activities. They have become normalized to those types of activities.

They are going to come back to Canada and somehow reintegrate into Canadian society, with the help of things like poetry. We saw the Prime Minister get upset last week when this question was asked, stoking the fears of division.

That is really the answer to everything with the Liberals. Whenever somebody has a concern about an issue, they label them as a foe. If members call into question the concerns of ISIS terrorists, the Liberals will call them an Islamaphobe. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is a proud Muslim community in my riding of Barrie—Innisfil. The people work hard and they do not agree with ISIS ideology or this jihadist ideology. I am very proud to call many of them my friends.

I want to focus on the latter part of the motion. It relates to the issue of Omar Khadr and the payment. The Liberals have stood up today in defence of that payment. Members on that side of the House have served in the military, members like the member for Orléans, the Minister of National Defence, the member for Kanata—Carleton, the member for Kelowna—Lake Country and the member for Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill. After being engaged in the anti-terror fight, I find it hard that they actually would defend that payment $10.5 million to Omar Khadr.

I will remind the House again that thus was done in July. There was a sense that somehow people were not going to pay attention to that issue. They did. We certainly heard about it. The Liberal side certainly heard about it.

This was not a case that dealt with the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court said that clearly his rights were violated, but Omar Khadr filed a civil case. For the Liberal government to preclude judgment of that civil case, and as I said earlier, by simply rolling over and giving this money to Omar Khadr in advance of any decision of any court, in advance of any argument that was made, why do we even have a court system? Why do we have judges? Why do we have lawyers? Why, if all the Liberals are going to do is preclude any civil action by deciding they are going to do is roll over and effectively give a convicted terrorist $10.5 million?

Repatriation, coming back to this country, was enough for Omar Khadr. It was enough, and he deserves nothing more after what he did to Christopher Speer and his family.

However, I remind the House that many Canadians were killed in Afghanistan. Shortly after the payment was made to Omar Khadr, I received an email from Fred McKay. Fred's son, Kevin, was killed in Afghanistan just days before Omar Khadr was scheduled to come back. The email stated:

Sir...I would very much appreciate it if you would stand up against this ridiculous reward and apology being given to a convicted terrorist. It is beyond my comprehension why our government would do this. Is it because Khadr was “only fifteen years old” when he killed U.S Army Medic Christopher Speer? His lawyer claims that the confession was obtained “under duress”, thus creating the impression that Khadr was tortured, when it has been reported that the method used to extract this confession was nothing more than sleep deprivation! His captors didn't lay a hand on him!

I have more than a passing interest in this matter. My fine young son, Pte. Kevin McKay, lPPCLI, was killed by an IED on May 13th, 2010, only two days before the end of his tour of duty. He was on his very last night patrol in the village of Nakoney, in the Panjwaii District.

Kevin willingly went to Afghanistan with the intended purpose of ensuring the kids could attend school without having acid thrown in their faces, and be free from oppression. Kevin went to Afghanistan to HELP, and not to HURT. He didn't think it was right that teachers were being murdered just for being teachers. The Taliban are not afraid of guns and bombs; they are afraid of school children with school books, because as those kids become educated, they will reject the Taliban's archaic ideology of oppression and ignorance. Kevin spent close to eight months in the combat outposts (“outside the wire”, in harm's way). During this time Kevin and his section did not have to fire a shot in anger, but rather had to play “IED hopscotch”. During their patrols, they found in excess of 160 IEDs...all of them built with the intention of killing and maiming our Canadian soldiers. Kevin's Battle Group suffered six casualties. Our son was the 144th Canadian soldier killed in Afghanistan.

Shortly after Kevin was killed it was brought to my attention that the person that had built the bomb that killed our son was “only fifteen years old”. Sound familiar? He and his father were known to be Taliban bomb makers, but our soldiers were hamstrung by their Rules of Engagement (ROEs). I was very pleased to hear some months later that retribution, with extreme prejudice, was visited upon them by the subsequently arriving Canadian Battle Group just two weeks after Kevin's death.

Should we feel sympathy for Omar Khadr because he was only fifteen years old? I'm sorry, but I do not. Just like I don't feel sorry for the fifteen year old bomb maker that killed our son. Should we feel sympathy for Khadr because his confession was “coerced” by “sleep deprivation”? I'm sorry, but I do not. I wish I got paid ten million bucks for every sleepless night I spent while Kevin was deployed into one of the most dangerous places in the world for eight months. Any parent or anyone who works for a living to make ends meet knows all about sleep deprivation! We complain about it, but is it to be considered a form of torture?

Am I to believe that, should these bomb maker's families come forward, with a lawyer, our Canadian government would apologize and compensate them to the tune of ten million dollars for the loss of their loved ones? By the way, we received $90,000 from the government when we lost our son, a far cry from the $360,000 maximum. We were told we were receiving that particular sum because Kevin was single and had no dependants...

I am going to conclude with the words of Fred McKay:

I am a proud Canadian, and Kevin was a proud Canadian soldier. The honour and respect that our family was shown as we came along the Highway of Heroes was unbelievable and unforgettable. Apparently that honour and respect is not mirrored by our government. That pride is now being strained like never before. It is wrong to offer Omar Khadr an apology and a compensation package. The only way to right this wrong is to ensure that this money, rather than ending up in Khadr's hands, must be forwarded to Chris Speer's widow, should she be inclined to accept it.

It is for Fred McKay, his wife, and Kevin that I bring this letter up. The payment to Omar Khadr was wrong, and the government was wrong to do it.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, I wonder if the member across the way could inform the House of how many individuals who left Canada, participated in terrorist activities—because we know this is not new but happened when Stephen Harper was the prime minister—and came back to Canada were actually put in jail by Stephen Harper and his government, in 10 years.

I think it is a fair question. I am sure they have done their homework and the hon. member should be able to give us a number.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON

Madam Speaker, let us look at what the government's public safety minister has said, which is relevant to this discussion, because we are talking about reintegrating Canadians who have left our soil to fight on behalf of ISIS and are coming back.

The public safety minister said that the government has identified about 250 people with links to Canada who are suspected of overseas terrorist activities, or as he has called them, terrorist travellers. These are people who have gone to cause harm to others, including potentially Canadian soldiers, who the current government wants to reintegrate back into Canadian society.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Madam Speaker, for the Canadian parents of Kevin, there is nothing one can say to ease their pain and their loss. However, I think we do ourselves a disservice to direct that anger to the settlement with Omar Khadr.

I do not think I have heard any other member of Parliament talk about this in this place, but I know this due to the reporting work of Sandy Garossino for the National Observer, which published photos taken by the U.S. military. This was, of course, an exchange between combatants and not conventionally what anyone would describe as terrorism. They were combatants, and there is no question that Omar Khadr was taken by his father into a war zone. We can say anything we want about how unbearably unacceptable what his father did to him was, but he was taken into that zone. There is no good evidence that would stand up in a Canadian court that Omar Khadr threw the grenade, and I think there is a very large chance that he did not. The photos in the piece in the National Observer show him under mountains of rubble at the moment that grenade was thrown.

Therefore, I think we have a very large reason to doubt that his confession during sleep deprivation was for something he actually did. Quite possibly it was for something he did not do, for which he was not getting the help of his government when he was in a foreign prison and being tortured.

There are many layers to this, and I wonder if my hon. friend for Barrie—Innisfil would feel differently about what he said if he thought for a moment that it was quite possible that the person described in this motion as a convicted terrorist was in fact convicted in a military court for something he did not do.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON

Madam Speaker, I think the hon. member raises an important point here.

There is no question that the courts found that Omar Khadr's rights had been violated. The issue we are talking about with respect to this particular payment was the fact that Omar Khadr had filed a civil suit against the government, but the government did not allow that civil suit to play out to its final verdict. In my opinion, the government rolled over and gave Omar Khadr a settlement, which he could potentially have not been worthy of had it gone through the entire process of the civil court.

I think the Liberal government did a disservice to Canadians by doing this and certainly opened the door for other cases, as we have seen, subsequent to the Omar Khadr case.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, it is always nice to rise and share some thoughts and some opinions on things that come before the House. I must say right up front that I am disappointed in the official opposition. Today, those members stand alone. I do not see the unholy alliance with them on this. Even the Green Party is offside with the motion. They stand alone, and there is a good reason for that. One of my colleagues called the current leader “Stephen Harper 2.0”. There is a lot of truth to that simple statement. Members of the opposition seem to want to repeat their past, and it is really unfortunate because it talks to the negativism in politics today.

I do not believe for a moment that there is any member in the House of Commons today who in any way would support terrorism. I do not believe there is a member in the House who would not want to see whatever is possible to be done to condemn terrorist acts.

Members across the way have talked about the horrific acts that take place in some of these countries where terrorism is occurring far too often, horrific actions such as women being raped, gays being thrown off buildings, people being burned alive, and decapitation. These are all horrific acts, and no Canadian would recognize them to be anything other than horrific acts.

Canadians want members of this chamber to speak out against them. If each and every one of us stood in our place and provided comment on those acts, maybe with some variation, I believe I have in essence captured what each and every member would say, at least in part. It needs to be reinforced that there is not one member in the House who is more taken aback by those horrific actions and is therefore a fighter against terrorism.

Members on both sides of the House recognize the horror of terrorism and want as much as possible to marginalize it, to minimize the types of acts that are taking place around the world today, more concentrated in some areas. It is sad to see. The Government of Canada has taken many different initiatives not only outside our borders but also inside our borders.

I want to pick up on some of the things I have been hearing over the last week or two in regard to some of the spin that the Conservative Party is trying to put on this. The Conservatives are trying as hard as they can to give the impression that there is not only a serious problem with terrorism, which we all recognize, but that the threat is increasing to more today in Canada than previously.

The recent question I asked my colleague was meant to be a sincere question in the hope that the member opposite would be able to provide an answer. It was not a difficult question. Listening to the rhetoric that is coming from the opposition benches, one would think that the Stephen Harper government and those Conservative members would have sent directly to jail anyone who came back to Canada from certain areas of the world. That is the impression one would get from some of the rhetoric we are hearing today.

That is the reason I posed the question of how many individuals were actually put in jail by Stephen Harper. People who might be following the debate or listening would be expecting to hear a number, I am sure, maybe even a guesstimate, anything to provide some legitimacy to the motion or to the rhetoric we are hearing from across the way. The member, who has the right to answer any question in any fashion he chooses, chose to ignore the question. I do not blame him, because my understanding is that it is pretty close to zero, if not zero, but we would not know that by the type of rhetoric we are hearing.

On many question period opportunities, the opposition members said we have 60 returning individuals who were radicalized, left Canada, and now are coming back, and asked why are they not going directly to jail. That is what the opposition members are trying to imply, that because the Government of Canada is not putting them in jail, Canadians are at great risk. I contrast that to what was taking place prior to this government. In 2015, it was around the same number, 60.

There are lawyers inside this House and maybe they can advise me a bit differently, but I genuinely believe that Canadians have rights. The Liberal Party is the party of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We are the party that actually brought it in through Pierre Elliott Trudeau. We understand the importance of rights and freedoms. Behind closed doors, at times, it seems that Conservatives also will recognize that, and that is likely the reason why the member opposite could not provide an answer greater than zero. The legislation that the Conservatives introduced said that, if people left Canada with the intention of coming back after committing a terrorist act, they would be prosecuted. Even with that, what were the results? What did the Stephen Harper government provide at the end of the day? It provided zero, nothing, and yet now we do not really see a great huge influx. It is right around 60 and the Conservatives are screaming from their seats that the sky is falling, and asking what is happening and why the government is not throwing them all in jail. That is what they are trying to imply and because the government is not saying that, they say—eureka—they have an issue here; they are going to say that the Government of Canada is soft on terrorism, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Whether it was through the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, or the parliamentary secretary, with whom I was quite impressed and would encourage members to read his earlier speech, or the answers that the minister provided for the opposition members, or in fact even the Prime Minister's address to the leader of the official opposition in regard to the issue, Canadians should know they have nothing to fear in regard to the issue, any more than they did two years ago. In fact, with the recent budget, I would suggest there is a greater likelihood that we are going to be able to do more with regard to preventing the radicalization of Canada's young people.

The Minister of Public Services and Procurement made it very clear, and I believe I have the numbers here. We talked about the agencies, and that would have been a great way to start the debate. We really need to express just how wonderful a job our Canadian security agencies actually do. It is phenomenal work.

It is not something that is nine to five. This is seven days a week, 24 hours a day, and not only working with agencies here in Canada. This is working with the Five Eyes countries, G7, Interpol, and so forth doing this tracking system. It is very thorough. The women and men who perform for us in keeping Canadians safe need to be recognized, and they should be applauded for the fine work they do day in and day out.

I have far more confidence in them and their ability than the spin the Conservatives are putting to try to give a false impression. The number I heard from the minister of public safety was over $1 billion in cuts. Think about it, between 2011 and 2015, as opposed to the Harper government supporting all those security agencies with the responsibility of keeping Canadians safe, it actually cut in excess of $1 billion in that time period.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:35 p.m.

Tony Clement

Where do you get that from?

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Someone heckled where we get those cuts. I have some numbers right in front of me, and the member who is heckling actually sat in cabinet when those cuts were taking place. One would think that would maybe curtail some of their criticism toward a government that has been reinforcing and providing more support. No, because it gets in the way of the spin that the Conservatives are trying to falsely put across.

Think about it, $530 million in cuts between 2011 and 2015 to the RCMP alone. Now, that is the bulk of the cuts. Another $390 million was cut from the Canada Border Services Agency, $69 million from CSIS, $42 million from the Communications Security Establishment, and a further $171 million from the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority. These are agencies that are expected to work collaboratively to ensure Canadians are safe. Fortunately, because of the dedication and hard work of the individuals who make up those security agencies, they have done an outstanding job in keeping Canadians safe despite the significant cuts from the previous administration.

That is one aspect that the minister of public safety talked about. The other issue was the actual numbers. It was estimated around 60 individuals, and that is what has generated the uproar from the opposition benches. What is the Government of Canada doing about 60? What is the actual change? It is virtually the same. It was estimated to be around 60 back in 2015. That is when Stephen Harper was prime minister. That is why I asked a very simple question of the member opposite, and people following the debate saw the answer.

It seems to me that whether it is the Prime Minister of Canada or the minister responsible for public safety, or even the parliamentary secretary or other members who have addressed this issue today inside the chamber, it does not matter what the facts are. The Conservatives are going to push it because they want to use it as a wedge issue. The Conservative Party of Canada wants to cause Canadians to be more fearful of something they do not necessarily need to be fearful of any more than they were in the dying years of the Conservatives on the issue of security.

In fact, I would argue that given what the government has done since 2015, there have been significant actions that should decrease the level of fear.

Members across the way might say I am somewhat biased because of where I stand currently. There is something called a baloney meter. I believe it is one of the TV stations that conducts it. We will find there is a lot of baloney in the Conservative arguments, and that is more independent. They are not just hearing it from the Liberals and the New Democrats, or the Green Party, there are many independents out there following the debate and realizing the Conservative Party members, like on so many other issues, are out of touch and they do not understand. They recognize this is an issue where the Conservatives are prepared to prey on the potential fears of Canadians. Shame on them for that sort of behaviour. That is the reason I will not support this opposition day motion.

Where should the focus be, at least in part? We know the government is taking very seriously, more seriously, those individuals who are crossing because we are respecting and supporting our security services agents. We are demonstrating that in a very a real and tangible way. However, there are other things we could be doing. This is something the Conservatives did not do. Under Stephen Harper and their minister of public safety, they seemed to ignore the issue of radicalization, that in fact it was happening in Canada to the degree it was taking place. They had their collective heads buried in the sand, preferring to ignore it, trying to sound tough, but not looking at ways to prevent young people from being lured into this extreme behaviour.

For 10 years they had the opportunity. For the last three or four years while they were in government, countries around the world were recognizing that one of the ways we are going to have a more long-term impact on combatting terrorism is to look at ways people are being recruited into extreme actions. Social media is the goldmine for terrorists and their organizations. In fact, there are many websites that are designed for one purpose only, and that is to recruit individuals who could potentially cause extreme, harmful actions not only outside of Canada's borders, but also within Canada.

The former government did not recognize that. It did not invest resources into that issue. We have, because we believe that in many of those situations, by the government being more proactive and investing in our community activities, we will be able to prevent some of these young people from being lured away where they could plan and cause harm, whether it is to society here in Canada or abroad. There are financial resources following that.

We hope the Conservatives recognize it is time to go beyond trying to divide and cause fear in the minds of Canadians, any more than what was there prior to 2015.

Instead of trying to promote or add a falsehood, in good part, why not participate in and appreciate what we can do to help young people in Canada by preventing them from possibly being lured into these extreme actions, to the detriment not only of Canada but the world.

Opposition Motion—ISIS fighters returning to CanadaBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Winnipeg North has missed the whole point of what this motion and the debate are all about.

Years ago, ISIS was on the run. Canada took the fight, with our allies, to ISIS, which has effectively been destroyed and is actually retrenching now. The way it is doing that is by sending its fighters go back to their countries of origin. We are talking about the reintegration of fighters. We are not necessarily talking about de-radicalization of young people who are here right now.

The ones coming back to Canada are the ones posing a very real threat not just to our country but countries of their home origin, and yet the hon. member says we are supposed to accept them with open arms. That is not what Conservatives are saying. We are saying the government needs to be more diligent, and it is not proving that diligence based on the policies it has suggested of reintegrating these ISIS terrorists who are on the run and only later the potential exists that they are going to cause harm to the country they are returning to. Why are we opening our arms to those types of people?