Debates of May 2nd, 2017

Forestry Industry

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in the House yesterday, the hon. Minister of Natural Resources said, first of all, that he disagrees with the decision to impose unfair and punitive tariffs on softwood lumber; second, that he has created a federal-provincial task force, and I want to emphasize this, to support the forestry industry; and third, that he supports forestry workers. That is all great.

In that case, why is his government being so inconsistent and refusing what, first of all, Quebec, second, the forestry industy, and third, the forestry workers themselves are asking for in terms of support, that is, loan guarantees?

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for accurately portraying our position. We are working with all those across the country who have an interest in this file. Together we are focusing in on the short-term realities of the possibility of layoffs and job losses in Quebec and elsewhere. We are talking about transition in the industry. We are talking about the expansion of export markets. We are taking it seriously, across the country, to do whatever we possibly can to soften the blow of these punitive and unwelcome tariffs.

Comments by the Member for Outremont

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, following a response to a question from a colleague opposite, I learned that the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons was offended by something I said this morning. I went to meet with her to offer my sincere apologies, and I also want to apologize here right now.

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I greatly appreciate the comments made by the hon. member for Outremont.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Over the 11-plus years I have been in this House, I have witnessed all kinds of heckling from all corners of the House, and depending on the subject, some with more volume and some with less. I would hazard to say that if everyone looked in the mirror, members would see that they are guilty on a continuum in some way, shape, or form.

Certainly one of the people who has been the least guilty of that has been the member for Thornhill. In fact, the only thing I can remember is that the member for Thornhill was the victim of one of the most egregious heckles, calling him a piece of waste, from the other side of the chamber. Therefore, I would ask you to maybe reassess that judgment with respect to taking a question from the fine member for Thornhill.

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I am actually grateful to the hon. member for Flamborough—Glanbrook for pointing out the almost always good behaviour of the hon. member for Thornhill, although there was an exception today. Of course, members on all sides, and members around him, need to be mindful of the Standing Orders and the rules and restrain themselves, or else there are consequences, as there were today.

The House resumed consideration of the motion, of the amendment, and of the amendment to the amendment.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to pick up where I left off before question period, in order to discuss this important question of privilege. I must digress a little first, however.

In their responses today, the Prime Minister and the Minister of National Defence repeated the same talking points, regardless of the question. After hearing the Prime Minister give the same answers in the same way to every question he was asked, I have to wonder why this government wants to give the Prime Minister a full question period to answer the opposition's questions. I think he would be able to give identical answers to everything in three minutes and we would see right away that it would always be the same.

To come back to my speech, we can all agree that as representatives, we are all entitled to the same parliamentary courtesies and privileges regardless of our political affiliation. Whether we are on the government benches, on the opposition, or independent MPs, we all have the right to the same consideration when it comes to accessing the House of Commons.

Preventing a parliamentarian from exercising his or her right to vote, regardless of the reason, is unacceptable. The Liberal government was elected on promises of transparency. It referred to sunny ways. It also promised the following on page 29 of the Liberal platform:

For Parliament to work best, its members must be free to do what they have been elected to do: represent their communities and hold the government to account.

That is exactly what we are doing, and it is exactly what the Liberals are trying to do with the proposed changes to our rules, to our Standing Orders, our bylaws, and how our House operates. In light of what has gone on in the past few weeks, it is clear that this promise from the Liberal platform is unfortunately not one that the Liberals will keep, just like the promise they made to have only a small deficit.

The deficit is currently quite enormous and the books will not be balanced before 2055. It is the Minister of Finance himself, not the opposition, who is saying this. If the opposition had not done its job and raised the issue, we would never have found out because the minister kept this tidbit of information to himself. He made it public a few days before Christmas and most Canadians would not have learned this important information. It is not surprising, coming from a political party that mastered the art of making promises during the election and doing the opposite once elected.

The government says that it is honouring its promise to improve and modernize Parliament. On page 30 of the Liberals' platform, we read: “We will not resort to legislative tricks to avoid scrutiny.” That really takes the cake, because it is exactly what the Liberals did.

First there was a discussion paper containing a threat regarding the adoption of a report before a certain date. If that is not a trick, I do not know what is. The Liberals realized that it did not work, so they backed down on their discussion paper and took away the committee's right to do its work. Then they brought the matter back to the House, where they have a majority and where they could be sure to have more control over the opposition members. The government had to back down because of a public outcry.

The government now says that it is backing down and that it wants to go ahead with just what it promised during the election campaign. However, as I just clearly and explicitly demonstrated, not only is the government not keeping all of its promises, but it is cherry-picking the ones it wants to keep. That is a trick.

It still wants to make changes without assuring us parliamentarians that it will not impose any changes without the unanimous consent of all parties of the House. This is a power grab. How else can we describe what this government wants to do?

I would like to quote a few articles. I especially liked one that was in Le Devoir this morning and was entitled “Liberal Doublespeak”. I will not read the whole article, because that would take too long.

However, there are certain passages that warrant our attention. The title of the article is “Liberal Doublespeak”. I will read a few passages.

The parliamentary process has its faults, but that is the price we pay to keep tabs on our governments....In trying to escape that scrutiny, the Prime Minister's Liberals are only making things worse and casting some serious doubt on their promise to respect Parliament.

Since March, work in the House of Commons has been slowed by the opposition's stalling tactics, brought about by an argument largely provoked by the government, its parliamentary leader, and their proposals to make changes to the rules of Parliament. Were it just a matter of making changes, there would be no problem, but the government insisted on a tight deadline and stubbornly refused to commit to not act unilaterally in the event of a stalemate....

The opposition is furious, and rightly so, because, according to the conventions of the House, consensus must prevail, promise or no promise.

I think that is fairly clear. It is not the opposition that is saying it. Anyone who has seen what has been happening here over the past few weeks knows that the opposition is just doing its job. The opposition is defending the right to speak of Canadians who are represented by the MPs they duly elected. That is what we are doing, and the media is starting to pick up on it. Surprise. Now the Liberals are trying to take a small but strategic step backwards. Unfortunately, as we can see from the editorial in this morning's edition of Le Devoir, journalists and Canadians can see right through those tactics.

The article goes on as follows:

This backtracking is welcome, but the Leader of the Government is using it as a pretext to issue a warning.

Did I understand the meaning of the new proposal correctly? The Leader of the Government in the House of Commons is giving us a warning.

She wrote, “under the circumstances, the government will need to use time allocation more often in order to implement” its legislative agenda. One would think she was a Conservative minister.

When the Liberals were on this side of the House, they sang a different tune. They promised sunny ways, a new way of doing things, and so, so much respect. Now it looks like they have opted to stick with the tradition of government acting in accordance with rules approved by consensus. That is what we did when we were in power. That is what they should keep doing if they want to restore respect and balance to the House.

The editorial writer went on to say this:

Nothing justifies this threat. After a year and a half in power, the government's legislative agenda is pretty thin. Even so, it has used time allocation to expedite the study of 11 bills. [The Liberals] say they want to consult and talk, but attacking the Conservatives, insisting on taking unilateral action, and threatening closure sends quite a different message to the other parties.

The reason their legislative agenda is being obstructed, as it was last year, is that they are no better now than they were then at resisting the temptation to manoeuver in a bid to take greater control over Parliament. Their appetite for power not only hinders their ability to keep their promises, it is inconsistent with those promises.

Those excerpts were from an editorial by Manon Cornellier in today's edition of Le Devoir.

Mr. Speaker, I believe that if you seek it, you will find the unanimous consent of the members of the House for me to table this article so that everyone can read it.

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

The member for Mégantic—L'Érable is asking for unanimous consent of the House to table a document. Does he have the unanimous consent of the House?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

There is no unanimous consent. Does the member intend to continue? He has the floor.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we are talking about openness and transparency. I have been transparent and I know that some of my colleagues who do not speak French would have been able learn about this great editorial had I been able to table the document.

Yesterday, I also had the opportunity to participate in a scrum where the opposition was commenting on the new discussion paper. We should really be calling it a new attempt by the Liberals to grab power and absolute control over the House of Commons. A journalist asked me if I could explain to Madame Brossard from Brossard why I do not agree with the changes proposed by the Liberals. I would say this to Madame Brossard from Brossard: my role is to stand up for her when the government forgets about her. Today, the government wants to muzzle her because it does not want to hear what she has to say when she disagrees with the government. I am standing up for Madame Brossard from Brossard against the arrogance and absolute power of this government.

That is what Madame Brossard from Brossard has to understand. In the heat of the moment at the press conference, I was unable to think of the right words. I was not sure how to respond to Madame Brossard. However, what Madame Brossard needs to know is that the official opposition, the second opposition party, and the independent members of this House all have a role to play in representing their constituents.

When MPs are prevented from playing their role, when they are prevented from coming here to express themselves and share their constituents' thoughts, when they are prevented from voting, it is all the same thing. Those members are being prevented from playing their role properly. It is your duty, Mr. Speaker, to ensure that all of these rules are followed. I am very grateful that you agreed to allow us to discuss this question of privilege. The number of people who have spoken about it shows that this is a very sensitive issue and that you were right in allowing us to discuss it so that you could hear what all of our colleagues had to say. I am convinced that their comments will be very useful to you in the future.

The Leader of the Government in the House of Commons turned a deaf ear. She never wanted to reassure us despite our repeated requests not to make any changes unilaterally. My colleague the House leader of the official opposition co-signed a letter with her colleague the leader of the second opposition party. They sent that letter to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons more than three weeks ago. We finally received a response this past weekend, or three weeks later. When two people are talking and they ask a question, but the answer arrives three weeks later, I do not call that a discussion. It would take quite some time if we had to wait three weeks for an answer every time we discussed something. I do not call that a discussion. I call that a dialogue of the deaf.

Unfortunately, this answer came quite late. It is true that it came, but it was also released to all the media without allowing for a real discussion, without allowing the leaders to play their role, in other words to talk together to find a way to manage the situation. What about the mutual respect that we should have in this House? If this is transparency, if this is sunny ways, then we will seriously take a pass.

The dictionary definition of arrogant is, “unduly appropriating authority or importance”. What better way to describe this government?

In closing, the government needs to see reason. It needs to take measures to ensure that no member is ever prevented from doing their work. It needs to drop its idea of changing parliamentary procedural rules without the unanimous consent of the members of the House.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the speech by my colleague and friend from Mégantic—L'Érable. He spoke for about twenty minutes, but I heard him say little about the actual subject, which is the lack of access to the House of Commons in order to vote. This is a very important matter that we must consider, a problem that we must solve. This happens in almost every Parliament.

I would like to know whether my colleague wishes to send this matter to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs as quickly as possible to study this problem in order to find a solution and ensure that it never happens again. Or does he want to continue speaking in this place for a very long time and prevent us from working on solving the problem?

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is rather ironic because there was a closure motion yesterday and another today.

We are prepared to speak and to express our opinion. I believe that people expect us to talk about this question of privilege, and that is what I am doing. I know that my colleague was here for part of my speech and that he listened to what I had to say. However, he should have understood that my speech was about parliamentarians' privileges. These privileges give us the right to unfettered access to this place. These privileges give us the right to speak freely and to represent our constituents without any constraints. The opposition is fighting so that the government's backbenchers can enjoy these privileges and their power. That is what my honourable colleague should have understood and retained from my long 20-minute speech.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question has to do with my colleague's speech.

Does he know what drove the Liberals' 180 on this issue? They first time the question of privilege came up, they totally shut down debate instead of taking the stance that a committee should look at the issue, which is what they are saying now. After a few hours, they decided that was enough, they did not want to hear another word about it, and they would not send it to committee. Now they are telling us this issue has to go to committee as quickly as possible and the debate has to end.

Can the member tell me why the Liberals reversed their stance on referring this issue to committee? The first time we talked about this, they said it was out of the question and shut down debate. Now they are saying we need to expedite things and send the question to committee immediately.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for that observation, which is very relevant to this debate. Indeed, we have seen this government flip-flop more than once over the past few weeks.

The government seems to flip-flop every day now, because it is reacting to the public service and to what the newspapers are saying. The government does not control Parliament, and that is what it wants. It is tyring to do so, but it is realizing that, fortunately, there are parliamentary rules and traditions that prevent it from doing whatever it wants. The reality has caught up with them.

My hon. colleague saw it for himself, as the government tried to cut off the debate, which addresses a very important matter, a question of privilege. Certain impediments prevented some members from voting. Our rules and traditions are what protected them. That is precisely what we are standing up for, and that is precisely why we are here and why the government realized that it had to back down. It did a complete 180, and now it wants to send this question of privilege to committee.

That is another trick. The government wants to do this because it wants to put an end to our filibuster. The government realized that we figured out what it is up to with the changes it is making to the rules and procedures of the House. It realized that changes like that could not be passed without unanimous consent. The government realized that the opposition would not stand for what it is doing. That is another reason why the government keeps flip-flopping.

As the editorial writer said this morning, it is not necessary. The opposition has a role to play and it will continue to play that role.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, we were here today because of the issue of unfettered access to the parliamentary precinct. This is not the first time. In fact, in recent years I have had to deal with it at the procedures and House affairs committee. Prior to going to PROC, it justifies a few hours of debate; then there is a vote, and it goes to committee.

Now, on the other hand, there is a hidden agenda coming from the Conservative Party on this issue. The member actually made reference to it, and I applaud him for doing so, but other members of the Conservative Party have also made reference to it, and for them, it is all about filibustering. They are filibustering on a matter of privilege, the issue of access, which every member of the House takes very seriously, with the exception, it would appear, of some from the Conservative benches, who want to manipulate this issue in a very irresponsible fashion. That is what we see when opposition members admit this is a filibuster.

They are debating it today because they want to have a filibuster on the very important issue of unfettered access. I know the constituents I represent would like to see a modernized Parliament. They would like to ensure that all members have unfettered access to the chamber. I believe they would be disappointed in the irresponsible behaviour of the Conservatives, because there is a responsibility for the official opposition to also be responsible inside the House. Today we have not witnessed responsible opposition.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Speaker, thank you for allowing me to respond. Once a day is enough. I will answer the question.

The hon. parliamentary secretary has a lot of experience in the House, but, unfortunately, he does not seem to have listened to my colleagues' speeches. I think that the parliamentary secretary is talking about tricks. He is talking about all of the tools that the opposition has at its disposal to make itself heard. However, we, the opposition, are not making our own voices heard. We are making the voices of Canadians heard. Canadians are saying, through us and all of the methods at our disposal, that this government is going too far. They are saying that this government is using tricks. We have been talking about a discussion paper. Let us look back at what has happened. The government presented a discussion paper. Discussion means that we talk but that no decisions are made. First development: the discussion paper was sent to committee and, all of a sudden, a decision has to be made and the government will impose it, if necessary.

That is what happened. It was another trick. Fortunately opposition members saw through it. Fortunately, my colleagues saw through it. That is why it is important to remember that the rule for accessing Parliament is not the only important rule. All our rules are important. Some members, my colleagues, were prevented from coming to vote here and this government is trying to take away our right to speak. It is trying to take away our right to represent our constituents.

That is what the parliamentary secretary, my hon. colleague, should have understood during our interventions. That is the truth.

[Dianne Lynn Watts, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I find the comments on that side of the House very interesting. In light of the current history of this Liberal government in trying to change the Standing Orders, shutting down debate, invoking closure, today's events at the procedures and House affairs committee, and removing opposition day motions, I wonder if my colleague could comment on how much confidence he feels that these issues, which are so important, will be dealt with at the PROC committee.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the answer is in the question.

The fact that this type of question even needs to be asked in the House shows that there is a problem. We have noticed that there is a problem that affects every member on this side of the House. This problem also exists for the members across the way, but it especially affects the backbench Liberal MPs who are also getting tired of this procedural wrangling.

There is a simple solution. All the government has to do is get rid of the threat hanging over the opposition that our rules are going to be changed without consensus or unanimous consent, and then everything will be just fine.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise this afternoon to participate in the debate on the question of privilege.

For some Canadians, this debate may seem a bit antiquated, a bit technical. They may not fully understand what it is we are talking about. Notwithstanding that, let us make no mistake about it that the debate today is of high importance, because it goes to the foundations of our democracy. It goes to the heart of the ability of members of Parliament to perform their functions to collectively represent Canadians.

Having regard for the importance of this debate on privilege, it is disappointing to see that the current Liberal government has responded by trying to shut down debate, by trying to silence members of Parliament by bringing forward time allocation.

Canadians will remember that during the last election, the Prime Minister talked so much about sunny ways. He waxed and waned eloquently. He talked about how there would be sunlight brought into this place and how everything would be wonderful, that members would be able to speak and vote freely and that we would have a government that respected the will of Parliament, and he admonished the previous Conservative government for bringing in time allocation, which of course is perfectly within the rules. It is in the Standing Orders.

That was fair. There were a lot of Canadians who accepted that, who said that perhaps Parliament could work better, and they entrusted the Prime Minister to deliver. What we have seen, like so much of what we see from the Prime Minister, is that the words that he espoused during the election campaign were nothing more than empty words, because on this issue he has tried to shut down debate.

The government is trying to shut down debate, but it is not just on this issue. It is on multiple issues. The government has moved time allocation more than a dozen times already. What is even worse is that the government House leader has now indicated that the government will use this issue as a pretext to invoke time allocation on a regular basis, so we have now a complete 180° turnaround from the government. Eighteen or 19 months ago, the Liberals were admonishing the previous Conservative government for imposing time allocation, and today the government House leader is talking about bringing in time allocation all the time, regularly, and with enthusiasm.

It really speaks to the lack of trust that Canadians should have in the current government. I think that every day more and more Canadians recognize that the current government simply cannot be trusted.

To the substance of this important debate on this issue of privilege, it arose on the day of the budget when access by the hon. members for Beauce and Milton to the parliamentary precinct to be able to get into this chamber and vote was impeded. Their access was impeded when they tried to access a House of Commons bus to come to the chamber to vote, to do what hon. members should do. The bells were ringing. They waited. They saw a bus coming. The bus driver apparently saw them, but the bus could not get to them because the bus was stopped. It was blocked by either the Prime Minister's empty motorcade or a media bus or a combination of the two. Nonetheless, it was blocked, and it was blocked, according to the hon. member for Beauce, for some nine minutes. As a result, the hon. members for Milton and Beauce were unable to vote.

Upon the conclusion of that vote, those hon. members rose in their places and immediately alerted this House that their access to this House had been impeded, that they had been prevented from doing the job that their constituents had sent them here to do and doing what their constituents expect them to do, which is to vote on matters before the House of Commons, and that consequently there had been a breach of their parliamentary privilege.

Upon hearing the evidence from the hon. members for Beauce and Milton, Mr. Speaker, you ruled that there was indeed a prima facie breach of a member's privilege.

What should have happened then, and what has always happened upon the Speaker's finding of a prima facie breach of privilege, was for a debate to take place in this chamber, for a vote to take place, and in the event that the members of this House affirmed the ruling of the Speaker in finding that there was in fact a breach of privilege, the matter would then be referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs so that the issue of privilege could be studied and the committee could get to the bottom of exactly what happened.

That is not what happened in this case. What should have happened did not happen because the government decided instead that it wanted to attack the rights of hon. members to defend and protect the privileges of this House. What the government did in that regard was to bring forward a motion to proceed to orders of the day. In so doing, what the government did was shut down the ability of hon. members to debate the issue of privilege, to vote on the issue of privilege, and to have the matter referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, where it would have received precedence at that committee, just as it receives precedence in this House upon the Speaker's finding.

What the government did was unprecedented. No government before has done what the current government did. What the current government did was very serious. It was fundamentally an attack on this place. It was an attack on this institution and on all hon. members, because the ability to debate and vote on a question of privilege is no small matter. It is significant. It is fundamental. It is fundamental to the ability of members of Parliament to perform the functions of the member of Parliament. It is fundamental to the ability of members of Parliament to do their job. That is why privilege is not the property of the government; it is the property of this chamber and it is the property of all 338 members of Parliament.

To understand the significance of what the government tried to do, it is perhaps important to have some understanding of the history of privilege, the foundation of privilege.

Privilege goes back centuries. It goes back to the 14th and 15th centuries, to the United Kingdom, when the king would interfere, impede, obstruct, use force, and in some cases arrest hon. members of Parliament, attacking and impeding their ability to do their jobs.

Sir Thomas More was one of the first speakers in the House of Commons who petitioned the king for the recognition of certain privileges of the House. Those privileges included the right to be free from interference, obstruction, and use of force by the king and his executive in the House of Lords. What privilege really is and what it turned out to be was a compromise among the king, the executive, and members of Parliament, that Parliament, the House of Commons, would be a place where members could speak freely, debate freely, criticize, and depose the government without interference from the executive.

In Canada, privilege was imported from the United Kingdom. The type of force, arrests, and intimidation that British members of Parliament had endured in the 14th and 15th centuries had passed. By the time of Canada's Confederation, however, what had not passed was the significance of members' parliamentary privilege. That is why parliamentary privilege was enshrined in our Constitution. Section 18 of the Constitution Act of 1867, provides that the House may define members' privileges provided that those privileges do not exceed the privileges enjoyed by members of the British House of Commons at the time of Confederation in 1867.

Indeed, the House, through the act of Parliament, adopted all those privileges. Among those privileges is freedom from obstruction and interference. That is precisely what this question of privilege relates to: the interference of the hon. members for Beauce and Milton's access to the chamber to perform the most important function of a member of Parliament, and that is to stand and vote on behalf of their constituents.

When we are talking about the issue of privilege, we are talking about something that has been constitutionally protected. We are talking about something that has been protected by our courts. We are talking about something that has been protected by the common law. It is why what the government sought to do to prevent members of Parliament from having an opportunity to debate and vote on privilege is so significant.

When the arguments were put forward to the government about the seriousness of what was happening and the consequences of what was happening, the response of the government was, more or less, that it did not care. Given some of the actions of the government, when it comes to the disrespect it has exhibited to this institution, perhaps we should not be surprised that this was its attitude. However, Canadians should be surprised that, one by one, Liberal MP after Liberal MP stood and voted in favour of the government's extinguishing the ability of members of Parliament to defend and protect their privileges.

It seems a lot of members over there perhaps forgot, or maybe they do not care, that they are not members of the government, other than those Liberal MPs who are members of cabinet. Perhaps they lost sight of the fact that members' privileges are privileges that do not just protect opposition members and enable them to do their work on behalf of their constituents. Members' privileges protect all members of the House, including government backbench MPs so they can carry out their jobs as well.

It is unfortunate that it took the hon. member for Perth—Wellington, my colleague, to stand and question whether the government could in fact shut down a debate on privilege without a vote. He argued that it was a violation of privilege.

You, Mr. Speaker, agreed with the hon. member for Perth—Wellington. As a result of that ruling, we are having a debate on this question of privilege. It should not have happened that way. It need not have happened that way. However, it happened because of the arrogance of the government.

It does raise a question as to how that happened and why it happened. Why was the government so determined to extinguish the rights of hon. members to defend members' privileges? The answer is that had the motion passed the House of Commons, it would have been referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, where it would have received precedence, just as it receives precedence in this chamber. That happened to be an inconvenience to the government because the government was simultaneously trying to ram through, at the procedure and House affairs committee, the rules of this place, the rules in terms of how Parliament functioned. The government was trying to strip the rights and abilities of hon. members of the House to hold the government to account, and so we got this mess.

The government has backed off a little in terms of its efforts to ram through changes in the procedure and House affairs committee. However, while it backed off a little at the procedure and House affairs committee, it nonetheless remained intent on shutting down debate on a most important question of privilege.

What the government has done, and is doing, is wrong. It is undemocratic. It is an attack on all members of Parliament and, as a result, it is an attack on all Canadians. When the abilities of members of Parliament to speak and represent their constituents is impeded upon, that impacts all Canadians who count on us to represent them here every day.

My colleagues in the opposition will continue to do what is necessary to hold the government to account, to call on the government to respect the House, to respect this institution, to respect the ability of members of Parliament to stand and vote on behalf of their constituents, and to respect the privileges afforded to all hon. members in the House.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, today's debate is in fact about unfettered access to the parliamentary precinct.

As I indicated before, this is not the first time we have had to deal with this issue. In fact, if we go back, May 12, 2015, was the most recent incident prior to this. During that debate, a total of five speakers—three New Democrats, one Liberal, and the Green Party representative—spoke to that matter of privilege.

We have had 37 speakers, and that was even before we started today. We also know that members of the Conservative Party have said that this matter of privilege is all about a filibuster. There is a responsibility of the opposition, especially the official opposition, to behave in a more responsible fashion in dealing with the issue of unfettered access to the parliamentary precinct.

I would suggest there are in fact some games being played, and it is not fair to point the finger in one direction. All parties need to take a look at what they are doing, especially on this issue with respect to the Conservative Party.

Does the member believe there is a responsibility of the official opposition to behave in a responsible fashion when it comes to debate? If we had 338 members debate everything that came before the House, it would take over five weeks to do one measure, and we might have 100 more measures to do. Mathematically, it is just not possible, unless we have a Conservative opposition that has one purpose and one purpose alone, and that is try to demonstrate it is dysfunctional. If it is dysfunctional, it is because of an incompetent, unreasonable official opposition. It does not take much. Give me 12 members and I can cause havoc, too. It does not mean it is responsible.

I am challenging the member across the way to acknowledge that there is an onus of responsibility for the official opposition to do the right thing. Maybe the member could tell us why the Conservatives have chosen to filibuster this matter of privilege, if it is so important.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in response to the question, or perhaps statement, of the parliamentary secretary to the government House leader, I am a little taken aback that he would have the audacity to talk about this question of privilege going to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. That is precisely what the government tried to prevent from happening. The government tried to shut down an opportunity for the committee on procedure and House affairs to get to the bottom of this issue.

It is the government that tried to do so. The only reason it backed down, although it never really did back down, was the hon. member for Perth—Wellington stood and said that it did not have a right to do it, and the Speaker agreed with him.

We are going to continue to fight against the effort on the part of the government to roll back the rights and privileges of hon. members. It is unbelievable the member would talk about the procedure and House affairs committee, because it was exactly that, as I said, the government tried to prevent from getting to the bottom of this issue.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague gave a very intelligent discourse on this issue.

One of the words that comes to mind is “privilege”. As I have experienced an incident in which I was not allowed to get into the House in the past term, I understand what that privilege means.

One thing outside of our House, for people to better understand this, is that we all understand that doctors have privileges, for example, to work in health facilities. If that privilege were stopped, the outcry from the public if doctors were not allowed to get to an emergency department to see their patients would be huge.

I would like to ask my colleague if he could expound further on what this discussion we are having here means to our citizens, and how critically important it is to us.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague is absolutely right. The ability of an hon. member to access this House in order to vote on a matter before the House is of utmost importance. Indeed, there is nothing more important in terms of the function of a member of Parliament than to stand up and vote on matters before the House on behalf of their constituents. That is what our constituents elect us to do. Unfortunately, in the case of the hon. member for Milton and the hon. member for Beauce, that privilege was infringed upon when they were prevented from getting here. That is why this debate is so important.

In terms of the consequences of what could have happened, one consequence was that two hon. members were not able to stand in their place on behalf of 100,000 or so constituents. That is a pretty significant consequence, but it could have been an even worse consequence if we had been talking about a vote of confidence. The inability of the members to access this House, to show up and vote, could have the consequence of literally resulting in a potential loss of confidence in the government. We are talking about very serious consequences that could flow from the privileges of members being infringed upon in terms of being able to access this place.