Debates of Nov. 2nd, 2018

Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Order. I just want to remind the members of the opposition that they will have an opportunity to ask questions and make comments. I would ask them to stop heckling.

The hon. member for Oakville North—Burlington has the floor.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, as I was saying, the member for Beauce has called the Conservative Party of Canada “morally corrupt” and has said that Canadians need a new coherent Conservative option to vote for.

As just one recent example, the Standing Committee on the Status of Women recently completed a committee report that recommended:

That the Government of Canada ensure access to healing lodges for Indigenous female offenders with a medium security classification.

It also called for expanding the number of healing lodges.

The Conservative members of the committee did issue a dissenting report, however they made no mention of this recommendation, and in fact solely focused on social impact bonds. I would take from the dissenting report that the Conservatives tabled in the House that they agreed with our recommendation on access to healing lodges.

Meanwhile, other Conservative MPs, including members of the status of women committee, have spent the past month demonizing the use of healing lodges. The ability for Conservatives to speak out of both sides of their mouth on any given issue may make them feel nimble while debating in the Ottawa bubble, but it is very confusing to everyday Canadians who cannot tell if the Conservative Party actually stands for anything anymore.

While the Conservative Party continues to play games, trying to slow down any piece of legislation that would be good for Canada, good for Canadians and good for public safety, as Bill C-83 is, we on this side of the House remain focused squarely on governing this great country. That is why I will not be supporting the member's motion.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Madam Speaker, the member across from me said a few things that I would like to seek some clarification on.

One of the things that she said is that the Conservatives lack a moral compass, a “moral centre” was her term. This is interesting to me because I have had the opportunity to work with this member for a number of years now on the Standing Committee for the Status of Women.

There, I brought forward a motion in the spring with regard to ISIS militants being brought into Canada. There is proof that these individuals are being brought here by the Liberal government, that they are being moved into Toronto and that they have access to public transportation systems. These are men who have committed atrocious crimes overseas. They have kidnapped women, they have raped women and they have likely murdered women. Now they are here in Canada, engaging with the Canadian public.

I brought forward a motion at this committee, asking for a study to be done with regard to the impact that this decision might have on Yazidi women who are being brought over from northern Iraq in order to find a safe haven here in Canada.

Now, what did the committee say to this? The member opposite, when I brought forward the motion, said that she did not think this was a real issue. It does not deserve to be studied. Only weeks later, a Yazidi woman was on a bus in Toronto, and came face to face with her ISIS perpetrator. I would like the hon. member across from me to do the hon. thing, and actually admit that it is them, it is the government—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Unfortunately I do have to allow for other questions.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, I have no idea what that question has to do with the motion before us today on Bill C-83, but I am happy to respond to it.

Our government has brought over more than 1,200 Yazidi refugees. How many did the Conservatives bring over? Three. This side of the House is providing mental health services for those Yazidi refugees. What did the other side of the House do? It removed health services for refugees in Canada. Not only that—

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, I am rising on a point of order. The member across the way yelled across the floor to stop yelling, which is definitely out of order. Also, I am sitting right in front of the member and I am finding it very difficult to hear her because of the heckling by my colleagues across the way.

I would ask that the member who made the accusation be asked to apologize and that the Conservative members contain themselves so that we can hear what members have to say inside this House.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I want to remind the members that, yes, the heckling was starting up again. They may not like what they hear for an answer. The next time questions and comments come about, members can use that opportunity to stand up and ask questions and comments. I ask the official opposition to please not yell across and to please stop the heckling.

The hon. member for Oakville North—Burlington has a few seconds left to finish up her thought.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, instead of focusing on political rhetoric and gamesmanship, I am going to focus on what the government is doing to protect the safety of Canadians. I am extremely proud of what our government has done at the public safety committee.

I look forward to working with opposition members from the New Democratic Party and the Conservative Party as we study this bill. However, this motion is not in order. It is far beyond the scope of the bill.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Madam Speaker, my colleague's speech was going well until she indirectly called the Conservatives corrupt. Who got reprimanded by the Ethics Commissioner? The Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance. Who was behind the sponsorship scandal? The Liberals. Before my colleague accuses the Conservatives of being corrupt, I would advise her to tread carefully because her own party is not above reproach.

My colleague also said that we have not visited healing lodges. The Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security had a trip planned, but the Liberals decided that we would not go visit the healing lodges. Maybe it was because they did not want us to see how those places really operate. Maybe they did not want us to see the conditions in which these people are “incarcerated”.

I wonder if we could stop playing petty politics and look at the real issues. It does not matter if there were cases during the time of the Harper government where people may have ended up in healing lodges. The ministers in office at the time may not have been aware. On both our side and theirs, we still do not have the information.

If they do become aware, does my colleague believe that child murderers should be allowed to go there, instead of a federal penitentiary like Donnacona?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, I remind the hon. member that any member of Parliament can visit a prison or a healing lodge. That is what I have done. I took a trip to Edmonton to visit healing lodges and the Edmonton Institute for Women and Edmonton maximum-security. I also went to Saskatoon and visited a healing lodge there and the Regional Psychiatric Centre. I have been to Stony Mountain. None of those were with the public safety committee.

Therefore, if the hon. member wishes to visit those facilities, he is more than welcome to, as is any member of this House at any time.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Madam Speaker, I did visit a correctional facility, the Grand Valley Institution for Women. I saw the professionalism of the care that Correctional Services Canada provides as well as the goals around rehabilitation and education within the facility. I saw various levels of security within that institute of high-security, medium-security and lower-security areas. There were complex treatments being done by professionals and now we are being asked to intervene on their behalf, as if a member of Parliament has more skill in determining what the best care is for prisoners.

Could the hon. member comment on the role of members of Parliament in providing policy and guidance and the role of our Correctional Services Canada professionals in providing care?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, that is exactly what I was saying in my speech.

I think it is important to recognize that the commissioner of corrections has prepared a report. She has reviewed these decisions. It is with the Minister of Public Safety now. If there are changes to be made, it will be done in a reasoned and reasonable way, based on the information that the minister has received from the commissioner of corrections.

That is the right way to do things, rather than playing politics with a particular case.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Speaker, to my friend for Oakville North—Burlington, I think it is really important to distinguish between how individuals in this place act and their own moral compass, and the lack of morality that is found in every group of spin doctors to any political party in this country, where the goal is always to try to find divisions and try to score points.

In the 41st Parliament, when we debated mandatory minimums, I was always making the point to government members that there was absolutely no single empirical study that justified mandatory minimums. The response was always that it was a shame that member cares more about criminals than innocent victims. That is a narrative designed for fundraising and it has less to do with a lack of a moral compass than with the reality of too much power in the hands of political parties in this chamber, where we should be about our constituents and not about the next election.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, I am not sure if there was a question there. I think it was a comment.

I have the utmost respect for the hon. member across the way. I appreciate what she says, and she is absolutely right. I know I have been outspoken on some of these issues, including on mandatory minimums, because there is no evidence whatsoever that they reduce crime or make Canadians safer. I take her comments with all due respect and appreciate her intervention.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Madam Speaker, the member began her speech by suggesting that the opposition just brings unnecessary partisanship into all of its speeches, and then went on to castigate the motives of members and to talk about how the Conservatives have no moral compass and all of these kinds of things.

The purpose of this motion is to ensure that ministers take responsibility for their departments. That is what we are here to do, and if that is partisanship maybe we need a little more of it, not less. We need the government to start taking responsibility for its departments.

Does she not see the sense of irony in merely criticizing anyone who does not just lie down and agree with them that they are being unnecessarily partisan?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, the minister has taken responsibility. That is why he has asked for a report from the commissioner of corrections. What the hon. member is suggesting would be like the minister of fisheries going out to build wharves.

The Minister of Public Safety has absolutely taken responsibility. Corrections Canada has prepared a report. The minister is reviewing it. That is the right way we should be doing things, not a knee-jerk reaction because it is going to be able to raise fundraising dollars.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.]

Madam Speaker, I will pick up on the last question. The member tries to give the impression that the government has not done a good job on this file. I would like to make it very clear to those who might be following the debate just what the government has done. In order to appreciate what the government has done, one needs to have a better sense of what has been happening over the last 10 years.

I would emphasize what I believe is uniformly felt across all regions of our country. No one this country could every imagine how horrific the actions against little Tori were. I think I speak on behalf of anyone who has a heart and understands what a parent or family members have to go through mentally and physically when something horrific takes place against a child. I cannot imagine the pain and agony. In my heart, and I know I am not unique, all of us in the chamber extend our sympathies and empathy to the family. Having said that, sadly, it is not the first time that has happened in Canada.

I had the opportunity to ask a question, trying to provide a little history. A past Conservative administration decided that we should move from correctional facilities to healing centres, which would be part of the medium-security correctional facilities. I believe these healing centres were brought in a Conservative administration.

Indeed, let us fast forward to when Stephen Harper was prime minister. If we listen to the Conservatives, we would think this situation were truly unique, as if children have not been murdered in the past and murderers have not been put into healing centres in the past. We know that is not true. Even when Stephen Harper was prime minister, we know there were murderers in medium-security facilities who were transferred to healing centres, dozens of them. Not one, two or three, but literally dozens of murderers have gone into these healing centres. This was when Stephen Harper was prime minister.

We often hear about some of the worst crimes in society, such as terrorist acts, but what ranks very high for me are child murders. These as horrific and I want there to be consequences for that crime. So do my constituents and a vast majority, 90%-plus, of Canadians.

Do members know that child killers were sent to healing lodges while Stephen Harper was prime minister? If we follow the debate on this issue, we would never believe that to be the case, but that is the reality. Child murderers, even under Stephen Harper, went to healing lodges. We did not hear any Conservatives jump up at that time asking why it was happening. No one condemned Stephen Harper and the minister responsible. It was implied earlier that maybe they did not know about it. That excuse does not cut it.

I listen to many members of the opposition yell from their seats how horrific it is and how irresponsible we were by not taking action, as they point fingers at the member for Regina—Wascana, the Minister of Public Safety, for not taking action. Here is a reality check: Even though Stephen Harper and the Conservatives did not take any action, this minister and this government have taken the most appropriate action of all. We created a dialogue with the commissioner of corrections and asked the commissioner to review the policy and to come back to the government with some recommendations. That is the responsible approach to dealing with this issue.

I understand that yesterday the commissioner brought forward that report. I suspect that the minister, knowing he is one of the hardest working members in the chamber, will go through that report in great detail. I know this government as a whole understands and appreciates the very important role that our civil servants play in providing the services that we receive from Correctional Service Canada. We will factor in what those professionals have to say, because good government does that. Good government respects the fine work that our civil servants do for Canadians as a whole.

Knowing the Minister of Public Safety, his primary concern is the safety of Canadians. I believe that is the priority of this government. We have seen that in the legislation we debated, namely Bill C-83, which I will soon get to. For now, let us realize that unlike the former government under which we know that child murderers went to healing centres, we are looking at ways to improve government policy. This is one of the files that no doubt will be taken into great consideration as we try to ensure that we have the confidence of Canadians as we move forward on this.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member for Durham has a point of order.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Madam Speaker, I hate to interrupt my friend in full rhetorical flight, but he keeps referring to cases of child murderers at the time of the Harper government. This is germane to the current debate because after I asked him to table such cases, a minister stood and tabled documents that would have implied to many people watching this debate at home that those documents were in fact the cases I had asked him to table. They were not. They were answers to previously table questions. I would like the member who keeps referring to this to undertake to table the cases he mentioned.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I understand that this is a very important and very sensitive issue. The point that the member raised is not a point of order, but a point of debate. I would suggest that if he has questions to ask and comments to make, he do so during the questions and comments period.

I would ask other members of the official opposition and the government members not to yell back and forth during the debate so that we can allow the parliamentary secretary to finish his speech. He still has nine minutes and 25 seconds.

The hon. parliamentary secretary.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, my friend rose on a point of order. He wants to hear the names of other murderers.

Well, it was not that long ago when member after member of the Conservative caucus stood in the chamber, and in great detail, talked about Tori Stafford and that horrific incident, which revolted many Canadians. One of the reasons many members on this side of the House were so upset with members of the official opposition was because of the way they were dealing with this issue.

For the sake of argument, let us say that the Conservatives had a change of mind on policy. When in government, when Stephen Harper was the prime minister, there were child murderers going to healing lodges, and they did not oppose it then. However, let us say that they had a road to Damascus experience. Now they are in opposition, and now we want to cut them some slack, and they want to see a change in policy. Even with that, I do not believe it justifies the graphic descriptions that were being given day in and day out by the official opposition.

Now those members want more names of these child killers tabled. Is it so they can again look at these cases and reveal the graphic details? Is that what they want?

At the end of the day, this is about good governance and policy that addresses the issues Canadians truly care about. That is why the Commissioner of the Correctional Service of Canada was asked to do the job she did. As I have indicated, that report has now been brought to the attention of the minister responsible. I can assure members of this House that the report will be gone through and we will see something that can provide assurance to Canadians that we do have the victims in our hearts and that we are respectful of our civil servants. We believe that we need to have a policy that delivers on what the public expectations are of the government of the day.

I made reference to Bill C-83, and my colleague made reference to it in her speech. The reason I want to bring this up is that often, the Conservatives try to give the impression that they are about the victims, as if they are the ones who protect the interests of the victims. Well, we have seen legislation brought in by this government that enshrines victims' rights in legislation. We have seen other aspects that are important.

For example, my colleague made reference to audio tapes. There are many crimes that are so horrific that when a perpetrator in jail goes before a parole board, and the victim wants to attend the hearing, we would allow the victim to be provided an audio tape of what takes place, because one can only imagine what a victim goes through when sitting in that Parole Board hearing.

There is a different mentality between the Stephen Harper Conservatives and this government when it comes to justice. I will give the Conservatives that. We truly believe that there are certain actions the government can take that will ensure that we have fewer victims in the future. That is a reality that often escapes my Conservative friends across the way.

Bill C-83 is a good example of that. Within the bill are reforms to the legislation that would enable programming, such as mental health care services and others, to be made available to individuals leaving our prison system. That is important. Unlike the image the Conservatives try to give Canadians, that once people go to jail, each and every one of them is so bad that they should stay in jail forever, the reality is that a vast majority will come out and they will be in our communities. We need to ensure—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I hate to interrupt the member, however, it being 1:30 p.m. the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's Order Paper. The hon. parliamentary secretary will have three minutes the next time this motion comes to the floor of the House of Commons.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Given the unfortunate adjournment of the debate on the motion to authorize the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security to expand the scope of Bill C-83 in order to forbid those convicted of the murder of a child from serving any portion of their sentence in a healing lodge, given that the minister just announced in question period that he had received recommendations from the Commissioner of the Correctional Service of Canada relating to the transfer of Terri-Lynne McClintic from prison to a healing lodge in Saskatchewan and given that members in this place did not have the opportunity to vote on this very important motion, I believe it is incumbent to allow the House the opportunity to take a position on the motion and to give the public safety committee the required authority to consider any recommendations that the commissioner has to offer and to amend Bill C-83 accordingly.

To this effect, there have been consultations and I hope that should you seek it, Madam Speaker, you would find unanimous consent of the House for the following motion: That Motion No. 1082, listed on the Order Paper today under the rubric “Motions”, in the name of the member for Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, proposing to authorize the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security to expand the scope of Bill C-83, an act to amend the Corrections and Conditional Release Act and another act in order to forbid those convicted of the murder of a child from serving any portion of his or her sentence in a healing lodge be deemed adopted.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House to move the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.