House of Commons Hansard #161 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was place.

Topics

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

Maxime Bernier Conservative Beauce, QC

Madam Speaker, earlier I explained what my colleague from Milton and I experienced. It was quite clear.

Indeed, I am the one who inquired about why our parliamentary privileges were breached. At the time there were mixed messages as to why this happened, but never any clear reason. At the time we were told that some of the Prime Minister's vehicles were empty and that we had to wait. There was also talk of the media bus.

To us, the most important thing is that this privilege was breached. It has been confirmed that this is not the first time this happened to us. Parliamentary conventions of other hon. members are currently being ignored. Let us look at what is happening in committees because it is important for hon. members to be able to express themselves. That is what I want to see.

I am pleased that the chair has acknowledged our right to our privileges and transferred this request to the relevant committees so that we may have a detailed analysis.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Madam Speaker, this is in reference to my Liberal friend. I am reading the Speaker's ruling right now, and there is a recounting of what happened, but at no point did the Speaker make that suggestion. I will read the quote from him: “The media bus, under Parliamentary Protective Service escort, immediately proceeded to Centre Block. Seconds later, after the media bus had proceeded, a House of Commons shuttle bus arrived at the vehicle screening facility but was not allowed to proceed to Centre Block.”

The Speaker does not say it was because of the media bus. We also have testimony from the member for Beauce, who asked the security services, and I tend to believe him. Maybe my Liberal colleague is questioning the veracity of what my friend for Beauce is saying, but I will believe him until it is proven otherwise. I have no reason to doubt that he asked the question and was given the answer from our security services, whom I also believe.

Again, the Liberal members can choose not to believe the security services, but the Speaker at no point in his ruling, and I have read it three times now, says that the media bus was the source of the problem. All he said in the ruling was that the media bus went through and that subsequently three buses were stopped. The member for Beauce then asked the security representative there why, and he was told about the Prime Minister's empty motorcade.

This is why we need to bring this issue to the procedure and House affairs committee. It is so that we can find out what the truth is, rather than hear speculation from the Liberal Party or a suggestion from the Liberals that one of the members of Parliament is lying.

I would like the member for Beauce to recount that specific part of the story, which seems important to me and important for us to investigate.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

Maxime Bernier Conservative Beauce, QC

Madam Speaker, I think my colleague is right. He did a very good translation of what I just said. I said that in French, and it is the same thing in English.

I was there. I was waiting and I asked and was told that there was an empty car, that we had to wait because of the motorcade of the Prime Minister, which was empty at that time. For me, that is what happened.

I am very pleased that the same facts were in the Speaker's decision. I agree with the Speaker, and that is why we must have that debate. It is too bad that we must have that debate in the committee, because the facts are the facts and we must go along with that.

I am very upset about the situation.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

10:55 a.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, as I indicated in my questions, we do take the issue of privilege and access to the House very seriously, as I believe all members of this House should, and we recognize how important it is that we have unfettered access to the floor of the House of Commons.

The Prime Minister has consistently said to his members of Parliament, and has suggested to all members of Parliament, that it always works much better if we represent our constituents' interests here in Ottawa, as opposed to Ottawa's interests in the constituencies. This is something our current Prime Minister truly believes.

In order to represent our constituents' interests here in Ottawa, we need to have that unfettered access. That is something I, as a parliamentarian for many years, take very seriously. That is why I was offended by the members' comments in regard to changing the topic. We should be taking the issue more seriously. I will provide more comments with respect to the previous presentations shortly.

I want to emphasize that we perform many roles inside this chamber and in committee rooms. I would argue that our standing committees have the potential to be the real backbone of future developments of ideas for members of Parliament to be engaged with. The House is an opportunity for individuals to be equally engaged in all sorts of different policy areas. It is absolutely critical that MPs be able to attend our institution here, including all committee rooms on the Hill and on the precinct site, which goes beyond just the Hill. We do have committees that are off the Hill.

It is of the utmost importance that we have access, especially when it comes time to vote. I have been involved previously when similar questions of privilege were raised. When that occurred, I do not believe members at the procedure and House affairs committee tried to say that the government of the day was trying to block members from being able to participate.

After listening to some of the comments coming from across the way, it needs to be made very clear to all members of this House that there is not one member of the House who would be in support of another member not having unfettered access to House. To try to imply something different is just wrong. That is not the case. I know that at least it is not the case within the Liberal caucus, and I would suggest that it applies to all caucuses.

We all, collectively, understand and appreciate the importance of what members of Parliament need to do and are obligated to do. That mandate comes from the constituents who put us here. I do take this issue very seriously.

I have listened to the statements and asked questions of the two Conservative speakers. I am of the opinion that they do not understand the ruling made by the Speaker. What I would like to do is reinforce that. Nowhere in the Speaker's ruling was there any reference, at all, in regard to the Prime Minister or the Prime Minister's motorcade. In fact, it would seem to me that some members are trying to tie other issues into this very important issue of privilege.

I would like to reinforce exactly what the Speaker said. I am going to quote for members who maybe were not listening quite attentively to what the Speaker was saying. They will now have the opportunity to hear it, because I am going to repeat, word for word, in good part, what the Speaker said.

The Speaker stated, “In fact, I have received two reports of the incident. The first, from the House of Commons Corporate Security Officer and Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms, provides an excellent minute by minute summary of events and is supplemented by witness statements. The second report was received from the acting director of the Parliamentary Protective Service.”

I will pause there. I would like to think that no members in the House would actually question the consultation made by the Speaker and what he heard from the specific groups that helped him with the decision he shared with us just an hour ago.

His ruling further stated, “Based on those reports, here is what appears to have happened on March 22. At approximately 3:47 p.m., the bollards at the vehicle screening facility were lowered to allow for the arrival of a bus transporting journalists to Centre Block for the presentation of the budget. The media bus, under Parliamentary Protective Service escort, immediately proceeded to Centre Block. Seconds later, after the media bus had proceeded, a House of Commons shuttle bus arrived at the vehicle screening facility, but was not allowed to proceed to Centre Block. In the ensuing minutes, two more shuttle buses arrived at the vehicle screening facility and were similarly delayed. I am informed that members were on at least some of these buses. During these delays, which lasted a total of nine minutes, two members, the member for Milton and the member for Beauce, were waiting at the bus shelter near the vehicle screening facility. At approximately 3:54 p.m., the member for Beauce entered the vehicle screening facility and made inquiries of parliamentary protective staff about the delays and then decided, at approximately 3:55 p.m.”, which is one minute later, “to leave the bus shelter and walk up the hill. As members will know, it is at around this time that a vote was commencing in the House.”

The Speaker went on to explain, through House of Commons Procedure and Practice, second edition, page 110, as follows:

Incidents involving physical obstruction—such as traffic barriers, security cordons and union picket lines either impeding Members' access to the Parliamentary Precinct or blocking their free movement within the precinct...have been found to be prima facie cases of privilege.

Members across the way who would have heard that would have also heard that there was no reference whatsoever to the Prime Minister's motorcade. What they would know from the ruling of the Speaker was that it was all about a media bus and an escort. That is, ultimately, what was implied in the Speaker's ruling that justified it as a prima facie case.

I listened to the member for Milton's response to that. This is what I love about Hansard. Members across the way can read for themselves what was said by the member. If we ask ourselves if the member relayed any sort of confidence in what the Speaker put on the record minutes before she stood, I would argue no. Her focus seemed to be politicizing the issue by talking about a former prime minister and then trying to apply it to the current Prime Minister.

Let us look at the word “arrogance”, and how the member across the way used it. Then she talked about other things that were taking place in the House of which members should be aware. I have thoughts on those issues too, and I would like to share some of them.

With respect to the current Prime Minister, I believe he has been one of the most accountable, transparent prime ministers we have seen in the House in decades. Members across the way laugh and heckle, but in my tenure as an MLA, I very closely watched the prime ministers, their attitudes, and how they interacted with the public. Never before have I seen prime ministers tour town hall style at open mics, where there were no taped or advance questions given to them, and actually answer questions.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:05 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

Order, please. I want to remind members that all members in the House deserve respect when making their comments. Therefore, I would hope that respect will be afforded to each of the members.

The hon. parliamentary secretary.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, I appreciate that intervention. The point is that we have a Prime Minister who, over the last year and a half, has demonstrated to Canadians first hand that there is a higher sense of accountability in Ottawa, and not only within the Prime Minister's Office. A couple of weeks back, the Minister of National Defence went to Winnipeg North to meet with members of our Ukrainian community, to talk about what was happening in Ukraine and Canada. As the member across the way—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I am truly sorry to interrupt the member opposite. However, he has really gone off into the north here. We are talking about a simple motion and an amendment. I do not find any of his comments with respect to the travels of the Minister of National Defence

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

That is not a point of order.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Madam Speaker, it goes to relevance, which is a point of order.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

On relevance, as the member knows, there is some leeway. The member is actually getting to the point, I am sure. However, as the member knows, there is some leeway in the debates, and I would again ask the members to afford that respect and not heckle or react badly.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Madam Speaker, just to be abundantly clear, I was not heckling the member; I was just asking him to—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I am just saying that there has been some heckling, and I hope members will ensure they refrain from doing that.

The hon. parliamentary secretary.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, it is interesting that the member would stand on a point of order on relevance when I did not see him stand on a point of order on relevance when his colleague talked about the Prime Minister and his attitudes. The Conservative Party needs to understand that if one member starts talking about an area and is trying to make a case that another member does have the opportunity to address the points his colleague has raised. That is what is happening. If we have individuals from the Conservative opposition being critical and making reference to a point of order, then start talking about Standing Orders and so forth—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I would just remind the parliamentary secretary that I have already ruled on that. The debate is not on the point of order that was just made; rather the debate is on the motion.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, when we look at what the member's presentation was all about, did we hear anything with regard to the media bus, which the Speaker referenced? Ultimately, the opposition members are sending a mixed message. On the one hand, they are trying to emphasize that they have a matter of privilege. I am very sympathetic to what the members have referenced in moving the motion. However, I question why the members across the way took as much time as they did. Much in their speeches was not about the privilege itself, but about other things that were not related to the privilege.

That is why it is important, and why I started to address some of those aspects. In good part, it needs to be done. The amendment to the motion asks to send this to the procedures and House affairs committee, which is the committee it should go to, and that it should be given priority. As I indicated, I have sat on PROC before. A nice thing about a standing committee is that it has the opportunity to set its own agenda. There is nothing to prevent PROC, for example, from meeting more than the two days a week for two hours a day. In fact, that is what is happening today. As we speak, PROC is meeting.

Therefore, the member's amendment to the motion really is not necessary. When I was a member of PROC, we all understood the importance of a motion that passed from the House dealing with privilege and the responsibility of that. If in fact the motion does pass, I would like to think the committee will be afforded the opportunity to set aside the time to do one or more things if it chooses to do so. This would be determined by the membership of the committee.

Just based on the two speeches before mine, my concern is that even if it does pass in the House, what will be the focus of the debate going into the procedures and House affairs committee? Is it really and truly going to be about the privilege on which the Speaker has ruled, or is it going to become an expansion of a wide variety of other issues about which the Conservative Party, in some ways working with the New Democratic Party, is going to want to talk?

That is why I believe, as government, we need to take the issue very seriously. I encourage all members to take the issue very seriously. If we believe at the core of the question of privilege, as presented by the Speaker, is about unfettered access to the Parliament buildings, then that is what it should be about.

I am hoping that by standing and speaking to the motion, members across the way will recognize that if in fact they genuinely believe, as they want me and others to believe, that this is about the privilege raised, then the comments that were made by the previous two speakers were not necessarily warranted. That was where the focus appeared to be.

That is why it is good to repeat the fact that we have a very serious issue before the chamber. I will continue to argue that what is in the best interest of this institution is that we recognize the importance of unfettered access. We are not just talking about votes. We are talking about debate, committee rooms, the chamber, and committee rooms outside the parliamentary precinct. That is what the focus of the debate should be.

I started off by saying that I was disappointed, and the reason I am disappointed is that the two previous speeches set the tone in the wrong direction. I would invite members opposite to refocus. What is important here is not the political shots but rather—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:20 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Chilliwack—Hope.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC

Madam Speaker, the member talked repeatedly about how serious this is and that we need to take this matter seriously, at the end of the day. He said that when he was in opposition, under a Conservative majority government, and sat on the procedure and House affairs committee, they all understood that this sort of issue and the issue of a member's privilege would take precedence at the procedure and House affairs committee. That is when Joe Preston was the chair of that committee.

Now we have seen a different style. We have seen that it is actually the Prime Minister's Office that is setting the agenda for the procedure and House affairs committee with this motion to strip members of the opposition of their rights in this place. Therefore, it is no longer the committee that is setting the agenda. It is the Prime Minister's Office.

If the member wants this matter to be taken seriously, it is this House that will need to take up its role and instruct the committee that because this matter is so serious, it needs to be given precedence over all other matters the Prime Minister's Office wants that committee to discuss.

Will the member agree with me that the way we can show, as a House, that we want this matter to be taken seriously is to instruct the procedure and House affairs committee to put this at the very top of the agenda at the very earliest opportunity?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, my last appeal was to get members, of the Conservative caucus in particular, to focus on the issue of the privilege itself. That has nothing to do with the Prime Minister's Office. Why do the Conservatives continue to want to bring up the Prime Minister's Office? It has absolutely nothing to do with it, and the members know that full well.

The Prime Minister was here for the day. The motorcade might have been parked there all day. I do not know. Why do the members of the Conservative Party continue to try to bring up the Prime Minister's Office? I say, shame on them. The issue is access of privilege, and the Conservatives should be focused on that issue. To try to loop in the Prime Minister's Office is disingenuous. If the Conservatives are serious about the issue and want to debate the issue, they should stay focused on the privilege.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Madam Speaker, as a new member of Parliament in this place, with a year and a half of experience, certainly not as much as the member opposite, I remember very clearly the day I was handed my parliamentary ID. I have read the back of it many times. It states:

Under the law of parliamentary privilege, the bearer has free and open access at all times, without obstruction or interference, to the precincts of the Houses of Parliament to which the bearer is a member.

I have read this many times, and I understand the gravity. We are, each one of us in this House, more than just individual members of Parliament. We are representatives of every single region of Canada, and through us, hundreds of thousands, indeed millions, of Canadians have their voice in this place.

It is amazing that we can all be reading the same Speaker's report and have such different interpretations of it. No one on this side of the House is questioning the Speaker's ruling. The Speaker laid down the facts on the time frames that happened. He did not go into the reasons for the delay, but he did explain to this House that there was a delay. This House had the opportunity to listen to the member for Beauce and the member for Milton give their reasons as to why they thought the delay happened. They explained that to this House. The member for Beauce quite clearly went up to Parliamentary Protective Services and asked the reason for the delay. He was told that it was because of the Prime Minister's motorcade.

My question for the member opposite is this. Is the member standing in this House and accusing the member for Milton and the member for Beauce, on the record, of standing in this House and misleading this House and giving false reasoning? I would like to know his answer.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the first comments made by the member, because it is indeed a privilege to be here to represent our constituencies, and it is one of the reasons I argued for unfettered access to the parliamentary precinct. I do not think anyone would question that.

With respect to the specific question the member asked, at times I think members might have selective hearing. If he listened to the member for Beauce, this is what he said in response to a question. He said there was no specific reason given by personnel at the gate. They made reference to the Prime Minister's motorcade, but they also made reference to the media bus. Why has that point been lost? Why does the opposition give the motorcade as the reason? Why do members want to give that impression? I am suspicious of that.

I would like to see the focus of the debate, no matter how long we have it today, whether it is five minutes or five hours, be what the member started his speech with, which is why it is so important that we have unfettered access to this facility.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Madam Speaker, the member opposite said that this is a very serious issue, that we have to have parliamentary access and that we could be talking about this for five hours in the House. Would it be better to talk for five hours in the House or to have the procedure and house affairs committee, which is sitting right now, take some action to figure out, if these vehicles were in the way, what we are going to do to prevent that? Could the member comment?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, I would like to hear what other members might have to say on this issue in the House. I have tried to gauge where I should be going. I believe in unfettered access to the parliamentary precinct, but I am very concerned about why members opposite, the two Conservative speakers in particular, said what they said. It did not seem to me to be just about unfettered access. It seemed to be a little more politically driven, and that concerns me.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Madam Speaker, one of the things I think the procedure and house affairs committee would be able to look at is the fact that with the construction, there seem to be priorities for vehicles approaching the House. I have raised this before. I am curious about whether the parliamentary secretary has actually engaged with other ministers about that.

When we try to enter and exit the main entrance for parliamentarians, we often have ministers' vehicles idling and blocking not only pedestrian traffic but the buses. In fact, that happens on a regular basis when we enter and exit the premises. We often find some of the ministers' vehicles parked along the pedestrian access that is granted because of the construction. There are not only members of Parliament there. There are members of the public and tourists and so forth. It would be interesting to find out what is going on with regard to those things.

I would ask the parliamentary secretary, since it has been raised before, if there have been discussions among cabinet ministers and the Prime Minister about the ministers' vehicles not only idling for long periods of time but blocking access by pedestrians, members of Parliament, and buses, because they choose not to leave that zone of activity.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, all of us need to be concerned about the construction that has been taking place. Virtually since I was elected, West Block has been under reconstruction, and as a result, it has put a great deal more pressure on the issue of access, but all in all, I think it has worked out quite well.

It is not just ministerial vehicles. There are other vehicles that also come onto Parliament Hill. Whether it is construction vehicles or taxis, all sorts of traffic comes up onto the Hill. It is a concern, and what is most important, is unfettered access.

If we go back, prior to the construction, there might have been one complaint in eight or nine years. Just a couple of years ago, we probably had two or three questions of privilege raised. The frequency has increased, and that is something we should all be concerned about.