House of Commons Hansard #168 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was opposition.

Topics

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Karine Trudel NDP Jonquière, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his comment.

I was not at the committee meeting this morning. I was here in the House, but I did hear about what happened. I found it very strange. This is a perfect example of how the government does not care about consensus or about making sure that all parties are included in the process. Make no mistake: despite what is happening in the House right now and the subject of this debate, the government is still unilaterally calling the shots. There is no consensus and no discussion.

We have to be able to express ourselves. Of course there have to be rules in place, but it has to be done in a way that leads to consensus. Here in the House, we have confidence, but what kind of clear mandate will we send if there is a committee? Will we still have confidence? Will there still be credibility? Are people saying whatever they want just to look good, say the right words, and get some nice photo ops? That is not good enough. We have to make sure that what happened never happens again. This has to be more than lip service. There has to be meaningful action.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Jonquière for her kind words. I know how hard she fought to come to the House, to take her seat, and to be able to speak as she did today, not only on this question of privilege but on many different issues. I appreciate the work she has done in representing her constituents here and taking that role very seriously.

I am pleased to rise today to debate this question of privilege. I must note that not all members will be able to give a speech on the question of privilege because the government House leader has invoked closure for the second time. That means many members who had planned to speak later today will be unable to do so and in a sense have their privilege breached as well because they will be unable to stand in the House and give wonderful speeches, like I just heard from my colleague from Jonquière.

We are here because the member for Milton and the member for Beauce were attempting to make their way to this place for a vote on budget day. Unfortunately, they were unable to make it because the parliamentary buses were blocked from picking them up at the bus stop due to the Prime Minister's passing motorcade, which we learned was empty at the time. This prevented my two colleagues from performing their duties as elected representatives.

Voting is a very important part of our job. Having our voting privileges breached is serious and warrants debate in the House. This is not the first time we have debated this question of privilege. The first time, the Liberals closed down the debate on this important issue and then we had the Speaker rule against that closure, saying it was not within the rules of the House. He stated that our Standing Orders clearly stated that questions of privilege took precedence over everything else.

Unfortunately, we find ourselves today with the same heavy-handed tactic. The government House leader today invoked closure once again to shut down this debate. This has never been done in the House before and the arrogance of this move is unprecedented.

I have a great deal of respect for members of the Parliamentary Protective Services and I tip my hat to them. They work to hard to ensure MPs' privileges, rights, and duties are supported. I have a lot of respect for the drivers of the buses that shuttle us around the parliamentary precinct and all the staff on them.

The question of privilege is not about laying fault on these workers. We have the RCMP in the House that answers solely to the government. Earlier when the government House leader said that we needed answers, all she had to do was ask the RCMP, which is under the government's purview, what happened and the Liberals would have the answer. We need an absolute guarantee that this will never happen again.

The issue at hand is that MPs were prevented from performing their duties. Why did this happen? Why were the buses prevented from bringing MPs to this place? Did the Prime Minister's team know what was happening? Is there a potential that this could happen again? We need answers to these questions. As I mentioned, the Speaker previously found a prima facie breach of privilege for a reason.

Clearly this matter should be studied further at the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, but, and this is an important but, we should not shut down debate in the House on privilege in order to do so. The government continues to quash debate on the question of privilege. Instead of allowing Parliament to freely debate the breach of members' ability to move freely about the precinct, once again the Liberals are shutting down the debate.

At the same time this place debates parliamentary privileges, our colleagues at the procedure and House affairs committee are filibustering the government's attempt to unilaterally change the Standing Orders and the rules for how Parliament functions. The problem is that the government is trying to change the rules to benefit the Liberals by taking away power from the opposition and giving more power to the government. This is anti-democratic, especially in a system such as ours where the government already holds a significant amount of power. The rules we have are part of our system of checks and balances to prevent this type of abuse from happening.

Why would the government put an end to this type of debate is a question many of us on this side of the House are asking. I would dare say that some members on the opposite side of the House are also asking this question and do not condone this behaviour in the House of Commons.

For those members on the Liberal side who are new parliamentarians, as I am, I ask them to think about their privilege being breached, and the privilege of the people they were sent to represent, by not having access to the Hill for a vote. Would they not want the ability to fully debate it? I know my colleagues on this side of the House want the ability to debate this and that is why we find a full speaker's list, even though we know the Liberals are shutting down debate once again through closure on this.

What the Liberals are doing in the House is a complete and utter power grab. I want them to think seriously about this behaviour and how Canadians feel about this blatant disrespect of those of us elected to be in the House.

Being able to come here and do our jobs every day is vital to the ability we have to represent our ridings. That is why we call it privilege. Shutting down debate on our ability to do our work sends a clear message to Canadians about the priorities of the Liberals in silencing anyone who does not agree with them. That is the role of the opposition in this place and as the opposition, we have tools available to us to hold the government to account.

In fact, one of the first things we are all provided with is the big green book, our parliamentary bible by O'Brien and Bosc. This book of procedure provides new parliamentarians with all we need to perform to the best of our ability. I have learned so much from these rules in the past 18 months, which allow me to represent my riding with dignity and integrity.

I am not a person who gives up easily. That is probably a large reason why I sit here today and maybe that is why I appreciate these tools and place such a huge importance on them. When I am looking for the best way to fulfill my role as a parliamentarian. I am often led to that big green book, looking to use every tool available to me. I am certain that is exactly what is expected of me by everyone who voted to send me here.

I mentioned earlier that as a new parliamentarian I attended a luncheon in the beautiful Sir John A. Macdonald Building across the way with all new parliamentarians. Our newly minted Prime Minister bounded into the room, went up onto the stage with his shirtsleeves rolled up, grabbed the mic, and promised us all that things would be different, that he would listen, that there would be a dramatic difference from the previous prime minister. He promised that the opposition would be respected and heard.

Although I optimistically thought this difference would be positive as promised, it has become crystal clear that this was a bad omen of things to come. Things are different, but not in a positive way for Canadians. That moment, with the Prime Minister coming in, has taken up permanent residency in my memory. Often I have to rise in the House to express my shock at the incredible about-face he has now taken.

I can honestly say that it has become quite clear to me that the Prime Minister is quite comfortable saying one thing and doing another. He said that he would never use omnibus bills. He is using an omnibus bill. He said that this would be the last election under first past the post, but we all know that will not be the case. He said that he would listen and respect the opposition. Well, nothing could be further from the truth. Nothing could highlight this behaviour more than what has been displayed in the House lately.

Here we are again today with MPs who were elected to represent Canadians fighting for respect in the House. The House should be a place of the highest respect, not a battlefield for constitutional rights.

I have risen in the House on my own question of privilege, so I understand well the way that breach of privilege affects our work in the House.

There is a pattern of disrespect and disdain in the House for the opposition and that needs to end. It is a poison that will ultimately harm the best interests of Canadians. The House of Commons has become a poisonous workplace that is tainted by cynical buzzwords from the government.

It started with the attempted power grab last year with Motion No. 6, which the government wisely abandoned. Now we have a new government House leader , but she has been standing in the House acting as though the Liberals have the authority to change everything.

I have to believe even members opposite ran to do better. Today they are being tested on the commitment, which I heard the newly minted Prime Minister promise us all.

We have a constitutional right to be here to vote and debate with unfettered access. This debate should be allowed to continue until such a time as it collapses, not when the Liberals think it should end but when all parliamentarians have had the privilege of having their say.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Filomena Tassi Liberal Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for her passion, particularly with the question of ensuring that all members of Parliament have unfettered access to this place.

I would like to remind everyone in the House that this is day seven of this debate and this is not the first time this issue has arisen. As I have said, over the past number of years this issue has arisen on a few occasions.

Is it not time now to have this matter studied at PROC?

As a new member of PROC, there was some mention of the chair. We have just come through three weeks of a filibuster in PROC and I cannot think of a chair or witnessed a chair who is more attentive and dedicated than the chair of PROC. PROC would willingly take this on and investigate this important matter.

Would the member not agree that in light of the fact that this has happened repeatedly in this place, is it not time now, after seven days, for further investigation and that a wholesome and full investigation take place at PROC?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON

Mr. Speaker, the time for this to move on is when debate collapses, when there is not one more person in this House who wants to rise and be heard on this important matter. That is the time. It is not for the member opposite or the government House leader or me to decide that. It is for the rules of this House which say that as long as members stand to speak to an issue, we continue to debate.

We must respect the rules of this House, and not push forward on our individual needs. We need to look at what is best for Canadians. When every member has finished speaking, that is the point when we will talk about where this goes further.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Mr. Speaker, we just heard a member of the government talk about the work of the chair of the procedure and House affairs committee.

I want to say that generally, I think that member does very good work. Generally speaking, I appreciate the work that he does in this place. However, we had an incident this morning, which I mentioned, and I think the member was aware of it because she was present when it happened. The chair adjourned the meeting without consulting the committee on that issue whatsoever, even though previously, the government had said it cannot adjourn a meeting without the consent of the committee. This was clearly politically driven. The government did not want to give the opposition the opportunity at the committee to talk about the issues in terms of the Standing Orders and to respond to what the government House leader was doing.

I do not fault the chair of PROC. He was reading a script. I do not know who gave him that script. I do not know where he got those notes. I do know there were a number of very senior staff associated with the government House leader there keenly observing everything that the chair did. He read the script.

There was an active point of order being raised by a member of the Conservative Party. That point of order was ignored and the meeting was ended.

In light of what clearly appears to be some strong direction from the government House leader to the detailed minutiae of what is happening at PROC even to try to prevent a point of order from coming forward, what does the member think is going to happen at PROC after the closure motion is brought to a vote and the issue proceeds to PROC for consideration?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON

Mr. Speaker, in my speech I spoke about respect, and the lack of respect for the rules of this place and the rules of committees that exist in this place. As long as we continue to have this pattern where rules are thrown to the side and the government does whatever it deems to be the thing of the day to do, whatever it is it wants to do that particular day, we are going to continue to have a poisonous workplace here. None of us can sit confidently in our seat knowing that we can use the rules that are provided in this House, that we have all agreed to, and be able to represent the people who have sent us here.

When this leaks over into committees, we start to have this culture of disrespect, this culture where members feel they cannot represent the people who have sent them here. It is that deep lack of respect that is creating cynicism in this House, cynicism that does not belong here, cynicism that the Liberal government and our Prime Minister promised would not be here in this Parliament when he came and spoke to us.

The Liberals need to remember a time not long ago when they sat in this corner, and there were not that many members sitting here in opposition, and how important those tools were to them. I believe it is incumbent upon the members who were sitting here at that time to convey that to the new members so that they understand that elections can change our position and seat in this House very easily. When that happens, members do not want their rights to be violated in the way the government is violating all of our rights.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to join the growing ranks of opposition members imploring our colleagues on the government side of the aisle to vote for the motion to send the question of privilege to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. Before getting to the substance of the debate, though, I am going to start by explaining a bit of the background for the benefit of the people of Calgary Rocky Ridge who may be watching today but have not followed this debate on ParlVU or CPAC and may be wondering what this is all about.

Today's debate is about a question of privilege. Just as power is coupled with responsibility, responsibilities must come with the powers necessary to execute them. When members of Parliament are elected, they are charged with the responsibility to represent their constituents in the House of Commons. In order to fulfill this responsibility, we enjoy certain tools and powers by law and a convention called parliamentary privilege. When they hear the word “privilege”, Canadians might think in positive terms about the special things that people are able to enjoy or do, or in negative terms about things that only certain people get to enjoy without having earned them. When members of Parliament speak of their privileges, they are talking about the tools they need to do their jobs.

It is a fundamental principle of western democracy, especially in Westminster-style parliaments, that process matters just as much as results do. Whether it is a due process of law returning a conviction in court, or parliamentary procedure allowing passage of the law under which charges are laid, the process matters. Parliamentary privileges are an integral part of the means by which Parliament governs Canada. They are far more important than the agenda of any given government since they endure while governments come and go.

This topic received considerable discussion before our recent constituency weeks, so I am going to keep my summary brief. On budget day the member for Milton and the member for Beauce were not able to get to the House of Commons on time to vote since the parliamentary precinct buses were obstructed at the security entrance. This infringed on their right to be here to represent their constituents, so they raised a question of privilege.

The Speaker looked into the matter and found that there was a prima facie case for a breach of privilege, and then the member for Milton moved the appropriate motion to refer the matter to the procedure and House affairs committee. A debate about the exact cause of the blocked buses then ensued. My friend from Beauce recounted that the Parliamentary Protective Service told him that the Prime Minister's empty motorcade exiting Parliament Hill caused the delay. If there is any doubt regarding these remarks, it should not be difficult to track down the constable to whom the member inquired and ask him or her directly, but the House of Commons is not a court. It does not have the power to call witnesses and examine testimony; PROC does. This matter should go to PROC, where witnesses can be summoned and the constable who told the member for Beauce about the Prime Minister's motorcade can appear and face questions for the record and where the Speaker's report on his investigation can be parsed line by line until Parliament has a precise and accurate picture of the day's events.

Given that a case like this arose a few years ago, it should have been obvious that the matter should have immediately gone to PROC for a full review. Although I was not a member of Parliament when Yvon Godin raised his question of privilege about being blocked from attending the House due to security measures for a visiting dignitary, I am going to join my colleagues in mentioning that the matter was immediately referred to PROC where it immediately took precedence over the other business on the agenda at that committee at that time. That was the correct thing to do then and it is the correct thing to do now.

It follows the folkways and customs of this House, as my friend from Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston called them. It upholds the centuries-old tradition of the Standing Orders, yet strangely enough, the Liberals have argued against the motion to refer the question of privilege to PROC and the amendment to have the question take priority over other matters currently before the committee. They even accused the loyal opposition of making this into a partisan issue by discussing the member for Beauce's account of the events.

I for one do not allege malice or intent to breach the parliamentary privilege on the part of the Prime Minister. I do not accuse him of intentionally obstructing access through tactical use of his motorcade. Indeed, from my reading of the Speaker's report, this incident looks like a case of bureaucratic processes that resulted in an innocent and unwitting combination of events resulting in the breach of privilege, yet the parliamentary secretary to the government House leader in his replies displayed a degree of defensiveness that would be unwarranted in this situation were it merely an egregious example of miscommunication and procedural breakdown without the partisan element.

I agree with my colleague from Skeena—Bulkley Valley. I think this parliamentary secretary doth protest too much, yet his protests and defensiveness is all the more reason to get the matter to PROC for a full investigation, not to impugn or condemn the Prime Minister for contemptuous partisan tactics, but to determine the actual cause of the incident and thereby potentially clear him of any suspicion by association with these events.

The government House leader and her parliamentary secretary's ability and willingness to stand up day after day and defend the government's policies and actions in the face of justified criticism are appalling. Indeed, the parliamentary secretary to the government House of leader is steadfast and stalwart at stonewalling against calls for transparency, deftly dodging and deflecting attempts to hold the government accountable. Such a talent is strangely impressive, but this is not the time for him to exercise his uniquely dubious talent and his imperviousness to shame.

Breaches of parliamentary privilege which prevent members from representing our constituents go beyond any temporary part of the struggle of the day. They go to the very root of constitutional representative government, Westminster-style parliamentary procedure, and what in the 19th century was understood as responsible government.

The incident before us today need not and should not be a partisan or policy matter for debate in the chamber. It is an important procedural matter, over which PROC has authority, and blocking its immediate referral to PROC and preventing it from taking priority over other matters at that committee turns this from a serious procedural matter into another partisan point.

The parliamentary secretary to the government House of leader expressed concern about PROC's ability to address the matter, given the tenor of debate in the House so far. We can have a discussion on how well standing committees function in this Parliament, but that topic is a distraction from the point at hand. Whether or not PROC functions as effectively as we would all like is not relevant, because it remains the only proper venue for questions of privilege.

Two opposition members missing a vote on the budget when the government has a majority might not seem like an important issue to many Canadians, but failing to address this matter properly now, when the government was not set to stand or fall on two votes, opens the door to unscrupulous tactics by future governments on critical confidence votes. I am not given to hyperbole or slippery slope arguments, but I must mention that disregarding this question of privilege in refusing to refer the matter to PROC has set a very dangerous precedent.

As other members have mentioned, the legal right of members of Parliament to attend the House of Commons goes back many centuries to a time when the king tried to arrest members to stop them from attending the House or to stop them from voting. The mace, which is present in the House when we sit and is part of our daily ceremony, is a symbol of these hard-won privileges. It was a defensive weapon to symbolize and remember how parliamentarians once needed to resist the power of the crown, its government and its agents by force. The mace is a symbol of how the common people of Canada are represented by members of Parliament, and that the government has no power over them other than through the consent of this House.

I do not believe that parties which exist today would deliberately try to physically prevent members from fulfilling their parliamentary duties, but it is foolish to trust in the goodwill of future generations. The origin and evolution of these privileges through the centuries underscore the importance of protecting them.

If the Liberals get away with not investigating a breach of privilege at this time, a future government might try to subtly, or not so subtly, block opposition MPs from attending the House to vote, and then brush aside criticism by correctly claiming that they were only following the precedent that is attempted to be set by not referring this privilege to committee.

Speaking of dangerous precedents, on the first day of debate on this question of privilege, the Liberals did something hitherto unseen in Westminster parliaments. They cut off the debate on privilege by moving to proceed to the orders of the day. As my friend from Perth—Wellington observed, “Never before in the history of this place has a matter of privilege been dealt with in such a way. Never before in this place has the government shut down and prevented all 338 members of this House from voting on a matter of the privileges of us as parliamentarians. Every other case of privilege has been dealt with one way or another through a vote, either in the affirmative or in the negative, but not in this case.”

Such disrespect for Canada's parliamentary traditions and procedures might not strike the viewers at home as especially momentous. It may look to them like a government just trying to get on with governing, like a government trying to skirt an obstacle in the name of efficiency, but such inefficiency is a necessary check and balance in a democratic form of government.

Democracies are not built for speed but for reasoned deliberation and representation. By shutting down debate on a matter of privilege that goes to the very root of representative government, the Liberals have done serious and potentially irreparable harm to Parliament.

The Liberal government did not stop at one precedent that undermined the foundation of Canada's democratic institutions. As my colleague, the member for Perth—Wellington, identified on April 7, the Liberals tried to circumvent customary practice at PROC itself. Instead of voting on a motion from the House of Commons to refer this motion of privilege to PROC, and thus to order PROC to investigate it immediately, the Liberals tried to have PROC initiate its own study for the matter without an official charge from the House.

This point may seem to be fairly obscure for Canadians not immersed in parliamentary procedure, but it is worth explaining. Standing committees may initiate their own studies with a motion, but they may also discontinue or interrupt those studies with another motion. This means that an important question of privilege could be set aside whenever the Liberal majority on PROC felt like it instead of being addressed immediately and fully, as a charge from the House of Commons would require. The Liberals tried to escape a question of privilege by taking it from mandatory to discretionary, thus allowing it to be discarded at their convenience.

I turn my attention to the topic of PROC as the proper venue for investigations of matters of privilege. I appreciate how delicately my friend from York—Simcoe made the case to Parliament to have access to all the evidence on which the Speaker based his initial finding of a prima facie breach of privilege, so I will echo his remarks. In discussing the Speaker's finding of fact, he said:

Those findings were in reports that were apparently made available to the Speaker. I have not seen those. I do not believe they have been tendered to this House, yet they were the evidentiary basis on which the Speaker's finding was made.

I agree with him that PROC is better suited, and indeed is authorized, for the role of fact-finder, rather than the Speaker, despite the entirely reasonable need for the Speaker to gather facts on which to base a prima facie finding of breach of privilege. Members of Parliament, and by extension, the constituents we represent, have a right to know how our parliamentary privileges are upheld. That right includes access to facts and testimony surrounding incidents of breach, and that access is best granted through PROC.

With respect to my colleague from Beauce's amendment to the motion before us today, I understand that PROC is currently seized with the question regarding proposed changes to the Standing Orders. However, enforcing existing Standing Orders takes precedence over discussing amendments or innovations. It is like arguing over the new rigging for a sinking ship. Repairing and ensuring immediate security and safety has to take priority over redesign.

The remarks of the member for Brossard—Saint-Lambert get to the heart of the government's resistence to this motion. On April 6, she said:

We will not allow the Conservatives to play politics with the rights and privileges of members of Parliament. This is just too important. We will also not let them try to block a study on how we modernize the rules of the House of Commons.

What a ridiculous mischaracterization of what is happening. It is as if she is suggesting, with a straight face and without a hint of irony, that the Conservatives, as well as the other opposition parties, are playing politics by asking PROC to investigate how two members of Parliament were prevented from voting on a budget bill, a confidence motion, when you, Mr. Speaker, had issued a ruling finding a prima facie case of breach of privilege, and that by denying such a referral, against all precedence, somehow the government is not playing politics. She is basically saying that it is not that important if duly elected members of Parliament cannot get to the House to vote on the budget, but ramming through changes to the Standing Orders without all-party consent, contrary to all precedents and convention, so that the government can dodge democratic accountability is important.

Canadians elected us with an expectation that we would follow the rules, not change them to suit whoever is in power at a particular moment. Canadians expect us to respect our democratic institutions. Governments in civilized countries do not get to make up the rules whenever they want to. Well-structured governments have clear rules, with clear procedures to change them. They also have built in checks and balances. Canada's governing institutions have become more and more centralized over the past 50 years, especially since the first Prime Minister Trudeau. More power has passed from the House of Commons to cabinet as the roles of individual MPs have shrunk.

We are now at the point where the only real power opposition MPs and governing party backbenchers have in the House is moral suasion through debate, an appeal to the government's conscience through the power to question, and the power of delay. Other than these very limited powers, the government can pass any law it wants between elections, and the current government wants to reduce these final, very limited powers MPs have to represent their voters.

April 6 was an especially bad day in terms of patronizing Liberal nonsense that treats Canadians and their elected representatives as children. The member for Winnipeg Centre went so far as to lecture this House and two parliamentary veterans on the need to plan their days to get to the chamber more quickly. He lectured them on his own experiences with the parliamentary bus, including his attempt to disembark away from a designated stop. When my colleagues spoke out to express their concern for his safety in attempting to do so, he referred back to his days as an elementary school teacher managing first-and second-grade children, thus implying that fellow members of Parliament were no better self-managers than six-year-old children.

Such comments are outrageously insulting to our hon. colleagues. However, the member for Winnipeg Centre's school metaphor may be useful. Does a student deserve a lecture on punctuality if he or she dutifully waits for the bus but arrives late, because the bus was blocked by the police at the only intersection the bus could cross to get the student to school? Of course not.

It is bad enough that the member insulted fellow MPs, but far more disturbing was the member for Winnipeg Centre's undermining of your authority, Mr. Speaker. He might have denied any intent in doing so, but his later statements contradict him. By brushing off the need to debate, by lecturing other members on punctuality, and by diverting attention from a breach of privilege to the need for a positive work environment, he effectively dismissed your finding of a prima facie case of breach of privilege, a finding that is always accompanied by a motion referring the matter to PROC. This is another example of Liberal arrogance, of telling Canadians that results matter more than process. Unlike the member for Brossard—Saint-Lambert, he was subtle. He did not boldly declare that the Liberals will not allow a question of privilege to interfere with their plans to reform Parliament in their own image and will trample all due process in their way. Instead, he insinuated that this topic is not worthy of Parliament's attention and that debating it was a waste of time. While I agree with him that it is a waste of time to debate a motion that custom dictates should pass, I can safely speak for my Conservative colleagues, and perhaps even for the NDP, in saying that we would end debate if the Liberals agreed to do what is always done with questions of privilege and send this matter to PROC. We are not the problem here.

To conclude, I urge my colleagues on the government benches to remember that they will be on this side of the aisle sooner or later. In fact, there are a number of members on the government side of this House who have spent time over here. There are even a few veterans who have been on both sides of this chamber, before the 42nd Parliament, who know full well just how outrageous the current situation is and that it is untenable. I will not embarrass them by calling them out. I do not want any of them to suffer or have conflict with their own colleagues and House officers for speaking out and speaking up for what is right.

I implore my Liberal colleagues who are new to this place, as I am, to seek the wisdom of their own colleagues who have experience here. I know that many of the experienced members on the backbenches know that what their House leader and her parliamentary secretary are doing is wrong. Parliamentarians of all stripes know that one should never do in government what one denounces in opposition. One should never set precedents for temporary partisan gain if it undermines parliamentary institutions and erodes the very foundations of our form of government. I encourage them to vote for this motion and its amendment and send this matter to PROC.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. My colleague gave a great speech about how the government is not respecting our democracy, yet in the midst of that, I believe we have fallen below quorum in this House, and I ask you to observe that.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

We now have quorum. Within the reasonable time it takes, understanding that members are sometimes close by the chamber, it appears that we do have quorum, so we will continue with questions and comments.

Questions and comments, the hon. parliamentary secretary to the government House leader .

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I will have to wait a moment for the member who gave the speech to reappear so I can put forward my question.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

The parliamentary secretary will know that we do not reference the absence or presence of a member in the House, who, in this case, was absent. I will ask the hon. member to carry on but to avoid those kinds of characterizations.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, can the member indicate when he believes the Conservatives will be ready for the vote?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, this whole debate has not been a very positive reflection on this institution. We know what has been going on at the procedure and House affairs committee for weeks now. We know what the member and the House leader have been trying to impose on this House. We merely ask that the government and the member respect this institution. This will eventually go to PROC and will be sorted out. Let us have some respect for the Standing Orders of this House.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

NDP

Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON

Mr. Speaker, something we have all talked about today is respect for the rules of this place. When we came here as parliamentarians, we were provided with the rules of the House. We all understand that these are the rules we all must govern ourselves by when we take our seats in the House, however long we sit here as members. We are being told by members on the opposite side that we cannot use those rules, that we cannot continue to debate in the House on a question of privilege, when clearly, many of us on this side of the House would like to add our voices to this very important debate.

Can the member speak to how he thinks Canadians and his constituents feel when they see this lack of respect in the House of Commons, where they sent him to represent them?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, the member makes excellent points, as she did in her speech before me.

Members of my constituency certainly expect that I have the ability to speak on their behalf, that debate will not be limited by the government, and especially that I have the ability to come to the House to vote on a budget, no less, on a confidence motion. I can only imagine what kind of consternation we would be going through had those two votes been decisive in maintaining the confidence or not in the government. This is an extremely important issue, and my constituents take it very seriously.

It is as if the government thinks we are an audience, that we are here to watch it govern, but we all won our seats, just as Liberals won their seats. We were elected by the people of our ridings to attend this House and to participate in debate, not to watch.

Business of SupplyRoutine Proceedings

1:10 p.m.

Waterloo Ontario

Liberal

Bardish Chagger LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister of Small Business and Tourism

Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the opposition day designated for Thursday, May 4 has been undesignated and will now take place on Monday, May 8.

The House resumed consideration of the motion, of the amendment, and of the amendment to the amendement.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, we need some reality in terms of what the member across the way said. He consistently calls it a budget confidence vote. What the member needs to realize is that what precipitated the members not having access was not a budget confidence vote. The Conservative Party wanted to go to orders of the day to interfere with the presentation of the national federal budget. That is why were having the vote. It was not a confidence vote, and it is important to recognize that. Why is it important to recognize that? It is because what we have witnessed over the last number of days on a matter of privilege is that the members of the Conservative Party have admitted that they are filibustering. If a matter of privilege is as important as we believe it is in the Liberal caucus, the Conservatives would recognize—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. My friend from Winnipeg North is very familiar with the rules. He should know, at a minimum, that a motion to move to the orders of the day is moved by the government, not the opposition. He is now saying somehow that the missing of the vote was less of a big deal because it was not that important a vote. That is the implication. It was a vote not moved by the opposition. It was a vote—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

I am certain these matters fall under the rubric of debate. I am sure members will have the opportunity to get to that in some other part of our discussion here today.

We will let the hon. parliamentary secretary finish his question. Then we will get on with questions and comments.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, the point is that when members stand and talk about something, they need to be consistent. There are many examples I could use that have not been factual. The opposition, yes, is working together, and I applaud that. It would appear that the NDP and the Conservatives are united in trying to filibuster. At least I have heard the Conservatives admit they are trying to filibuster on it. If they believe, as we believe, in unfettered access to the parliamentary precinct, why do they continue to debate this here and not send it to committee? Why not allow it to go to committee?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, that is somewhat disingenuous on the part of the parliamentary secretary when the Liberals themselves tried to prevent the question of privilege from even going to a vote and are now wondering why so many of us want to debate this question of privilege.

Setting that aside, if he listened carefully to my speech, he would have been reminded that the power to delay is one of the very limited powers an opposition party has. When a government behaves as outrageously, as ridiculously, and as disrespectfully to the institution of Parliament as the present government has, delay of the passage of bills is one of the only ways our opposition parties can draw attention to what is going on over here and to prevent it from doing so. We hope to evoke in the conscience of these members just how ridiculous the Liberals' conduct is so they will finally do the right thing.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Mr. Speaker, in light of the history with the present government, what happened in PROC this morning, the shutting down of debate, invoking closure, and removing opposition days, does my colleague have any confidence whatsoever that these issues will actually be dealt with at PROC?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, that is an excellent question. One can always hope things will prevail at PROC, that PROC will do the right thing, which is to immediately take on the question of privilege, abandon its agenda to ram through changes to the Standing Orders, and deal with the real question of privilege that prevented two elected members from voting.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, again, I want to be crystal clear, because it was a major theme of the member's comments, and accuracy is important. It is important we recognize that on budget day, the Conservative Party made a move to have us to go to orders of the day, thereby interrupting the budget.