Debates of May 2nd, 2017

Motion that debate be not further adjourned

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

The member seems to be concerned that he will not get his vote. Of course he will get his vote. That is why we are here. We will vote on this important issue. We will ensure that the committee has the ability to study this important issue.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

Organ grinder? That is nice.

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

Every member of Parliament should have unfettered access to this place. I have said that. Colleagues have said that. We can all agree.

[Tracey Ramsey, NDP, Essex, ON]

You had better learn the rules. The House leaders should know the rules.

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

I say once again, we support this going to committee. We support the amendment. We support the subamendment. It is exactly what the member is asking for. We are saying, let the committee do its important work. Why not let it move on to the committee, which could actually determine what took place?

The member seems to believe that he knows every single thing, but the committee can do very important work by studying what took place, and I think the committee should do--

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, Liberal, Anthony Rota]

I could not hear the hon. government House leader over the heckling. I hope members will keep it down a bit.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the government House leader says that she understands the issue. She says that she supports this going to PROC, and in fact, in her response to the member for Outremont, she just said that he will have his vote. The problem is, we should have been voting on this previously, but her government shut down and killed the first question of privilege.

Never before in Canadian parliamentary history, in nearly 150 years, has a government so blatantly killed a question of privilege before this House, as it did in this case.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, during the course of the intervention by my hon. colleague, the government House leader, I distinctly heard the leader of the New Democratic Party exclaim, “Where is the organ grinder?” I would like to invite him to clarify those comments.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, Liberal, Anthony Rota]

We will check Hansard and see if anyone else heard that, and maybe we will get back to the hon. member of the NDP.

The hon. member for Perth—Wellington, please continue.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I think the real question is who is pulling the strings. It is the PMO. It is the PMO that is choreographing this whole thing. In fact, the deputy Liberal whip tried a procedurally flimsy method to self-direct the committee's procedure, rather than taking the time-honoured precedent of having a motion referred by this House. This House is supreme in this matter.

The minister says that she wants to see this go to committee. Why did she kill the original motion?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the opposition might choose to play games with such an important issue. It is an issue we take very seriously. We are talking about access by a member of Parliament in the House of Commons. We are talking about a member possibly not being able to make it to the House to vote. Voting in this place is very important, and when members, regardless of the side they stand on, bring such important issues, we need to ensure that those issues are looked at, and the place to do that is at the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

The opposition has asked to make it a priority at PROC, and we agree. I wholeheartedly support members of Parliament having unfettered access to this place. It is their right and duty to represent their constituents in this place.

We are saying that we should let PROC do the work it needs to do. Let it study this important issue, and let us ensure that it does not happen again. Members of Parliament should have unfettered access to this place, and if that was not the case, we need to know why and we need to do something about it.

This government is about action, and we will take action to ensure that it does not ever happen again.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am in my fifth Parliament, and I cannot tell you how many times we have already dealt with this issue at PROC. We hear every time that it will not happen again, and yet it does.

We understand when there is an emergency security issue, particularly if we are dealing with important guests from another country. We get that. However, what we have asked, and what has been ignored, is that in the planning of these events, in the planning of anything extraordinary on the Hill, there be a plan to take into account the constitutional right, not a traditional right or a nice little habit we have but our constitutional right, to have access to this place. It is for the simple reason that if a notorious government wanted to usurp our democracy, all it would have to do is lock us in our offices and hold the vote. It is clear in the Constitution that every member of Parliament has unfettered access to this place.

We have been told that the security people will take these things into account in the future. To one degree or another, I would take them at their word. I expect that they will, but it is insufficient. That is why I am saying that I have been through this many times.

When the hon. government House leader wants to know why we are making a big deal about this, it is because this is the one opportunity we have on this side of the House to say that our rights are important. When those rights are abrogated time and time again, we finally get to the point when we say enough is enough.

The leader of my party, the member for Outremont, has reminded Canadians that a major institutional shift has happened. This place used to be sovereign to us. By “us” I do not mean me. I mean whoever has the honour of sitting in the seat for Hamilton Centre and every other riding here. It is no longer our security services through our Speaker and our Sergeant-at-Arms. At the end of the day, it is now the government's police service in our House of Commons. King Charles would love it.

Since the government now controls 100% of our security, and since the government House leader is saying we should send it to PROC so we can solve this, I want an absolute, 100% guarantee from the government, because it, not us, is now in control of security, that at the end of the work PROC does, this will not happen again. I want that assurance from the people who control the security people here, which is the government, through the commissioner of the RCMP. It is not us anymore. I want that guarantee. Otherwise, the Speaker can understand very clearly why we are doing what we are doing here today.

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the words that have come from the hon. member. I know that he has been in this place a long time. I appreciate his service. That is why I am saying that we can do things better in this place. I believe that this system can improve. It is a conversation and discussion I have wanted to have with all members, because I think experience matters. I think new voices matter. I think the public should be part of this conversation to ensure that we are working better in this place. That is exactly what I have been asking for.

When it comes to the issue we are discussing today, the facts about what happened are unclear. That is why PROC should study this issue. The member seems to be raising many other concerns. I would encourage him to also raise them at PROC so that we can revisit these issues to ensure that members of Parliament have unfettered access to this place.

I will repeat that this is something we take very seriously. Members of Parliament should have unfettered access to this place so they can do the important work they were elected to do. We committed to Canadians that their voices would be heard in this place. I sincerely believe that.

I believe that PROC needs to do this work. We know that in this place we can keep talking about it, but we will not be able to study it like the procedure and House affairs committee can. That is why I am saying that we should let the procedure and House affairs committee do the important work it is doing. When it comes to some of the rule changes, most likely under the previous government, when it comes to the security concerns, I say we should bring it up with PROC.

If we can make this place better, let us work together in the best interests of Canadians to make this House of Commons more effective, more transparent, and more productive.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity to sit on the PROC committee when we had to deal with this issue. Every member of this House recognizes the importance of unfettered access. This government, and particularly the government House leader, has been very clear that it needs to go before PROC. That is what has happened before.

PROC, as the minister has talked about, is best equipped to deal with this issue. My understanding, and I would ask the government House leader to make it perfectly clear to opposition members, is that the government supports this. We will be voting in favour of the subamendment and the amendment. We want to see it go to PROC. That is what has previously taken place.

PROC is the best place to resolve this issue. We have seen this dealt with in the past. Yesterday I was surprised to see members, even opposition members, standing and saying that this is a filibuster. I was surprised that members would use a filibuster on an issue that is so fundamentally important. I appreciate what the member across the way said about unfettered access. I saw the passion in his speech.

I, too, want to get this issue resolved. The best way to resolve it is to have it go to PROC. We are voting in favour of it. Maybe the government House leader could re-emphasize where the government is coming from and why it is we want to see this dealt with as quickly as possible.

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

Mr. Speaker, to be clear, this is an issue we take very seriously. All members of Parliament should have unfettered access to this place. We need to ensure that PROC is able to study it so that PROC can get to the bottom of it to figure out exactly what happened.

We know that the facts are unclear at the current time. PROC can actually study it and do the important work it needs to do to get to the bottom of the issue to ensure that it does not happen again.

I will repeat that all members of Parliament should have unfettered access to this place. The role and responsibility of a member of Parliament is central to the work we do here. We believe that when we are representing Canadians, and when all of us work together, we can actually do a better job of representing them. That is why I always encourage debate. I always encourage all members of Parliament to work better together.

We know that improvements can be made. Let us work together to ensure that at the end of the day, the same common goal each of us has is to represent our constituents and to represent our country. When we work better together, we will all succeed in that endeavour. That is why I will continue to encourage it.

When it comes to this issue, I will repeat that our government will be supporting that it be taken to PROC and that it be a priority at PROC. We will be supporting the subamendment to ensure that PROC reports back in June, just as the opposition has the asked. The government is supporting it. We support all members of Parliament having unfettered access to this place to do the important work all members of Parliament do.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am taking part in this discussion reluctantly because it is truly unprecedented. I find myself agreeing with my colleague from Hamilton Centre to a great degree because he and I spent years together in the Ontario Legislature and now we spend our time here in Canada's Parliament. In the 20-plus years that I have of parliamentary experience, I must say that this is an unprecedented debate and an unprecedented discussion that we could be curtailing the right of members.

The hon. House leader is correct: we have to take our parliamentary responsibilities seriously. She says “unfettered access” to Parliament, but why do we want access to Parliament? We want access to Parliament so that we can speak and we can vote. That is why we are here. We need access so we can vote, and I am glad she agrees, but we also need access to speak, including on matters of privilege. She asks, perhaps rhetorically, why we would want it to go to the committee. It is because members of the House of Commons want to speak on a matter of privilege. This is one of the most fundamental rights that we have as parliamentarians.

It reminds me of the Seinfeld episode when Jerry was trying to rent a car and he had difficulty getting his car rental done. He said to the car rental agent, “You know how to take the reservation; you just don't know how to hold the reservation”, which is the most important part of the reservation. The hon. members on the government side know how to talk about how we should have parliamentary rights; they just do not let us have those parliamentary rights, which is the most important part of parliamentary rights.

We are reasonable people. We want to have a discussion with the government on our parliamentary rights and privileges. We wish to have that discussion in a civilized manner that befits the importance of this institution. When will the member have a serious conversation with us—not a rhetorical conversation, not firing off letters to the opposition House leaders—so we can then have a resolution of these issues? Otherwise we continue to talk about these issues.

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I welcome a serious conversation. I was asking to have a serious conversation. What is unfortunate is that not all members are willing to have that serious conversation.

I do respect some of the work the hon. member has done in this place and in the provincial legislature and within his community. I agree that perhaps there are some members in this place who want to have a real conversation. Some of his own colleagues have admitted that they are filibustering on a question of privilege. We are talking about access to Parliament for members of Parliament. This is serious. This is something that we take seriously.

The member might feel that there is something unprecedented taking place. Unprecedented? We have had seven days of debate on a question of privilege when the government is saying let it go to PROC, let the committee study it, and let us get to the bottom of this. Let us ensure it does not happen again.

Unprecedented? The opposition filibustering a question of privilege is unprecedented. Every member of Parliament has a responsibility to work in this place together in the best interests of Canadians. That is what we are saying. We will continue to work in the best interests of Canadians. We want to all work better together. I am encouraging that conversation.

To provide confidence to the hon. member, every time I offer a conversation, my door is open. I am offering it in good faith, no differently from the discussion paper. It was offered in good faith.

We need all parties to be willing to have those tough conversations. We know there will be tough conversations. I welcome the opportunity to have them. I believe it is necessary.

When it comes to this question that we are talking about today, the government will be supporting the question of privilege because we believe members of Parliament should have unfettered access to this place as well as to the parliamentary precinct. We believe that PROC members should be studying this question. We agree with the amendment that it should be a priority for PROC. We agree with the subamendment that PROC should have to report back by June.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, Liberal, Anthony Rota]

It is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith the question necessary to dispose of the motion now before the House.

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, Liberal, Anthony Rota]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, Liberal, Anthony Rota]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, Liberal, Anthony Rota]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And five or more members having risen:

Call in the members.