House of Commons Hansard #153 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was chair.

Topics

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

NDP

Cheryl Hardcastle NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting to hear all of the comments with regard to the bill coming forward.

I want to stress for Canadians what is actually happening here. I would like to have the member explain for Canadians why it does not pose a risk to have information withheld from a committee that has the mandate of oversight and why it is not a risk to deny information with regard to financing and books to an auditor.

Could the member explain how this committee can actually move forward and be a bona fide oversight committee with these glaring shortcomings? We expected this to address some of the concerns that came forward with Bill C-51. Now we have something that is toothless.

I am very concerned. Perhaps the member could explain why these risks are acceptable for Canadians to take on, when we are creating this new committee that is supposed to have oversight but actually has no weight whatsoever.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her question.

I would remind my hon. colleague that what I have just said is that certain information that is kept confidential during operations will be available to the committee members afterward, so that the committee can analyze national security-related operations.

I would also remind the member that the party to which she belongs was prepared to remove from the legislative landscape the bills that we are trying to improve to ensure Canadians can be safe, which is the basis of this bill, and, most importantly, can have confidence in a committee that will be able to verify and oversee what at least 17 agencies, organizations, and bodies in the security field are doing, to ensure that operations are conducted properly and that their freedoms and rights are upheld.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Barrie—Innisfil. I will let him know that there are just shy of 10 minutes remaining for his remarks. I will give him the usual indication just before his time is up. He will have approximately eight and a half minutes.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON

Mr. Speaker, if truth be known, I only expected to speak for four minutes, so I want to thank you for the extra time. I just wish my colleague from Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman would have stood up and asked a question at that point.

However, I want to speak to a very important issue as the last speaker in this debate. What is interesting to me is to see the level of control that is going on within the Liberal government and within the Prime Minister's Office. In the election campaign the Prime Minister talked about doing things differently, holding his hand over his heart saying that for Canada things will be better, yet here we are, dealing with a time allocation situation. There have not been that many speakers, quite frankly, to speak to this very important issue.

The reality is that this was a campaign promise that was made by the Liberal government, and it is effectively fast-tracking it through Parliament.

As I prepared to speak to this issue in the short time that I had, I saw that a Google search on Bill C-22 shows us the level of concern that exists among Canadians, and certainly it has been been editorialized as well that we have to make sure we get this right. Getting it right is important. That means giving oversight of this committee to this body, to Parliament, not having it consolidated through the PMO. It means making sure that information is accessible to this committee. That is extremely important.

I know that the NSICOP would report to the Prime Minister's Office when it should be reporting to Parliament. The Prime Minister campaigned on a reduced role for the Prime Minister's Office, but again his actions do not speak to and certainly do not follow those words. There were several amendments that were proposed at the public safety committee to make this security committee much more effective. Some of those proposals and amendments would have provided truly effective scrutiny for members of Parliament on this oversight committee, yet they were rejected. As a result, the committee will not have the power it needs in order to have true oversight.

A lot of discussion has gone on about our Five Eyes allies. What the government has done is it has not used some of the examples from the United Kingdom with respect to a very similar parliamentary committee that the U.K. has. The new committee does need the powers to ensure that it has this democratic oversight.

One of the issues that is concerning all of us is that this bill, Bill C-22, was tabled in the final hours of the last session of Parliament to ensure there would be virtually no debate. That is effectively what is happening here. The government is shutting down debate on this issue. My colleagues and I on this side do not think that needs to be done. However, it is a systemic pattern of the current government.

I go back to the campaign. I know the government can criticize the time allocations brought by the previous government all it wants, but when we go back to the throne speech, when the Prime Minister's words were delivered by the Governor General in the Senate, it said that every voice in this chamber would be heard. In the throne speech it said that every member who represents Canadians will have their say, yet so far, not many voices in this chamber have been heard. Those voices were even echoed at committee, yet the Liberals, through the committee, decided that they would not accept any of the amendments.

I am pleased to say that there are a couple of amendments that we will be voting on this evening. One is from the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands. This motion was moved to remove the provision of the bill that states that the national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians is not protected by parliamentary privilege. This is an amendment that is easily supportable, because the committee proposed by the legislation would make any type of disclosure or whistle-blowing from the proposed committee liable to prosecution under the Security of Information Act. That is a critical element.

The member for Beloeil—Chambly is also proposing an amendment to the motion, and this amendment to the motion is due for consideration because it would partially stifle the Liberal attempt to remove powers of the proposed committee. That really is the basis of concern with respect to this piece of legislation. Just what powers will the committee have, and how much of that power will be controlled by the Prime Minister's Office?

The other area of concern, and it has been mentioned several times, is that the committee chair has already been appointed. The committee chair was known a year ago, even before this legislation came to Parliament. Do we know the qualifications of the chair? Is this just a partisan play, in saying to a member that the member will not be in cabinet but will be put in charge of this important committee? It is not a committee of Parliament but effectively is turning out to be a committee of the Prime Minister's Office. Will it be a political arm of the Prime Minister's Office? A fair question for Canadians to ask is, what are the qualifications of the members who are going to be on this committee?

We on this side of the aisle understand how important it is for government to look after the safety and security of its citizens. Many times in the history of this Parliament it has been argued, and I would argue the same thing, that this is the number one priority of government.

The committee will view a lot of information, but unfortunately the truth is that it is not going to get to see all the information that it needs. In order for the committee to be effective, in order for it to achieve its objective as a true national security committee of Parliament, it needs as much information as it can get.

Furthermore, the committee should report to Parliament. Parliament represents Canadians. We are the ones that the committee should report to.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:40 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I will take this opportunity to emphasize how important this legislation is. We went through a process at committee stage. The member made reference to the number of people who spoke to this legislation. Well over 40 members have spoken to the bill here in the House, not to mention the over 120 opportunities for people to get engaged in the House. There was plenty of feedback at committee stage.

All the fine work that has been done has led to a number of amendments that ultimately have given more strength to the legislation. I wonder if the member could provide some comments in terms of the effectiveness of the committee at proposing amendments.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON

Mr. Speaker, as we have heard throughout the day, many of the more significant amendments to this piece of legislation were rejected by the Liberal majority on the committee.

This speaks to the issue of the openness of this Parliament. As I said earlier, the Prime Minister said that members of the House will have a voice for Canadians, but that voice is being denied because of the actions of the Liberal government.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

It being 6:45 p.m., pursuant to an order made earlier today, it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the report stage of the bill now before the House.

The question is on Motion No. 1. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

All those opposed will please say nay.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And five or more members having risen:

The recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

The question is on Motion No. 2. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

All those opposed will please say nay.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

In my opinion, the nays have it.

And five or more members having risen:

The recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

The question is on Motion No. 3. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

All those opposed will please say nay.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

In my opinion the nays have it.

And five or more members having risen:

The recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

The question is on Motion No. 4. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?